U.S. Bishops To Vote On Mandatory Feeding Of Vegetative Patients In Catholic Hospitals
By Susie Madrak Thursday Nov 12, 2009 2:00pmI got this via email yesterday, and gee, I hope the media covers this one (.pdf link to application for media credentials). Because there are all kinds of implications: Does the Catholic Church get to decide that, government health insurance will pay for the indefinite maintenance of someone in a persistent vegetative state because they've suddenly decided to up the ante?
And do Catholic hospital officials intend to override advance directives or medical powers of attorney? Remember, many people live in a community that has only a Catholic hospital. (While my father was dying from excruciatingly painful pancreatic cancer, he was denied a morphine drip by his Catholic pro-life doctor. The Saint said it might make dad might die a few hours sooner than he was "supposed" to, so this is more than a theoretical issue to me.)
I'd just like to remind everyone that the Catholic Church continues to make disapproving noises about unjust war and the death penalty, but I never see any public denouncements of the politicians who support them them. Instead, they throw their weight behind issues like this.
What would Jesus do? I'm guessing not this.
WASHINGTON-The full body of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) will take into account the most recent Catholic teaching on care for the chronically ill and dying when they vote on a proposed revision of the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services at their November 16-19 general assembly in Baltimore. The proposed revision states more definitively the moral obligation to provide medically assisted nutrition and hydration to patients in a "persistent vegetative state."
[...] "It would be useful to update the Ethical and Religious Directives by inclusion of references to these authoritative documents as well as byincorporation of some of their language and distinctions," said Bishop William Lori of Bridgeport, Connecticut, Chairman of the U.S. bishops' Committee on Doctrine. "It is particularly appropriate to do so since the recent clarifications by the Holy See have rendered untenable certain positions that have been defended by some Catholic ethicists."
The current Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services says, "There should be a presumption in favor of providing nutrition and hydration to all patients, including patients who require medically assisted nutrition and hydration, as long as this is of sufficient benefit to outweigh the burdens involved to the patient."
Along with other changes, the proposed revision says, "As a general rule, there is an obligation to provide patients with food and water, including medically assisted nutrition and hydration for those who cannot take food orally. This obligation extends to patients in chronic conditions (e.g., the 'persistent vegetative state') who can reasonably be expected to live indefinitely if given such care."
To be adopted, the proposed revision must be approved by a majority of bishops present and voting at the November meeting.
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There is nothing logical, responsible or moral about their position.
There is nothing "moral" about the catholic church at all.
They're screwing the poor as much as anyone else is.
This is just another White Penis Club - just like the re=Thug party and indeed - most of DC.
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"White Penis Club"
ROFL!
"White Circumcised Penis Club." lol!
I think Pope Radical 14th Century BeneDICKt is behind this reversion to worship of comatose meat sacks and starving the poor in order answer the question: "How many fertilized eggs dance on the head of a pin?"
threatened to no longer care for the homeless and poor in DC if DC backs the same sex marriage law. See article in the Washington Post written by Tim Craig and Michelle Boorstein. How Christian of them. Like I have already said, fuck them and the altar boys they rode in on.
Why are we allowing the Catholic Church to dictate to us how we will die? Isn't that a violation of our First Amendment right to freedom of religion? I say it's time to start taxing the holy hell (Pun totally intended) out of the Church until it either is brought to its knees or is so in the hole it can no longer function. either we, we win.
HELL yes!
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Pun intended there?
Thu, 11/12/2009 - 14:05 — Adam-kun
http://img2.allposters.com/images/BRGPOD/2025...
http://www.kheper.net/topics/Kabbalah/Luriani...
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/cab/img/fig01...
they must be taken seriously....
A bunch of cross-dressing guys telling the rest of the world - ESPECIALLY women - what they can and can't do?
What sane, intelligent person could take that seriously?
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Transgender and transexual are people too. Others have a blast just dressin' up.
Not really all that odd.
I don't think Trittydi's was an anti-trans comment. The point, I believe, was that a collection of maladjusted elderly male virgins who dress up in fancy robes have the audacity to tell everyone else that they must live conventional, non-trans, non-gay, married lives or suffer the penalties of eternal torture.
That is hard to take seriously.
