Newt Gingrich Scaremongering, Howard Dean as Usual the Voice of Reason on Health-Care Reform
(h/t Heather)
It could have been "The Clash of the Titans," but Howard Dean was, as usual, a class act when he appeared this morning on This Week with Newt Gingrich to talk about health-care reform. If President Obama had put him in charge of selling the health reform effort, we probably wouldn't be having all these problems right now:
DEAN:I think putting $60 billion a year into the health insurance industry is insane. I really do.
And so you want a public option. Look, we've -- what the president wants to do is very straightforward. Sixty -- or roughly sixty -- fifty or sixty million Americans have what Newt has called socialized medicine or government-run health care. They're over -- over 65. They're Medicare. That's what Medicare is.
Now, what Obama is essentially saying is, "Let's give the choice of getting into a system like that or staying with what they have to the American people."
So if you're voting against having a public option, what you're voting against is something that 72 percent of Americans in two polls want, which is the choice. Most of them aren't going to sign up for the public option, but they think they should have the choice.
Why shouldn't they have the choice? Why should the health insurance companies have that choice?
STEPHANOPOULOS: What's the answer to that question?
GINGRICH: Well, first of all, the government option we're talking about -- let's look at where government runs the health system entirely. The Indian Health Service is a disaster. Medicaid is so corrupt and run so badly -- we just published a book at the Center for Health Transformation called "Stop Paying the Crooks," because our estimate is that government fraud between Medicare and Medicaid is between $70 billion and $120 billion a year.
Hey Newt, do you suppose - bear with me a minute here - do you think the Indian Health Service problems just might come from the deep and crippling cuts inflicted on them by people like you and your buddies? Nah, never mind.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Veterans care works pretty well.
GINGRICH: Veterans care is the one system that actually works reasonably well. But the others do not. I mean, Medicare is basically a private system with a government funding.
An amendment was offered in every committee to have the -- to have the members of Congress and their staff in any government option as a mandate. And if this is good enough for the American people, it's good enough for the politicians. In every committee, the Democrats voted no. Now, why is it they want to insist on a government-run system for -- for people other than the Congress, but the Congress and their staff would be exempt?
Second, it's not -- it's just, I think intellectually not honest to suggest that this is going to be a matter of choice. The way the bill in the House -- and we're talking about a specific bill -- the way the bill in the House would work, if your company didn't offer any insurance, they would pay an 8 percent tax on their personnel cost.
For most companies, that would be a net savings of 3 percent, 4 percent or 5 percent. One estimate by Lewin Associates (sic) is 131 million Americans will lose their private insurance and be pushed into a government plan.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Governor Dean, those arguments seem to have taken hold, at least in the Senate, where even Democrats say you're not...
DEAN: Look, let's be fair. Lewin Associates is owned by a health insurance company. So let's -- let's -- let's -- the CBO, which I think is a more reasonable organization, says 5 million or 10 million people are going to end up there.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Depends on the amount of subsidy...
(CROSSTALK)
DEAN: Second of all, what the speaker didn't tell you is, let's just suppose you get forced out of your employer-based system, which I think is unlikely, but let's suppose that you do. You've got a choice.
The government will pay your subsidy to either go into -- based on your income, either to go into the public option or a private option. Nobody is forcing you in to the public option.
Now, a third thing is that nobody talks about is this bill is terrific for small business, and the Blue Dogs made it a better bill, and I hope as it gets through, it gets even better.
Right now in the House bill, if you have a payroll, if you're a small business with a payroll of less than $500,000, you have no responsibility whatsoever to give your employees health insurance. That now becomes a subsidy based on your income, and then you can choose either a private or a public sector.
STEPHANOPOULOS: That's...
DEAN: This is -- this is choice. This is real choice.
STEPHANOPOULOS: That's in the House bills, but the Senate has made it pretty clear they're not going to include this public health insurance option, at least as contemplated in the House bill. The most they're going to get is co-ops...
(CROSSTALK)
DEAN: No, actually, the Senate Finance -- this has already passed four out of the five committees. The Senate Finance Committee has said that, not the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, but you need 60 votes to get it through.
