MTV's Kurt Loder does hit job on Michael Moore
You'll know all the right wing tools by their articles. Michael Moore is trying to raise the debate of health care in this country. He is not telling us what system to use to how to solve it---only that ours is horrible. Loder uses a short film from the wingnut Liberty Film Festival as evidence to attack Moore. If Loder wants to use it he could at least mention that it's from a right wing hack shop please.
Mark from NewsCoprse:
The film made its debut at the Liberty Film Festival, which describes itself as “a forum in the heart of Hollywood for conservative and libertarian filmmakers.” In 2006 the festival operations merged with ultra-right wing provocateur David Horowitz‘ Freedom Center...read on
And Loder claimed that Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth was a fraud too: "But Al Gore's environmental alarmism — much of it since heavily questioned — no doubt plays better in Beverly Hills."
Kurt Loder still exists? He still works for MTV? Am I having one of those weird, surreal eighties flashbacks? Next I am going to learn that Bon Jovi has a number one album, or something like that.
Oh, and was I "Frist" for once? Cool!
Kurt Loder... wasn't he on mtv in the 1950s?
Will this madness never end? *sigh*
Was Kurt Loder ever relevant to anything musical or political? I think no.
oh noes, 14 year old, paris hilton worshipping, fast food fed, semi obese, wannabe sluttables are going to think Michael Moore is irrelevant.
I bet they take those talking points and school their daddy a thing or two at the dinner table tonight, you can bet!
oh, and FIRST! - unless this gets deleted. sorry if I'm over the top but come on - think about MTV's target audience. can I get a witness? =)
dang it - sixth? people are quick on the draw...
Hmmm...next I guess MTV will give us Martha Quinn's wisdom on the situation in the Middle East.
Look up "insignificant" in the dictionary and you'll find a picture of Kurt Loder.
kurt loder 80's has been ,if i recall big hair pin head.he should stick to introducing videos and leave the real world news to the adults.
So the right wing swiftboating machine is starting to crank out their "products".
Yes they are Otay...
LOL. A movie review from Curt Loder? I can't really say that I consider him to be much of a source.
AP had an opinion piece masquerading as straight reporting. It purports to be by AP staffers Kevin Freking and Linda Johnson and the story says that Sicko is defective because Moore does not allow the healthcare industry to rebut his premise that access to healthcare in the US is piss poor.
The article also attacks the French and Canadian systems as imperfect and the WHO study that ranks the US as 37th in the world in access to healthcare as outdated (read "old news").
It's a full court press by the health insurance industry and Phrma. We can expect Harry and Louise to be brought out of mothballs and put on television any night now talking about how everyone in Canada comes to the US when they are ill.
"Oh, and Dennis Miller is still funny," said Kurt.
"Hi!! I'm your Video DJ,
I always sound like I am wigged out on Quaalude's!
I wear a Satin baseball jacket everywhere I go!
My JoB! is to help DESTROY, Whats left.. Of your Imagination, by giving you endless doses
of sugar coated mindless garbage!.
So don't be late!
Be sedate!
Be a vegetable at home and thwack on that dial!
If we have our way, even you will believe!
This is the future of ROCK AND ROLL! "
Jello Biafra ... on the Loder's of earth
Here are quick summaries of key data including comparisons of the American health care system relative to other countries and between the states, plus the data on the uninsured, rising health care costs, the woes of Medicare and Medicaid and more.
For all the details, see:
"SiCKO Required Reading: U.S. Health Care by the Numbers."
I have always regarded MTV as a corporate mind-control device. It basically killed off Punk rock and the then growing radicalism of American youth and usurped it with vapid entertainment.
Wasn't he a serious writer for Rolling Stone before he was on MTV? Is he trying to rediscover integrity?
rduke @ 16:
Very apt rduke. Thanks, Jello rocks!
Don't forget, MTV was the channel that said they didn't want to enter into partisa politics and pulled the plug on Nine Inch Nails playing at one of their awards shows a few years back because they had anti-war, anti-Bush imagery in their set.
Though I have to say one thing about Sicko (besides the fact that I loved it), I've only visited Paris once but I was surprised by his choice of an "average French family". I don't mind him excluding the fact the people of France pay huge taxes or that their country is in debt due in large part to its NHS, but I'm curious to know how he qualified that family as an example of a French family living an average French life, especially if they lived in Paris. Still though, it made me miss Paris and want to move there for good.
DHavok @ 21:
What's so pathetic is that it wasn't even going to be an anti-Bush image; it was just his picture. Same as with Madonna/American Life video. It wasn't anti-Bush. Remember when they convinced the American people that anything you did or said that wasn't decidedly pro-Bush, pro-America or pro-war must therefore be anti-Bush, anti-America, anti-troop. I'll always remember that.
um...why theFUCK would anyone care what MTV's Kurt Loder thinks...or says...or does ???
lodar=a $%^&ing whore
but lets not forget, mtv owner viacom owns the daily show and colbert too..
Well, John, at least the attempted swiftboating of someone strongly associated with health care reform may well end up sinking this swiftboating attempt, if Moore plays it right. I won't yet go so far as to say "bring it on!", but judging by the response to his movie, I'm close... ;)
Actually I think that this is Kurt Loder's attempt to become relevant. Let's face facts; Michael Moore isn't going to hit back at Kurt Loder. Loder is an MTV hack that carries little to no journalistic weight outside of the Viacom building on Broadway in Manhattan. I saw him try to be a serious journalist on MTV and *OTHER* Viacom channels several times.
I think he actually believes he's creating a pattern of himself much in the same historical context as say.... Jan Wenner (the publisher of Rolling Stone). Kurt actually is a contributing editor to Rolling Stone and thus fancies himself a journalist. The differences are glaring though: Jan Wenner started out with a great idea and continues to write today; Kurt Loder is mounting criticism of a brilliant idea (Sicko) without having a strong journalistic leg to stand on. He did break the key story on MTV of Kurt Cobain's death, that's pretty important compared to health care for everyone.
I read his review (Mr. Loder's) and it was pretty weak. This is the line that was his undoing "Unfortunately, Moore is also a con man of a very brazen sort, and never more so than in this film. " He goes on to say that Moore cherry picks his facts and manipulates his audience. He seems to have missed the point that this is a film makers editorial, not a documentary.
He also does something that profoundly irritated me; he suggested that Michael Moore was wrong by suggesting that the government should step in and further "regulate" health care. Did we see the same movie? That wasn't what he was suggesting. He suggesting that for profit health care is excluding the millions that don't represent cashflow to insurers and the healthcare industry.
Further, Kurt goes on to say that the Post Office and the DMV are proof in point that the government doesn't work. Huh? The US Post Office moves more parcels of mail daily than any other shipper in the world. Frankly, they have their faults but overall they get the job done with flying colors. They are also self financed. Yes, the taxpayer no longer pays for the Post Office. The DMV is a state and local government agency. How he crossed the US Post Office and the DMV as two worthless agencies is beyond me. So if I understand Mr. Loder we don't really need a DMV or it should be privatized? Maybe Mr. Loder should go to a DMV outside of NY City, some of them work quite well when there aren't 2 million other people trying to get a license.