It's enough that they dress up in religious garb - for me. It's more the religion part that makes me not take them seriously.
:)
And only through the lens of unquestioning faith could someone be led to take such craziness seriously.
....religion should not be taken seriously.
http://www.subgenius.com/
It's impossible not to laugh at them. They take themselves WAY too seriously - and they want the rest of the world to be cowed by their power.
Been there - done that.
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I can't take your statement seriously with that "I believe" bit in there.
For me it's the virgin part. As in, Bwaaaaaahahahah
What's odd about them is they're hypocritical about it.
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....yet I can't my husband to do it - DARN!
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Who doesn't look marvelous in a papal hat?
lol
suffer boy for ur' sins you sinner. Suffer!
The catholic archdiocese of DC declared today that if the law for gay civil unions passed - they would not be able to offer any services to the poor and indigent in DC as a consequence.
That's blackmail and they can't be allowed to get away with it. The catholic church is increasingly flexing their political muscles - and perhaps their tax free status needs to be reviewed.
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why my comment appeared here. Sorry TD
do gay civil unions in DC affect the Catholic church there in any way shape or form? That is totally wrong and people need to wise up about what their "church" really is.
The appropriate response to that threat is "Okay then. You have no business in our city. If you aren't gone by X day, we will be serving you with an itemized bill for the past X years."
The Catholic Church says that they'll quit doing business in the city if we support liberty and equality? Okay. Bye bye.
It's a case of "convert or die."
But I find it interesting that this EVIL CATHOLIC CHURCH has been helping the community in the first place! There's nothing good about Catholics! Don't they just want everyone who is not a pedophile/man/heterosexual to up and die? Aren't they in the streets banging on gay folks' doors and beating them with crowbars! The Catholic Church has never done anything in the history of the world to help people who aren't Catholic. They make you convert before they feed you, if you're parched they won't give you water unless you give the priest a bj, and they all smell like rotten onions and potatoes with a side of ass juice. (/snark)
"Charity" means you don't HAVE to do something but you want to, so the Catholic Church doesn't owe non-Catholics anything in terms of aid. But don't worry your pretty little head, CC of DC isn't going to stop helping people, even if it means they have to deal with gay folks. The Catholic men and women on the ground won't let it happen. We're not all evil green monsters you like to think we are.
They get billions in government funding for their charities and use government property. Time to pull the plug and redirect funding to a secular organization who's mission is to serve the poor. Not blackmail judges and legislators.
anyone afraid to die? If so why?
sack of bones and flesh to lug around.
It's not the death, it's the dying. I prefer sudden cardiac arrest.
I don't know but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have inserted a feeding tube.
just raises them from the dead.
He needs that zombie army for later on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJEySrDerj0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIWsMKZt3Eg
is to look forward to the day you can pass on to the "other side" and hang out with the Lord?
Why on Earth would the Catholic church want to postpone that day?
Could it possibly be to generate more revenue streams for their hospitals??
The Catholic church doesn't seem to mind it when their priests harm little boys...why should they mind if doctors and nurses are forced to harm people whose lives are, for all intents and purposes, over???
No faith.
Just Terry Schaivo part two?
The end of life decisions are tough enough for families, doctors and the infirmed.
The church - ANY church should stay out of the conversation unless they are asked for their opinion.
and shove a feeding tube down her throat....NOW!
we have failed as a society when we let dead people die.
not let them get their mitts on you. Make sure someone has a power of attorney should you become incapacitated. That person can move you to whatever facility they like.
The paperwork is cheap and can be found online.
We did it all a year or two ago. It gives me peace of mind.
as servants to our own physical body have the basics covered.
Perhaps besides the organ donations cards we have attached to our drivers licenses we should all have a directive that says, "DO NOT ALLOW ANY AMBULANCE TO TAKE ME TO ANY CATHOLIC HOSPITAL!!!!"
Oh, how I wish we lived in a non-religious world. I know I won't get my wish. Oh well.
"I wish we lived in a non-religious world."
Actually the world is non-religious, it is the fricken people that have the religious stick up the waazoo.
The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
-----Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954
I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-----letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish."
Albert Einstein
important in the bigger scheme of infinite creation. Once you realize that then peace comes.
