Hardball: Watergate Redux
By Nicole Belle Thursday Jul 26, 2007 2:04pm
Download | play 
Download | play YouTube (thanks to Heather for the vids)
When you have Tony Snow spinning wild accusations against Democrats to distract from the news that Democratic members of the Senate Judiciary Committee has requested a Special Prosecutor to look into Alberto Gonzales's conflicting testimony before Congress, who else better to have on than a former Reagan official? After all, it's not like Saint Ronnie's man could be accused of a partisan witch hunt.
Chris Matthews talks to Stan Brand, former US House Counsel and Bruce Fein, formerly part of Reagan's DoJ. Not surprisingly, Fein sees parallels in what is happening with Watergate.
MATTHEWS: How can Tony Snow come on the show as the President's spokesman and deny seeing and hearing what we just heard and saw?
BRAND: Well, he's not a grand jury and he's not a prosecutor...
FEIN: He's Ron Ziegler during Watergate. And you remember all the equivocations that were made by Mr. Nixon that these are just concocted allegations and John Dean is lying. Well, John Dean wasn't lying. One of the ironies there about this attempt to split hairs right now is what it's a reminder of for Republicans: it's President Clinton with the meaning of the word "is" is, what's the meaning of the word "alone"? This is not games when you're under oath and testifying with regard to an oversight function of Congress.
MATTHEWS: Okay, let me ask you this, the toughest question in the world: so what? Can those guys on the Hill, Chuck Schumer, etc. and Patrick Leahy for judicial or political reasons, or Constitutional reasons, really bring the case to this White House and this Attorney General? Can they really put him in jail for lying?
FEIN: They cannot, because they cannot enforce the law and initiate a criminal prosecution. What they can do and what they would have to do is begin impeachment proceedings. The President has a duty to faithfully execute-not sabotage-the law...
Login or Register to post comments.
Republican Lions Acting Cowardly
Apparently most of the Republican presidential candidates are afraid of the citizen-driven format of the upcoming CNN/YouTube Debate that's now only six weeks away. I'd have guessed that Fred Thompson would be too damned afraid to let everyone see he...
It's not like Gonzales intentionally perjured himself. He has no memory!
I have no comment.
Except this one in which I say I do, aw hell I just wanted to be first.
Damn! missed anyway.
This wasn't quite as much fun as Obama's media director tearing Hilary's to shreds later on in that episode.
Wireless wire-tapping?
Where are the rest of the Republicans of good conscience, joining Mr. Fein in calling for impeachment?
Oh. Wait. Nevermind.
Impeach Dick-Head and the Monkey Man.
I thought this was one of the best segments I've seen on tv in some time. Finally, someone speaking on the subject without a political motive. I wasn't even sure that could happen anymore. Talk about a voice of reason.
Mathews is a shill. What MAnn Coulter was not available for an ANOTHER hour interview?
I heard snow this morning trying to say that gonzo did not lie, despite wht several million people heard him say on the tube the other day at his last hearing.
The White House, and toady snow are actually getting to a point equivalent to that of defining the meaning of the word "is" (to paraphrase one of the statements that so angered Bill Clinton's right wing enemies).
This could be fun, if enough of our Constitution remains to allow the traitors in the White House to get their just desserts.
This is a great segment. It is all right to the point and completely on target.
Precisely.
FEIN: They cannot, because they cannot enforce the law and initiate a criminal prosecution. What they can do and what they would have to do is begin impeachment proceedings. The President has a duty to faithfully execute-not sabotage-the law…
I'd be interested in Paul in LA's take on this. He seems to be the commenter most convinced that indictment, rather than impeachment, is the more viable strategy.
There's only two differences between the Nixon era and the Bush era:
1) Bush won't resign, like Nixon did.
2) The Democrats in Congress won't impeach, like the Democrats did back then.
Dick Cheney believes the only thing Dick Nixon did wrong was to resign, thereby expressing guilt.
Bush won't do that. Unless it's for *health* reasons.
Translation -
Here again is another weekly example of this country coming 1 step closer to an outright dictatorship, and other than a few people complaining about it online, absolutely nothing will be done.
I wonder what my number is gonna be when they start rounding up dissenters. Anyways, I'll see you guys soon, Halliburton has been building nice shiny new prisons in the upper Northwest, I'll catch you all at the upcoming meet'n'greet.
Consumer -
Will there be punch and pie?
I bet if they start impeachment proceedings against gonzo, a bunch of Republicans will join in. It's a good way to begin to separate themselves from the president and it's safer than going against him regarding the war. They can make that decision in Sept. about the war.
Impeach or treason trials all around.
The Dems need to move NOW or be accused along side the Reps.
And yet, our staunch 'representatives' Pelosi and Reid claim impeachment is "off the table," Conyers has Sheehan arrested for demanding he keep his promise to begin impeachment proceedings, and Webb votes with the republicans to give Bush a blank, no-timelines check. Something stinks to high heaven here, as if our 'representatives' don't give a rat's @ss about justice, law or the Constitution. Enablers are just as bad as criminals, that's why 'accessories' to a crime are held responsible.
