Two Vets Go At It On Hardball
By Logan Murphy Tuesday Jul 31, 2007 9:28pm 
On Wednesday's "Hardball," VoteVet's Jon Soltz squared off with another veteran, Eric Egland, of Vets For Freedom on today's heated testimony on Capitol Hill surrounding the cover up of Pat Tillman's death. Egland--who is involved with Melanie Morgan's Move America Forward--naturally defends Bush, Rumsfeld and the generals involved in the coverup.
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Laughably, Eglund--who authored this plan for "victory" in Iraq and is mentioned as a possible replacement for corruption-embattled politician John Doolittle in California--calls Soltz's demands that Bush stop his invoking of Executive Privilege and treat the Tillman family with respect they deserve "partisan spin." Um, yeah. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
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Hmm....Egland wasn't with Tillman the day he was shot by "friendly" fire was he? I'm just sayin'
i hope america finds out the truth
I know too many soldiers that served in vietnam (101st airborne, marines etc) and this is very common. I have heard a dozen stories of troops murdering their immediate command to protect the platoon. I have heard stores of incompetant platoon leaders calling artillery and airstrikes on their own positions out of ignorance - they were killed. Stories of commanders that pointlessly endangered the platoon - they were killed.
I'm absolutely not condoning this, but making the point that this is and has been how troops have dealt with the problem of a platoon commander endangering the platoon. For all I know, Tillman was a bad leader. I dont know and am not claiming as much.
What I doubt is that he was targeted and killed for any other reason than to eliminate a preceived threat to the unit - or a bizare accident.
In any case, this needs to be pursued but get it off the headlines. It is sucking the O2 out of the room at a time when we need to be paying very close attention to other issues.
Tillman was NOT an incompetent leader. Do some research. He was very well respected and admired. Jeez.
Why will no one on television ever please point out the fact that Tillmans' clothes and his diary, for gawd's sake, were burned. How can that possibly be standard operating procedure to burn a diary?
bush invoking executive privilege on everything, as if he's some sort of fairy waving his little wand and sprinkling magic dust to make the problems go away ...
Screw Eric Egland. I hope he goes back & finds himself in the same position Tillman was in,... & see how quick he is to defend the cover up,...
HELLO CROOKS AND LIARS! This site has been totally on the ball lately with the constant videos of the shows I want to see. GREAT JOB and keep up the good work!
anon, dude, Pat was a Specialist. He didn't lead anything. He was a college grad, he could have gone officer but instead went enlisted. That shows charactor. Tillman was a demi-god. I'm just so sad for his mom. She raised an amazing son.
The Truth Should Not Be Hidden
The very FACT that Bush is withholding information by invoking executive privilege is proof enough the guy at the top, Bush, is hiding additional information.
This time, it does not take a long written explanation to convince Americans you are right. The fact speaks for the situation. Now the so-called truth of the first cover up is covering up the ugliest cover up of all: Tillman may of been murdered.
Joseph
To be fair, Pat made corporal after he died.
Tillman and Lynch. More GOP lies. There is not a division of government this cancer has not infected.
Doolittle and corruption...WOW.....regardless of his political leanings.....to muddy up that name is a disgrace.....
Strawberry @ 9:
And Bush landed on an aircraft carrier years after he went AWOL and skipped combat duty. The measure of a man vs. the measure of a cowardly, entitled chimp.
Strawberry @ 9:
Strawberry..I believe he was a specialist 4 which is an e-4 which is the same as a corporal......but they are not quite the same..it's a wierd military thing
executive priviledge is almost always used to cover a crime and needs to thought of
in that way.
oh and that was before he died......atleast the pics of him on the news show that.
'Everytime Cheny smiles like that, an angel gets waterboarded.' Jon Stewart keeps me sane.
Straight Shooter,
Apparently you've never served in the military. It is SOP. Also, what "research" do you refer to? Have you ever been in combat? Show me one piece of "evedience" from your research that when Tillman was in the forces he was a respected and admired leader. Do you know the pressures that are out there? You can't do any "research" on how someone will react in combat and what their leadership attributes are.
Tillman was murdered because he was against the Iraq war. Plain and simple.
Egland is right about one thing: justice is partisan. You won't find any on the republican side.
mudshark @ 13:
Yup, it is weird. Not to be a typical female but when hubby went from Spec to Corp, I was like 'Yeah and...what... no pay raise...whatever.' Hubby was kinda' crestfallen.
Ha! With fights like that breaking out all over...... Bush is no commander in chief.