DEAN: We need 51 votes.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So you're saying...
(CROSSTALK)
GINGRICH: But if you want to see why the -- why a substantial number of Americans are very frightened, that's a good example. The Senate rules on passing reconciliation were clearly designed for budget items.
If we're now going to try to rewrite 17 percent of the economy, life and death for every American, by pretending that massive health reform is a reconciliation item and ramming it through with 51 votes, first of all, I don't think -- I think a lot of Senate Democrats (inaudible) I think the idea of stripping the Senate of its ability as a Senate to operate with some sense of discretion and ramming through something on this size will go down very badly with many senators, will go down very badly with much of the country.
But I -- I talked to Senator Grassley as -- as late as yesterday, and he made quite clear that he believes there will be no government plan and there will be no rationing in any bill that the Senate passesand that he would certainly not in any way support that. And I think Grassley's very key to Republicans.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me follow up. Senator Baucus, the Democratic chair of the Finance Committee, seems to agree on that, and he's produced a draft that gets to 95 percent coverage, 94 percent, 95 percent coverage without a public option. Why wouldn't that be good enough?
DEAN: Let me just say, A, there's no rationing in any of these bills, so we don't have to worry about that. Secondly, 95 percent coverage is good. That's terrific. The problem is, you can't afford it unless you have a public option. There's no cost control on that. Again...
STEPHANOPOULOS: He says it would come in under $1 trillion.
DEAN: Well, the House is at $60 billion a year, and the Senate would be at $100 billion a year. I don't think -- look, here's the problem with -- this is why I think the public option is so important.
The fundamental problem is that Medicare has gone up around 2 percent over the rate of inflation. That's bad. But the health care -- the private sector has gone up at two-and-a-half times the rate of inflation for 30 years.
Our economy is uncompetitive because we have an employer-based health care system. Now, I'm not advocating getting rid of an employer-based health care system, because a lot of employers like it and people in it like it. But I am advocating giving people the same choice that Congress has.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I want to get to -- really quickly, because I want to get to another issue here...
GINGRICH: Well, I just want to say, this is one of the great tragedies of how we've approached this, this year. Cost control doesn't work. I had a major hospital tell me last week they would literally go bankrupt under the House plan, because if you apply the kind of cost control without real health reform, it doesn't work.
At the Center for Health Transformation, we've outlined health reform after health reform that would save hundreds of billions of dollars, but it's fundamentally different than the way Washington thinks. And it's -- it's very frustrating to watch people -- when you say cost control, you're either ripping off the hospitals, you're ripping off the doctors, or you're ripping off somebody because cost control defined by the government means somebody gets...
(CROSSTALK)
DEAN: Wait a minute. You -- you -- not you personally -- but the Republicans have had times over the last -- since the last time we tried this, was 15 years, where you had the president, the House, and the Senate, and nothing happened.
GINGRICH: And they failed. I agree.
DEAN: So, OK, so we've got to do something.
GINGRICH: I'm not defending that.
DEAN: We think this will work.
STEPHANOPOULOS: One of the other claims being made about the bill -- and it's related to cost control -- is an -- and opponents are spreading the idea that the president's plan will encourage euthanasia.
Most recently, Sarah Palin, on her Facebook page yesterday -- I think it was Friday night actually -- said that, "The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil."
Now, as you know, Mr. Speaker, the president called that outlandish. He said...
GINGRICH: But why -- why didn't you put up what Dr. Zeke Emanuel said? Because Dr. Zeke Emanuel, who's the chief adviser to the president and brother of the chief of staff, said in writing...
STEPHANOPOULOS: He's not the chief health care adviser. He's written three articles between 1996 and 2008 that include some of those phrases...
(CROSSTALK)
GINGRICH: ... standards.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Those phrases appear nowhere in the bill. The only thing...
GINGRICH: But...
STEPHANOPOULOS: ... but let me just explain what's in the bill and then get you to respond to that. The only thing in the bill is they would allow Medicare to pay for what they say is voluntary counseling on end-of-life issues.