It's unfortunate, I read the rest of the article and the bile Kurt spills is overwhelming. He stays critical to the end, refusing to admit the film is about getting people to think and see the other side of an arguement. Our health care system is broken and that we need to think (the keyword here Kurt is think) to reform it. Michael isn't saying everyone else is perfect, he's just saying we need to give it some thought and than press our legislators to do more than declare war so that we can control finite resources like oil. My review of your review is that you should have given it a bit more thought, Rolling Stone would have.
M
So when the fuck did Kurt Loder become an expert on anything?
Loder's always been a dick. One of my favorite memories of being in miy early 20's is being in the Tower Records in NYC at Broadway and 4th with a friend and seeing Loder on the other side of the CD racks. We whispered deliberately loudly so the prick could hear us - "There's fucking Kurt Loder," I said. "Let's get him!" my friend replied. "Yeah!" I seethed. Loder bolted out the door.
What is wrong with Kurt, CNN, and Jay Leno too? It seems if Michael Moore does not let an insurance tycoon direct 50% of his film for him, then he is not "presenting the other side". And therefore what? Does the public need to disregard it then?
Journalism is not about balance, its about reality. The reality is our county can do a lot better than being at the bottom of ANY list ranking industrialized nations in getting access to health care.
Ya think that piece of corporate hackery from the Liberty Film Festival presents the other side? My 8-ball sez no. Why is it media hacks always claim that the left should provide the right with a platform and be "fair and balanced" while the right can do what ever it wants? Oh yeah, 'cause that's what they're paid for.
So Loder did what he and others accuse Moore of doing: inaccurate by omission.
Off topic again, I'm waiting for the right to make inferences about CNN.com's new look being a little commie-like.
This no talent twit called MTV the worst thing to ever happen to music and then went to work for them. Do us all a favor and go back to covering the Spice Girls and leave the real news to the pros.
Anybody who has seriously studied film knows that all documentaries select which facts to present and have an editorial point of view whether or not they fess up to it. There is no such animal as a non-biased documentary. Besides, Moore's work exists to present a viewpoint which is excluded from the Corporate Media. That's why it's people are willing to pay to see it. Micheal Moore's success proves that the reaon that the Corporate Media excludes left wing opinion from the airwaves is due to market forces is rubbish.
Loder has is hand in the rotten egg cookie jar. Poor fella has to bend over to keep his job and not in a good way. Too bad that anyone watching Mtv today will see him as the puts he is and mute him or hit the next channel please button.
Kurt Loder is 62 years old writing for MTV. I think he stays at MTV so he can pretend he was cool once.
In his movie review Loder basically quotes Moore as saying lack of healthcare caused 18 MILLION deaths last year when Moore said 18 THOUSAND.
How much you want to bet Loder's career as a rock music celebrity will never be mentioned by the right wing hacks?
"Daggumit, Bubba, these Hollywood celebrities are always getting involved in areas they know nothing about."
"I agree, Cletus. Let's go watch MTV demolish the Health Care reformers, dude! "
Loder works for MTV. Enough said.
Loder reminds me, almost uncannily, of the news anchor who gets punched out at the end of Diehard, Richard Thornburg. 'Reporting' like Loder's does do the service of exposing the shills from the credible journalists, much as movie critics get vetted over panning a good movie or worse, propping up a stinker.
Loder claims Moore said 18,000,000 will die from no health insurance. Wrong! I think he said 18,000. Talk about "Doctoring"! If you can't get your facts straight in an article about fact checking, you should stick to your day job.
I watched the video. Most of the people they interviewed that had to wait for surgery had non life threatening concerns. Knee surgery because of worn cartilage, elderly wanting hip replacements and other nonessential operations. My mother is 89 years old and lives with her athritis and doesn't whine about it. These people think they deserve to live life with no suffering ever. I've got news for them. We have to wait for surgery in the states too. The guy that would arrange for Canadians to come to the states for treatment said they never had to wait. I guarantee that they had to wait for appointments and surgery to be scheduled. They didn't just come across the border and get treated. Plus they had to pay a hefty price for it.
I guess Kurt isn't getting his "money for nothin".
The attacks on Michael Moore have only begun. The attacks do, however, establish a fact. The health care "system" in the US is not defensible leaving only one option-attack Michael Moore. If what we have is defensible that would be done.
While Canadians may have to wait for elective surgery, US citizens who can't afford even basic care are dying.
This is so sweet! I loved the part about Al Gore's environmentalism playing better in Beverly Hills. The comic genius of Loder is compelling. He blathers on like a true wingnut, failing to get even the most elementary facts straight about either Moore or Gore, then starts pointing to Beverly Hills as the place where the vast majority of the world's scientists reside. His satirical blast at the right wing is truly a howl...and they say that satire is dead. Hah!
Sue, as the old lawyer's maxim goes---if you can't attack the case, attack the man. I'm sure there will be plenty more of these Steaming Loders hurling their garbage at Michael Moore.
Anyone got a link so I can contact this puke and tell him to FUCK OFF!
Haven't watched the tube in going on 2 decades. So, i the time I threw my TV out and now, has MTV been subverted into a neocon propganda outlet , too? Would have thought, once upon a time that Moore and MTV would have been natural allies. Just shows that there is nothing that the corporations can't corrupt and befoul.
The whole purpose of MTV is to sanitize Rock and Roll and make it safe for the economic elite, corporations and Republicans
46,000,000 uninsured and there's even got to be a debate about whether the system is good or not. That's disgusting. Dah, yeah, it needs to be looked at, seriously!!!
Kurt Loder means about as much to me as Dee Snyder...
Another wannabe tool trying to be relevant in wankerdom. Next, please.
O.T
I was just clicking through channels with the remote when I got to Faux. The 1/2 hour news hour was having another repeat of their show 2 weeks ago. I know the right wingers have a short memoriy span but isn't this a little crazy?
CNN, surprisingly, actually did a pretty good job of fact checking "Sicko." The sad thing is, is that so many mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers would rather get their info from a corporate tool like Loder than from a news organization. The corporate paymasters at MTV know this.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/28/sicko.fact.check/index.html
"He is not telling us what system to use to how to solve it—only that ours is horrible." - John Amato
Oh you have GOT to be kidding me.
He is NOT telling what system to use? Are you for real? Have you even SEEN the movie?
To sum the movie up for those who don't know how to either listen or understand the plot, this is what Michael Moore is saying:
-UNIVERSAL healthcare could be started in the US if those in government were to make it a law-
That's it. This is what Michael Moore wants.
Mr John Amato, you are being entirely disingenuous and incorrect when you claim Moore is not giving us any solutions. He constantly goes on TV, he went to the Senate, he wrote articles ALL advocating for the US to try universal healthcare. This is no secret.