One of the biggest oxymorons in the English language must be the phrase friendly fire. There is nothing friendly about being shot or fragged by one's own troops. Bush's invoking of executive privilege to seemingly cover up Tillman's death adds another reason why Bush should be impeached. But for the Democrats to do the obvious might impair their chances of winning in 2008. Apparently the last things the Democrats wish to have happen is for truth and integrity to win out over political expediencey.
EVERYTHING this administration does comes from the top. Nothing happens unless the political arm directs it to happen. After what I have seen this group do, I would not put it past them for one instant to order their poster boy killed once it got back to them that he was against this "fucking illegal war".
Another thing, no officer is going to stake his career on something like the coverup of a fragging. This coverup was signed off on from the very top.
Strawberry @ 7:
What I said was troops fragged people who endangered them - commonly leaders. I also said either this was a fragging or a bizare accident. What it likely isnt is a hit from higher up.
If the command struction and political structure are obfuscating etc - which they probably are - it is probably the result of the way they over glorified him in the first place followed by using his death again (possibly) for propaganda. This isnt the same thing as a hit. It is likely that he was either fragged or it was an accident.
David @ 17:
Pat was here at Fort Lewis, I never got to see him, but being a gym rat...we gossiped, a lot, he was really hard core, even for the Rangers. A lot of losers were jealous. And he was smart, and friggin' hot.
Let me guess: The vet with the word "Freedom" in his organization, is the pro-war rightwinger who is defending Bush. Just an educated guess.
It should be "Patriotic Freedom Justice For The Troops With Us Or Against Us Red White Blue Flag Vets".
How does invading/destroying a defenseless country constitute "freedom"?
Yup, Big Dan, and I'd really like to know "Freedoms" MOS. Ten to one he was a desk jockey or MI.
Was the "Freedom" vet asked any questions pertaining to THIS:
"A new report from the AP's Martha Mendoza confirms what has been obvious all along: Pat Tillman was not the victim of accidental "friendly fire".
With three bullet holes in his forehead, with his diary and uniform burned, with his opinion of the war ("so fucking illegal") well-established, with his access to mainstream American media absolutely guaranteed, there was never any reason to accept the Army's changing story of Pat Tillman's not-so-accidental death.
Quite simply, the former Arizona State and NFL star could not be allowed to return home to tell what he had seen. He couldn't even be allowed to talk to Noam Chomsky on the telephone.
According to "news" reports which have mostly tried to paint her as crazy, Pat Tillman's mother has felt all along that her son was killed deliberately -- by people who should have been on his side. I have felt the same thing ever since I heard he was dead, and especially once the details of the tragedy began to emerge."
http://winterpatriot.blogspot.com/2007/07/new-details-support-old-story-...
Of course not!!! Not in the CMSM!!! Well, many people, including the Tillman family, know EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED! This is just the BEGINNING of this investigation!
The "news" will try to paint the Tillman family as "crazy"...of course... Sadly? It works on idiots.
Leaders using Executive Priveledge. They may as well plead the 5th Amendment, for all sense of openness and honesty it evokes.
how can anyone align with Melanie Morgan. She has 34 pounds of hot dog filler the plastic surgeon put in her lips
Big Dan @ 30:
Not crazy, Big Dan. Pat was an athiest. Dog tags, last rights and all that. Remember the worm dirt comment. Right wingers are already saying he got what he deserved because he didn't take Jesus as his personal savior...what ever the fuck that means.
For cryin' out loud...what's up with your spellcheck?
So, our King George has decided that we the people don't have any right to know what really happened to a well known volunteer soldier who supported John Kerry and opposed the occupation of Iraq? What in God's name is going to take for people in this country to have the second American revolution? If the death of an American soldier who volunteered after the 9/11 tragedy is such an important state secret, we have to ask ourselves why that might be. The only conclusion I can reach is that he was a threat to the propagandists in Washington, D.C.
"Crooks and Liars" really epitomizes the essense of this story. A brave man joined the military to fight in Afghanistan after 9/11 but was first sent to Iraq, which pissed him off. There is some evidence that he was murdered for his political and/or atheist beliefs. How many times has his death been investigated? How many times has the Army investigated its own response? Every new investigation brings out a new level of slime. It has been too long for the "truth" to ever be known. At this point, the doctrine of executive priviledge is all that is keeping Bush and Cheney in office.
[...] House Contact the Webmaster Link to Article iraq Two Vets Go At It On Hardball » Posted at Crooks and Liars on Wednesday, [...]