Further, what they keep trying not to realize is that the only way for America to re-establish any credibility around the world would be to recognize Bush administration criminal behavior and punish it, so that the rest of the world understands that we don't tolerate it for any reason, even if the poor concern-troll Dems deem it "inconvenient."
I never seem to be able to post the first comment.
I'm always a day late, and a dollar short,
And my penis is shrivelling.
BUSH REGIME SUBPOENAS MICHAEL MOORE http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/2007/07/bushies_want_to_hear_from_mo...
pissed off patricia @ 17:
I'll bet if they start impeachment proceedings against Gonzo that the Congress' approval ratings will soar.
Then the media will have to ask the tough questiosn about the Pretzelnit, and the "I" ball will really start rolling. Once you impeach the AG...then the next question is the infamous..."what did the President know...and when did he know it".
Ruthless People @ 21:
They're like babies aren't they. The White House has been turned into a kindergarten.
Fein is obvious not a serious expert on this, and thus is prime for derision and mockery by the Washington media, lead by the exemplary Dean Broder and the wonderful Joke Line...I'm sorry, Joe Klein.
Liberal AND Proud @ 22:
Yup. and they would be tougher questions than Matthews', "Okay, let me ask you this, the toughest question in the world: so what?'...
Man, that guy is a COMPLETE Tool!
Fein has been really honest during the whole Dumbya Regime, the law and the nation before his party.
The Moore subpoena is really a desperate move, they're grasping for anything to change the subject.
martial law doc surface stateside
quote:
The media, print and broadcast (radio, television and the Internet), play a vital role in societies involved in a counterinsurgency. Members of the media have a significant influence and shaping impact on political direction, national security objectives, and policy and national will. The media is a factor in military operations. It is their right and obligation to report to their respective audiences on the use of military force. They demand logistic support and access to military operations while refusing to be controlled. Their desire for immediate footage and on-the-spot coverage of events, and the increasing contact with units and Soldiers (for example, with embedded reporters) require commanders and public affairs officers to provide guidance to leaders and Soldiers on media relations. However, military planners must provide and enforce ground rules to the media to ensure operations security. Public affairs offices plan for daily briefings and a special briefing after each significant event because the media affect and influence each potential target audience external and internal to the AO. Speaking with the media in a forward-deployed area is an opportunity to explain what our organizations and efforts have accomplished.
Continuous PSYOP are mounted to—
· Counter the effects of insurgent propaganda.
· Relate controls to the security and well-being of the population.
· Portray a favorable governmental image.
.Control measures must—
· Be authorized by national laws and regulations (counterparts should be trained not to improvise unauthorized measures).
· Be tailored to fit the situation (apply the minimum force required to achieve the de-sired result).
· Be supported by effective local intelligence.
· Be instituted in as wide an area as possible to prevent bypass or evasion.
· Be supported by good communications.
· Be enforceable.
· Be lifted as the need diminishes.
· Be compatible, where possible, with local customs and traditions.
· Establish and maintain credibility of local government.
A control program may be developed in five phases:
· Securing and defending the area internally and externally.
· Organizing for law enforcement.
· Executing cordon and search operations.
· Screening and documenting the population (performing a detailed census).
· Performing public administration, to include resource control.
Support to the judiciary may be limited to providing security to the existing courts or may lead to more comprehensive actions to build local, regional, and national courts and the required support apparatus. To avoid overcrowding in police jails, the courts must have an efficient and timely magistrate capability, ideally co-located with police stations and police jails, to review cases for trial.
to see link:
www.tbrnews.org
look left, see ‘archive’ click link
scroll down to July 16, then click link: ‘green zone follies’
I remember telling my "buddies" about 5 years ago, that America was becoming a fascist state (I used to live in one, I think I can recognize fascism...) --- They called me all kinds of names and insults. --- So now I say "America IS a fascist state - and you who insults me embraces this fascism"
Now "shove the god-damned flag up your fucking ass you god-damn sonofabitch!" (propagandhi)
Oh, Many European countries have been experiencing the lowest birthrates ever. They are dependent on immigration and in dire need of skilled workers.
Im researching my options, but I think it will be less than a year before I leave this Nazi state and start my new life in Europe or in South America. I will let you know how it goes and everyone is welcome to follow me to a new home.
Fuck this nationalistic shit. America does not reflect my values anymore. Fuck this place.
Hmmm, but here's the point failure:
George Bush is too stupid to know when the time would come to resign. Say what you want, but at least Nixon was a MAN about it.
Could ANYONE see George Bush giving the kind of going away speech that Nixon gave the day he left the White House...the one that he said.."and so...we leave".
Barbara would probably have to hold his hand while his Daddy made a statement. Laura would already be on her way to Texas to file for divorce, to get her share of his inheritance.
This Fein guy has been getting a lot of face time the past couple of weeks.
I know nothing about him, but I wonder if he was such a stickler for good conduct in government when he served in the Reagan DOJ. Was he around during the Iran-Contra scancal?
What about all the GOP appointees in the DOJ now? There must be hundreds of them. They can't all be kool-aid sucking ideologues. Why aren't we hearing about resignations? How could you be a lawyer, sworn to observe the law and the constitution, and keep working every day for these crooks?
