Libby Apologists Go After Clinton For Rich Pardon
By Logan Murphy Thursday Jul 05, 2007 1:16pm
On Thursday's "Countdown" Keith Olbermann talked with the Washington Post's Dana Milbank about President Bush's "Wizard of Oz-like-winged monkeys" who are out in force clamoring over President Clinton's pardon of Mark Rich. They probably should have done a little more homework and as Keith puts it, for the Bush Administration to throw the Rich pardon out there is "almost too funny for words."
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FRIIIIIIIST.
And release the flying monkeys!!
You know who's not president anymore? Bill Clinton.
Rusty Shackleford @ 2:
For the last 7 years.
And I'm not even sure what the monkey's argument is supposed to be. It was wrong when Clinton did it, so it's right now? Or it was right when Clinton did it? In which case, why have they been screeching about the Rich pardon for the last seven years?
Even arguing that "Clinton did it" -- is a child's argument ...
and for the Republicons to argue that way takes them off the "tough love" message of parenting they give out.
And I thought they said that when Bush entered the white house the adults had arrived and the kids had left.
Wow. Clinton got slammed for getting a BJ
WE NEED TO PROSECUTE ANYONE WHO HAS GOTTEN A BJ!
miss kitty
let's committ a FELONY!!
LOL!
Sorry...couldn't resist!
Just remember-it's no biggie to give one-just to receive one!
:lol:
There's a HUGE difference between these 2 pardons/commuting.
Scooter was Bush's advisor, whereas Rich was NOT in any of
Clinton's cabinets. It basically boils down to ethics and morals.
BOTH of which Bush knows nothing about. Let's see how far
any useless eater citizen can get with Bush's argument.
I've been enjoying watching this talking point play out on drudge reTort for a few days now. People shut up when you tell them marc richs lawyer was scooter libby.
Pardons is a constitutional power of the president.
Commutations aren't.
miss_kitty @ 6:
Even Mrs. Hunnicut?
Good thing it tweren't Hunnipot.
i am afraid for mr olbermann's safety...i mean it. he is getting too good. colbert/olbermann 2008
Liberal AND Proud @ 1:
Why is this giving me flashbacks of Mel Brooks version of the The Birds in High Anxiety?
ysbaddaden @ 11:
Yeah, all you hear on the MSM tv is how Bush's 'philosophy' is justification
for by-passing any law.
ysbaddaden @ 11:
Carter commuted Patty Hearst's sentence, so precedence has been set-Bill Clinton chalked her pardon up as yet another example of handing his out pardons :roll: willy-nilly :roll:
I don't want ANYONE to think my last crack is serious.
miss_kitty @ 16:
I wish just one reporter would go to the obvious follow-up question when hit with this talking point:
"So, are you saying that Clinton was as justified in pardoning Marc Rich as Bush was with Scooter Libby? Or are you saying that Clinton abused his power and that it's only fair that Bush get to as well?"
miss_kitty @ 16:
Ok. I'm lettin THAT remark pass. LOL! ;)
Gawwd...it MUST be Friday.
The big difference I see is that even those who in general supported Clinton did not support the Rich pardon. The supporters of Bush would still back him even if he suspended habeas corpus, put people in jail indefinitely without charges and tortured them, some to death. Oh wait, he's already done all of that and more. IOKIYAR is their partisan mantra.
One other thing. Damn Clinton to hell for having handed this argument, however hollow it may be, to Bu$hCo supporters on a silver platter.
SadButTrue @ 20:
The Pretzelnit could samurai sword Barney to death on the White House Lawn on a Sunday afternoon, and his base would justify it.
the underlying point and the bottom line is they don't have to be factually or morally right, they only have to appear and sound right and one-toothed wonder middle america buys it. they always have, they always will. i heard on the radio this morning that bush, that stalwart yale back east graduate was actually transplanted to texas and supposedly taught to drawl and given leased or rented cattle for his crawford ranch, all this so he could appear to be one of the people. they bought that, why not buy all the rest of the bs they're selling. wake up sod busters, he not only does not like black people, he doesn't like poor common folk either. ask his mother, queen barbara.