GINGRICH: I think people are very concerned, when you start talking about cost controls, that a bureaucracy -- we don't -- you're asking us to trust the government. Now, I'm not talking about the Obama administration. I'm talking about the government. You're asking us to decide that we believe that the government is to be trusted.
We know people who have said routinely, well, you're going to have to make decisions. You're going to have to decide. Communal standards historically is a very dangerous concept.
STEPHANOPOULOS: It's not in the bill.
GINGRICH: But the bill's -- the bill's 1,000 pages of setting up mechanisms. It sets up 45 different agencies. It has all sorts of panels. You're asking us to trust turning power over to the government, when there clearly are people in America who believe in -- in establishing euthanasia, including selective standards.
DEAN: Well, look, this is something Newt and I agree on. I don't want somebody in between the doctor and the patient. I don't want the possibility of losing your health insurance. I don't want people setting standards or denying care. That's all what we have now under the private health insurance system. That's what happens.
Look, I've practiced -- I've practiced for 10 years. My wife is still practicing. Never once did I have a Medicare bureaucrat tell me what I could or couldn't do for a patient, but all the time we have bureaucrats from the insurance companies calling up and saying, "We're not going to cover this, and we're not going to pay for that, and we're denying coverage of that."
The system we have right now is broken. We need to fix it. I think giving the American people some choices about how to fix it makes sense.
Howard Dean looks good. Newt looks terrible, like a typical bloated out of shape fat cat conservative. Would you take health care advise from a doctor who looks like he's about to keep over from a heart attack?
When I was a teenager I went to a doctor who chainsmoked the entire time I was being checked up.
So I asked him, "Wouldn't tobacco taste better?"
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Don't tell me, a southern doctor correct?
Texan.
He was fat, waddled and sweated alot.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I figured as much.
My family physician actually had cigs in his shirt pocket visible under his lab coat. He advised my mother to quit. She laughed in face and later died of lung cancer.
I'm sure he met the same fate.
I wonder what it tastes like to smoke a chain?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Ask Larry Craig about smoking a pole.
Lech Walesa?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
has always been newt's only argument -- he's the very definition of "intellectually dishonest" (he loves that one, doesn't he)
I mean, let's look at just one of Newt's talking points:
"Medicaid is so corrupt and run so badly -- we just published a book at the Center for Health Transformation called 'Stop Paying the Crooks,' because our estimate is that government fraud between Medicare and Medicaid is between $70 billion and $120 billion a year."
The government fraud Newt describes isn't fraud committed by the government; rather, it's fraud committed AGAINST the government by PRIVATE companies. And it's not a function of lax government controls, because the same improper billing of government payor programs almost always applies to private insurance programs, except in those rare cases where a provider only uses a government payor.
Newt knows all of this, obviously, but repeats the talking point/lie because most Americans simply don't understand what he's talking about, and draw an erroneous conclusion when he mentions "fraud" and "government" in the same breath. Darrell Issa used this same point on Real Time this past Friday, and Bill Maher didn't know how to respond.
Frankly, Dean should have forced Newt to answer the question - "Newt, we're offering Medicare for anyone who wants it. You're telling me and George that Medicare isn't any good. If you say it's no good, the only conclusion we can draw is that you and the rest of the Republican party want to dismantle Medicare for America's seniors. Will you confirm that? You want to eliminate Medicare, don't you?"
I used to be a medical fraud investigator and there are clinics and doctors out there stealing MILLIONS of dollars a year. The scale of the fraud is unbelievable.
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
Dr. Dean can make more sense in two minutes than the entire right can make in six months.
Is Newt a doctor? Nope, so I'll defer to the man who is one and knows what the fu*k he's talking about.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
He served his wife divorce papers while she was hospitalized with cancer. That must have been uncomfortable.
If you don't have a conscience, I don't think you feel anything and I am convinced people like Newt either don't have a conscience or have figured out a way to nullify it.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
a sociopath.
All Republicans are sociopaths. It's genetic!
This is tearing me up. How in the world can we counter irrational arguments?