StirFry @ 28:
Sabotage AND Subterfuge. A collective stratagem by the Bush administration to push forward policies that otherwise wouldn't be accepted if the truth and underlying purposes about the policies were revealed to the people. Policies designed to enrich the rich and isolate and marginalize the proletariat.
Annoyed Canuck @ 30:
The resignations in the intelligence community, the Justice Department, the EPA, the FCC, literally every branch of our government is well documented.
The real sad part is that most of these resignations were career employees. People like you and me, from both sides of the aisle, who took pride in being part of our government and serving the people.
The damage that has been done institutions is far greater than most people realize, and it will take years to fix...if it gets fixed at all.
Just one day after essentially accusing Gonzales of perjury before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Arlen Specter once again backed away from taking action against the Bush administration and instead criticized his Democratic colleagues for "playing politics."
For the details, see:
"Specter's Latest Hamlet Act."
Annoyed Canuck @ 30:
Fein was around for the Iran Contra years and has been critical of that scandal. You will find Fein to be very honest when answering any questions including those about his past.
go here to IMPEACH
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JE8cVV6NGxM
Annoyed Canuck @ 30:
Bruce Fein wrote the first article of impeachment against Pres. Clinton, he is an expert on Constitutional law, if one exists.
Angry One -- I prefer to call him Arlen "Spinchter".
They have to get some balls and impeach somebody. What is with the chicken shit Demos. If ever there was a time to impeach it is now. If the Repubs can impeach for lying about a blow job etc etc etc etc………
this is exactly the reason why the dems getting the minor majority they got doesn't mean jack shit.
worthless fucks like arlen spector spew bullshit and never back it up, then when it comes time to stand up for the country they slink away and the dems with no power sit there with their balls in their hand wondering who kicked them and how come they can't stop the guy.
we keep getting kicked in the nuts by this administration and no one bothers to put on a cup in the media.
I AM SO FREAKING OUTRAGED RIGHT NOW!!!!
OH AND BY THE WAY, EXXON WILL HAVE QUARTERLY PROFITS IN THE BILLIONS AGAIN
AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
MATTHEWS SHUT THE FUCK UP
LET YOUR GUESTS SPEAK
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU
S H U T U P
boosh II: Watergate Reflux.
I suggest everyone send a request to your congress-person to stay in session through August, I sent a pretty straight forward e-mail to my representative. you can just copy this if you like:
Please move for Congress to stay in session through the summer, we are in a major crisis in this country, we cannot trust our executive branch of government, we cannot trust our attorney general, we cannot trust our generals, we need you all to stay in session to prevent any funny business when you are gone, like a recess appointment for a new attorney general. Please stay and fight for the American people. we need your help!
Tony Snow's number one job is to make Bush look good, period. He's just a PR guy, nothing more. That means he'll spin, distort, lie, whatever it takes. He has NO credibility. That's why the WH press conferences are such a joke and total waste of time.
edgecity @ 36:
Bruce Fein wrote the first article of impeachment against Pres. Clinton, he is an expert on Constitutional law, if one exists.
Vic @ 34:
Fein was around for the Iran Contra years and has been critical of that scandal. You will find Fein to be very honest when answering any questions including those about his past.
Liberal AND Proud @ 32:
The resignations in the intelligence community, the Justice Department, the EPA, the FCC, literally every branch of our government is well documented.
The real sad part is that most of these resignations were career employees. People like you and me, from both sides of the aisle, who took pride in being part of our government and serving the people.
The damage that has been done institutions is far greater than most people realize, and it will take years to fix...if it gets fixed at all.
Thanks.
Angry One @ 33:
Yes, but one Leahy is worth a dozen Specters:
The White House has asserted blanket claims of executive privilege, despite testimony under oath and on the record that the President was not involved. The White House refuses to provide a factual basis for its blanket claims. The White House has instructed former White House officials not to testify about what they know and instructed Harriet Miers to refuse even to appear as required by a House Judiciary Committee subpoena.
Given the stonewalling by this White House, the American people are left to wonder: What is it that the White House is so desperate to hide?
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003790.php
Consumer @ 15:
Always wanted to live in the Pacific North West.
But look at it this way. This administration is so incompetent we can all do a Hogans Heroes.
I'm with JackNYC #39...Does Matthews ever pause for a goddamn microsecond to CONSIDER WHAT IS BEING SAID?!!! He reveals his ignorance in the fact that he has NO INTEREST IN THINKING. He acts like he's afraid they'll take his show away from him if he stops talking long enough for them turn off the camera. He really appears unhinged.
E in MD @ 46:
ITMFA
Who watches Matthews!? What a piece of work that guy is. He rolls over for Bush talking points everytime - He's as bad as the other dingbat Timmeh.
