Problem is, the Pope really cares about abortion. He doesn't care about war. It is sad really. Someone said it right, the Church and the Religious Right only care up to the point when you are born. They don't give a damn what happens to you after.

P.S. I am catholic. And Rat is a rat.

I heard a report this morning, on a local PBS station, that Larry King cancelled an interview that he had scheduled with Michael Moore, in order to interview Paris Hilton instead. If this is true, then Sicko indeed. The entire national culture is at death's door.

There is no question our healthcare system is broken. Sicko is fantastic at showing that. Unfortunately, he does not show how broken the other systems are. We need radical change, but to do so without understanding how the grass is not as green on the side that Mr. Moore portays either.

Are we worse off over here? For sure. We need to learn from our awful mistakes. But we also need to learn from some of the major problems of the socialized systems in other countries.

Remember, France is the size of Texas, and has the population of California. Administering benefits there is not as challenging.

Let's just not go off half-cocked

Josh @ 5:

There is no question our healthcare system is broken. Sicko is fantastic at showing that. Unfortunately, he does not show how broken the other systems are. We need radical change, but to do so without understanding how the grass is not as green on the side that Mr. Moore portays either.

Are we worse off over here? For sure. We need to learn from our awful mistakes. But we also need to learn from some of the major problems of the socialized systems in other countries.

Remember, France is the size of Texas, and has the population of California. Administering benefits there is not as challenging.

Let's just not go off half-cocked

Couldnt have said it better. The idea that we need to model our system after that of the Cubans or the Brits is just insane.

Come on, do you really want the government to run healthcare? This is the same government that brought you Katrina.....

Pass.

Seamus @ 8:

CD @ 6:

Of all the countries with Universal health care why did Moore have to go to Cuba?

He had heard that the prisoners at Gitmo were getting all the best in free health care, from the US government, including Dental, so he decided that he would take some of the sick volunteers from 9/11 to Gitmo for treatment. They would not admit him onto the base, so he just went next door to Cuba, and got them treated.

...

Like he didn't plan the whole thing ahead of time.

the fucking hollywood elite that refused to see the truth because they were afraid it would hurt their grosses and therefore booed moore

he was right then....he is right now

Rhl @ 10:

Michael Moore should be very proud of his defining moment at the Academy Awards. When millions of Americans were foolishly supporting President Bush and his insane invasion of Iraq, Moore had the courage to challenge him on the world's largest stage.

Nah...he was in front of a more or less friendly crowd.

If he really wanted to impress me, he should have said it, streaking the halftime Super Bowl show....

:-)

Well, an uneducated, superstitious, unhealthy populace is a Republican-voting populace. It's no wonder these Christofascists don't want a happy, healthy, educated populace.

Quie True @ 15:

Well, an uneducated, superstitious, unhealthy populace is a Republican-voting populace. It's no wonder these Christofascists don't want a happy, healthy, educated populace.

====================================
Since just before the civil war, Ignoramus Amurkkka has been getting played like a fiddle.

CD @ 9:

Seamus @ 8:

CD @ 6:

Of all the countries with Universal health care why did Moore have to go to Cuba?

He had heard that the prisoners at Gitmo were getting all the best in free health care, from the US government, including Dental, so he decided that he would take some of the sick volunteers from 9/11 to Gitmo for treatment. They would not admit him onto the base, so he just went next door to Cuba, and got them treated.

...

Like he didn't plan the whole thing ahead of time.

Off course he did. You asked why he choose Cuba. I answered your question. He knew what he was doing, and why Cuba was the perfect example to highlight.. The Right Wingers in America are always warning about the evils of a place such as Cuba, so Moore seized on it to show what a mess the American Health Care System is in, if it compares so badly to a place that the American Right Wing considers to be hell hole. That is what makes Sicko so brilliant, because he is rubbing Bush's nose in his hollow rhetoric about how great things are in America compared to Cuba.

Cd- Well duh, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to know that they weren't going to get treated at Gitmo, but the punchline is- the Gitmo people told him to take the 9-11 people to the cuban hospital- who are ACTUALLY ailing and not getting treated here in America- and they got much better care for pennies.

Josh @ 18:

MeMyselfAndI @ 14:

Josh @ 5:

There is no question our healthcare system is broken. Sicko is fantastic at showing that. Unfortunately, he does not show how broken the other systems are. We need radical change, but to do so without understanding how the grass is not as green on the side that Mr. Moore portays either.

Are we worse off over here? For sure. We need to learn from our awful mistakes. But we also need to learn from some of the major problems of the socialized systems in other countries.

Remember, France is the size of Texas, and has the population of California. Administering benefits there is not as challenging.

Let's just not go off half-cocked

The Western EU has a population larger than the USA, every country in the original 12 EU states has a health care system ranked higher than here. And I don't think anyone is making a case of having to copy other people's system, it is just that the current system that we have here sucks big donkey balls compared with other countries. Anyhow, nice strawman argument...