Clinton did not pardon Web Hubbel.
Hubbel admitted his guilt and received no pardon, while Libby never admitted guilt and received "commutation" of sentence.
Let that be a lesson to all Repugs, never admit guilt and you will receive your pardon.
Or die like Ken Lay did before sentencing and have your charges dropped.
Dang, I sound more and more cynical every day......and for good reason!
if bush pardoned charles manson the idiot wing nuts would support that to because manson killed hollywood liberal types.
I am not sure Clinton has ANYTHING to apologize over for the Rich pardon. I am not a lawyer, but my lay understanding is that for the Clinton pardon of Rich to be effective, he had to return to this country and make himself and his assets subject to civil suits by the people he allegedly defrauded. Has anyone ever established that he has done that, or if in fact Rich is actually legally pardoned?
Radically Moderate @ 24:
Ken Lay is not dead. But that is a discussion for another day.
Here we go again . . . For years bitching how Clinton did this Clint did that. Clinton was the worst, he was bad, he did despicable things.
Then they get caught doing worse things and the quote goes "well, Clinton did it too!!
Hypocritical, want it both ways BASTARDS!
WE NEED TO PROSECUTE ANYONE WHO HAS GOTTEN A BJ!
Does this mean we need to prosecute "The Bear?"
So, they are pissed at Mr. Clinton for his pardon, yet they have no problem with her dubyah's commutation.....priceless.
They're just jealous. Bill got blown, and they can't. And they're all rich nerds and STILL can't get blown.
C'mon, I mean REALLY...do you think that Karl Rove's wife is actually blowing him?!?
Liberal AND Proud @ 27:
He was flashfried, salted, and put in bags in your local vending machines.
I'd like to see someone compile a list of the times that Republicans have deflected criticism away from themselves by bring up Bill Clinton.
I think it's really funny how whenever someone criticizes the Bushies for something there's a landslide of apologists yelling "Clinton did it too!" As if whatever Clinton did is OK by them . . . only they hate Clinton. They hate him, but if he did it, then Bush can do it, too. In fact, Bush can do it better!
Singing: Anything Clinton did, I can do better! I can do anything better than him!
Liberal AND Proud @ 31:
She's still trying to buy the nitroglycerin.
Liberal AND Proud @ 31:
You mean Rove actually has a wife???? I thought there was just a cloning chamber some where for his evil little self
Everytime Bill Clinton's name comes up the left should be screaming DIVERSION, DIVERSION, DIVERSION.
Guess who's making the Clinton argument? The Libby supporters. Guess why? Diversion.
They're not arguing the prosecution was unfair, sentence was excessive, or Libby never lied for a reason - the focus would be on Bush's reasoning for Libby's quasi pardon and if and why Libby lied to begin with.
The Clinton discussion further removes the entire debate away from the Niger Forgery, the CIA Leak, the obstructed investigation, and the parties Libby protected by lying as well as the slam dunk case made by Fitz to prosecute him.
My suggestion is stop defending Clinton and stop looking up Bush I's pardons to do it. That only helps further remove the entire debate away from the entire Niger/CIA Leak/Libby perjury Trial by injecting more facts than necessary to have a discussion about whether this President abused his pardon power.
I wish guest would simply state if past presidents abused their pardon power it's wrong. If this President abused his pardon power it's wrong. Let's talk about what just happened before we jump back in time to justify it or excuse it. There are differences between what Clinton did and what Bush did, but it's totally a diversion to have that discussion before we take a closer look at what this President just did and why. Libby supporters want to excuse Bush by spreading the blame around and letting them do it without first examing what just happened is wrong.
Umm. There is a connection with Rich and Libby.
Libby was Rich's attorney for about 15 years, right up until the time Rich was pardoned.
A Clinton pardons Rich, and a Bush pardons Libby.
They all run in the same circles, folks. The mob.