As such, universal healthcare implies VERY specific circumstances and ways of organization. He tried VERY hard to show people that he is not on the same side as "evil communists", or "socialized medicine". The facts of the matter is what he wants IS just that. You cannot have universal healthcare "for free". He keeps using the term "free healthcare". See, his lack of economic understanding forces him to conclude that universal healthcare is somehow free.
It is not. It is a HUGE drain on an economy. In Canada, it is a HUGE drain to the health of Canadians, as ironic as that seems. In the US, the war is a HUGE drain to the health of Americans. Since the US likes war, they have no healthcare. Canada is not at war, so they have universal healthcare. The solution to the problem should be done in steps. First, end the war. No discussion on economics can be done if all the money is being wasted in a bullshit war. Then, only then, can any legitamite solution be carried forward.
Please Mr. Amato, you can't support Michael Moore and what he is doing, and then deny the existence of the only solution that is possible if we frame the debate in his terms. He is complaining how 50 million people don't have health insurance. So what? Why is this a problem? See, many poor people from around the world come to the US in search of prosperity. Compared to what they had before, a life in the US without health insurance is way better than before. The fact that so many people don't have insurance is a reflection of how many people, rich and poor, want to be in the US.
If other countries were as attractive as the US, then THEY would have large numbers of uninsured people, because THOSE countries would attract all the people. To complain that 50 million people in the US do not have insurance is the same as arguing that the most popular city park has more homeless people than the least popular parks, and so that best park is "bad" because of all the homeless people!!!
How many Chinese don't have insurance? How many Africans don't have it? We should not go by how many people have this or that. We should go by how FREE people are. Free countries are ALWAYS the healthiest. The US is no longer a free country anymore. The US is now fascist. I won't be surprised if MORE people cannot afford insurance as the years go by.
If you want to fix healthcare, fix the mentalities of all those people who want the US to be run like a socialist country (modern liberal intellectuals, not the classical liberals and the neo-conservatives).
Modern liberalism and neo-conservatism is DESTROYING freedom and turning the US into a backwater republic. They want to fix things, but they use bad methods. Then when the methods fail, they blame other people. I have yet to see left wing sites or right wing sites hold their constituent politicians accountable. I see ZERO percent of them taking responsibility for their own philosophy. All I see is blaming one side of the political spectrum and extolling the other.
THIS is the real source for the US troubles. Everyone wants to take credit for when things go well, but they blame others for when things go wrong. I don't understand this at all. BOTH sides create problems. Every idiot who takes the time to look at them can see it. The problem is that too many people are afraid of making mistakes and appearing to be incorrect.
The left does this by blaming bad people for the failure of socialism.
The right does this by blaming bad people for the failure of US world domination.
BOTH sides are wrong. They are both wrong because they don't believe in real, true, valid inidividual freedom. They both think that each person means nothing and is only as important as the group to which they belong. They are both KILLING the idea and philosophy of the supreme individual. This rot from within is going to kill the US as a country if things keep going the way they are going.
Kurt Loder was a zombie when he was in his "prime". Now he's carrying water for the undead.
I'm waiting for one of Michael Moore's critics to defend health care in this country. Waiting. Waiting. Waiting. Still waiting.
As if I needed another reason not to watch MTV....I have nearly 100 reasons not to watch it, now MTV has added one more. Who the fuck are they trying to impress with trashing Moore? Republicans? Oh, like they love MTV.
Fortunately, the people who watch MTV can't read anyway.
Thanks for posting this, John. From the looks of this thread, Kurt Loder is getting what he deserves.
wasn't he the Fairy Fawcett dude who used to do Headgivers Ball?
This guy has been so consistantly wrong you almost have to pitty him. Almost!
Re: #55
I think you have it backwards. Without the group, the individual is nothing. Humans are social creatures. We have evolved this way for millions of years, it is our nature as primates to rely on one another for our survival. The cult of the individual is nonsense. The United States is already the most individualistic minded-country on the planet, so it is no wonder we have the problems that we do.
Private Freedom said: "He is complaining how 50 million people don’t have health insurance. So what? Why is this a problem?"
How compassionate of you. It is utterly absurd to compare the number of uninsured in the U.S. to Africa. Africa is not the richest country in the world. Africa is not the ONLY industrialized country that fails to offer its citizens health care.
And universal health care would not be a HUGE drain on an economy. It would SAVE money. If you add up all the funds currently being wasted in our present system it would be more than the cost of a universal system.
I wonder if any of the wingnuts watching these hit-piece films ever ask themselves, "(the movie they are attacking) JUST CAME OUT. How do they already have a counter movie already filmed that supposedly responds to the accusations in a movie that was still being filmed when they started?"
Seems like such an obvious question.
Private Freedom @ 55:
Well, our favorite Ayn Rand devotee weighs in on the topic. Of course, he is not living in the US and has access to a universal health care system, but don't let that get in the way of a good rant. On the positive side, though, he didn't mention Ron Paul. Thank Christ for small favors.
Moore's film resonates because so many people have experienced the shitty-ness of our health care system.
Every review I've read about the film, every fact-checking expedition I've seen about it says that the film is basically factually correct. Sure, there are a few things here or there that are debatable, but the overall message doesn't change.
I don't see Moore being successfully smeared for this one - although, they will try. Too many people have experienced health care nightmares.
Guess Loder is a right-wing hack.
Trying to program the kids from an early age, no doubt.
[...] Clark Link to Article al gore MTV’s Kurt Loder does hit job on Michael Moore » Posted at Crooks [...]
[...] Efron Link to Article michael moore MTV’s Kurt Loder does hit job on Michael Moore » Posted at [...]
Herbert @ 51:
Aren't they the same guy?
Private Freedom @ 55:
"...If other countries were as attractive as the US, then THEY would have large numbers of uninsured people, because THOSE countries would attract all the people. To complain that 50 million people in the US do not have insurance is the same as arguing that the most popular city park has more homeless people than the least popular parks, and so that best park is "bad" because of all the homeless people..."
You ignoramus. I used to think you were harmless fun-but now I know you're a total monkey spanking faux intellectual.
FOAD, Dude. And do it uninsured, in a country that makes you pay to fix and maintain your health. Your attitude is, in and of itself, sick-making.
:evil: Tool.
kurt has ALWAYS been a tool
The insurance companies are working overtime and buying whoever they can to hit Moore and his film.
I just sent this note in response to this article by Loder:
***
Loder says: "(how does he [Moore] know 18 million people will die this year because they have no health insurance?)"
Your review is junk and the above mistake is typical of the right-wing knee-jerk claims about this movie. Moore claimed "18,000" not 18 million and his source is:
Insuring America's Health: Principles and Recommendations, Institute of Medicine, January 2004.
Perhaps you should check your facts when you write a hit piece. As with his other movies, Moore provides extensive documentation of his claims. You can find the reference for the above claim here, second one down:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup/
Darrel.