It is so much more miraculous that we are living on his little rock for a short time. While in the larger sense we are and always will be part of this universe - made of stardust and broken down to atoms again we are eternal.
No need for any entity to make that awsome!
So many of the more simple thinkers need to really really believe in some kind of mythology because facing reality has all kinds of strings attached.
My version:
"(Sigh)So many Christians, so few lions....."
... originally included a multiplier in his equation on general relatively to adjust for an otherwise expanding universe and the also implied "Big Bang."
He was persuaded to remove the multiplier, thus mathematically proving the Big Bang, by, among others, Fr. Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest, scientist, and teacher.
Susie,
My heart goes out to you and your father. Your situation is just one reason why I refuse to live in certain states. Although, I keep wondering if I should just move to someplace more sane...
... but I fear that the US will soon try to bring democracy to Sweden and the rest of the socialist world that takes care of its citizens.
They must all think they are going to hell or something.
for Paradise
one except Catholics will be allowed into Heaven, as all others are unforgivable sinners. But they also said that thinking of sinning is the same as actually doing the deed. There is no winning with these people--that's what became clear to me at a young age.
Yup, I remember thinking...O.K. they (the adults) admitted the truth about santa clause, easter bunny, and the tooth fairy....but how old do I need to get before they tell me/admit that this jebus/god/bible/church/religion shit is just a big joke too?!
Give me a chance to find the reference.
Got it.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Is Controlled by Federal Law and Catholic Hospitals must follow those laws or be taken to court and possibly lose their licences.
Catholic Hospitals do want anyone to suffer with pain. But they must also remain responsible to Legal Issues as well.
the slippery slope of evil, the options for more evil open up to you.
"persistent vegetative state"
If you are a conservative and prefer the above statement to oh let's say..."brain death"? would that make you,as a conservative,guilty of "political correctness"?Or is PC something just Liberals are afflicted by?
since conservatism is virtually indistinguishable from a persistent vegetative state.
They have the right to confer with each other.
They have the right to come up with a consensus from their org.
They certainly have the right to voice their opinion.
They don't have the right to write law.
But this is more than all of this. It's about money.
Donations in the Catholic church are down.
It's about how much can these hospitals afford to spend on a person who will never wake up or come into a state of consciousness.
It's all about money. And we all know how churches love money.
I wouldn't be surprised to see these Bishops come up with something controversial in their own church . And this goes for all churches in the U.S.
the stolen artwork they hide at the Vatican in order to bribe DC politicians just like all of the other big businesses do.
Protect yourself as much as possible by not allowing anything to chance if you should ever find yourself in a vegetative state or any other where you cannot make sound decisions for yourself. Don't only think about yourself, but those family members around you that might have to make tough decisions.
.
in your living will that if you are rendered unconscious you are not to be kept in a Catholic hospital and if you are conscious and in need of an ambulance instruct any emergency personnel that you refuse to be taken to a Catholic hospital, especially if you are pregnant. I know in some regions this is not an option, but in others it is.
100 million for disaster relief--I want it cancelled. Give the money to the Red Cross. How much do they get in local communities? Start calling people. Call your Senators and tell them we want the money back.
St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Italian cardinal.
"The Pope may act outside the law, above the law, and against the law."
"Freedom of belief is pernicious. It is nothing but the freedom to be wrong."
-----------------------------------------------------
Pope Gregory VI (d. 1048). Purchased the papacy from his 20year-old godson, Pope Benedict IX, who wanted to abdicate so he could marry.
"From the polluted fountain [of] that absurd and erroneous doctrine, or rather raving, which claims and defends liberty of conscience for everyone ... comes, in a word, the worst plague of all—liberty of opinions and free speech."
From a letter to President Carter:
Days before his murder by Death Squad, to a reporter:
Archbishop Oscar Romero, El Salvador
Assassinated March 24, 1980
... you win. ;)
Now we got this guy as pope. What's next? Please don't tell me it's a former Nazi.... :(
It is misrepresentation to interpret the withdrawal of feeding in the same way as turning off life support.
Life support is not just feeding, it's everything.
How ethical is it to allow a patient, whatever their state may be, to literally starve to death?
!
If brain dead - you're a good organ donor or an oversized very messy paperweight.