Wasn't meant to be a strawman. Sorry if you took it that way. Each of those 12 EU states is individually smaller population, and unless I've completely (and I have a french Passport too) they haven't integrated their health plans yet. My point is that Universal health care is a much bigger (Population, area, etc) challenge for Americans. And we should make sure we study the implemented programs so we can learn from their mistakes as well as ours.

We have a bigger challenge than any European state has, and we also have a greater obligation to treat our poor. Let's do it, but not be stupid about it, and blindly charge into changes that give us just a different kind of bad.

That was supposed to say "unless I've completely missed it."

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Michael were to give L. King a ration of crap for dumping him for Paris. That would seem to be right where MM wants to be - similar to his taking whathisname on GMA to task for the media's failure to stop the evil empire - bushco, et. al. - back when it had its chance. He could use the opportunity to give King and CNN a shot or three about how they've allowed a once-proud news organization to be 'fauxed-down' by Murdock/Ailes and company. How they've abandoned any semblance of journalistic integrity. Then, get up and walk out of the interview. Let 'em follow that with a re-run of Paris claiming that she's 'found Jesus' - after all it was either that or checking into re-hab.

To hell with 'em all Mike. You don't need this slime-ball any more than you need 'billore'.

Seamus @ 19:

CD @ 9:

Seamus @ 8:

CD @ 6:

He had heard that the prisoners at Gitmo were getting all the best in free health care, from the US government, including Dental, so he decided that he would take some of the sick volunteers from 9/11 to Gitmo for treatment. They would not admit him onto the base, so he just went next door to Cuba, and got them treated.

...

Like he didn't plan the whole thing ahead of time.

Off course he did. You asked why he choose Cuba. I answered your question. He knew what he was doing, and why Cuba was the perfect example to highlight.. The Right Wingers in America are always warning about the evils of a place such as Cuba, so Moore seized on it to show what a mess the American Health Care System is in, if it compares so badly to a place that the American Right Wing considers to be hell hole. That is what makes Sicko so brilliant, because he is rubbing Bush's nose in his hollow rhetoric about how great things are in America compared to Cuba.

Castro is a violent dictator and Moore seems to be trying to make him look good.

Here's an interesting little comparison for you. My mother has no health coverage and hasn't had any for years. She has been through strokes, a botched surgey to clear a neck artery, a heart attack and cancer. She has received considerable treatment for all of these problems and has never been booted out of a hospital due to her lack of ability to pay.

I've been in the military for almost 11 years and have had "coverage" the entire time. I was recently diagnosed with type 2 diabetes but there is a pretty strong chance of it clearing up if I lose enough weight (yeah, I got a little chubby in Japan). Because of this one diagnosis I am now facing a medical evaluation board (MEB) and the possibility of being booted out after having received only minimal treatment. There is a pretty strong chance that I will be retained so I'm not terribly worried about it but the idea that I could be kicked out due to something that I can control simply with diet is rather frightening. Any disability I MIGHT receive would be minimal and I absolutely refuse to deal with the VA and that whole beauracratic minefield.

I've seen other service members denied some of the most basic health care in order to save money. Yes, TriCare is just another HMO. It is aptly named, as in they "try to care" but just can't quite bring themselves to do it.

My point is that we seem to be closer to social medicine than a lot of people realize. Often times, people without any health insurance receive better care than those of us who have it. The cost ultimately ends up with the tax payers who just don't realize it.

I see what you mean. Moore should have made Gandhi Bush look good. After all those no good Cubans had no right to attack Iraq. Gandhi Bush shuns all such violence.

...

Seamus @ 31:

I see what you mean. Moore should have made Gandhi Bush look good. After all those no good Cubans had no right to attack Iraq. Gandhi Bush shuns all such violence.

...

Yes Yes and and two wrongs make a right.

Socialized Medicine is just another of those Terrorize The People slogans that are used by the Turd Blossom spin Doctors.

What kind of healthcare system would I like to see in the USA: I want a Civilized Healthcare System, as opposed to what we now have: A Robber Baron Heathcare System!.

...

Josh @ 18:

Wasn't meant to be a strawman. Sorry if you took it that way. Each of those 12 EU states is individually smaller population, and unless I've completely (and I have a french Passport too) they haven't integrated their health plans yet. My point is that Universal health care is a much bigger (Population, area, etc) challenge for Americans. And we should make sure we study the implemented programs so we can learn from their mistakes as well as ours.

We have a bigger challenge than any European state has, and we also have a greater obligation to treat our poor. Let's do it, but not be stupid about it, and blindly charge into changes that give us just a different kind of bad.

I don't think you understand how "universal" health care works, universal does not imply "federal." I have lived in both places, and for the most part EU countries deal with health care at a regional level. Therefore, here in the US it could be approached in the same fashion, i.e. health care for Californians would be managed by.... California itself, what a concept! :-) I simply don't understand how come people in this country are OK with states managing Universities, the National Guard, roads, etc... but get all fuzzy when it comes to health care. Ironically we are subsidizing a lot of private health providers under medicare/medicaid... it would far more efficient to simply cut the middle man really.