Fein been screaming this for a long time and even he ca'nt get any traction,
well at least they ca'nt use the partisan lie on him
Way back up thread, hanshiro spoke of what it would say to the world, if we collectively held our King Cowboy and Dead-eye-dickcheney up to the light of justice. These people have perpetrated a hoax and a crime of unprecedented proportion,against not only us average joes, but our constitution and way of life, and many of our allies. They've given purpose to our enemies. They're thieves. They have the blood of many on their hands. If you've done something terribly wrong to someone, and they, as human nature is want to do, seek retribution, what's the best way to diffuse their anger? Give them just that - redress - justice. Impeachment would be a start - a trip to the Hague would be a good finish. I wonder though - if we've not gone so far down the rabbit hole as to ever see the light of day - that 'light from above' cornball stuff from the America the Beautiful song. Unfortunately, as a friend's 7 yr. old sings the song - "with a light from a bulb" (Dick's energy task force?) maybe the only light we'll ever see shine on these guys.
Annoyed Canuck @ 45:
Vic @ 34:
Fein was around for the Iran Contra years and has been critical of that scandal. You will find Fein to be very honest when answering any questions including those about his past.
Liberal AND Proud @ 32:
The resignations in the intelligence community, the Justice Department, the EPA, the FCC, literally every branch of our government is well documented.
The real sad part is that most of these resignations were career employees. People like you and me, from both sides of the aisle, who took pride in being part of our government and serving the people.
The damage that has been done institutions is far greater than most people realize, and it will take years to fix...if it gets fixed at all.
Thanks.
Hopefully the damage done to these institutions by the cronies that replaced many qualified employees will be repaired sooner than later. What is critical now is making sure these loyal neocon appointees don't do much more damage before their dreadful rule is over. Nothing is shocking, so there will be revelations to come that will continue to make this country look like a two bit dictatorship.
what happened to shuster?
The substance of this discussion was very interesting but I am struck by two observations;
1. Matthews is an A-hole.
2. How can we allow this country to continue being run by a mob of Machiavellian criminals?
The time for impeachment is NOW!
IMPEACH NOW !!!
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear."
Cicero
Tweety, I think you need to go back to smelling Fred Thompson and challenging Hillary's machismo. This hardcore political stuff is just too overwhelming for you.
I think it is obvious by now that the corporate media cares more about their profits than their country, so I think we should just take Tony's word for it and buy our box of Tide. Move along. Nothing to see here folks...
I heard the testimony. All Gonzolez said was that he was with Ashcroft to discuss a program that the panel had never heard of before. The panel assumed the questioning was about the wiretapping program. How is that a lie? There are some secrets that should be kept secrets, donchathink? Gonzolez is leading the panel around in circles. Good for him! Name one liberal that's been affected by the wiretapping program. What's the beef? When Hillary gets elected she'll drop all these stupid terrorist id programs anyway!
BTW: Chris Mathews is all about Chris Mathews and no one else.
A brewing perfect storm??? Sounds like the real perfect storm is the fact that congress and this administration are headed for a real constitutional crisis/showdown... reluctantly it seems....whether either side wants to really, or not... What it will come down too, is the facts in evidence now and the continuing evidence we don't know about yet that will come to light, will weigh heavily in the public eye and congress will have an increasingly hard time dodging it..under a growing hailstorm of criticism by average people totally fed up. Those facts will enevitably lead to the conclusion that impeachment is the only way to address the scope and level of mendacity inherent in this administration.. Impeachment will suddenly be on the table...Perhaps as suddenly as overnight...
The fact that an alledgedly democratic controlled congress will balk at embracing this conclusion, as they have to date, that they must remove a sitting president, vice president and many other officials in the executive branch who happen to be of the opposing party will provide armchair chit-chat and serious socio-political analysis for decades to come.. And, is just one more by-product of this sick and twisted administration and its total failure to govern responsibly.. And equally telling, if this congress refuses to embrace this solution to our growing constitutional crisis and goes for the 'let em run out the clock because...yadda yadda, it's a better stratagy because our experts tell us blah blah blah'...will be regarded by history as bullshit, and a refusal to act in a responsible manner to a nation threatening crisis..
And if said stratagy is followed, at the end of it all.. history will merely record the legislative branch of this government behaved no more responsibly than the now crooked and perverted executive branch... Are you listening congress? You are in the process of pissing away your own legacy potential...Just like Chimpy has spent the last six years pissing away his own... And the nations..... You people up on that hill know what you need to do... The time for candy and soda's are past.. The time for peas and carrots are upon you... Deal with it, do your duty as discribed in the constitution...For the good of the nation....For the future of all of us..............JD
Well they have to keep the AG scam going until after the next election to ensure a Republican president to pardon them, or they are all gonna end up in jail....
Matthews is doing a good job on this one. If he was as diligent with every story as he has been with this one, he might actually have credibility.
One can dream, right?
scruzman @ 58:
Hey. You're stupid.
RagingGurrl@60
OK I'll play. Takes one to know one. Your move.
Anybodyelse@thissite:
Name one law-abiding citizen that has been targeted by the terrorist survelliance program and I'll leave.
People seems to have forgotten that under Labor LAW, this visit would constitute "harassment". This behavior is unacceptible at any circumstances. When Ashcroft was sent to the hospital much like the President when he undergove his colonoscopy treatment, there were already prearrangement as to who will take the lead in the absence of the ailing official (employee). In this case it was Comey and in the President's case it was the Vice President.