Do we maintain high standards and push the national dialogue toward a rational discussion? Doesn't work.
Do we engage the paranoids and give them credibility?
Do we fight like they fight?
If we fight like they fight we lose our integrity and moral superiority (Yeah I said it). We may win more elections but we destroy our moral compass.
Notice how I brought up morality without ever mentioning God?
a streetfight, for those that have gotten into them, isn't about being classy or not, it's about stopping freaks from kicking your ass.
when you're saddled down with all those notions of integrity, moral superiority, "democrats", well then you're likely too "heavy" to respond to the moment at hand and will probably get your ass kicked.
What is the solution? I expected more of a heavy hand from Rahm but I'm patient.
i suggest you look for new allies to start with, and then get ready to fight "dems" as much as repubs.
I've seen the donor lists for Blue Dogs.
Dem or Repub. That would be a good start for "change"
Don't expect ANYTHING from Rahm. He can't be trusted!
... has more to do with 'conceding before fighting' than anything else. Democrats didn't fight the spin on 'moral clarity' in regards to torture, they waffled ... and they LOST.
by kickin some of these rw asses...I get scolded.
I wanna use a mailed fist
But can't afford the postage
And we get refuges from Huffpro with all their bs, "Now, now play nice."
I think they're actually reichwingers
Because they depend on us following the Queensbury and Robert's rules so they can steamroll us.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I'm all freestyle and shit.
If ya go into a fight, ready to fight fair, you've already lost.
;)
starts with knowing what you're defending, and what you're not.
some "dems" don't get this...
they're just "protesting" whatever they can think of because they're angry a black man is president.
Allowing EDUCATION funding to fall behind in importance, plus the pathetic state of our corporate MEDIA has given us a nation of f*cking morons (and racists) too stoopid to see what is in their own best interests.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
Have you ever had a fight with a brother or sister? Ignorance is bliss. Where I come from anyone who ever said they are "ass kickers", need to install FEAR (such is the way of the Neocons) in order to maybe stop the perpetration who is about to kick one's ass. You are only as tough as your silence. More silence, deadlier ass kicker.
go after the people at the top, the ones in charge who have power. It works- remember how enraged the Yeller-Bellied-Dogs are when Progressives ran ads against them. Even the White House hollered and howled.
When I got to a town hall I shall bring a home-made poster picturing the CEO's of our Health Insurance Companies testifying before Congress that they'll continue to cancel insurance for people with serious illnesses any chance they can. My poster will say:
HERE IS YOUR DEATH PANEL!
I think I'll put the individual salaries of these people on the poster,too. Maybe squeeze amount of $ given to Congress. It might be a pretty big poster. Get one of those big 3 part poster boards Michaell's sells for kids to do "Science Projects".
Sheesh, its almost 7am here, I just got home from a Sleep Lab where they tried to test a CPAP machine on me. Only I couldn't sleep, I was awake the whole time. Dang. NOW I'm tired. Deeeep Sigh.
any photoshoppers out there?
I can take photos and I am a pro at shopping but that's about all I have to offer.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
I say send the idea to Media Matters, I'm sure they could whip one up toot-sweet,
Then turn it into billboards and commercials.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
do one with the death panel juxtaposed with this girl's story...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McGm00Mvakc
but eye meant faux toes hoppers
Remember this is not an all/nothing proposition, it is possible to state our case affirmatively and decisively without being weak or flaccid. On the other hand, we don't want to become the anarchist and confrontational GOP either, no sense in becoming the enemy we despise. There is a time to be conciliatory and a time to kick ass too. We need to be wise enough to employ the right approach at the right time.
Howard Dean did a good job stating the case without being pedantic or strident about it, his M.O. would be a good model to follow.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
Because the word "moral" has a common connotation that relates it to God, while "integrity" does not. "Ethics" does not automatically make one think of God, either. Perhaps changing the language would benefit our arguments and responses to them, and take religion out of their arsenal of weapons.
Newt has health care and that's all matters!
These wingnuts all say "guvment" like Gingrich.