In any case, I have experienced both health care systems... I would take the socialized approach any day. I am sure it has its problems, nothing it is perfect... but it is not as preposterous as a "for profit" health care system. I know that state managed institutions have their issues and challenges, however I think it is far scarier to leave my health care in the hands of a corporation that is looking after its bottom line first and my well being second.

His movie will make the country think. Of course we have a massive population. That's, you know...obvious...so our universal health care would be different, but it's embarrassing that we're ranked so low in the World health care services

MeMyselfAndI @ 40:

Josh @ 18:

Wasn't meant to be a strawman. Sorry if you took it that way. Each of those 12 EU states is individually smaller population, and unless I've completely (and I have a french Passport too) they haven't integrated their health plans yet. My point is that Universal health care is a much bigger (Population, area, etc) challenge for Americans. And we should make sure we study the implemented programs so we can learn from their mistakes as well as ours.

We have a bigger challenge than any European state has, and we also have a greater obligation to treat our poor. Let's do it, but not be stupid about it, and blindly charge into changes that give us just a different kind of bad.

I don't think you understand how "universal" health care works, universal does not imply "federal." I have lived in both places, and for the most part EU countries deal with health care at a regional level. Therefore, here in the US it could be approached in the same fashion, i.e. health care for Californians would be managed by.... California itself, what a concept! :-) I simply don't understand how come people in this country are OK with states managing Universities, the National Guard, roads, etc... but get all fuzzy when it comes to health care. Ironically we are subsidizing a lot of private health providers under medicare/medicaid... it would far more efficient to simply cut the middle man really.

In any case, I have experienced both health care systems... I would take the socialized approach any day. I am sure it has its problems, nothing it is perfect... but it is not as preposterous as a "for profit" health care system. I know that state managed institutions have their issues and challenges, however I think it is far scarier to leave my health care in the hands of a corporation that is looking after its bottom line first and my well being second.

We agree completely, because I was just about to suggest healthcare at the state level, but was afraid of someone going ballistic. Problem with the state approach I foresee is that Alabamans (etc) are gonna get fucked. But that is on them and their voting populace.

I'm not sure where you have experienced it, I'm only familiar directly with France and the US. Would I take the French system? Sure. Would it bankrupt whatever state implemented the exact same thing? Yes. I'm no opponent to universal healthcare. All I've said in all my posts is that we need to carefully see where the universal systems in place, as currently implemented, fail (in addition to their successes, obviously). The Western EU models are not without problems, and it would behoove proponents of Universal healthcare to acknowledge them and work to rectify them.

CD @ 27:

Castro is a violent dictator and Moore seems to be trying to make him look good.

Hahaha. Good one. How many countries has Castro invaded over a criminal act, ostensibly looking for the perpetrator, but bombing weddings, public markets, infrastructure, allowing looting and seeing 100's of thousands of civilians dead?

How many elections has Castro stolen?

You have the quintessential "Violent Dictator" in CheneyBushCo. They make Castro look like a kitten.

When you make any decision on a policy choice you, like everything else in life, do a cost benefit analysis. There is no perfect healthcare system anywhere and never will be. Europeans all have some form of universal healthcare but few have "government run healthcare". Some, like France, are a hybrid, others like the Netherlands socialize the costs but have involvement from private insurers as well. In doing a cost benefit analysis, the costs of having Americans un-insured and having to go into bankruptcy, and having healthcare expenditures going to administrative costs and in the pockets of executives and shareholders, will always outweigh things like waiting lists any day of the week. Universal healthcare is cheaper, it covers everyone and it has preventive care, which drastically cuts down on costs. A private healthcare system will ALWAYS cost more (profits, marketing, administrative costs, executive pay, etc) than universal healthcare. Not to mention the morals of universal healthcare. So, while universal healthcare isn't perfect, no system will ever be and it will always be eons better than a privatized system that doesn't cover everyone. If that means it has to be universal, at least initially, at the state level then so be it. IF, big IF, we are going to live in a “globalized” world, US corporations and small business will not survive without us, like other countries, collectively cover healthcare costs. If you want an example, look no further than the auto industry.

"After a 13 hour wait in an “emergency” room you might change your perspective on that. If you’ve got no insurance, and no cash, you’ve got nowhere else to go. No insurance folks go to the bottom of the waiting list."

Fade, you are definitely right about that. Often times the hospital has a "no pay, no stay" policy. If you don't have money or coverage you are definitely going to the bottom of the list but you still get seen eventually. What I'm saying is that if two people come into the same hospital with the same exact medical problem and only one of them is insured, the guy with health insurance will often be denied certain treatments because the insurance company is known to refuse payment on it where as the uninsured guy may get all the treatment necessary and have the cost written off by the hospital to the city, county or wherever. Practically every hospital has this sort of care written into the budget because they know there are certain number of people who will seek care who simply can not afford it.