Question for Private Freedom:
If America's private health care system is so great, why do 65% or so of Americans want nationalized health care?
And why do many countries with nationalized health care want to keep it?
Miss Kitty and Gregory,
Both of you have not contributed anything to the discussion nor stated a rebuttle to what I said. Gregory, you merely alluded to novel writers and think that is sufficient to discredit ideas. Miss Kitty, you merely insulted me in the desperate attempt to make me feel guilty of what I think.
See, if you two stay within your frame of mind, you will have no choice but to attack the messenger and not the message. That is a sign of ignorance.
Sounds like pantLoder is beefing up his credentials for a future at FUX News.
Here's the reply I posted to Loder. It's not art, but since I was skeptical that any opposing viewpoint would ever be published, I decided not to spend too much time on it.
Not sure why they won't publish it. Maybe it's the whole "suck eggs" thing...
Private Freedom @ 55:
It is a HUGE drain on an economy. In Canada, it is a HUGE drain to the health of Canadians, as ironic as that seems.
DAR
Actually that's rubbish. Canada spends considerably less than the US per capita and gets far better results. Consider:
"In 2002 the United States spent $5,267 per person on health care. Canada spent $2,931; Germany spent $2,817; Britain spent only $2,160. Yet the United States has lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality than any of these countries." --Paul Krugman, NYT, 11/07/05
More:
"...Canada ranks above the United States in virtually every measure of health--including outcomes for heart disease, cancer and diabetes? Woldwide, Canada ranks ninth compared to 17th for the United States. To make the issue even more confusing, the US spends 13.7 percent of its gross domestic product on health, while Canada only spends 8.7 percent. And despite spending 13.7 percent of GDP on health care, 15.6 percent of the American population is uninsured -- more than 45 million people." --NWA Times, pg. 8D, 7/3/05
I lived in Canada for 21 years and know a little about the topic. Canadians are overwhelming very fond of their health-care system and perhaps in part because just across the border they see what a disaster we are having with the pure greed based system.
Albatross and Darrel:
Loved your letters (or emails). I'm thinking of sending an email directly to MTV (or Loder's boss).
Private Freedom @ 76:
PF.
You have no "message" save your tired old "free market will cure all" libertarian talking points. The Ayn Rand reference is short hand for that and it is heartening to see that you are kicking her to the curb, a real sign of maturity. However, since you have told us that you are not living in the US and are a reserve naval officer with a non-US rank, it is fair to say that you are living and studying in a country with universal health care. Are you refusing medical care on philosophical grounds?
sah @ 24:
Hey, really good point sah!
Anybody who is ignorant enough to believe the American health care system doesn't suck obviously doesn't have to pay for health insurance or they've never been sick enough to need medical care. I work in a doctor's office and I have leukemia. I can tell you from first hand experience from more than one perspective, the system totally sucks.
Kurt Loder hasn't been relevant in over 20 years. Like I'm going to take anything he has to say seriously. The dude is a hack.
Otay @ 75:
Waiting...
Darrel @ 79:
I had no idea Loder was such a whack job.Pity.
The man was spinning so hard I had to shield my eyes from the sparks flying off of him.
When you say you watch mtv for the Music that is like saying you read Playboy for the articles. I didn't know has-been Loder was still around.
Well, PF has no message, just a mantra: "free market, free market, free market".
I guess I won't hold my breath on an answer to any of the statements/questions made to him.
Maybe PF left. He clearly doesn't have health insurance/care issues so how could he understand?
Ron:
Just because she doesn't whine about it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. And how is being able to walk correctly not "essential"? Or do people in your family just drag their knuckles like the rest of the Republican Party?
Yeah, we had to come across the border just to get cheaper medicine.
Private Freedom:
Western Europe was on our side during the Cold War, and they are able to have universal health care without stabbing us in the back...
Here's a link to a good progressive organization in Canada dedicated to preserving the health care system.Lots of good factual information.
http://www.canadians.org/healthcare/index.html
much of it since heavily questioned
Uh by whom and what parts?
I doubt any reputable scientist in or outside the US was one of those people...
Jesus. I wonder if Jann Wenner gives these guys complexes or something... seems he turns too many into right wingnuts.
Otay @ 84:
Ever notice how when someone asks a question or catches these people on their bulls**t they disappear?
Private Freedom @ 76:
You are a moron. You have no idea what I was attempting to do. You are in no position to point out ignorance, unless it is your own.
And learn to spell if you are accusing people of ignorance. :roll:
I am not a tool!
I think I dislike Libertarians even more than I dislike neoconservatives. They are the ultimate spoiled, narcissistic brats, unwilling to admit or acknowledge the existence of other people and that they, no matter how much they try to smoke it away, are NOT self-sufficient. Their denial of interdependence is based on the tired and banal critique of socialism - there will always be some jerks who won't do their part to bring benefit to everyone - they're talking about themselves.
Even worse, their jargon is so thickly troweled on and is so preachy that they sound like Scientologists or old Communists.
Go peddle yourself on the Free Market. We're not buying.
And take Ron Paul with you.
Milo
He said Loader. hehehehhehe
when mtv joins the msm, you know we are all doomed.
we will not see a change in the health care system during our lifetimes
we will not, because although we are approaching the 20th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall, and the death of the soviet system, the old guard of the cold war are still around, and they have indoctrinated enuf americans to fear the word "socialized"
we will not, because the reagan revolution tought many that it is more important to care about oneself then of the society and people around you
we will not, because the bushies and neocons have taught people that fear is an end to itself.
i am glad that moore has made this movie....but in the end, it will be like the rest of his projects
people will get angry, demand that something is done...then the wingnuts will attack, and moore will again be declared enemy number 1.
The majority of the 'market' want universal health care in America.
Kurt Lod o' crap!
Isn't he in an old folks home or something by now? Did "the kids" ever like him?
Does anyone remember the old I, Claudius series from the 80s? There`s a great quote by Claudius (Derek Jacobi) once he`s emperor & realizes he`s surrounded by intrigue & treachery.
`Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.`
This is what needs to happen with our media and our leaders, we need to know who are the real professionals and who are the whores. Let the poisonous media personalities show themselves, to stop hiding in the shadows, and declare what kind of character they really have. And yes, Mr. Loder is seen by millions of young people as an actual `journalist.` He does have influence. I didn`t realize until today that he`s bought & paid for.
This is going to be another great legacy of Michael Moore. The Corporate Dictators love to stay in the shadows, they want their hands to remain invisible. This movie will not let that happen: it`s too strong, it`s too convincing, it`s too clear & concise. `A power used is a power lost.`
I guess the fact that I had to use google to find out who the hell Kurt Loder is tells me how important that douchewad is. I was like, oh, that guy. At least Kurt Loder can now claim to not be just irrelevant.