Remember folks: Obama got rid of the good Dr., and replaced him with DLC republican-lite Clinton flunkies.
Sure glad I worked against corporate Hillary.
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
............another good dem who Rahm Emmanuel just hates, so............shaft Dr. Dean, the same way he shafted Gore, Kerry. I hate having this ZIONISTPIG have so much influence over O-bought-ma.
with her Sec. O' State skills either.
Kinda disappointing actually...despite her baggage, I thought she'd be kickin a bit more behind out there...
The VA system overall works well,
But there were horror stories a couple of years ago about VA hospitals,
Because they were essentially privately owned with government grants.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Dean's a doctor he knows about health care. What's Newt's credentials on this subject other than being a disgraced former speaker who handed big pharma and big insurance everything they asked for during his sorry reign as speaker of the house. Who gives a fuck what this corrupt, disgrace little troll has to say. Where's the Big Dog Clinton to hand this swarmy little toady fuck his ass on a silver platter again?
...orphanages doin'?
The Confederate Party loves them some disgraced pols.
Next up, Duke Cunningham explains how single-payer options would
kill the tooth fairy.
Well that's only because republicans hate fairies.
When it came time to clap your hands to safe Tinkerbell
They sat on their hands.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
.
Tinkerbell sounds Jewish. Can't have that.
Whose hotter?
http://www.barefoot-spring.net/barefoot/baref...
http://www.layoutstar.com/images/allbackgroun...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
He just eviscerated Newt. Plus being the driving force behind the 50 State Strategy? The Right can't get anywhere with him. Come on 44th, use this man!
I think he and Rahm have issues.
.
Again this is not about Health care this is about COMPETITION.
This is about loss of control for PROFITS.
Look at everything the Right has championed Chartered schools they have stripped funding for schools to almost zero to MAKE them fail yet test after test proves they offer NO better education then Public Schools.
Prisons system they have turned into Warehouses for the criminals of America urging Congress to pass all kind of Disproportionate laws, to justify the CORPORATE PRISON SYSTEM that can ONLY survive with prisoners (oops and strip people of the right to vote). Prisoners for PROFIT.
Pharmaceutical aid CANNOT participate in a FREE an OPEN market must have all FREE MARKET ideals REMOVED.
Medical proven over and over that given a choice of fair medical treatment with FOLLOW through the Insurance Industry caves they are WEAK, ineffective and have NO plan for on going Health care other then the bottom line and the line for refusal as long as it is PROFITABLE.
NOT one of these Clowns has stepped forward with a call for reason to listen to their side other then to put the those with serious Mental Intellect out their to Scare people. So let me chose.
One last point for CORPORATIONS remember privatizing the Military how many of these disgusting anal retentive Morons have stood up to take accountability for Iraq and Afghanistan? As usual Look at the Yellow streak down their back as they run and try to hide.
Mr Speaker a title for life even if disgraced .
Go Dr Dean
every time you throw a little mud , you lose a little ground .
We only need 51 votes right, so why the hell are we even listening to all these loons and cronies on healthcare reform. They wouldn't even defend their own mothers against the insurance companies or any company for the matter. Their only goal is to perpetuate the current system. If they're so afraid of the government, why don't they just quit working for the government. It's the same old stuff they say..."the government is inefficient and bad when we're not in charge."
to me is just the complete opposite.
http://texasadvancedirectivesblog.blogspot.co...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I just heard the President is going to attend some of these town hall meetings tomorrow and that scares me to death. I hope everyone there must pass through metal detectors and there are secret service men stationed all over the place.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
I got into an argument yesterday morning with some old bastard whilst having breakfast at the pub...and he was dropping every rw talking point and fear tactic in the book.
And before I started gettin pissed, I was able to calmly break each one down as he said them...but then he said...and I quote.."You're probably one of those people who thinks Bush flew the planes into the towers."
That's when I told him, and again I quote..." You're probably one of those people who thinks bush was the greatest president ever, and that the planet's only 6000 years old, and that your dear and fluffy lord rode around on friggin dinosaurs." That got people laughing who were overhearing our "conversation". And it pissed him right off...stupid old bastard, bringin a fuckin stupid parrot into a place where folks are hungover, and trying to have a nice quiet breakfast.