John Amato @ 42:

His movie will make the country think. Of course we have a massive population. That's, you know...obvious...so our universal health care would be different, but it's embarrassing that we're ranked so low in the World health care services

I do hope his movie helps improve America.

As for all this BS about having such a large population, compared to other countries that have better healthcare systems, as an excuse: How come we do not hear that , but in fact the exact opposite, when it comes to Military spending. All we hear then is , we can afford it, because we have such a great economy, and that makes is the nation with the greatest military in the world. That is what they keep telling us. Money is no object, and we can afford it when it comes to having the best Military forces, and then they turn right around and poor mouth us to explain why we have to tolerate an awful healthcare system. Doublespeak at it's finest. We can afford to be the best at killing others, but we can not afford to keep our own alive and well cared for.

...

....

Joe Klein's conscience @ 1:

Problem is, the Pope really cares about abortion. He doesn't care about war. It is sad really. Someone said it right, the Church and the Religious Right only care up to the point when you are born. They don't give a damn what happens to you after.

P.S. I am catholic. And Rat is a rat.

Gratuitous and wrong.

Wicked

Can you imagine what Cuba's economy might be like if we didn't have the embargos against them.

I've always wondered, if we didn't live in a world run by financial capitalists, what type of living standards countries like Cuba, well everyone, could have if they were able to develope on their own terms and not those of investors. Everyone who's called a "dreamer" would be a realist if the power didn't, as it does, lie in the financial markets. Maybe something like the Tobin Tax could get the ball rolling.

I'm seeing a lot of talk about how this country has too big a population to be able to cover it with a national health care system and there may be a point to this. What if each state enacted its own universal health care? That in itself could become a beauracratic mess but each state already has legal standards for things such as building codes, car insurance, ownership of weapons and so on. Why not health care? Each state's needs are different and a one size fits all coverage could create problems of its own.

Anyway, it's just a thought.

Wicked- Where the hell do you live? I can walk into any clinic in Lubbock, bust out my insurance card and be seen within an hour.

VACCINATED CHILDREN TWO AND A HALF TIMES MORE LIKELY TO HAVE
NEUROLOGICAL DISORDERS LIKE ADHD AND AUTISM,
NEW SURVEY IN CALIFORNIA AND OREGON FINDS

http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html

New Findings Emerge as Debate Rages in Court

Portland, OR — June 26, 2007 — As the first trial in Vaccine Court
explores the relationship between vaccines and autism, a new survey
released today indicates a strong correlation between rates of
neurological disorders, such as ADHD and autism, and childhood
vaccinations.

The survey, commissioned by Generation Rescue, compared vaccinated and
unvaccinated children in nine counties in Oregon and California. Among
more than 9,000 boys age 4-17, the survey found vaccinated boys were
two and a half times (155%) more likely to have neurological disorders
compared to their unvaccinated peers. Vaccinated boys were 224% more
likely to have Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), and
61% more likely to have autism.

For older vaccinated boys in the 11-17 age bracket, the results were
even more pronounced. Vaccinated boys were 158% more likely to have a
neurological disorder, 317% more likely to have ADHD, and 112% more
likely to have autism. Complete survey results are available at
www.GenerationRescue.org.

Generation Rescue commissioned the phone survey. Data was gathered by
SurveyUSA, a national market research firm, which surveyed parents by
phone on more than 17,000 children, ages 4-17, in five counties in
California (San Diego, Sonoma, Orange, Sacramento, and Marin) and four
counties in Oregon (Multnomah, Marion, Jackson, and Lane).

The survey asked parents whether their child had been vaccinated, and
whether that child had one or more of the following diagnoses:
Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), ADHD, Asperger's Syndrome, Pervasive
Development Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified (PDD-NOS), or Autism. The
phone survey was chosen to mirror the methodology the Centers for
Disease Control (CDC) uses to establish national prevalence for
neurological disorders in their national phone survey.

We need a one-payer health care system in this country. And we need to eliminate the insurance industry in the health care equasion. For profit health care has a huge overhead -- money that could go into cure goes into profit. A system based on one now in place, Medicare, would take about 3% instead of 35% to run. And it is already in place. Sign everybody up, repeal all tax breaks for the rich and corporations, especially those who take jobs overseas and the money is there to do it. All that is missing is the will to do it. And it will never happen unless we elect people who care more about people than profit.
As for Michael Moore, I love the man. 'Nuf said.

Lucas

I havn't seen the movie yet. I do think there is only so much he can put in it to make his point. Don't worry, if there is a lot of negatives to point out, the health care industry will spend millions if not billions to refute his movie.

You could do your own research if you have doubts that you are concerned about.

So is boosh the Dicatatorer?

Bob

The VA hospitals would run a lot better if they were funded properly.