OK people, I'm a Viet Nam Vet and a retired deputy sheriff with swat sniper expert qualifications. The coroner reported that Pat had THREE tight group shots to the FOREHEAD!
Any questions???
Three thight group shots to the fucking forehead!
Do your research before you spout off!
And fuck that twerp Eric England. What a PUNK!
The Tillman family deserves the godamn truth and nothing less!!!!!
Vicarious liability dictates that the buck stops at the TOP!!!
I wish Soltz would have stuck to the propaganda aspect of Tillman's death, rather than the "truth" behind his death.
The honest truth about the truth behind his death is, we'll never know. And the suggestions he was purposely killed only conjures up conspiracy theories which undercut the more probable explanation:
Tillman's death was an accident that was then spun for political gain by the Bushies. A scenario that's much easier to believe and prove.
Most Americans revile the idea of a soldier's death being covered up and deceptively used for propaganda and political gain.
Even if we were to prove he was murdered, unless you could somehow prove Bush or Rummy ordered the murder, it couldn't reflect poorly on them as they can't be held responsible for every "rogue" soldier. Which is why Egland was taking that tact.
Like Senator Kerry said: "How do you ask a soldier to be the last man to die in a lost war?"
Well sheEEEZAAAAAAAAMMMMMM SARGE....I'll do it!
bamboozled @ 38:
People like you are who I was talking to!! Your completely out of line! Do some research!
The Tillmans deserve the truth. The fact that they burned his diary is unacceptable, Bush’s invoking of executive privilege to block information is unacceptable. The cover up is unacceptable.
This is not a trivial matter, it's just that the outrages are coming to light so fast and furious that it is getting difficult to focus.
But no way should they be allowed to get away with this.
The Brother- I'm with you bro, I tried to quote your comment and it wouldn't even come up. How fucking sad here.
This shuld be kept at the fore front of every leadin in reference to the GUTLESS SPINELESS COWARD commander in chief you know that worthless turd that is missing a back bone. Every repukulan shoulkd be reminded that they are G U T L E S S and everytime they mouth those brave m,en and women should be asked why they are doing the goose step shuffle rather then the I am a man and have the balls to prove it. and STANDUP and defend what they so ademently talk about.
I guess that can't be done because when the leader is a worthless limp of humanity cowardly and treacherous the support staff is also.
Now start hitting the worthless republicans about their lack of BACKBONE to open the accountablity and investigation on this COVERUP.
Digzzz @ 42:
OK, I agree with what you say about Bush invoking EP but where do you get that Pat Tillman's diary was burned? Would you mind posting a credible link to that assertion?
I agree that Bush is a scumbag and yes, in the back of my head, I am thinking he might have ordered a hit but I am trying not to jump to conclusions or conspiracy theories. But he's definitely hiding something.
However, if Tillman's diary was destroyed, well that's a bonus smoking gun.
All talk no action. Pat Tillman murder was premeditated. Bush wanted to use Tillman in his State of the Union Address but Tillman was out spoken about voting for John Kerry. Yes Pat was doing alot of talking about what was really going on in Afghan and the White House didn't like it. Like most cowards the White House told Rummy to handle it. Rummy passed the buck. Then the set up of murder as an eye witness say he saw sharpshooters. Notice that Pat was killed with two shots right to the head. No one else was hurt. You have to be a good shooter to hit your target yet no one else. We have an Administration that is no only criminal but murderers. Notice how American sit back and do nothing as the crime wave continues. Look to the end of the Bush Crime team and Americans will have to pay for all the crimes and damage this group has done. Yes Iraq will order the United States to rebuild and pay for all the damages and lives lost. All the law suits from those who were tortured by the US and sent to other countries to be tortured. Don't worry about the Iraq oil Cheney will lost that too. Now the only winners are the Middle East which is now laughing at the stupidity of the US Government and Israel who will have gotten weapons and money from the US.
Excuse my ignorance, but what purpose or reason would Bush have for using Executive Priviledge in this matter. I've seen reasons like "covering it up." But doesn't it seem too obvious that exercising EP would make people say "WTF?" I seem to be saying that just about everyday with this President - "WTF?" I guess Bush basically doesn't care what people think when he evokes this or that.
Jackie in answer to your questions about "Americans sitting back." For the most part, we pretty much keep informed of the issues. But I just wonder how many Americans actually really care. They may think, "boy this war is taking a long time." But other then that, that may be the extent of their concern. As long as it doesn't directly affect their daily lives and they can go about their business, everything is fine with the world.