Probably not the most ideal way to frame a debate, but it suuuuure made me feel a HELL of a lot better.
Dinosaurs are certainly more manly than Jesus riding in on his ass.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Dr. PZ Meyers riding a Triceratops from the Creationist Museum:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/08/se...
'We, the People'............rimshot................hahahahahaha!
Why weren't you in church? Educated heathen.
He was at Our Lady of Nutritious Consumption.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
1.99 for two eggs 3 slabs O' bacon and home fries.
Can't beat that.
If I went inside a church, I'd burst into flames.
That sounds so good, especially on a Sunday morning and in the Keys.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
only thing that would make it better, is if it was on the bayside.
And he gave a damn fine sermon....
Good job liberalNmoderation!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I guess some pubs could be considered places of worship, lol!
Make you feel a "hell" of a lot better! Pun intended.
fell far short of whatever humor you thought it contained.
And you are entitled to it, as am I.
I thought it was pretty funny though.
I bet you find the comedy stylings of glenn beck to be knee slappin heeeelarious too.
Asshat.
Don't listen to glenn beck. Don't like talk radio. And asshat is pretty funny. Maybe you should be on the radio.
this beck guy, is ALSO on the teevee.
Asshat IS funny, actually, and maybe I SHOULD be on the radio..I definitely have the face for it.
Hell is not a pun. A pun requires a double meaning.
My favorite was a Stewart era punster, whose name eludes me. Someone asked him to do a pun.
"Pun what subject?" he answered (technically a barbarism).
Not getting it his interlocutor asked, "Upon the king."
Whereupon he responded, "The king can't be the subject, because the king's the king."
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
you elevated the debate by insulting?
Classy.
You signed on less than an hour ago and two of your comments are insulting to commentators here. Not a good way to make a good first impression.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
or to be an expert debating type person.
Your criticism is greatly appreciated, fuck you very much, you fuckin stupid troll bastard!
How's that for insults?
I didn't insult him, so much as I insulted his religion, and his politics.
And I was hungover, and grouchy, and his fuckin louder'n hell parrot was making me hostile.
Had he not been so old and fragile, I would have elevated the confrontation.
The term "grouchy" kinda reminded me of tyree. Has anyone heard from that grouchy yet endearing old dude lately?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
but now that ya mention it...he hasn't been around in eons...
Hopes he's ok.
Picked up some of your talking points.
THAT'd drive the ol' guy nuts!
Ha!!!
"Friggin' dinosaurs....friggin' dinosaurs....squawk!!!!!!"
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
LOL!
I can see it now. Page 8 in the local rag.
Outraged local man strangles parrot for debunking his faux noose talking points and calling his hero, beck, a flaming asshole.
Such substance. I'm enightened by your eloquence. I'm not a troll. This is the first blog I've ever commented on or joined.
I don't give a fuck what you think darylglen.
You have my undivided attention now, since you decided to start this exercise in shit talkin.
Ya better start takin notes kid, cause I'm just gettin started.
I ain't in the mood for your bullshit.
Ya can't take foul language? YOU should go elsewhere then Hoss.
I ain't tryin to piss you off fucktard.
I am just sick and tired of you trolls crying foul whenever you losers are exposed as such.
And I really could give a shit what you say about me, lol!
I say alot, when I feel like the person with whom I'm conversing is worth having a decent debate with, you sure as fuck ain't worth it.
I will enjoy it, moron, when they ask for it, and I'll do the same for anyone else regardless of size, age, or disposition, I'm an equal opportunity debunker of bullshit.
Define rational,
You're mostly digressing.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Rational= being able to defend your position because you have been educated on the material of which you speak.
Oh yeah, and also my definition of rational excludes the use of phrases such as "asshat", or any number of unnecessary profanity.
Asshat motherfuckin troll.
But here you admitted you weren't educated on the material of which you speak:
)O(
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 08:06 — ysbaddaden
So is that admission that you do not know?
reply
I never claimed I did.