Clytemnestra @ 36:
Yes. That swarmy low life is actually married.
Why aren't Hillary's people reminding the country that bush 41 pardoned Caspar Weinberger? Another case of a government official walking off scot-free, while the rest of us yokels pay our debts to society.
Diogenes @ 40:
You better damn well pay them. There's no bankruptcy protection for you!
Hey, maybe you're best friend's boss will become President and you'll get a commuted sentence.
Almost too funny for words except for the fact that the Backwash 26% don't care a thing about the truth.
They don't care that Rich was the willing accomplice of the Bush I / Reagan administration in the Republican scandal Iran/Contra affair.
Hell, they don't care that Ollie North was helping to smuggle cocaine into the US under the same scam. They don't care that he was committing felonies nor do they care that he was a drug runner.
They don't care that Rich was the client of Scooter Libby either.
They don't care that Rich was for all intents and purposes a GOP bag man, all they care about is their hollow "gotcha" moment.
It doesn't matter to them that there is no substance there, it doesn't matter that the Rich affair makes them stink as much of shit as the Libby affair does.
They don't even care that most progressives / liberals don't really admire Clinton - we just all recognize that he is ten times the president (even with all his myriad faults and pandering to the corporate elites) than the false idle idol Bush that they all worship.
All they care about is their stupid little party over country, like the good GOP Stalinists that they are.
What's really funny is that Marc Rich's lawyer at the time of his pardon was none other than, Scooter Libby.
TB @ 43:
No. What's really funny is Cheney shot a guy in the face, and the shot guy apologized for getting old Dead Eye UPSET!! LOLOLOL!
When I hear her name why do I think of Hillory the Pillory?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv3RWqFlvJs&mode=related&search=
It woulda made a better choice for campaign song than the dreck she chose.
Would Jesue have commuted Libby's sentence?
BillD @ 46:
Would Jesus have thrown out the sub-prime lenders?
"Good night and good luck"
So, once again, true to form, when they get into real trouble, they drag out Clinton to cover their lame asses.
OK, then why don't they compare to, say, Bush #1 or Ronnie? Or Eisenhower?
Because that would make Bush look even stupider and more lawless than he is now.
TB @ 43:
All that tells us is that Scooter Libby would probably have been in favor of a pardon for himself instead of a commutation of his sentence. In fact, he's probably preparing his case on that right now.
Why didn't Clinton have a more articulate response?
miss_kitty @ 6:
Well, looks like I'm in the clear. =\
"..no bankruptcy protection for you!"
sounds like the "soup Nazi".
The bottom line is that, as bad as what Clinton did was (and Democrates shouldn't be trying to defend it), he didn't pardon people specifically to chop the legs out from under criminal investigations into his own administration. What Bush is doing is using presidential pardons to OBSTRUCT JUSTICE.
I guess if Olbermann can masquerade as a news report, [deleted--don't insult the site on its own bandwidth. Did no one teach you manners?]. It nice to Olby has become a full fledged Clinton sycophant and water carrier.
Resign sir.
P.S. Slick Willie did 144 on the last day before the door hit him in the ass on the way out.
http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/clintonpardon_grants.htm
Site Monitor: EXCELLENT job of obsfuscating the issue. Obviously, your parents were remiss in teaching you several things. Manners, obviously. But even more sadly, that two wrongs don't make a right. How about next time, you try to stick to the point instead of lame grade school defenses that didn't work then.
According to Milbank, the power to pardon or commute is always legal and unassailable. However, if the pardon or commutation is a quid pro quo and futher actions in the obstruction of justice, I think a wise legal mind might find a way to show that is in fact illegal. The charges against Bush and Cheney could include subornation of perjury, obstruction of justice and being total f-sticks.
"The bottom line is that, as bad as what Clinton did was (and Democrates shouldn’t be trying to defend it)"
I think more to the point Dems shouldn't be constantly HAVING to defend it every time another Republican sticks his foot in it.