Doctors believe they've never been really paid what they deserve and anything less than 10x markup on what they are making now will not even begin to satisfy them. Don't expect doctors to support what they will condemn as the stalinization of medicine if what they are making doesn't actually increase.

.

The sad thing I have seen from working in hospitals is that our current health care system could probably work a lot better if the equipment, treatments, medicines and such just weren't so expensive. Hospitals charge an arm and a leg for some of the simplist procedures. We've all heard about $5.00 for an aspirin and it isn't a myth. Why do they charge so much though? Partly because their suppliers charge so much. You should see how much money a hospital has to pay for something as simple as ECG pads, penicillin and surgical tools. Insurance companies might be more willing to pay for stuff if they felt they weren't getting gouged.

The Incredible Falcon of the Adirondacks @ 77:

Doctors believe they've never been really paid what they deserve and anything less than 10x markup on what they are making now will not even begin to satisfy them. Don't expect doctors to support what they will condemn as the stalinization of medicine if what they are making doesn't actually increase.

There's plenty of over paid doctors out there for sure but I've known several who probably make close to $100,000/year and can barely make ends meet. It wasn't due to an extravagant lifestyle or anything like that either. The cost of their education plus malpractice is huge. Factor in a mortgage and other costs of raising a family and that money gets pretty tight. I don't know specific figures for malpractice coverage but I know they are mighty high. I don't suppose anybody here might have an idea of what doctors have to pay for that coverage?

Sorry Miss Kitty. I was just being snarky.

AF_Comm_Guy @ 79:

The sad thing I have seen from working in hospitals is that our current health care system could probably work a lot better if the equipment, treatments, medicines and such just weren't so expensive. Hospitals charge an arm and a leg for some of the simplist procedures. We've all heard about $5.00 for an aspirin and it isn't a myth. Why do they charge so much though? Partly because their suppliers charge so much. You should see how much money a hospital has to pay for something as simple as ECG pads, penicillin and surgical tools. Insurance companies might be more willing to pay for stuff if they felt they weren't getting gouged.

A lot of people point to programs like medicare/caid as arguments against universal health care. They say look how much these programs cost, how can we sustain that for the entire country. But the problem really is that hospitals GOUGE THE HELL out of those programs. And, of course, rather than going after hospitals for doing so the state pays up and then cuts the hell out of the programs.

Medicine is not a viable business. The best medicine is the least medicine-- the opposite of maximizing revenue. The best doctors can expect fewer repeat customers. Ideally, the customer base should shrink-- not grow-- over time. Medicine should be a public service, like water or roads. Do we have water insurance? Road insurance? Insurance is a fucking scam.

Force all employers to be pay for healthcare for their employees.
What's so hard about that?

Wicked Legs @ 82:

AF_Comm_Guy, I would argue because the healthcare industry is run by for profit corporations who need to grow to make their investors happy. If hospitals need to continuously increase profits how do they do it? By eliminating or decreasing costly services, by raising the prices for basic services and resources, by accepting fewer claims, etc. I don't see any way of getting around it as long as the same institutions are used for healthcare delivery.

I saw a news report on ABC which I think might be featured in the world news or one of their little "We're So Concerned About ___" news shows, about how HMOs are taking over states medicaid services, then using profits to support minor league baseball, buy sculpture, spending in some cases 50% of what they're paid by the state for patient care-the rest for profit.
They close down special facilities that rehab brain damage people, train handicapped people to adapt, and by signing up only healthy people...Oh look I found the link http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=3314626&page=1
---snip---
"...All her life, Georgia's Medicaid system paid for Ainsley to receive weekly physical, occupational and speech therapy, along with several other low-income children, at a facility in Monroe, Ga.

Then last year, Georgia turned its state-run Medicaid system over to insurance companies as part of a switch to health maintenance organizations, known as HMOs. Payment for Ainsley's therapy -- and the therapy for other children at the Georgia clinic -- was denied by the new HMOs..."

Bob Senter @ 74:

Yes, lets get the government to fix the health care system. We all know how efficiently the VA Hospitals are run.

Actually the VA maintenance, who's getting all the bad press, has been privatised under boosh.

He's also reduced the number of hospitals when we're soon to be swamped with returning soldiers, and they still haven't hired enough shrinks for the PTSD and other traumatised.

Wicked Legs @ 82:

AF_Comm_Guy, I would argue because the healthcare industry is run by for profit corporations who need to grow to make their investors happy. If hospitals need to continuously increase profits how do they do it? By eliminating or decreasing costly services, by raising the prices for basic services and resources, by accepting fewer claims, etc. I don't see any way of getting around it as long as the same institutions are used for healthcare delivery.

It is not solely about "profits." The fact that a hospital is expensive to run is, mostly, due to the fact that it is staffed by very expensive professionals. Doctors are rightfully paid a very high salary - they are extensively educated over a long period of time and do a job no person would want to do without the monetary incentive. How do you fix that? By forcing hospitals to pay these people less - then you have the same problems that Canada is experiencing in a shortage of doctors. Force them to charge less for innovative treatments? Then the companies developing those treatments have less of a monetary incentive to continue to invest in newer treatments. The fact is healthcare is expensive because they provide services which are expensive to provide and those expenses are spread throughout all services provided.