We really need a "Truth In Media" doctrine for political issues. Either tell the truth, promptly correct or clarify any mistakes or misrepresentations, or get banned from reporting anything political.
Suetonius @ 100:
You're right that events like this can be a great litmus test to show where pundits and others really stand. David Gregory trying to legitmize Coulter was telling. So were the attacks on Gore and now the attacks on Moore.
I saw Sicko yesterday, and it's quite powerful. To Moore's critics — show us a single one of you that has done one tenth of what Moore's done to raise awareness of this issue or to offer solutions that actually benefit the public versus already-wealthy corporations. If you can't, shut up.
[Deleted. The topic of the thread is not global climate change or right wing denial "documentaries"]
Angry One @ 17:
Angryone... good post! I haven't had a chance to review in depth and check the vitals of the studies but it looks pretty good so far.
Too often this blogg degenerates into "snark wars", nice to see someone posting facts and figures for a change.
Thanks
He is probably just a boomer with drug flash backs and thinks it is real and we give a shit.
Darrel @ 79:
DAR
Actually that's rubbish. Canada spends considerably less than the US per capita and gets far better results. Consider:
"In 2002 the United States spent $5,267 per person on health care. Canada spent $2,931; Germany spent $2,817; Britain spent only $2,160. Yet the United States has lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality than any of these countries." --Paul Krugman, NYT, 11/07/05
More:
"...Canada ranks above the United States in virtually every measure of health--including outcomes for heart disease, cancer and diabetes? Woldwide, Canada ranks ninth compared to 17th for the United States. To make the issue even more confusing, the US spends 13.7 percent of its gross domestic product on health, while Canada only spends 8.7 percent. And despite spending 13.7 percent of GDP on health care, 15.6 percent of the American population is uninsured -- more than 45 million people." --NWA Times, pg. 8D, 7/3/05
I lived in Canada for 21 years and know a little about the topic. Canadians are overwhelming very fond of their health-care system and perhaps in part because just across the border they see what a disaster we are having with the pure greed based system.
Now, now... if you keep hitting Private Freedom with facts and figures you'll just freak the little sot out. He traded reality in for an empty ideology a long time ago. His response is usually an excessively long rant that is incoherent, devoid of facts or any basis in reality and all that he accomplishes is showing off his ignorance and pissing the site monitors off.
While its fun to rip into his BS, it is a waste of time because he will never respond to anyone who engages him on issues for which he has no answer(which is most of them). The best you'll get out of him is an infantile "tis not" and that is about it.
What do you expect from someone whose cock and balls are the property of CBS?
Do you think the execs at Paramount, MTV Films and Dreamworks want you spending your money on another company's film this week?
Do you think the execs at CBS, VH1, MTV, the WB, UPN, etc., etc., want to offend some of their biggest advertisers, big pharma?
Are you kidding, they'll do ANYTHING to kiss their ass. Think of all the pharma ads on all the channels owned by CBS.
All it takes is one call from one big exec at Pfizer or Merck directly to Sumner Redstone to threaten pulling all that money.
That's precisely why the media could never be liberal. Particularly with the current configuration of half a dozen conglomerates. Nobody's gonna rock that aircraft carrier.
Expect a lot more slamming.
Totally out of left field, but if the US had a better than dark-ages health care system, could you imagine how much less spam we'd all get?
I am so sick of emails about cheap meds.
=my2c
BC
Kurt Loder has never been the same since Madonna smothered him with her tits. Oxygen deprivation to the brain or something. Now, he has no more reason than a functional retard. Tho some claim.. he's always been that way.
Since punk wasn't even music, let alone rock, I'm glad it was killed off. By the way, MTV had nothing to do with it. Arena bands like Foreigner, Boston, Journey, Asia, Kansas and others who actually knew how to play music sent the punk losers back to their flophouses and garages where they belonged. Good riddance.
I didn't even know that guy was still alive. What the hell is he doing on MTV though? I realize that MTV is horrifyingly crappy - MTV is to television as MySpace is to the internet - but I thought they kicked all their (shallow) personalities to the curb when they hit puberty?
He's looking horrible too - his skin looks like one of those old leather "medicine ball" things you see in 3 Stooges reruns.
Follow the money. The first hit in Google News for many hours on Sunday was {'Sicko': "Heavily Doctored, By Kurt Loder"}. It was early Sunday morning about 03-0400 CDT, and it was again Sunday afternoon after I awoke.
Google has been soliciting ads from big pharma. Found it on some blog I can't remember where, on Sunday. I'm old at 66 and can't remember the 50-70 sitechecks I do daily. It's up to you energetic youngsters to ferret this out.
It's your future. the Google motto is no longer "Don't be evil"; it's "Don't be evil unless we can make money from it."
Moore's position (as far as I've seen it presented by him in Moore-NYSE.wmv) seems to "have them by the balls" on this one.
He did a bit of juxstapos in columbine that bothered me (not to mention shitting on the old man at the end), but for the most part he presents well and raises good points.
His latest piece is probably the greatest appeal to commonality that we face as a nation (and world).
*hearts to all*
Saw the movie. Let the head rolling begin.
asdf @ 105:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but a bunch of the scientists featured in that programme have publicly removed their endorsed once they show the edited version. The editor/director -a Mr. Durkin who has nil scientific standing- went on a psychotic episode when a few of the people in the film not only comforted him on the editing, but they demanded their names to be removed from the piece. Basically this Mr. Durkin is trying to sell people that global warming is due to sun spot activity, which is at best laughable and at worst some sort of industrial strength denial.
which/whose??
Kurt Loder was old when i was a kid and i'm 35 now.
Kurt Loder still seems like Frankenstein hangin out with twenty year olds. Fewer Americans get their news from MTV than from any other source. Get a real job Kurt.
this is not kurt loder's first hit job, either.
and last night i happened to catch the other mtv news twerp that's been there entirely too long interviewing the singer from Bright Eyes, who has been extremely outspoken on politics/bush/war, lyrically speaking, and it seemed as though john whatshisface was really trying to make him look like an ass, practically congratulating him for being a little less political here recently.
mtv is just jealous because they produce nothing but CRAP. my super sweet sixteen, and laguna beach? as an expose of excessive wealth and american children raise in it, that stuff might could be good. the real world? the first season was okay, but after this long, it's so canned. music? what music?
Mark @ News Corpse @ 63:
But the money wouldn't get filtered through the wallets of the corporations that fund our politicians.
Kurt Loder...isn't he dead? My mistake...probably won't be too much longer...one more binge weekend in Tijuana ought to do it...
Kurt Loder? KURT LODER?! Since when has anyone cared about what Kurt Loder has had to say about anything?
Kurt Loder my ass. What does Martha Quinn think?
Loader's piece, though skewed against anything non-capitalist, is still essentially correct. I live in Central Ontario, Canada, where you would expect the kind of health care Moore suggests we have routine access to. Unfortunately it doesn't exist and Moore's film is not as accurate as it claims.