Fish sticks?
huyh....? @ 56:
EconAtheist @ 53:
You always was a cunning linguist.
Fishsticks--what a great insult--I love it!
Republiscum senators who voted Clinton guilty TWICE:
http://bobgeiger.blogspot.com/2007/07/25-gop-senators-who-voted-guilty-t...
ysbaddaden @ 11
Well, that's not true.
Article II, Section 2
Come on, guys, let's at least maintain our own understanding of the Constitution.
Clinton did it!!!!
Yeah, so Clinton pardoned people he shouldn't have pardoned.
By that argument, if W were to lose it and kill Laura and his kids, what would be the rationale?
Benoit did it!!! Or maybe, OJ killed his wife, so why can't the president?
Just because one person does something means you should too.
Implicit in all of this "it's o.k. because the other side did it" argument is the b.s. Democrat vs. Republican/Coke vs. Pepsi dichotomy. There are more than two sides, and just because one side did something does not absolve the other.
The Libby pardon is, however, quite comparable to the Rich pardon - especially in the similarity of the players and the interests involved. Not only was Libby Rich's lawyer, but heavy pressure from Neocon/Likud circles was behind both pardons. When confronted on the Rich Pardon, Clinton repeatedly pointed to Israeli pressure, in particular from P.M. Ehud Barak, as a justification. Libby's defense fund donors (and White House defenders) involve nearly identical Neocon/Likud players. (Yes, I know Barak was Labor, but Israeli politics often morph as they travel across oceans to the U.S.)
A big difference is that the recipients of Clinton's pardons were all applied for and went through all the proper channels and such. No one made a formal application of pardon or clemency on behalf of Scooter. It's all back room deals and I do hope some smart attorney figures out a way to prosecute for obstruction of justice. Bastards deserve jail time.
From James Madison's notes on the Constitutional Convention comes this gem:
George Mason was wary of the pardon power, explaining that the president could easily "pardon crimes which were advised by himself," or equally pernicious, could use the commutation power to "to stop inquiry and prevent detection."
James Madison responded,
Nifty, huh?
64 Karen
Reprieves is a temporary measure. Like delaying a scheduled execution, but not cancelling it outright.
Implicit in all of this “it’s o.k. because the other side did it” argument is the b.s. Democrat vs. Republican/Coke vs. Pepsi dichotomy. There are more than two sides, and just because one side did something does not absolve the other.
Fiver
I don't know that everyone is making that argument necessarily, that two wrongs make a right,or that it's ok because Clinton did it too. It's a question of who the howlers are now, and who the howlers were then. Neither side is being entirely consistent.
In the end, it's still the President's decision. Clinton exercised his right to pardon and gave his own justifications. He also recently exercised his right of free speech to shamelessly criticize Bush for the Libby commutation.
No doubt George W. Bush will someday criticize whatever assuredly controversial pardons Bill Clinton's wife decides to issue.
Amy @ 67:
I believe Judge Walton is investigating the legality of probation without serving jail time in respect to Bush's commutation.
Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has been called upon to investigate by Judge Walton the matter and we'll hear a bit more about what direction this all will be heading on Monday.
So folks, hang onto your hats, this matter has not been settled by any way, shape, or form..
Go Fitz!!!!!
Just to emphasis this point. You know who's not President right now? Bill Clinton. And he hasn't been President for the last SEVEN years.
Bringin up Bill Clinton is just the NeoCons COWARDLY way of trying to change the subject (so that people take up arguing over/defending/explaining the very "obvious to a two year old with basic common sense" differences between what Clinton did vs. what Bush has done) and divert attention from the fact that what BUSHCHO that's BUSH-CO (since, again, Clinton is NOT the President now) did was ABSOLUTLEY WRONG and basically a coverup/lovefest/thumbs up for treasonous activities (i.e. outing a covert CIA agent) among higher government officials.
One BIG difference between Clinton's pardons and the presNOT's commutation of Scooterpie's prison sentence is that Clinton DIDN'T PARDON ANYONE IN HIS OWN ADMINISTRATION.