Actually administrators are paid more than doctors, and most hospitals are over-staffed with administrators. Most medical care and decision are made by interns, who are just getting experienced, not the most experience, and more and more unsupervised and working in a near somnambulistic state. Additionally, like other businesses the administrators invest in the stock market and when they face losses pass it on to patients.

Oopsie,

My father and younger brother are also veterans who go to the VA hospital.

This is a test; maybe it will post, maybe it won't...

I don't know specifically what Castro has to do with healthcare in America, but whatever, its a tangent that some folks want to debate, fine... As far as healthcare in this nation goes... In my opinion it's a pretty simple picture to see though apparently not an easy picture or situation to fix...

Heres the basic deal now in early 21st century America... the Private sector is failing the American public on healthcare at almost every level except maybe the bill processing part... They have a real fine automated system for churning out the bills...
And the U.S. postal system doesn't seem to have any problems delivering the bills... Getting access and permissions to access this healthcare system.. Ranges from fairly easy to no fucking way in hell depending on individual circumstances... Then there's the whole inconsistency issues between healthcare institutions and the manner in which they are run.. Public hospital verse private hospital... Another can of worms subset and outgrowth of the bigger problem...

Just about every other aspect of healthcare is screwed up.. And this was the model touted not so very long ago... Following H. Clintons attempt in 93 to get this nation to go for a national healthcare model... Ohh the critics screamed. Socialism, socialist medicine, the end of western civilization if we go that rout.. No no, much better to let the free market come up with a solution..

Well, folks the solution was HMO's which became nothing more than a form of healthcare rationing in their zeal to cut costs... And all done over time under cover of this highly touted to deliever while holding the line on costs HMO/PPO model.. .. But make no mistake it has not held down cost over the long haul
and it is this reality that has led to defacto rationing by economics... Might look good to a bean counter in Hartford Ct. or some other location with a big shot health insurance home office.. But it doesn't really serve the nations best interests nor the majority of its citizenry...

Why would I make that claim? Well, as regards control or containment of contagious desease or ensuring this so called best healthcare system in the world is actually available to the actual citizens of this particular land.. It fails, it has failed and will continue to fail more and more over time. I submit that in reality, Hillary, like her or not, and her basic plan Like the details or not, was the right solution... That we've put that off for the last fourteen years while in pursuit of the chimera of a private sector HMO oriented solution which has just not panned out.. It has merely put off the day of reakoning while a few insurance conglomerates syphoned off the nations citizens private wealth in myriad charges that even accountants can't always describe easily... Has ultimately been a total waste of time, effort, money and lives in order to pursue this spitting contest of free markets verses socialized approaches... In this case to healthcare...

What's the final solution for this mess? Like it or not, a national health care plan payed for thru taxation of ALL, but expecially business will be the only solution that can work in this kind of society, environment and economic reality given noone can afford it on a personal level.. And it's in big businesses best interests to get on board with some variation on this theme.. The majority of private citizens cannot keep up with the continual escalation in health care prices and folks? There just ain't enough rich people in the world to sustain this kind of healthcare model economically and the insurance industry is scared shitless they will go broke trying to make it work... And they are right...

Another shit sammich we all have to bite into for the good of all... OR else just go every person for themselves on paying for healthcare... And we will find out in pretty short order just what the reality of a planet wide epidemic can really really mean to the survival or lack thereof of our species... And all over money...
In other words, is the health and insurance industries going to say for instance vaccinate against a clear and present danger of a plague for example... Or just walk away because noone can pay for it... Is a decision like that just penny wise.. Or pound foolish as well.... The answers to some of these questions are part of the really important stuff we should all be pondering... instead of say Paris Hiltons release or personal desires...JD

Has it not already been established that the shortage (and the extremely high salaries) of doctors is, at least in part, due to the fact that doctors make it harder for people to enter into their field in the first place? That seems to be the case with many similar professions elsewhere. If there are less doctors then doctor salaries go up substantially. I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid well, but there should be many, many more doctors and nurses than there are, which would lower per capita salaries a little. Part of the reason doctors do this is the extremely high amount of student loans they have to pay back, it's not all naked self interest. We've had countless programs in our country's history to build up infrastructure that didn't have high commercial (but high social) demand and I would argue that training doctors, in ways that leaves them far less debt ridden, would be a good start. Cuba, who was mentioned before, has many times more doctors per citizen than we or Canada do. I realize the costs of doing so with a country like ours, but it isn’t at all impossible. Celebrities, who make crappy mindless movies, and similar professions make as much as they do because of commercial demand. Most of them have little to no social demand however. Maybe we should alter the economic system so it makes more RATIONAL sense. As people above mentioned, we spend more than the rest of the world combined on the military, maybe if we had less plains to fly around the Nevada desert and more doctors, just maybe, we'd be better off and maybe it would be money spent on something that is more beneficial to the country as a whole.