Moore's film is doing the excellent and much needed job of bringing the topic out into the open to make it discussable at a level above mere grumbling, but the truth is that Canada is in peril of becoming a completely for profit system also.
Insurance companies, since the 80's, have been infiltrating our gov't, to the point where ex-Premier Bob Rae installed offices for them in Queen's Park. Since that time I have been warning my fellow Canadians that they intend to put a stranglehold on services that will make us beg to pay for services. That's now happened. Wait times are so long that the average comment heard is, "why can't I just give them my VISA and get this over with?!"
My wife and I live in Lindsay, a Toronto bedroom community, and the second largest retirement destination in Canada. There are no doctors taking new patients. They haven't been for almost 3 years. The new arrivals that are accepting patient require an application form to be filled out that weeds out the sick ones. I'm not making this up. One of the several doctor friends that hang with said bluntly, "I have to see 50 patients a day to make any money so I don't really have time to deal with those who are really sick." He makes about $150k, drives an SLK and golfs on Wednesdays.
I could go on at length about stoke victims who only get 6 months worth of "free" treatment then they are on their own - at the cost of about $5k every 6 months - or that we get billed for everything other than the doctor - syringes, shots, IV's, tongue depressors - any disposable medical tools. And the ol' 15 buck crutches are non-existent. They give you a loaner pair that will get you to the Med Store where you can buy them starting an $100. And really important operations, though much cheaper, are still pretty expensive and only partially covered.
OHIP, our gov't payment system, is fatally broken. People are dying because of it. But even more to the point is this: our doctors are merely civil servants at the end of the day. Because of this there is No Disincentive For Failure.
Let me say that again - there is no disincentive for failure. So most of the doctors here are not that good at what they do, they don't have to be. As my own doctor is fond of saying, even after he almost killed me, "People die all the time from things beyond our control, so what are you going to do?". You can't sue them, well you can - I've tried - but even the lawyers aren't interested because in effect you are suing the gov't.
You die - your Dr still gets paid.
Still want a Canadian style health care system?
msm=nwo
"Next up on MTV Kurt Loder brings you a special educational series on the truth of Creation Science..."
David Bastocchio (sp?) interviewed Michael Moore on last Friday's NOW. Bastocchio mentioned that some people have pointed out faults in other countries medical delivery systems, including those held up in the movie.
Moore said, surely Americans are smart enough to set up a system that copies what works and avoid what doesn't.
Makes sense to me.
Why do conservatives think Americans are stupid?
much of it heavily questioned
A comically, bogus phrase. A tip-off that the user has nothing worth saying.
Jelperman @ 112:
I gag at their music.
Those were all corporate rock, and I said good riddance when they left.
They were the previous generations Brittany, Christina, Backstreet Boys, N'Syncs etc.
But then I prefered New Wave over punk, but MTV tamed that too. Who the hell was ever a fan of Eddie Rabbit anyway?
plays well in Beverly Hills? I'd think the rich would be more oblivious to what's going on, as their lifestyles allow them to be...
"Liberty" Film Festival? Tell those Goebbels gobblers to take Orson Welles' mug off their god damn banner.
Private Freedom @ 55:
Thank you!!! SOMEBODY gets it!!!!!!
DHavok @ 21:
Much as I was angry at Clinton's policies... he at least was trying to SLOW DOWN the fascism in this country -- without Democratic support, no less.
Could you imagine MTV pulling a set because it had Anti-Clinton imagery?
The myth of Liberal media gets harder to swallow.
Bush is Corporate, and the message is war.
I apologize if anyone is offended by this but I was quite affected by the posts I saw here today. I'm really quite shocked at the level of discourse on this board. I'll admit that this is the first time I've read the comments so I don't know if this is how it always is but aren't we supposed to be the intelligent party? All I see are ad hominem attacks against Loder. These don't accomplish anything accept to give the appearance that you can't argue properly and have no rebuttals to his points. Do you give yourself kudos for who posts the cleverest sophomoric insult. No wonder rightwingers stay away from debates on these boards. The comments don't do the articles posted justice. How are you supposed to convince anyone of anything if your first response is to insult. This is Ann Coulters tactic and I thought we were supposed to abhor that tactic. But I digress.
In Loder's article, if you read between the lines,
you have to notice the huge problem that does exist:
"When governments attempt to regulate the balance between a limited supply
of health care and an unlimited demand for it they're inevitably forced to ration
treatment." -Kurt Loder ('Sicko': Heavily Doctored)
Does this sound complete? Not to me. Here's how I break it down.
-There will always be an unlimited demand for health care.
-There will always be a limited supply of healthcare.
I'd like to see anyone try to argue these two points.
This necessitates rationing health care.
There is no way around this in ANY system.
So without explaining this the fallacy of false dichotomy is committed; whether
to let things stay the way they are and have no rationing or to turn
things over to the government and be subject to the evil rationing police.
Once explained we see what the true question really is; since rationing is inevitable
who gets to regulate how healthcare should be rationed?
For profit organizations, whose bottom line is the almighty dollar
or the government who is charged with protecting its citizenry?
Now, I'll give Loder the fact that the government, right now, wouldn't do a very
good job of this. Right now it is being run by a group who thinks regulations are
bad as a founding principal. But, in the long run would you give the power to
corporations which are driven by profits or those who rule with the consent of
the governed? I choose the latter.
asdf @ 105:
DAR
Ahh, this is off topic but the Warming Swindle movie shown by Britain's Channel Four is complete crap from start to finish. If you would do a little investigating you would learn to not waste your time with this junk. Realclimate.org, a site run by climate scientists, has a nice debunk of it here:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled/
The following background on the clowns who made "Swindled" reveals a lot:
***
"Distortions are hardly suprising. This programme was not a scientific documentary in any normal sense: it was a piece of political polemic.
The writer and presenter of the programme was Martin Durkin who is closely affiliated with the Revolutionary Communist Party which has a strong ideological opposition to environmental science. In 1997 Channel Four was forced to issue its first ever broadcast apology over extreme editing distortions in a similar series knocking environmentalism. It is a great shame that Carl Wunsch and the other legitimate scientists in the programme did not do a quick web search on Durkin before agreeing to contribute
There was only one scientific advisor on the programme, Martin Livermore, whose sole scientific qualification is that he is the Director of a web-based think tank, The Scientific Alliance. The Alliance was set up by in 2001 by Robert Durward, the fiercely anti-green director of the British Aggregates Association, and Foresight Communications, a Westminster public relations and lobbying company, to "counter scare-mongering by the so-called green lobby". The Scientific Alliance has no affiliation with any recognised scientific body but, like most of the contributors to the programme, it does have very strong links with the US public relations and lobbying organisations that have been so effective in setting the Bush agenda on climate change.