For Gonzales and Card to badger an ailing employee at the hospital...even worse, while the employee is not competent and not honoring Comey's wishes while he was at that time the "Acting on behalf of Ashcroft", without the consent of their superior (the President, which I highly doubt, the President or VP does not know what Gonzales has done) is clearly inappropriate, unacceptable and at lease a violation of one's right to privacy during time-off because of medical/physical condition.....in the case of Ashcroft, while heavily sedated after undergone surgery.
This is a classic misuse of authority on the part of those that made this action possible. It is a highly reflective of the Bush Administration. It NOT right anyway you look at it.
Just the mere fact that his whole intent to force and do public business on someone else's "private time" is a violation of protocol and professional conduct and mostly an infringement of someone's personal rights.
If this would have happen to someone else, they would be asking for a major lawsuit.
[...] Court Contact the Webmaster Link to Article white house Hardball: Watergate Redux » Posted at Crooks and Liars on Friday, July [...]
An excellent segment. I could not agree more with Fein on why impeachment is the only solution that can work in this environment.
Bruce has been really good on Randi Rhodes show too
Tony Snow does restore one's faith in 'god', since He has chosen to destroy the perfidious, mendacious Snow's colon and brain with cancer.
But the question is, why does He work so slowly? And so mysteriously, why didn't He start with the tongue?
Liberal AND Proud @ 30:
Sorry, L&P, but I'm going to have to disagree. There's nothing manly about resigning AFTER reaching a secret deal with your close personal friend to be pardoned for all crimes in exchange for said resignment.
In fact, not Imprisoning the Bitch Nixon, is perhaps the greatest reason why we find ourselves in the situation with Nixon's henchmen, Cheney and Rove, today.
hiding the crime behind 'national security' is a typical ploy.
scruzman @ 63:
I can name hundreds!
The Pentagons operation Talon had the Catholic pacifist organization "The Thomas Merton Center" of Pennsylvania and a Quaker organization in Florida, not only under observation, but labeled as "security threats."
This was divulged by an ACLU Freedom of Information act law suit in December of 2005. The Talon database is linked to all US surveillance operations (TIA).
The Catholic and Quaker organizations previously mentioned had committed no crime. The group in Florida had given out leaflets at a high school urging graduates not to enlist and the Merton center members had also leafleted.
We could go on to discuss the 11,000 admitted violations of National Security Letters by the FBI if you'd like.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/14/AR200512...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/16/AR200701...
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2005/12/pentagon_domestic_sp...
Chris Matthews is such a smuck. His parting comment on the White House being a safe place to work is unbelievably insulting to us all.
Oops... Typo
"We could go on to discuss the 11,000 admitted violations of National Security Letters by the FBI if you’d like."
Should read 1,100 not 11,000
Fein, who willingly participated in the persecution of President Clinton. says "it’s President Clinton with the meaning of the word “is” is".
How long do we have to endure lies like this? I was watching Clinton on TV when he made that statement. He was laughing when he said it, and it was totally clear that he meant it as a joke. It was not a serious remark. Yet, we allow this story to be repeated again and again.
Unfortunately, this is but one of endless examples of Republicans lying to glorify their people (Saint Reagan, for example) and demonize ours. An example being repeated currently is the notion that we were winning militarily in Vietnam before the cowardly and traitorous Democrats made us pull out. Those who know the truth (an this includes these Republican liars) are aware that, at the time of our withdrawal from Vietnam, 90 to 95 percent of the country was in the hands of our opponents, and we could not even safeguard our own embassy in the middle of Saigon. We had lost that war, as Bush has lost his war of aggression. It was the Republicans, not the Democrats, then as now, who cared nothing for the lives of the troops.
scruzman @ 63:
RagingGurrl@60
OK I’ll play. Takes one to know one. Your move.
Anybodyelse@thissite:
Name one law-abiding citizen that has been targeted by the terrorist survelliance program and I’ll leave.
Rasputin@69 sez:
I can name hundreds!
The Pentagons operation Talon had the Catholic pacifist organization “The Thomas Merton Center” of Pennsylvania and a Quaker organization in Florida, not only under observation, but labeled as “security threats.”
This was divulged by an ACLU Freedom of Information act law suit in December of 2005. The Talon database is linked to all US surveillance operations (TIA).
The Catholic and Quaker organizations previously mentioned had committed no crime. The group in Florida had given out leaflets at a high school urging graduates not to enlist and the Merton center members had also leafleted.
“It makes no sense that the FBI would be spying on peace activists handing out flyers,” said Jim Kleissler, Executive Director of the Thomas Merton Center for Peace & Justice. “Our members were simply offering leaflets to passersby, legally and peacefully, and now they’re being investigated by a counter–terrorism unit. Something is seriously wrong in how our government determines who and what constitutes terrorism when peace activists find themselves targeted.”
According to the documents released today, the FBI initiated a classified investigation into the activities of the Thomas Merton Center, noting in a November 2002 memo that the center “holds daily leaflet distribution activities in downtown Pittsburgh and is currently focused on its opposition to the potential war on Iraq.” The synopsis of the document is provided to “report results of investigation on Pittsburgh anti-war activities.” The FBI memo points out that the Merton Center “is a left-wing organization advocating, among many political causes, pacifism.”