Nor did he bypass the DOJ or the sentencing judge(s).
ticktock @ 71,
Unfortunately, the likely result is either an elimination of the probation or a slight modification of the commutation.
ysbaddaden @ 69
That's one definition. Would that it were the only one attributed to the word in the Constitution.
From Answers.com
re·prieve (rĭ-prēv') pronunciation
tr.v., -prieved, -priev·ing, -prieves.
1. To postpone or cancel the punishment of.
2. To bring relief to.
n.
1....
1. Postponement or cancellation of a punishment.
2. A warrant for such an action.
2. Temporary relief, as from danger or pain.
From the same web page, citing Legal Encyclopedia:
There would, of course, be an argument that Bush was not acting within his reprieve power because Libby had not served any time at all, and that a reprieve required that he at least serve some of his time. The maladministration would simply retort that he's serving some of his sentence by being on probation and paying his fine.
But whatever. This administration does whatever it wants anyway, and not enough people in the government that are supposed to counter them seem to care enough to do anything about it.
Clinton did horribly abuse the office with his lasts days pardons - further harming what dignity and integrity he had remaining after the Lewinsky fiasco. Clinton, in the end, was only guilty of extremely shabby judgment.But, the Libby apologists are comparing apples and oranges. None of Clinton's pardons were designed to obstruct justice, nor were they intended to protect him from possible future impeachment or criminal prosecution, nor were they intended to buy silence. Bush's commutation is nothing but a bald attempt to provide he and the Dark Lord a means of escaping justice.
dennis @ 70:
Unless she has to pardon HIM! LOL!
[...] Clark Link to Article george w bush Libby Apologists Go After Clinton For Rich Pardon » Posted at [...]
What's with all the LOL's today.
Makes me feel like Big Daddy's back.
The moral relativism of the right wing is a wonder to behold.
75 Karen
I got my definition from Black's Legal Dictionary, probably the most authoritative albeit still tertiary source.
However, even in reading it, I wondered what the world might've meant back in the 18th century. Hermeneutics are funny that way.
Ha ha.
fiver @ 74:
That is definitely a possibility but what I am concerned about is what kind of strategy Fitzgerald will proceed to clear that "cloud over the vice president" after this clarification of legality regarding Bush's commutation on Monday...
I believe the Wilson's have placed their trust in Fitzgerald so let's see what happens....
Liberal AND Proud @ 77:
Good point, L&P. You've been on fire today. Somehow that strikes me as a very real possiblility in this bizzarro world of politics we live in today.
ticktock @ 82:
I'm wishful, but not very hopeful. "Clearing the cloud" now appears to be in the hands of the Wilson's private attorneys or a congressional grant of immunity.
ysbaddaden @ 80
:) Certainly not a bad source. And you know, I'd have no problem arguing in court that the proper meaning of the word "reprieve" in the Constitution puts commutations off limits. I'll admit, the more I think about it, there's a decent argument to be made. Though, in every Constitutional Law class I've ever been in, commutations were always considered within the reprieve power. And that was before this maladministration had shown the full force of its evil.
But hell, I was always one to argue with my Constitutional Law professors anyway. Sometimes even argued them into corners. Perhaps the most fun I ever had doing that was when I backed John Yoo into admitting his understanding of Marbury v. Madison was incomplete. The class loved me for that one. ;)
Liberal AND Proud @ 3:
Well, don't I feel silly.
Blah blah blah.. Marc Rich...blah blah blah Clinton did it too, blah blah blah whitewater, Monicagate, who killed Vince Foster blah blah blah...ad nuseum.... HEY!!! I DON"T FUCKING CARE!!!!
What ever the hell Clinton did or didn't do, he sure as hell didn't set the planet on fire! He sure as hell didn't generate this kind of hate and discontent directed at this nation we see today!!! He sure as fuck didn't openly piss on the constitution and pervert the supreme court for the next 40 fucking years...