That's interesting, and depressing, miss_kitty. Next time someone in the area needs something done on their heart and the HMO denies them, at least they'll have a nice painting to stair at as they go over the events of their life.

Vinny Badabing @ 89:

Force all employers to be pay for healthcare for their employees.
What's so hard about that?

I'll move right past the master-of-the-written-word diss and get straight to the question.

First, that would be difficult, in itself, because employers would fight it with campaign contributions. Not much less than the difficulties we'd face otherwise, but it would be very difficult, nonetheless.

Second, not everyone is employed--especially full-time--and that's not a matter of "laziness," as the argument would go. There just aren't enough jobs to go around, and employers would cut staff as fast as possible, if the idea were implemented, in the interest of "efficiency" and making profits for their investors.

Third, the employers would just "pass the 'savings' along to is," the employees/consumers. Of course, a universal health care system would also cost us; so that just puts us back at square one -- minus the second point made above.

Third, "square one" in this instance contains the inherent problems with a for-profit insurance industry, whose goal is to maximize profits, much in the way other employers do.

So, what we'd end up with is higher cost-of-living and soaring unemployment -- all in the interest of supporting subsidizing (see the Obama plan) the broken system we already have.

A bit simplistic, to be sure, but does that help answer your question?

Don't miss the entrance of Jack Valenti at the end - now deceased. Union buster, censor, racist, and one of the most corrupt people in hollywood. I wouldn't pee on him if his heart were on fire.

I'd forgotten what lame asses the conservative hollywood elite were during the speech. Only guy who said anything of substance the whole night.

CD @ 6:

Of all the countries with Universal health care why did Moore have to go to Cuba?

As an alternative to the medical facilities at Guantanamo, it was a good choice. Most Americans are painfully unaware that the Cuban medical system is efficient, effective, and actually quite advanced considering the limited resources of the country. In fact Cuba has one of the best healthcare systems in Latin America. But then Americans aren't supposed to know that. If it's not overpriced and under the control of Big Pharma and the Insurance industry it must be primitive, is what we're spoon-fed by the media and our government.

Harvard School of Public Health

The arguments over national healthcare for all Americans comes down in the final analysis to the issue of corporate health by protecting profitability, or the health of the citizens. Is healthcare a basic human need, and arguably a right; or yet another resource to be plundered for profit.

^^ Ted Nugent, Arnold Swartznegger, Chuck Norris, Drew Carry, Dennis Miller, Toby Keith, and every other right wing freak in Hollywood..

Haha. He was right. That must be satisfying.

I would take out a commoercial saying "I told you so". LOL

destardi @ 112:

...Health care will be a central issue in the 2008 election; and there WILL be change...Hillary Clinton, and a couple other candidates mentioned why, specifically.

Anytime big business' bottom line is impacted by an issue, it is bound to be front and center for legislative change. Big business is losing money to health care, ultimately, and with them finally waking up to needed restructuring, it health care will get traction this time around. The only thing is, of course it's going to be a nightmare if they have their dirty hands in it...

Big business wants to EXTERNALIZE it. Basically, stop paying for it. Privatize the profit. Socialize the cost. Health insurance is too important to let the schemers fuck with it behind closed doors.

"... he argues that France's socialized helthcare is awesome, and to illustrate this he simply interviews a few individuals who happen to be very happy with that system.
This is fine, but it is not enough. More research and data would help this documentary, instead of simply individual experiences. My point is, he could also find people who got screwed by France's healthcare system and interview them, but that wouldn't prove anything either."

Lucas, as a French who does NOT believe everything here works better that in the US ... I must say our healthcare system is indeed very good and covers absolutely everyone decently. While your point is not without merit (looking long and hard, you can always find dissatisfied people), the larger point M. Moore makes is that the US ranks lower than most industrialized countries in terms of healthcare. It is not about interviewing a bunch of people ... this ranking was conducted by a non partisan global organization and based on factual, verifiable basis. It is all the more staggering when you realize that you have a poor performing system with millions of people not/badly covered whereas your spending per capita is higher than France (which ranks 1st). In the meantime, big insurance and pharma companies are gorging themselves in the US ... that's precisely why the French systems works so well because its regulation prevent such things form happening.

The battle for health care in Canada encountered many of the same obstacles as in the US (Teddy Roosevelt first presented the idea, and Truman tried as well, but caved into intense AMA lobbying). When it was first introduced in Saskatchewan, the doctors went on strike.

Tommy Douglas, the father of Canadian health care and premier of Saskatchewan for almost 20 years, was voted as the Greatest Canadian for his efforts (ahead of Canadian prime ministers and other heroes). Moore finds this out in the film without further elaboration. Look him up. Incidentally, he is Kiefer Sutherland's grandfather.