I wish I was like that. Life would be much less stressful and I would get more done if I wasn't so addicted to this blog. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
Sholz could have done a better job. He finally got around to the important point at the end when it was difficult to hear. The investigation is incomplete and there are many unanswered questions. Bush is blocking a full investigation at the expense of a greiving family. It is easy to understand and it is a dubious and suspicious action by a President that Americans trust less and less. I would have conceeded somewhat to the whacko, that the pentagon and Bush aren't neccesarilly involved directly but that we don't know for sure, because Bush is blocking the investigation. Again, grossly inconsiderate to the Tillmans and suspicious to boot.
Phej Omatic @ 38:
Jackie @ 46:
I don't have the link, but read yesterday that autopsy stated Tillman was FIRST shot in leg, hip and hand, THEN got the coupdegrâce of 3 close shots to forehead. What say you to this, friend?
Silver Digit @ 45:
Tillman's family learned years ago that his diary was burned, along with his flack jacket. Why do you think they wanted an explanation? Because burning his diary was NOT standard procedure.
It seems that the GOP talking points on this mess are:
A) It was a mistake on the ground.
B) The top brass had to go with the information from the field.
C) The Democrats are going after __________ for partisan reasons.
D) There is nothing to see here, move along.
E) I don't recall
[...] Two Vets Go At It On Hardball By: Logan Murphy [...]
"Talk about the pot calling the kettle black."
Uh, no. That is NOT the pot calling the kettle black. That is the pot LYING.
When did Soltz ever act that way? I'm waiting for an answer.
Shell5960w @ 53:
Shell, it means that Eglund was accusing Soltz of the exact thing he was guilty of.
There is only one POSSIBLE reason for Bush to invoke his bogus "executive privilege" in this case, and that's to obstruct an honest and sincere investigation into the whole situation surrounding Tillman's death.
Once again, Bush is using executive privilege to cover up for his administration's crimes.
Jon is great, but I don't think he handled this the right way. Nobody has to imply that chimpy and dick ordered a hit on this guy (even if it is true). The talking point that was repeated about 20 times in this segment was, "commanders on the ground provided the wrong information, you can't blame people at the top for that."
Correct response: If this was a simple error or even a cover-up by the commanders on the ground, then why is they white house claiming executive privilege? Oh, and why did this roll all the way up to a 3 star general? Why are we just finding out now that he was shot in the face, multiple times, at a distance where you could read his nametag?
Force them to put facts behind the talking points. Since there aren't any, the point fails and they look pretty stupid.
The fact that both these imbeciles are 'vets' means they both agreed to fight in Bush's illegal war, ergo, they initially agreed with Bush and supported his Iraq fiasco. Now one of them has 'seen the light' while while the other still suffers from optic-rectalitis. In short words---f$%k them both! Too little, too late! End of discussion.
I'm somewhat perplexed at what seems to me to ABSOLUTE bitterness. Bush's illegal war?
Do ANY of you understand what's at stake? I surmise that you do not. More's the pity, especially when the future of our Great Nation is at stake. Would you folks prefer to fight Islamic extremists in U.S. as opposed to doing it in Iraq? Your blind stupidity is beyond reasoning.
SpankyTheMonkey @ 57:
Not necessarily...
Tillman, as an example, enlisted after 9/11 and supported going after Bin Laden in Afghanistan. He also was against the war in Iraq and was not a supporter of Bush Co.
A lot of the soldiers in Iraq were in the military prior to 9/11 for many reasons. To many who came from a lower economic background, it was a way for them to afford college and health care.
We have one poster on this site who enlisted just before 9/11 because she couldn't get health care for her son who had a severe medical problem. It was the only way she could afford to get him coverage.
So please don't be so narrow in your condemnations.
Shouldn't Move America Forward since it is a Republican entity and "R" in your car and in politics is "reverse," shouldn't it be called Move America Backward?
Shouldn’t Move America Forward since it is a Republican entity and “R” in your car and in politics is “reverse,” be called Move America Backward?
listen to how rummy answers, he never denies a cover up he only states that he or the others at the table were not involved in a cover up. this might be true and in my opinion it came from the administrations publicity department. no one at the table yesterday could answer why an eye witness's testimony was changed.
Melanie Morgan the "just blitzkrieg them all" and "kill them all".
Chicken Hawk.
myiq2xu @ 51:
F) Executive Privilidge.