We could go on to discuss the 11,000 admitted violations of National Security Letters by the FBI if you’d like.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....28_pf.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01731.html
http://blog.washingtonpost.com.....pying.html
Mr. Rasputin:
Thank you for your links, however we are talking about wiretapping, aren't we?
The activities of the Merton Center were investigated by the Joint Anti-Terrorism Task Force in Pittsburgh. It was visibily and demonstrably anti-war, bringing it to the attention of the authorities: Merton wasn't identified by the TSP: it was in the news.
Nice try. Your point is moot and I'm not leaving! Name one citizen affected by the TSP (wiretap) program that Gonzolez and Lee are sparing about.
But why "peace groups"? Simple. Declassified documents from the former Soviet Union proved what was always suspected about the 60's anti-war groups and their leaders: they were funded by the Soviets to turn popular opinion against the war. They did, therefore, the scrutiny.
Shouldn't some secrets remain secrets?
scruzman @ 75:
Care to back this claim up with sources? Or are you just pulling sh*t out of your ass?
The stupidest quote from the whole segment, after Tweety Bird shut down Fein's Watergate and John Dean comments, was "Let me ask you the toughest question in the world. 'So what?'"
That is the absolutely dumbest question on Earth! This is the type of question a stupid a$$ school yard bully challenges his smarter school mates with.
Me: The Earth is round.
Stupid A$$ Tweety Bird: So what?
Whoa!!! Stupid A$$ Tweety Bird just ask the "toughest question in the world!"
Tweety Bird, what a ph*cking useless moron!!
Mr. Scuzman:
"Mr. Rasputin:
Thank you for your links, however we are talking about wiretapping, aren't we?"
Well actually I was just taking you at your word:
They broke no laws and you have no idea of how they were investigated or got into the Talon database, which connects with all of the other government surveillance programs (TIA).
DoD officials also said that they didn't properly belong there and did not constitute a legitimate threat and had them removed. That was also in the papers... check the links.
Spoken like a true Reichwinger... failing to keep your promises!
Two can play that game... prove to me that they weren't entered into the Talon database because of the NSA wiretap program.
Even the DoD admitted that they didn't belong there and didn't constitute a threat and removed them from the database.
So your position is that today, any Catholic or Quaker pacifist organization, simply trying to follow the teachings of Christ are communists?
Now that is really, really, really spoken like a Reichwinger!
Not to the members of the Senate Intelligence Committee... that is unconstitutional and illegal, as are the FISA violations.
I've heard Tony Snow use a particular dodge more than once -- that even without being under oath, people "talking" to Congress are "legally compelled to tell the truth".
WTF is this assmunch talking about?
Clavis @ 79:
There is a law that any person giving statements/testimony to Congress "can be"
fined up to $5K and up to 1 year(as I recall) in prison if they lie; BUT to my knowledge
it has NEVER been used or enforced, so Snowjob is just doing some more huffing and
puffing out of his asshole.
Tony Snow is getting ahead of the Hardball spin and
setting the record straight in a clear understandable way.
Chris Matthews has presented us with a hyped, less than truthful
storyline on the Plame-CIA story for years.
According to Comey there was another person in the room at the hospital. The congress should ask Mrs. Ashcroft to testify.
Wasn't she there throughout the entire night? I'd like to see the bushies claim executive privilege with her!
AAHAHAH! WTF?
What's up with Bruce Fein turning into HOLLOWMAN half way through that clip?
With so many things happening in Washington, I can't see how Sen. Reid can possible close down the senate and go on vacation for the whole month of August. If he were to do that, I would not consider that responsible leadership on his path. This administration cannot be left without some sort of 'supervision' if you will. When the cat's away the mouse will play.
well played, Mr. Rasptuin. Looking forward to whatever Mr. Scuzman has as a reply. (of course, Rasputin said s/he'd leave, not apologize, maybe admit s/he was wrong and then leave. Maybe I'm the crazy one, but when I admit defeat in a debate I actually ADMIT defeat, not just run away and hide. then again, I typically have facts and precedent and constitutionality/legality on my side and not FUD, so it's not typically an issue. I think most liberals are open to the idea that they COULD be wrong, but the burden of proof lies with evidence, not FUD.)
Also, is it just me or does Tweety seem drunk? Like all the damn time? I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he'd had a slug of some fine kentucky bourbon before the show (hell, I know I probably would, loosen yerself up a bit) but this is the first time I ever really noticed. (In the interests of full disclosure it should be noted that I've had a couple of bottles of Fat Tire myself, and I may be projecting. I reserve the burden of judgment to those who read this, and recuse myself on this point from here on out.)(Which is more than I can say for certain Attornies General. Zing!)
monterocks @ 81:
"I am Elmer J. Fudd, Millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht."
NavyVet@74
start here for an overview,
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=19815
then do your own research.
scruzman @ 87:
Yeah Navyvet... ya gotta watch out for them Christians, they're all commies! Especially those Catholics and Quakers! Why one could be underneath your bed with a suicide belt right now. Better go look!