Many of the people who appeared on the programme were captioned to institutions and universities that they left years ago in order to pursue their political campaigning work: Fred Singer, Patrick Michaels, Philip Stott and Tim Ball are among them. Richard Lindzen is a practising scientist, but a highly politicised and criticised one. All of them have close associations with the Washington public relations and lobby groups that front for the fossil fuel companies and the libertarian right (whose ideology is often strangely indistinguishable from the Revolutionary Communists. Strange things happen at the political extremes).
Is it any surprise then, that these "scientists" were so persuasive. Most of the people on the programme are professional communicators who are more familiar with the chat show than the lab. Of course they give good interviews - it is what they do for a living.
And let us not forget that they are effective because they have a very willing audience. We would all like to believe them. Wouldn't it be wonderful to believe that the science is unsettled, that all that carbon dioxide that we are pumping into the atmosphere really has no effect, and that we do not have to worry about the future."
***
Darrel.
ysbaddaden @ 127:
Um, because the vapid, dangerous people who they are afraid of ... is themselves.
Do you notice how everything they've said of the left; "they will do anything to win. They are perverse, they are twisted, they are trying to dumb down our schools. Is exactly what THEY do. It's called projection.
And on the run-up to the Bush Dark Ages, we should have paid attention to what Rush and Hannity were saying about us; because they were taking the flaws of their base and projecting them onto Liberals. When you want to rationalize stealing elections, warmongering, and debasing our countries morals and honors -- you say; "everybody does it -- but they do it worse."
I think everyone here can relate, that around 2001 we started getting more of our news from the internet, or maybe turned on Air America or the personalities who eventually formed it. We were shocked that we seemed to be dealing with angry children. "How could people be this angry and dumb?" I immediately thought, there must be paid trolls.... nobody could be this way without a financial incentive, and still be able to write in sentences. I still don't abandon that idea, but it is an even worse concept that there could be people throwing rocks at Liberals as they try to pull them up out of the pit they have dug. They worship the people who abuse them, and validate the prejudice of the unwashed masses. Karl Rove must be ever more disgusted by the people who honor him, than the Liberal's he fights. He just considers us naive about the true nature of the world. There are people who rule, and those that get crushed in his world -- and we just whine about it as if the world could be any different. You can't explain faith in other humans to these damaged people.
Everything that Saddam was accused of, was done by the Bush administration to Iraq. Cluster bombs, depleted uranium, and White Phosphorous are truly vile weapons. Failed Prison guards trained at the school of the Americas, who then send back videos of their exploits. Cronies stealing funds earmarked for Iraqis to rebuild so that they can't compete with the incompetent and expensive consultants -- echoing the "Oil for Food" scandal that really benefitted BushCo US corporations.
They rationalize what they do, by creating a WORSE straw man in the left.
They don't justify the lousy US healthcare system -- they point out that other nations aren't so good. Why learn from something in France that works good, when you can point out something in France that is bad?
The whole mindset of Conservatives is flawed. And their notion -- kept to themselves and never publicly spoken, is that voting and ruling should be for an elite few -- those who think right and are worthy. Usually the person who makes the most money, is just that sort of person. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy that we Liberals don't really understand. YES, perhaps everyone should not vote -- the people who ACTUALLY think everyone should not vote.
Conservatives are the failed Americans they hate. But they cannot look inward, and pursue with dogged tenacity the evil in the world without being able to understand their own reflections in the shadows.
"Now, I’ll give Loder the fact that the government, right now, wouldn’t do a very
good job of this. Right now it is being run by a group who thinks regulations are
bad as a founding principal. But, in the long run would you give the power to
corporations which are driven by profits or those who rule with the consent of
the governed? I choose the latter."
It's the reality that Americans know exists, but STILL prefer to pretend that we live in a democracy because our political talking heads say so. We do not live in a democracy and never have. We live in a capitalist society where all decisions, including life and death and healthcare, are all controlled by the almighty $$$. Everything Americans do is for the almighty $$$. Everything our political leaders do (Dems and ReThugs) is done for the almighty $$. This democracy tale is what is wrong in America. It is the main cause of all that is failing. Either US citizens don't get this, or refuse to admit it. Just because you get to vote every few years for a cherry picked candidate, over another cherry picked candidate, does not make democracy. Healthcare in EVERY nation is controlled by the almighty dollar. It's just that in the US, you have an insurance industry involvement that sucks your dollars, instead of a government sucking your dollars and claiming it's "free".....What is it about Americans that makes them think that they are all entitled to everything? Ask someone in Africa, or Iraq, or any other nation we've impoverished how they like their universal healthcare.
NChomsky @ 136:
I agree with most of this but if what you're saying is that there is no solution than I have do disagree. Yes the dollar controls a lot but we do live in a country where vote do count for something. Maybe not enough, but something. If they didn't why would any of us be here trying to make points in a public exchange of ideas. If enough people are convinced of something that is truth they will act to achieve that truth. Or maybe I'm just optimistic. But I woin't stop trying.
asdf @ 105:
DAR
Yes it is. It is complete junk. Do some research. These scientists have an excellent roast of it: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled/
Here is a little background on the creators of "Swindled."
***
"Distortions are hardly surprising. This programme was not a scientific documentary in any normal sense: it was a piece of political polemic.
The writer and presenter of the programme was Martin Durkin who is closely affiliated with the Revolutionary Communist Party which has a strong ideological opposition to environmental science. In 1997 Channel Four was forced to issue its first ever broadcast apology over extreme editing distortions in a similar series knocking environmentalism. It is a great shame that Carl Wunsch and the other legitimate scientists in the programme did not do a quick web search on Durkin before agreeing to contribute
There was only one scientific advisor on the programme, Martin Livermore, whose sole scientific qualification is that he is the Director of a web-based think tank, The Scientific Alliance. The Alliance was set up by in 2001 by Robert Durward, the fiercely anti-green director of the British Aggregates Association, and Foresight Communications, a Westminster public relations and lobbying company, to "counter scare-mongering by the so-called green lobby". The Scientific Alliance has no affiliation with any recognised scientific body but, like most of the contributors to the programme, it does have very strong links with the US public relations and lobbying organisations that have been so effective in setting the Bush agenda on climate change.
Many of the people who appeared on the programme were captioned to institutions and universities that they left years ago in order to pursue their political campaigning work: Fred Singer, Patrick Michaels, Philip Stott and Tim Ball are among them. Richard Lindzen is a practising scientist, but a highly politicised and criticised one. All of them have close associations with the Washington public relations and lobby groups that front for the fossil fuel companies and the libertarian right (whose ideology is often strangely indistinguishable from the Revolutionary Communists. Strange things happen at the political extremes).
Is it any surprise then, that these "scientists" were so persuasive. Most of the people on the programme are professional communicators who are more familiar with the chat show than the lab. Of course they give good interviews - it is what they do for a living.
And let us not forget that they are effective because they have a very willing audience. We would all like to believe them. Wouldn't it be wonderful to believe that the science is unsettled, that all that carbon dioxide that we are pumping into the atmosphere really has no effect, and that we do not have to worry about the future."