^~^
I guess that boils down to a personal decision. Or, a family matter.
No other outside sources should interfere.
My own opinion on that would be, it depends on the patient.
Obviously if the patient will recover, you feed them.
If the patient will not recover, will stay in a vegetative state,or, will never be able to move any limbs,speak,or think. If it were me? Let me go.
Which is the whole problem with our Medical System to begin with.
The Medical Establishment is perfectly happy to keep you alive for as long as it takes for nice sum of money.
It would be interesting to see how many poor, homeless people that enter a "permanent vegetative state" the Catholic Church is willing to "feed" without getting paid for it.
Good point, which is why Moonsha's comment above about a living will becomes important.
I feel you can never know what's going on inside someone's mind.
Thank you for taking the comment seriously.
I trust the derisive commenters above have left instructions to their families that the be allowed to die. Mind you, people who have starved to death don't make very good organ donors.
Harvesting human organs? Who? For how long?
ugly business. But it shouldn't be.
Make the default choice that unless someone has instructions otherwise - organ donation is automatic. That makes organs available so it kills the blackmarket (sorry about the pun)
But what about those who do not wish to donate their organs but didn't fill out the forms.
I see what you're saying. And I do somewhat agree with you. But , we must respect those peoples wishes too. I mean, we're talkin death here. People will be people. They'll procrastinate.
Not always so personal. Not always just a family matter. When the money is enormous and somebody has to pay for it, it becomes a society issue.
It really comes down to what "recover" means. The common argument is that "sometimes" patients in a persistent vegetative state regain consciousness. But sometimes we even encourage people who are perfectly conscious to die. I took a medical ethics course many years ago that had us do a Saturday field trip to a major U.S. medical center and tour the intensive care wards. Probably the most tragic case was a guy who had smoked his lungs out, was perfectly conscious, had a sedentary intellectual trade, and didn't want to be shut down, but the insurance money was running out and money wasn't coming in to pay the $500/day (_many_ years ago) or even the $400/day it would have cost to warehouse him. The less-than-happy "solution" was to have a pastor work on him to understand his situation and accept that he had to be turned off.
Don't think it doesn't happen regularly. In a country where tens of thousands of people die because we can't be bothered whether they have ANY health care, the justification for spending literally hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to warehouse a vegetable had better be a strong justification. Don't tell me it's "sanctity of life" when we let so many die because they have NOTHING.
16 mins ago
NEW YORK – Federal prosecutors Thursday took steps to seize four U.S. mosques and a Fifth Avenue skyscraper owned by a nonprofit Muslim organization long suspected of being secretly controlled by the Iranian government.
We checked it with the Pope he thinks its just okay!
the constitution states 'congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" - i believe this means congress shall not establish a state religion.
the reason i believe this is the intent of the constitution is because back in 1636 roger williams was run out of massachusetts for not adhering to that colonies particular brand of insanity.
my contention is that granting tax exempt status to any religion violates separation of church and state.
how did we get from no state religion, to tax exempt status?
the TV preachers are basically running businesses!
now the catholics want to run our health care!
I don't agree with abortion, but it is not my business! or my body!
abortion is a legal medical procedure!
time to stand up to the worlds religions and tell them to butt out!
and pay taxes like the rest of us!
that the tax exempt status originally referred only to property tax, and only that property on which the "house of worship" stood. It's been taken WAY too far!
or, once again, will someone be speaking on His behalf as He could not be in attendance
god has left the building
Really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVwrrkt22Ag
What is the dealio with the "youth in Asia" . . .
*rimshot*
will they deny them forced food?
"To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself."
Sophy Burnham
"I feel that everyone has a right to be insane.... If they want religious schools, build them! [just] do not ask for the land to be tax-free.... Do not ask for [government] money for teacher's salaries, or more books, or anything else. Just go ahead and do your thing.... just exactly the same as if you were a nudist. Somebody doesn't get a tax break for being a Mason, or whatever they're interested in."
"The 'Virgin' Mary should get a posthumous medal for telling the biggest goddamn lie that was ever told.... I'm sure she played around as much as I have."
Hey, let them do what they want. Just send the Catholic church the bill.