By the way, one of the Generals was subpeoned that did not show up. A 3 star.
Anybody who watched 60 Minutes over the years know how bad the army treats it’s soldiers, women or foreign civilians… What da frig do you expect ? That they would let a believable American darling come back from hell and spill the beans for all to see and count ? Americans are so naïve it hurts !
Meanwhile…
9/11 = Reichstag Fire
Joseph Goebells = FOX News
Hindenburgs Decree = Patriot Act
Communists = Terrorists
New World Order = The Third Reich
Homeland = Homeland
Yep ! Land of the...rather be a Slave than stand up for Truth, Justice & the Constitution and Home of the Not So Brave anymore ! Except with bombs & uranium munition against civilians, women & children...
Gonzo nailed it right a while ago...
"We have become a monster in the eyes of the whole world – a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us… No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we’ll kill you." – Hunter S. Thompson
A Constitutional Duty (Seymour Hersh)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9HP_SWNw4
Somethings are debateable this is not it.
Why is Mike Barnicle on TV?
Old Shoe
A vet attacking his own power structure is more heroic than a vet that hangs out with the rich so he might get rich too.
Wasn't Melanie Morgan booted off of Lehrer's Newshour because she was all attack, no substance...
Except collagen?
These asshole are defending that shit smells good.
r.davis @ 58:
Where are they fighting us again, Mr. Keyboard Kommando? In Iraq...where they WEREN'T until we invaded. Where are they based? In Afghanistan, where BushCo took their eye off the ball to go into Iraq on a revenge mission.
To echo your comment, YOUR blind stupidity is beyond reasoning to those of us who live in the real world.
Like a petition would make them tell us the truth? They won't even honor Congressional subpoenas! They're laughing at a simple petition. We need to do something drastic. The only thing we can do at this point is impeachment.
We're not fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq, but insurgents, adventurers, and a small Al Qaeda inspired cell. While we're pinned down in Iraq and Afghanistan (the forgotten war) other cells are attacking at will where they will.
Egland is the clown who is running against Doolittle isn't he? Just what the Congress needs, another "born again backwards" and a disciple of Melanie Morgan.
These people never let the facts and truth get in their way. Sad commentary.
navy vet-----Cut the keyboard commando crap bud. I'M still in the fight. I suggest you broaden your horizons abit and figure out just who took their eye off the ball. Have mistakes been made?
You bet your sweet A** ! HOWEVER--just blindly critisizing is not the solution.
It's official Egland is running.
From what I've heard though Doolittle loyalists (there is no reason to vote for the guy other than loyalty) will never trade Doolittle in.
r.davis @ 77:
I should've used that argument about criticising not being the solution when my teachers gave my graded work back.
stoltz is awesome... every single time i see him on tv I am impressed with his composure, candor, and FACTS!
This guy knows what he's talking about and has the facts to back up his points.
77 ysbaddaden---A little off the mark in my opinion. The grading criteria here is much different I think. In times past our politcal parties have put put their differences aside for the common good of all. Oft times there was little admiration, but there was respect. I respect the rights of others to disagree with my opinion. You may not agree with all that say, but you MAY concede that I am not completely wrong. Extremism of any shade is dangerous, be it left, right, atheist, religious, or whatever. Fundamentalists are often willing to go over the cliff for their leader. Note I did not say follow. The leader seldom approches the edge, just encourages others. So, --take the emotions out of arguments and attempt to look at things from various perspectives. nuff said.
For any agreement or disagreement there first has to be a discussion. Something booshco failed to do in their rush to war.
To suddenly flip from a no discussion stance to a plaintative let's have a discussion now is the hallmark of bullies.
ysbaddaden---So now your saying that you know what they are thinking?? Have you ever rushed in to something, and then regretted that initial action? It's convienent to place people, things, and situations into catagories, but those are not always accurate. Also, I am not bush&co. I am me, no more no less, and this discussion is with me. Out for the day got to run, be I'll be back tomorrow.--Cheers to all.
This war, like Vietnam, really brings out the best in us, doesn't it?
Republicans are going to use this war the way they used Vietnam for 25 years - to hammer Democrats for being weak on defense and national security. Never mind that Bush made the miscalculation of a generation by deceiving the public into supporting his miscalculation, this war is going to have fallout for the next few presidential election cycles.
Connect the dots;
Pat Tillman
Paul wellstone
Mel Carnahan
Gary Webb
Hunter S. Thompson
Konstantinow Boulis
A little interest goes a long way?
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