What scruzman seems to have forgotten is that research also indicates that both Gulf Wars were started with lies told to the American people and the world.
Research, in fact, indicates a lot of inconvenient truths...
... but let's not forget that, when it is beneficial to him, he can always dismiss the source as liberally-biased, or accuse the accuser of playing partisan politics, or simply suggest that to say such things emboldens our enemies.
Remember, there's always a way for a right-winger to make himself right. Only *his* sources can be trusted; only people who attack the people *he* hates can be believed; only the Presidents with *(R)* after their names can be respected.
Oversight and hearings were essential for TravelGate and XmasCardGate and VinceFosterGate, but investigating a self-perjuring AG or Republican U.S. Attorneys who tell of Senators strong-arming them or increasing the contacts between the White House and the DoJ from 6 people to HUNDREDS? No, investigating any of that would just be "wasting time" instead of "doing the people's business".
Of course, the Democrats could do the people's business a little better if the Republicans hadn't threatened to filibuster so many times.
Oh, wait, there I go, letting those "facts" mess up a perfectly good right-wing talking point.
Gee, if only I weren't so attached to ethics and principles, *I* could be a Republican, too! :)
Rasputin@76
Well I'll try
"They broke no laws and you have no idea of how they were investigated or got into the Talon database, which connects with all of the other government surveillance programs (TIA)."
My point was that they were so visible in their protests, that an investigation was initiated.
Wiretaps may be used during an investigation, but you're implying that there are a bunch of spooks at NSA listening in to you making a dental appointment and hoping you'll drop some information about the latest Al Qaeda plot. You have to have cause to investigate.
"DoD officials also said that they didn’t properly belong there and did not constitute a legitimate threat and had them removed."
Good For Them! Cleared! But based on their conduct they had to be checked out first, didn't they?"
"Two can play that game… prove to me that they weren’t entered into the Talon database because of the NSA wiretap program." Even the DoD admitted that they didn’t belong there and didn’t constitute a threat and removed them from the database."
Great! so what's the problem? I'm glad they're not taking bucks from the enemy this time.
"So your position is that today, any Catholic or Quaker pacifist organization, simply trying to follow the teachings of Christ are communists? Now that is really, really, really spoken like a Reichwinger!" Gotta let that one stand as it is in your own fine words.
"Not to the members of the Senate Intelligence Committee… that is unconstitutional and illegal, as are the FISA violations."
Well I believe Gonzolez offered to give them anything they wanted including all the highly classifed stuff in a private hearing. What's the status of that proposal with the libs. Do they want the information or not?
Clavis @ 89:
Clavis...
Too true, but what we all should not forget and recognize it when we see it:
clavis@87 sez:
"What scruzman seems to have forgotten is that research also indicates that both Gulf Wars were started with lies told to the American people and the world."
What history book did you read? For lies in the 2nd Gulf Ware, substitue "faulty intelligence provided by Clinton appointee G. Tenant, Great Britain, Germany and more, and also believed by Democrats".
What clavis, et al, seem to have forgotten is that there is a movement of crazy people out there waiting for an opportunity to do tremendous damage to you, me and our country. They have the means to do it. The situation is much different than the cold war in that the enemy this time is unpredictable and pervasive and has the ability to fight a patient, clandestine war. That extraordinary steps are taken to prevent their goals from being achieved, is both necessary and understandable. when Lincoln declared martial law and silenced dissent in the newspapers, it was to win the war. I hope we don't lose the war, clavis, do you?
Maybe we have to give a little to get a little.
I'm going now to get a little.
Good night and thanks!
Why Mr. Scuzman…
You are the very voice of reasonableness now and I certainly don’t mean to offend, but if you recall out exchange began when you threw out the challenge:
To which I named the members of the Catholic and Quaker pacifist organizations that were discovered to be in the DoD Talon system database and labeled as threats. These were religious pacifist, mostly composed of elderly retirees, who had broken no laws and objected to the war on the moral doctrine of their faith.
Again, these are law abiding citizens who broke no laws, regular God fearing Christians being true to the moral precepts of their faith, opposed to killing and violence in any form… not only being on a watch list and under surveillance by the FBI and the DoD, but labeled as a “threat.”
You then replied:
Here you were claiming that they weren’t the result of the NSA wiretapping program and that their activities were so visible that they had to be watched. Now you are saying:
The truth is you have no idea of how they came to be in that Talon database or what the level of their activities were that made them “visible.” The only thing known is that they we’re opposed to the war.
Further, they weren’t “cleared” until the ACLU threatened a law suit and that is something the DoD and the White House didn’t want because it would of necessity expose details of the NSA program.
What we do know is that the NSA did information share across the intelligence databases and in the case of the Talon system, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz directed all of the services to use the Talon format to track "non-validated domestic threat information." So you didn’t even have to have an accusation made against you be “validated” to be come “visible” or put under surveillance.
We also know that the FBI illegally used hundreds of national security letters to pry into American citizens phone and financial records without cause and Gonzales and the Director of the FBI admitted that to congress after the Inspector General’s report was issued.