The snafu with the Stupak amendment was also extortion. It is time to call those priests on their crap and wean ourselves off women and gays being thrown under the religious zealot’s bus for the well being of the group.
I hope that guy dies in similar pain and similar circumstances.
who are afflicted with the need for people to suffer. Suffering to some is the ultimate spiritual high. You can then understand the suffering of Christ. It is twisted and sick, but it is their thinking and they have no problem imposing it on others. They are truly evil.
they do everything in their power to avoid any suffering for themselves. Yes, they are evil. They are doing Satan's work clothed in the disguise of religion.
quality of life is what we should focus on instead of their stubborn insistence on quantity of life? What is the point of living 120 years if those 120 years are filled with suffering and little else?
Now the Catholic church is prolonging the suffering of the terminally ill, and selfishly making the lives of the hungry and homeless that much harder just because it burns them up to see gay couples happy. What happened to alleviating the suffering of others?
Shame on them!
That said, can we stop beating up on the laity? We are not all pedophiles, misogynists, Republicans, and anti-abortionists. Contrary to popular thought, we do not have to agree with everything the Church says or does to be a full member of it. Papal Infallibility is not irrevocable dogma, and it doesn't extend to the Bishops of this or any other country. We don't "take orders" from our Bishops. They say what they say, and we go on loving our gay friends and family, voting for pro-choice candidates, and having sex before marriage, and our women are strong and do not take a subservient role to our men. The women who do want to be priests go Episcopalian and that's great, God bless 'em. But many modern US Catholics are not and will not be defined by the political leanings of our leaders. My priest happened to vote for Obama along with me and most of my close faith community, against the explicit wishes of our Bishop. Wishes are not orders though, and my priest is still going strong.
I'm a liberal Catholic woman. I don't agree with mandatory feeding of vegetative patients in any hospital because I see that as not God's will but Man's, even if that Man is Catholic. I don't believe that many in my Church community would deny relief to a dying person in pain. Sure, there are some, and they are vocal, and you all probably know one or a few really nasty ones, so spare me your anecdotes. There is a contingent of zealots in any religion, anti-religion, organization, political party, any large community of people that share a common belief.
I'm not defending this move by the US Bishops, I fully disagree with it. And you know what? I agree, if that goes through, we should lose our tax exempt status. It would only be fair. I am just so sad to see such prejudice on this and other "liberal" sites when it comes to my and other faiths. Religion is not evil, people who use religion to justify their own ills is where the problem is. Religion can be a good and beneficial vehicle for self-improvement and loving community, or it can be a whipping post for people like Bill Maher to assign as the cause of every ounce of pain and suffering in the world. The truth is that it's somewhere in between the two, but I'd say way closer to the first.
STILL NOT EXCUSING WHAT THE BISHOPS ARE DOING, I would like to ask that you all remember that every priest is not a pedophile and if a person is Catholic they are not inherently hateful. Our Church is of God but led by Man, and Man is entirely fallible and with sin. My faith is not perfect, but to say we are all bad people is wildly hyperbolic and sad.
dictates of their church leadership often, both in their personal lives and when the go to their voting booths. But there's no getting around the fact that the higher ranks of your church leadership are theocratically minded and they never pass up an opportunity to hack away at the rights of certain groups with their influence, power, and money.
I'm replying to you as a former evangelical myself. My break with evangelism became finalized last year when Evangelicals joined with Catholics, Mormons, and other religious groups joined together to deprive GLBT Californians their rights to marry who they choose. If my church is going to support the taking away of people's civil and human rights, then I was going to have to decline to continue to offer my emotional, physical, and financial support to the church, the denomination, or any other outlet that is working to deny people of their human rights. And I did. I wasn't going to be able to live with myself any other way, and if I didn't make that move, I was going to have to learn to live with, and be understand of, people's anger at Evangelicals. Which people have every right to.
I just think it's not right to assign every wrong idea of the Catholic hierarchy to all of its members. You obviously think that I support their political leanings and I don't and IF I don't I should leave. It's pretty arrogant to tell me my beliefs and evangelize to me to shun my faith, which has little to nothing to do with the hierarchy's politics. You're just as bad as the people you left behind. I have worked for the LGBT (sic) community in getting civil rights for years, so you can keep your sanctimony for someone who is totally naive about the world.