Yea he helped propel NAFTA forward and I ain't forgiving him for that piece of shit agreement. But he don't hold a candle to these cocksuckers we're saddled with these days...
Clinton has been out of power now what now, six? seven plus fucking years? shut the fuck up about Clinton.. This current trainwreck only has only one conductor and one engineer with plenty of lapdog assistants and neither one of them are named Clinton... Get it??? Jesus, I'm sick of hearing this SHIT!!!! Clinton?... Fuck you Dick Cheney and George Bush!!!, Clinton this motherfuckers!!! Jesus, I don't even know who I'm bitching at... I'd take my rant to the rightwing blogosphere but I doubt I'd even get accepted for a login. P. S. Hillary ain't going to become president either so all you freepers can stop wetting your panties over that one........... Chee-rist, will someone please tell me when the nightmare is over??? JD
Karen @ 85:
I knew Yoo was an overrated twit, in addition to being a fascist prick.
Karen @ 85:
Karen, you're my hero.
But how did Boalt Hall end up with Yoo as a law professor? I've read his torture memo, and it probably wouldn't pass any legal research and writing course north of Liberty and Regent.
.
LOL
Republicans need a common enemy.
~ Dana Milbank
We need a common enemy to unite us.
~ Condoleezza Rice
Mission Accomplished.
~ George W. Bush
We have meet that enemy, and it is us.
~ Pogo
.
I happen to think that John Yoo's testicles should be crushed. If I were president, I'd order that, and what would John have to complain about?
Cantor de Mambo @ 91:
Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.
i am afraid for mr olbermann’s safety…i mean it. he is getting too good. colbert/olbermann 2008
Mike, I agree. He should never fly (Democrate seem to fall out of the sky) or go huntin with Cheney.
On a Wash DC radio program the morning after the commutation, a couple of University of (can't remember) law professors said that with the commutation, irving liebowitz may still please the 5th Amendment if this issue goes further or anything similar, and that if it had been a full pardon, if this or a similarly-related issue came to bear, he'd not be able to keep silent and please the 5th, but would have to either tell the truth, or lie to clear those around and above him.
I've not heard that anywhere else, but only the stone-throwing that's gone on for a few days.
Has anyone heard of this as well?
Karen?
Gotta say I like you better already and I was pretty partial to you to begin with... Anyone who punks out John Yoo in a standup fight is OK in my book... And generally, I'm a little skeptical of lawyers these days...sorry...exception noted for you mam.................JD
Liberal AND Proud @ 31:
That thing has a wife?!!!
The big difference between Clinton's pardon of Rich and Bush's commutation (and eventual pardon) of Libby is that Bush himself is complicit in Libby's wrongdoing. Libby was a foot soldier to protect the President's big lie, the lie that Iraq was a national security threat that needlessly got 3500 troops killed so far.
I knew they were promoting Hillary for the reason they believe they can win with her on the ticket.
Each time the negatives about the Bush administration comes up, they will run the Clinton record and attempt to out shout the issues with it.
As much as they (media and republicans) hate her, to continue to making her the star of the democratic show, when they are well aware she is not, speaks completely of the games they are attempting to play with the 2008 election.
We have got to get some control of this media to get the true numbers on these people, because we are not getting them now and if they have their way, we never will.
Libby was convicted of obstructing Pat Fitzgerald's investigation of a non existent crime. Richard Armitage openly admits to committing the so-called "crime" and was not prosecuted because Fitzgerald knew it was not a crime. Marc Rich is the biggest tax cheat in US history. There is no moral equivalence in the two pardons. Rich is a criminal slimebag who contributed millions to the Clintons and bought his pardon.
The Clintons' will give fodder to conservatives forever, so get used to it. Fortunately for the conservatives, just about everything Bush has been accused of, Clinton did. Wait till they get to National Security and Clinton's involvement in the transfer of technology to China. No escape. Best to nominate someone who doesn't have the baggage.
Libby's commutation? Bush, who is not running, doesn't care. He thinks that history will vindicate his unpopular actions in Iraq.
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