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 08:10 — darylglen
But I am trying to cut through the bull on both sides. I am an Indy. Not Repub. Not Demo. But I was just curious as to who in here has ACTUALLY READ all of what is being debated.
I haven't tried to debate the matter itself, just wondered who in here has read it.
That's all.
I will be reading it over the next couple of weeks, and reading everything I can on all sides. If I relied on getting my info only from people who are one-sided, I'm not going to get the whole story.
________________________________________________
So by your own definition you're not rational.
And apprently reserve the right to yourself to express unfounded opinions.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
oh I dunno...lying through ones teeth?
Way to nail 'em YSB!
Look it up.
Congratulations on your good taste.
You weren't paying attention to his comments, the old dude apparently was talking where he didn't have an audience, wouldn't stop, and started the insulting with you probably believe bush flew the planes into the tower.
It's called a causal relationship.
I prefer casual.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
the local watering hole. You know, in FL, only "
important"impotent people bring their parrots to the bar. Can't get any any other way..."Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
good point fastfeat...one of the many unspoken rules of pub etiquette.
yes, we gotta tell them off to their silly faces.
One good thing is the MSM keeps that quote by Palin going, regarding the death committee or whatever the hell she called it. As long as that line stays alive, the stupid is open for all to see.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
public five times and it becomes the truth.
either of these two people currently sitting representatives in any state in the US? If not, why are they experts on anything, or knowing anything about any administration? There is supposed to be a big difference between being elected, and being "former". The political systems in nations worldwide seem to be right f*cked up. Those no longer in power of any kind, should not really know all the insider's info on any government. I know, kind of off topic, but shouldn't political parties offer their opinions from current elected reps, or are they all too busy having summer holidays?
Dr. Dean is a doctor so what he has to say on the subject of health seems to me to be pertinent.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
currently a practicing doctor P.O.P.?
I don't believe so but his wife still has her practice, so he would be aware of the problems with insurance companies due to his past experience and her present experience.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Did not know all that, so yep, he's valid. But what about all these other monkeys parading around in the media? You know, the voices for the pros and cons? The Kookie Roberts, the Rush Limpballs, and every other "face" of each political party? How would they know anything about what is currently going on in a system they are not a part of?
I doubt they have a clue about what's going on, but that mere fact doesn't stop them or slow down their mouth. They still get invited on to give their opinions as if they make a damned bit of difference to the rest of us.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
It is all the news that the corporations want you to hear. In terms of freedom-of-the-press, the US ranks #37. Does this answer your question, Canuck friend?
Now I have one. How hard is it to immigrate to Canada?
.
Neil Cavuto hosted an economic roundtable comprised of Hooters girls.
They probably were more rational about the health care debate than any other right wingers...
they usually overdose on the bikini/scantilly-clad women during Sweeps.
Gingrich says that Government health care is fraught with corruption..............but under "free" enterprise it is called profit.
Gingrich said that there are people in this country who support euthenazia(sp)........who? Name names you asshat.
'We, the People'............rimshot................hahahahahaha!
is like hiring a pumber who is against plumbing. You will only get backed up toilets.
I read that elsewhere but love the quote.
Seriously.
Sound like experts.
I've posted this on another post, but I'm really curious. How many of you on here have actually read the proposed bill?
Be honest.
I'm laying odds that it's less than 10% of you.
Yet you all speak as though you know the ins and outs of everything.
As I understand it there are four or five bills working their way through the fog that is the govt. If that is the case there is not a "proposed bill", but I am no expert.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
And obstructionist politics that impede democratic discussion.
What's the difference between bullshit opposition and just plain old opposition?
Same as you, false points
Especially when it's promoted by those who any change will affect their excessive profitability.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
But what false points have I made?
And another question for you. Would you please define "excessive profitability"?
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 07:16 — darylglen
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://workerscompzone.com/images/chart.jpg
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
It's called Ignoracio Elenchi.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Bullshit opposition is funded by corporate interests.
funded by corporations, and given marching orders by their GOP toadies.
Which one? They are all different.