Did you agree with everything George Bush did? If not, why didn't you move to Canada? The world ain't black and white.
already believe Susie would lie about something like this, so I figure there's not much else to be said.
You know, I was a political liberal my entire time in evangelicism. I was trying to find some common ground with you while at the same time trying to say that I don't hold people's angry comments about evangelicals against them, because evangelical leaders, with the financial, emotional, physical, and political support of the laity, have done a lot of harm.
But, I can see now that it is more comfortable for you to believe Susie is a liar, and to direct to me some of the same type of comments you wish people would quit making about Catholics.
I don't think I've misunderstood that you don't approve of my liberal presence in the Catholic Church. Good thing your approval of my life doesn't mean much.
And yes, people lie to justify their prejudices. And sometimes they pull on heartstrings to do it. Looks like it worked on you.
I direct these comments to you because in trying to mark common ground, you presented yourself as the shining example of what to do if you're conflicted in your faith. My faith is stronger than a disagreement with a few people that share it. You CAN be a good liberal and a good Catholic, and I respect but am sorry you don't seem to believe that.
And AGAIN you tell me what I should feel! I'm not supposed to be bothered by what people say about Catholics. Well I am, because there's a lot of lies in these comments about what all Catholics do/don't believe/support, and I am a defender of my FAITH, not my BISHOP.
But I will simply say you've ironically found a really horrible and unkind way to defend your faith. We weren't in the room with Susie and her family and that doctor. You can't really know for sure either way, but you still saw fit to call her a liar. I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.
And now I'll just shut up.
anyone here is painting with such a large brush as to vilify every Catholic . . . only those very vocal, self-serving, judgmental leaders of the church.
Coulda fooled me.
I grew up a Catholic, and I saw how much money was raised in just my church every Sunday.
And that money that YOU give to the church goes to support the policies you don't agree with - AND hurts countless people because of the church leadership's arrogance.
So if you don't agree with the church, DON'T GIVE THE CHURCH MONEY TO PERPETUATE ITS MESSAGE OF HATE!!
Needless to say, I left that evil institution years ago because I could not support its policies, not because I thought the laity was evil. The leaders are.
That's easy. I don't have money, so I don't give it, and even if I had it, I wouldn't. Stewardship in the Church means time, talent, and/or treasure, and I give the first two, which I believe helps community more than money ever can.
There are people who give the Church money with stipulations on where it is directed. I suggest more people in my Church do that.
Many here are recovering Catholics, apparently. I am happy you find comfort and solace in the Catholic Church. I find mine elsewhere. I do not think anyone said that all Catholics are bad people. The institution is corrupt. Just like the US government
"(While my father was dying from excruciatingly painful pancreatic cancer, he was denied a morphine drip by his Catholic pro-life doctor. The Saint said it might make dad might die a few hours sooner than he was "supposed" to, so this is more than a theoretical issue to me.)"
Please tell me you took action and got your father pain relief.
as painful and emotional as the death of a parent?
I am totally empathetic of a dying parent, but she is either lying about the motives of the doctor or assigning a false causal relationship, i.e., lying. I call it like I see it.
[You are calling the author of this piece a liar. You have no way of proving your claim, since, I'll assume you were not present. This is abuse under the TOS-Sitemonitor]
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[end of disgust]
I suspect the doctor was horribly confused. Most Catholics are unaware of what they "believe," and the Terri Shiavo hysteria didn't serve to clarify things at all.
And it isn't me.
I never lie
Nor laid.
Thu, 11/12/2009 - 16:57 — katie
The judgment of causal relationships is one of the first things to go when one is under extreme stress and duress.
And since the actus reus, and the mens rea lack concurrence (even though lying is not a legal concept that I'm aware of outside of perjury), logically if not legally one can't say it's lying in such a situation.
And rhetorically it's claiming false authority in a situation which one is separate and distant from, to judge whose lying and who is not in such a situation, and it is almost as flagrant as frist diagnosing Shiavo from specially shot videos from his comfy office in Congress.