***
Now, back to the topic.
D.
NChomsky @ 132:
Dude.
This "supreme individual" stuff, really sounds like a script for "Extreme Cave Man." Long ago, people left the trees and hunter/gatherer existence and started farming. Perhaps to produce Mead (high-protein beer). From that point on, to this -- people don't exist in a vacuum.
If you want to go be an Island to yourself, go hang out with Ted Nugent for a while, and learn how to bow hunt. Then buy some 100 acres in Mexico -- because it will take that much land to support your Uber-man stomach, and you don't have to deal with Winter.
Or you can just live in Mexico -- they have none of the Human destroying social supports.
The GOVERNMENT THAT CAN DO NO RIGHT you speak of, is government that has most often, compromised by Corporatists. You know, when we let the Republicans get in office -- or the Libertarians which are a smokescreen to accomplish the same ends.
Libertarianism is a theoretical notion that is best left for comic books.
Try looking at Iraq, and realize that all the privatization and corporate "freedom" you speak of is what led to anarchy there.
what is mtv?
135 GeorgeD Says
Ad hominem is one of the most overused terms from rhetoric. This is known as attacking the messenger, primarily the messenger motive or characterer to detract from the issue.
Insults and name calling aren't considered ad hominems. However, they're acceptable for blogs, the conservatives do far worse calling for executions and murders, laughing about someone with Parkinsons, saying widows enjoy being without their husbands, mothers without their children.
The problem is this particular individual, and even his cable station, don't have the wherewithal to review our medical system, all they can do is say whether they "like" Michael Moore or not.
GeorgeD @ 137:
There is a solution, but it will never come to pass. This issue will be glossed over and some other hot topic will replace it on all the corporate media. I'd like to share what a Canadian relative says about his healthcare. He says, Canadians bitch and moan about their system "just as much" as Americans do. Their government pays the same lip service, and their healthcare workers do the same "the sky is falling and our system is broken" line of crap too, so as to get MORE taxpayer dollars. And it works. It doesn't improve healthcare. There are still bizarre waiting times, hard to get surgeries, and frustrations. And hey, once every election cycle their leaders and media pound the same crap 24/7 as well. "Time to fix healthcare, reinvest in our health future, blah, blah, blah..." Follow the money. Healthcare is profitable for someone, whether you have a universal system, or an insurance system. We have all been programmed to think that once so-and-so is elected, all will be grand, and the good times will roll. It's wrong. Big business and the rich run this world and always will.
Too much of our healthcare money is tied up into non-healthcare issues. Hospitals are bloated with administrators; they and the AMA hire lobbyists and PR firms that cost money. They invest in Wall Street and pass the their losses to their patients, the uninsured raise costs to the insured. The insured get denied life and limb saving procedures by bean counters who don't know medicine. The insured can't afford their copays and deductibles. Often they can't afford what their company offers for insurance in the first place, because of depressed wages.
The real money is in research not patient care. Meanwhile who's helping the patients are nurses who are stretched too thin, and residents who often work as many as 18 hours, possibly more, and are so sleeped deprived when they have to make life and death decisions.
GeorgeD @ 134:
>> Hey, I felt the same way at first. Let me just point out that, we've been pissed on for 6 years, and this is therapy. We've been told we were "extreme" wrong and tin-foil-hat-theorists. Marginalized -- like thinking that torture was wrong was a quaint notion. Everybody here could spend about two hours, explaining in detail in rational terms point for point why Michael Moore is correct (on balance) and why Loder is a Tool.
We are done with the tea and crumpets and quiet conversation. I think most of us here are just waiting for a NeoCon to start something with us so we can finish it -- but I can't speak for everyone.
If you have been aware of what is wrong in the country -- and haven't been driven crazy by it. You are a better man than I. But to me -- anyone who has been around the past 6 years and isn't angry, has been sleep walking. Welcome to the angry and awake people on the internet. Glad you can join us. Sorry if that sounds a bit shrill, but I've tried for 4 years to have rational conversations with NeoCons. So using a club when we could use a tweezer is Par for the Course.
>> I'll argue it. Health Care does not have unlimited demand. People do not jump off of buildings to break a leg so that they can go into intensive care and have a titanium rod stuck in their leg. For the most part, if you educate people and give them opportunity, most everyone is productive and driven to have pride in accomplishment and doing things worth doing -- it is the nature of MOST people.
The bleak world view of the Conservative, is that people left to their own devices, are going to steal from each other. That without a Daddy state with a stick, every island descends into "Lord of the Flies."
The founding fathers left a little provision for the Daddy state -- but they pushed for citizen militias instead of standing armies. They most envisioned a world where people were good because we enabled them to be good. It is the fundamental driving concept of the Constitution.
What all the theoretical arguments obscure is that we have socialized medicine already -- we just don't benefit from it. Of every $2 that goes into the Health Care system, $1 goes to health insurance. Of the $1 that goes to actual health, $.43 goes to overhead -- those two people for every doctor required to procure money from health insurance. Of that $2 -- $1.12 was paid by Medicare. Emergency rooms are cash cows for Hospitals, and they treat a lot of uninsured people on the government dime. If those "derelicts" as the right calls them, were insured, they'd cost the taxpayer a lot less.
Anyway, the HMO system we have now is a money stealing scam masquerading as a solution. Single Payer is a good start to solving this problem. My dad told me he remembers when he first got health insurance, many decades ago. It used to be a $1 to see the Doctor. After Health Insurance got involved, it was $10 to see the Doctor -- but the Insurers paid $9 as long as you kept your policy going. You can't NOT have Health Insurance, because the "free market" would charge you full price.
Do you get the scam yet?
Ok, I get the therapy argument. Makes sense. We have been screwed with for a long time now and I too am angry. I guess I just tend to be more angry that we have't been able to change things enough yet. I can't fault the snake for being a snake, but I can try to trap it or discourage it.
The unlimited demand vs. limited supply just refers to the fact that there will always be sick or injured people. no, people do not jump off of buildings to break a leg intentionally but they fall off accidentally all the time. People will never stop getting sick. I guess a better way to say it might be that the demand for healthcare will never go away.
And you're right on with the insurance scam.
Here's one of the problems:
Our government, at this point, would not do a very good job with universal health care. Because, as Moore pointed out, but didn't belabor, our government is completely and utterly corrupt at this point. Before there can be health care reform, we need election reform. Our government is bought and paid for by lobbyists.
We're totally screwed. We went down the rabbit hole with Nixon and landed in Wonderland with Reagan. No matter how much we scream and yell, our government won't do anything about it.
I saw the film and it's Moore's best, imo. I don't think they can attack him with any validity here, but they will try. But I'm afraid he's fighting a system that won't change.
My favorite bit in the film, by the way, was when he was talking to the "conservative" in Canada and the man supported the idea of helping others. I'm so sad that the "conservatives" in this country have no such heart.
i never trusted that guy to begin with.
Comments are closed on this entry