Here's a clip from Prairie Giant: The Tommy Douglas Story, a two part TV movie that aired on the CBC last year. It's Douglas' farewell speech before his retirement from leadership of the NDP where he speaks about health care in the same way Moore is doing right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf1YAznsnVA

And Cuba's success as a country that has been besieged for almost 50 years (check the CIA's family jewels not to mention the US Naval Station within its territory!) is known throughout the Third World. In fact, Cuba is seen as a heroic country elsewhere which is why Castro used to always get the loudest applauses in the UN General Assembly for speaking truth to power (the embargo has been opposed 15 years consecutively in the assembly by votes like 184-4). Only the US has this vendetta against the island. Cuba's human rights record also compares favourably to most other Latin American countries -- think most of Central America with their genocidal wars, as well as South America that went through years of bloody right-wing military dictatorships, supported by the US. Even Mexico sees a lot of persecution and disappearances of activists. However, none gains the notice of the US as much as Cuba which draws most of its ire.

AF_Comm_Guy @ 29:

Here's an interesting little comparison for you. My mother has no health coverage and hasn't had any for years. She has been through strokes, a botched surgey to clear a neck artery, a heart attack and cancer. She has received considerable treatment for all of these problems and has never been booted out of a hospital due to her lack of ability to pay.

I've been in the military for almost 11 years and have had "coverage" the entire time. I was recently diagnosed with type 2 diabetes but there is a pretty strong chance of it clearing up if I lose enough weight (yeah, I got a little chubby in Japan). Because of this one diagnosis I am now facing a medical evaluation board (MEB) and the possibility of being booted out after having received only minimal treatment. There is a pretty strong chance that I will be retained so I'm not terribly worried about it but the idea that I could be kicked out due to something that I can control simply with diet is rather frightening. Any disability I MIGHT receive would be minimal and I absolutely refuse to deal with the VA and that whole beauracratic minefield.

I've seen other service members denied some of the most basic health care in order to save money. Yes, TriCare is just another HMO. It is aptly named, as in they "try to care" but just can't quite bring themselves to do it.

My point is that we seem to be closer to social medicine than a lot of people realize. Often times, people without any health insurance receive better care than those of us who have it. The cost ultimately ends up with the tax payers who just don't realize it.

Yeah but how much of the medical was placed on her credit? That's the thing they can't refuse to treat you if you are sick, but they will put these medical bills on your credit if and when you are not able to pay them. And of course when you are out sick what happens? That's right you can't work, so it's more than likely go to collection. What's more important paying your house and car or those medical bills. That's why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Medical bills (as fucked up as it is to put it against your credit because you can't help getting sick) still affects you credit score. Then there is the dominoe affect. You need to purchase something and they require a credit check. Well everything looks good except for medical bills, that brings your score down and so you pay more on interest then someone who doesn't have as low of a beacon score. Once again the rich get richer and the get poorer. This affects every middle to low income households. It's like stuggeling to keep your head above water. If it hasn't happened to them yet it probably will one day, it's all a matter of time. I'm a tax payer and I have medical insurance why should I have to pay AGAIN when I recieve treatment? I pay for insurance, taxes and yet it's still not enough. It's like fighting a losing battle and nobody cares. The rich just care about your money no matter if it's the last dollar in your pocket or not, they want it!! Thank you Michael Moore for standing up for the people that get pissed on!!!

DirtyDawg @ 25:

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Michael were to give L. King a ration of crap for dumping him for Paris. That would seem to be right where MM wants to be - similar to his taking whathisname on GMA to task for the media's failure to stop the evil empire - bushco, et. al. - back when it had its chance. He could use the opportunity to give King and CNN a shot or three about how they've allowed a once-proud news organization to be 'fauxed-down' by Murdock/Ailes and company. How they've abandoned any semblance of journalistic integrity. Then, get up and walk out of the interview. Let 'em follow that with a re-run of Paris claiming that she's 'found Jesus' - after all it was either that or checking into re-hab.

To hell with 'em all Mike. You don't need this slime-ball any more than you need 'billore'.

------

If I would be Michael, I would walk into the studio, wait until the cameras are rolling and then say to Larry King: "I am sorry, I cannot stay I have to go to Paris. " And leave.

As a Canadian, I can admit that our system of universal health care definitely has it's problems. No arguments there.

No system is perfect but using the excuse that the population is too large to support this level of care is absurd. Universal health care is paid for through taxes. When you have more citizens, you have more tax money. I know I'm simplifying, but when you get down to basics and strip away the BS, this is how it's paid for.

I know "higher" and "taxes" are scary words to put together but it's a low price to pay for your health and the health of your families.

I often hear of Americans bashing our system and it always makes me shake my head in wonder. If our system is so bad, why do so many of you sneak into our country and pretend to be one of us so you can get free health care courtesy of my income tax?

- Rachael M (a Canadian who can get hit by a car whenever I want and not lose everything I've built to pay for it) ;-)