I accept this argument. I retract the word "lying." I think Ms. Madrak though paints an awfully generalizing picture of Catholic doctors with this anecdote insinuating that most Catholic doctors would act the same way in this situation. If he used that defense of his actions, that was his choice to make, and to blame the Church's teaching for it and accepting and promoting "bad Catholic ideas" as the motive for a horrible individual doctor is prejudicial on all Catholics in the medical field.
I'm sorry I got riled up. Every time I see something about Catholics on C&L I know that there's going to be Catholic-bashing and a load of misinformation spread in the comments like these, and it really pissed me off that Ms. Madrak fueled that unfair fire. Liberals like to believe they're tolerant and then I see a bunch of them acting like ideologues who can judge all people of one religion to fit their preconceived notions.
So the doctor was lying when he explained his motives to me? And the public papers he's written on euthanasia and end-of-life care - those were lies, too?
I waited around my dad's room, because I knew he only came in late at night when we weren't there. I caught him and backed the doctor up against the wall and yelled at him about his playing God with my father. He finally agreed to order morphine.
When I came in the next morning, he'd ordered ORAL morphine "upon request of the patient." (My dad was in and out of consciousness. No way could he ask for anything.)
So I told the nurse to get me the doctor on the phone; he then refused to talk to me, so they called his on-call assistant. That guy didn't want to override the other doctor's orders, but as soon as I explained to him that I'd just seen a resuscitation order that I knew for a fact my mother and father didn't sign, and that potential forgery presented a legal problem, his whole attitude changed and he ordered the morphine.
I loved my dad. It was the last thing I got to do for him.
I wasn't going to believe that you just went along with it.There is something very sick about any Doctor who lets a terminal patient in pain suffer.They should be removed from public service.
While my father was dying from excruciatingly painful pancreatic cancer, he was denied a morphine drip by his Catholic pro-life doctor. The Saint said it might make dad might die a few hours sooner than he was "supposed" to, so this is more than a theoretical issue to me.
Susie, that is NOT the Catholic Church's position/teaching AT ALL.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
You think I don't know that? I've written about this before, because those were sensible guidelines.
My father's doctor was a loose cannon from the right wing of the Church - but he's still honored by the Church. Hell, he was the head of the Catholic Medical Association.
My remarks were intended for all those Catholics and non-Catholics who believe the Church says otherwise. I must have assumed you also misunderstood, because I did deliberately address that to you to make sure you saw it. Unfortunately, I haven't read everything you've written, even on this topic.
As for honored Catholics' preaching and practicing anti-Catholic behavior, it does seem that many Church leaders are willing to look the other way if the end justifies the means. That, too, as you know, is expressly anti-Catholic behavior.
that your father was denied pain medication.
My mom died in a hospital after a choking incident due to advanced dementia. She could no longer coordinate swallowing, so you can imagine her level of function; swallowing is the last semi-voluntary function to go. She was only semi-conscious, and had long before refused feeding tubes, in writing, unless recovery seemed likely. We realized we had to let her go.
Not only was morphine recommended, my sister and I had control of the dosing, as my mom tailspun through a slow-motion race between starvation (painless with the morphine) and choking to death from the pneumonia triggered by the choking. It's hard to say this, but the morphine not only stopped any pain and the panic of her no longer having the cognizance to realize what was happening, it hastened the dying process to an end before fluids filled her lungs and she died choking and drowning.
Nobody wants those decisions, but to deny family the right to make those excruciating choices, and let pain be a person's last experience makes even an atheist like me want to believe in hell for people like your dad's torturers.
Since when do the catholic bishops get to vote on anyting in the U.S.
Why don't you guys straighten out your own child molesting organization and then get back to us.
when an organization that supported Hitler during the war and aided the escape of Nazis is allowed to participate in the American political process.
So when are they gonna vote on a mandatory feeding outside of Catholic hospitals?
... I was working with a large group of people, healthy people with no histories or likelihoods of chronic disease, signing general DNRs - Do Not Resuscitate Orders - on the basis that they didn't want to be in pain like Terri Schiavo, not realizing that these orders, in their wording, would disallow them from receiving first aid in some cases, or being revived from drowning, heart attacks, and other issues that people routinely survive. If this is what you want, fine. Just make sure you know what you are signing, and educate yourself on the system.