But I'm talking about the one that's 1000 pages long and was attempted to be rushed through before summer break.
And which page or part of that particular one is upsetting to you? Tell us where we can find the items that bother you.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
And which pages has the death panels, and which pages will allow Downs's syndrome babies to die, and which pages will mandate abortion, and which pages allow for transsexual operations?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I was merely asking who had actually read the thing (or things).
I said nothing about death panels or any of the rest of that mess.
No that means you're asking the wrong people, you should be asking the scaremongers.
And you did not say whether you have read it or not.
And technically right now it's a mess of propositions and amendments awaiting formation into an actual policy, and while republicans keep getting invited to the table, despite their disinclination to negotiate in good faith, and instead run to every TV show that'll have them to complain of lack of bipartisanship, and organize essentially goon squads outside townhalls, where Congresspeople are fact gathering, and disrupt them.
These groups are financed by the very insurance companies that want the mandatory coverage part, but not new competition from the government, nor requirements to cover pre-existing conditions, thus setting up a schema to do to the nations healthcare what Wall Street and banks did to the nation's economy, with spiraling costs to the consumer, less benefits and denied care.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Here's what The White House is putting out to counter all the euthanasia hoo-hah:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/7/?e=1...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
to have sex changes.
As if I'd want one.
You ARE joking, right??
Even John Conyers said the only way to read H.R. 3200 (1000 pages) is with two lawyers!
Not one lawyer.....two!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
But in talking about both parties-Republicans and Democrats, how can there be an HONEST debate on something which mostly everyone hasn't even read?
I find it very interesting that both parties sound like experts, when nobody's read the thing.
That's like trying to put a car engine together without reading some sort of manual or instructions.
WTH are they protesting?
that a black man is prez.
You can't be serious.
It is interesting that people are linking viral videos of "unions out of control" when if you watch them it starts with a black SEIU guy laying in the street injured, an angry white crowd of teabaggers around him, fellow union members of at least several races trying to help him get up and keep back the crowd, and when one black union member lashes back, he's the only one arrested.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
that's the status-quo
the teabaggers,birthers,and now these pseudo-protestors.
they're all to a greater or lesser degree, upset that Obama's in charge, and they are scared. If these people REALLY cared about this country, where were they when bushco was running roughshod over the constitution? Oh waaaaait...that's right...IOKIYAR.
However, these latest groups of people invading and disrupting debate at the town hall meetings are shilling for the health insurance industry...and that, IMHO is far more dangerous than an unorganized bunch of racists...those people are fascists. Seriously.
They're brownshirting Democracy. And I will die before I see this country taken over by a bunch of corporate fascist assholes.
We STILL have a chance to take our country back from the corporatocracy...that's something that people from any political party should care about.
Unless they love that corporate cash, and have already sold their souls.
The white protestors are protesting a black man in the WH, and Darylglen the fact that you act increduluous is the frosting on the cake.
as the Fonze would say.
I think it was the Fonze.
That's what makes no sense to me.
Everyone is throwing their hands up on both sides, but NOBODY has even any bit of education as far as what is in these bills!!!!
So is that admission that you do not know?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
But I am trying to cut through the bull on both sides. I am an Indy. Not Repub. Not Demo. But I was just curious as to who in here has ACTUALLY READ all of what is being debated.
I haven't tried to debate the matter itself, just wondered who in here has read it.
That's all.
I will be reading it over the next couple of weeks, and reading everything I can on all sides. If I relied on getting my info only from people who are one-sided, I'm not going to get the whole story.
Being indy is a common claim of republicans trying to missrepresent their views, as well as claiming libertarianism.
And if you're "educated" on the issue you'd realize you are using the republican talking points.
So deductive reasoning would conclude that you are therefore a republican.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
The DMV? That's the only one I brought up!!! I haven't said anything else about it.
Other people have brought up points, but not me. I used to work for the Fed, and hated my personal experience with it. I would be afraid of the fed running healthcare, just from my own experience with government. I've worked state, county, and federal government. I ran for Clerk of the Court in 2000 as an Indy.
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