NSA Gave Other U.S. Agencies Information From Surveillance
Fruit of Eavesdropping Was Processed and Cross-Checked With Databases
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/31/AR200512...
Early Warning
William M. Arkin on National and Homeland Security; Trimming the Government's Talons -- Or Not
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2007/07/an_end_to_domestic_s...
FBI Broke Law
By LARA JAKES JORDAN
Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) - The nation's top two law enforcement officials acknowledged Friday the Federal Bureau of Investigation broke the law to secretly pry out personal information about Americans. They apologized and vowed to prevent further illegal intrusions.
http://www.nysun.com/article/50202
As to this claim of yours:
After all of the inaccuracies and conflicting testimony that he has given only a fool would accept his terms of meeting in private, with no oath taken, and no transcript made to discuss anything.
We now know that Gonzales lied about thee being no concerns within the DoJ as to the legality of the NSA wire tap program, Deputy Director Comey’s testimony has been confirmed that nearly thirty DoJ employees threatened to resign.
You also seem to have forgotten that no one in congress has ever heard the full details of that program and that the DoJ’s own OPM personnel were denied security clearances to review the legality of that program and that is there job. It was the first time in 33 years that this has ever happened.
As to your implication that anyone opposing the war is a communist, even devout Christians who abhor killing and violence, I’ll let your own smarmy words speak for them selves:
You’ve made Goering Proud!
Hermann Goering, founder of the Gestapo, explained the strategy:
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
God, I hate people like Chris Matthews. You've got Stan Brand and Bruce Fein, both intelligent, thoughtful people who have a lot to add, but no, he's gotta rush them, control them and and talk all over them with his shrill, booming voice.
His views may not be quite as disjointed as O Rly's, but he's just as much of a control freak, and journalists are not supposed to control the conversation like that.
Maybe Tweety needs to watch the interview Bill Moyers did with Bruce Fein to see how it's done. This could have been a good interview had Tweety taken his meds before the show and chilled out a bit. He's rude and stupid which makes for a pretty bad interviewer. I'm really surprised that intelligent people like Brand and Fein would even go on this show. He should stick with interviewing Mann Coulter and her ilk.
Rasputin@91
Nice work outling the growing pains of a new organization. You've proved your point and I will leave as promised. But not without this...
"Hermann Goering, founder of the Gestapo, explained the strategy:
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
I guess if Goering said it, it must be true. Since he lost and is dead, I thought an update might be in order:
Voice or no voice, the people can always be duped. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and subverted by the President, VP, DOD, DOJ, say it over and over again, and denounce the patriots by using Hitler comparisons. It works the same in any country.
scruzman
Scuzzy...
You are neither a patriot nor a conservative, but an ideological slave, duped by an administration that has used every tactic that generations of Americans have found abhorrent; the use of torture, secret prisons, lying a nation into an illegal war, holding US citizens in detention indefinitely without being charged or given access to legal redress in any form.
You’ve openly espoused the talking points of an administration whose illegal activities as they have come to light show how far removed they are from the founding principles that this nation has always stood for and the rule of law. In fact what they and shown is a complete contempt for the law, but as Thomas Paine wrote in Common Sense:
You have come here spouting the rhetoric of fear and how we must give up our civil liberties and constitutional rights to be safe and yes, this is the same tactic that was used by Goering and Hitler to get a nation of good people to do things that we’re truly evil on a scale previously thought unimaginable.
As you say:
You would have us give up essential liberties in order to be safe, “give a little to get a little” as you put it. But as Mr. Franklin so accurately said all those years ago, “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
Or as President Eisenhower, a true conservative, once said: “If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.”
Eisenhower understood something about power and war that you don’t seem to understand, “The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without.”
The administration that you so blindly support has got you trying to wrap yourself in the flag and shouting freedom on the one hand, while talking about surrendering essential freedoms to be safe on the other. You claim that this is a different war and we must do this because of the threat “crazy people out there waiting for an opportunity to do tremendous damage to you, me and our country.”
Yet you ignore the fact that when the founding fathers penned the words in the Constitution and the Bill of rights, British troops were marching on Philadelphia and the act of signing put a sentence of death on all their heads. Their lives were in far more imminent jeopardy than ours are today yet they didn’t put those principles aside, but affirmed them!
You’ve made slanderous blanket statements about groups who oppose the war and whose civil liberties were violated claiming:
Your implication that because a few groups in the sixties who opposed the war may have received funding from the Soviets, that all of the groups of that period were communists, and that somehow that automatically makes any current dissenters of the Iraq war communists or subversive is twisted logic in the extreme.
I would again offer to you the words of a true patriot and a true conservative:
"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower
You are so right Mr. Mathews, it is a very safe place to work at this day and time, but the time is rapidly moving in the direction that the little fellow in the white house, you all in media protect and defend will not be in position to play this chess game and when that great day finely arrives, the ball will be right back in the hands of the American people and I don't need to tell you just how un safe it will be for any of these federal officials to continue on in their current postions and you can bank on the note buddy.
Impeachment or significant resignations will happen. The foundation of this House of Deceit is rotten and it can't stand very much more weight.
Login or Register to post comments.