My preference? I want to survive. As long as possible. I really don't care how much pain I am in, or whatever. If the future may find a way to fix whatever ails me, I'll hang on as long as I can to see. My family knows this. It's in my living will.
My way, however, is not for everyone. Whatever your wish, make sure it is documented. Get educated, figure out what's best for you, and make sure it is easily found in case of injury or illness. If no will or end of life plan can be found, the decision should, as a legal matter of course, fall to the spouse(incidentally, another reason we need to allow same-sex marriage).
Such end of life consultations are precisely what the Republicans got removed from the healhcare reform bills because some people have somehow come to believe it's about the government plans to kill Grandma.
What I can't believe is that Roman Catholic bishops are trying to entice Anglicans away from their church, because in American Episcopal churches they're allowing openly gay priests and bishops in loving relationships to serve, and to go to a church with secretive and furtive molestation of kids by priests, who do much worse, and the hierarchy protects them.
Ethics? Catholicism? Please! These silly preposterous drag queens are about as relevant to the notion of ethics as my are grandfather's hemorrhoids. They've been killing, torturing, and diddling boys for fifteen centuries. Nobody gives a fucking shit what these assholes say anymore. Let them fart their pronouncements. The stench serves to warn the decent among us that "The Church" is nearby, and is to be avoided like swamp gas.
"not placing bureaucracy between you and your doctor" meme to fight HCR now.
on the subject of moralistic doctors and the fate of her father. I had to restrain my very good friend Bob from kicking the living shit out of his family doctor because that doctor didn't want to see Bob's wife become addicted to morphine. She was only days away from expiring from bone cancer and in agony. Yes indeed, such assholes exist.
<.
There is no such thing as a "Catholic Hospital," not since the good ol' USofA decided to adopt OLIGARCHY as its national "religion" and worship the great god of corporate greed. So-called "Catholic Hospitals," as do corporations and government agencies throughout America, now employ RISK MANAGERS and CORPORATE ATTORNEYS whose sole purpose in life is to advise their employers how to avoid lawsuits, even if said "advice" is illegal and costs the lives and livelihoods of millions of Americans.
http://healthcare.change.org/actions/view/pro...
Carol Tucker, MA
Court Reform-NOW
Pro Se Can You Plea
I work for a group of Catholic hospitals, and I can tell you that the nuns who run our organization break with the church on some things, including being respectful to end-of-life decisions and allowing a patient to be transferred to another hospital in the rare case that he or she can't get what they need from us. Fortunately we're in a big city so there are a lot of other options.
I really feel for people stuck in a town that has only one hospital, if it's Catholic-run and extremely dogmatic. Patient autonomy matters, and I hate to think about a non-Catholic being stuck having to abide by Catholic rules because they don't have any choices.
The Vatican has been running an "inquisition" of sorts on American nuns, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they want to curtail the more liberal nuns' health care practices like respecting advance directives and helping to prevent pregnancy in rape victims.
Will be keeping people alive in their hospitals in an effort to recover some of the funds paid out in sex abuse cases. A bunch of pedophiles, period. All of them from the lowest priest to the pope are.
Susie, I'm truly sorry your father had to go through this last hell before leaving this earth. I don't know where this the Apostle of the Saint Assholery learned the tenets of the Catholic faith, but he sure wasn't listening during the lectures. The prime directive of the faith is compassion toward the others. Act toward them like thee want to be treated.
Furthermore, he was liable of negligence and malpractice.
Why? because there is NO (let me repeat that one mo' time...NO) evidence whatsoever that morphine at high doses can hasten death. Of course a massive dose injected in bolus (high flow continuous push) will do that. But no physician in his sane mind would do something like that. There is a reeason why doses are given at intervals (duh!) And every physician should (as in "ought to") know this factoid of pain management 001. It's basic medicine.
What you had here was a small-minded fuck who sought first and foremost to assuage his belief-based "conscience" instead of performing the much more difficult task of staying up to date on the principles and practice of pain management. The latter involve critical thinking, strive to be fact-based (a grave threat to any belief system) and a willingness to study.
Now this intolerable intrusion of socio-fuckologists into the Art of medicine...AGAIN??
Complete disregard for the evidence, for the wishes of the patient and the family? Our faith trumps everything and screw you Tyrone?
GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
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