Hold on, Christian soldiers
By Steve Benen Wednesday Aug 22, 2007 8:15amBush’s Defense Department recently agreed to distribute “freedom packages” to U.S. soldiers in Iraq, as prepared by a fundamentalist Christian ministry called Operation Straight Up (OSU). As the LAT explained, OSU’s packages included “Bibles, proselytizing material in English and Arabic and the apocalyptic computer game ‘Left Behind: Eternal Forces’ (derived from the series of post-Rapture novels), in which ’soldiers for Christ’ hunt down enemies who look suspiciously like U.N. peacekeepers.”
By agreeing to distribute these “freedom packages,” the Pentagon seemed to be endorsing the idea that the U.S. military presence in Iraq should include more fundamentalist Christian evangelism. Fortunately, after the Military Religious Freedom Foundation raised a fuss, the Defense Department backpedaled and announced it would not deliver OSU’s packages, but the larger problem persists.
American military and political officials must, at the very least, have the foresight not to promote crusade rhetoric in the midst of an already religion-tinged war. Many of our enemies in the Mideast already believe that the world is locked in a contest between Christianity and Islam. Why are our military officials validating this ludicrous claim with their own fiery religious rhetoric?
It’s time to actively strip the so-called war on terror of its religious connotations, not add to them. Because religious wars are not just ugly, they are unwinnable. And despite what Operation Straight Up and its supporters in the Pentagon may think is taking place in Iraq, the Rapture is not a viable exit strategy.
Well said. Now, if only Bush’s Defense Department would stop giving everyone reason to be afraid.
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Can't we sue to stop this stuff.
Is there not an organization out there with the lawyers and money to challenge this program.
My God, we spent the 50's and 60's fighting about religion in schools and thought it was settled.
Those who preferred a more religious program opted for private faith based schools while the realty based stuck with secular education.
This stuff has no place in the military and somehow we must stop it NOW.
"in which ’soldiers for Christ’ hunt down enemies who look suspiciously like U.N. peacekeepers.”
Oh, good to know who your enemies are. Amazing way to get allies and help.
"the Rapture is not a viable exit strategy."
I'm putting that on a sign and taking it to the anti-war protest next Tuesday, along with...
"Support the war = End the troops"
Can you guys throw me any more catchy slogans?
It has been my observation that the Evangelical right has been slowly infiltrating the Military. Just as the evangelical right has becaome not a religeous concern but a political one. They have also decided that they need to populate the military with fundamentalists as well. It is my beleif that the increase of evangelicals in the leadership of the military
is a huge reason why we are finding it so difficult to get out of Iraq. There is a certain segment of the military population that believes they are doing Gods work in Iraq.
They need to find who in the Pentagon okay-ed these packages in the first place and fire him or her. They can use insanity for the reason.
It doesn't matter, I'm sure Bush referring to the Iraq war as a 'crusade' back in the beginning was all the fuel our enemies needed for recruiting and motivation.
Thanks Bush!
Bush invented/exploited "the enemies".
I believe that this administration, chocked full as it is with Regent University graduates and other extreme so-called Christians, knows exactly what it's doing in supporting and promoting evangelical fundamentalist Christianity in the military. It is making war on Islam. Too many people with too much power and influence from the ranks of the fundamentalists see Bush's War as a holy war. It appears Bush sees it that way himself. God save us from those intent upon destroying everything in their delusions that this war (and the war to come in Iran, Syria, etc.) is paving the way for the second coming.
These guys are insanely stupid for even considering introducing fundy crap into an area that's already suspicious of our troops.
C'mon, relax. Don't you know we're going to "take back America" after the 2008 election? Don't you realize the Democrats will save the day for we, the people?
Why, all we need is somebody with a "D" after their name in the White House, instead of an "R". That will make everything better. Especially if it's Hilary Clinton. She's a logical, liberal person. I'm sure she is one politician who would never stoop to putting up with this kind of chicanery.
Clinton/Obama '08! Go Dems!
"I say quite deliberately the the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world." (Bertrand Russell 1927)
FREEDOM PACKAGES? I think I am going to puke....
Calling the mess we've made a "religion-tinged" war is a bit of an understatement, no?
Hey all I ever wanted when I was in Iraq was for one of my platoon mates to start rolling around on the ground speaking in tongues during a firefight.
Wow.
How screwed up has this country become under Bush's reign?
It just boggles my mind how much damage he's done to every institution from the military to the Constitution, from personal privacy to the Geneva Conventions, from the environment to the internet, from public safety to watching television. He's like the anti-Midas.
"the Rapture is not a viable exit strategy", is one of the best lines of all this horrific insanity. It deserves to be in Apoclayse Now. I make the Vietnam reference in all due respect to the President, for clearly Iraq is as winnable as Vietnam.
baby jesus loves Mikey Weinstein & MRFF
SonOfLiberty @ 3:
sure how about praise de lard and hang the pricks
props to Max Blumenthal for breaking this story
someone prove me wrong, and I mean facts and such, not faith and stupidity
talking about religion, dealing with religion, being exposed to religion, etc..
is a lesson in, stupidity, retardation, xenophobia, superiority, narcissism, inferiority, and most of all, death and destruction. baseless bullshit meant to tame the feelings, indemnify the masses, and steal.
as humans, why are we stupid enough to allow people to talk about it? keep it to your self and you won't cause misery for someone else. open your mouth and someone loses. we have to wake up and make it a taboo to ever discuss it.
it is only comforting to someone willing to forego reality, and we have too many people that are comfortable
The "Left Behind" video game is what disturbs me the most on two levels.
1. I'm hardly a Jack Thompson fan, but I would think that having soldiers play a First Person Shooter game where the enemies are non-Christians might be enough to send some soldiers over the edge, what with stress levels at their current level from extended and re-extended tours of duty.
2. To me video games mean escapism. I don't play video games where I'm a computer programmer so why would soldiers want to play a game that would remind them of some part of the job that they have to perform? I would think that maybe sending over John Madden football games and Guitar Hero would be more appreciated.
Of course, guitars are instruments of the devil, and John Madden has been proven to be a lower-level demon of hell so I guess those are bad choices for a Christian group.
Again, as I stated the other day, they always have "freedom", "liberty", "patriot", etc...in the names of these things and organizations.
The devil himself could not have claimed more souls had he invented religion himself.
At no time in history has there been as much evidence that those who say they believe.....are actually lying.
Well said?
I don't know - first the war in Iraq is not the so-called war on terror (buying into the Bush meme there) and:
Second, all of it is religious -from the Sunni and Shia sects in Iraq to the guys strapping themselves with bombs in the al Queda-based terrorism. Which is but one reason we never should have gone into Iraq in the first place.
So, in stripping the so-called war on terror (which again, is not Iraq) of it's religious connotations", i.e., call it something else - we make it winnable?
On the other hand, the rapture not being an exit strategy is great but neither new nor novel.
There's one reason above every other reason why the military should avoid religion like the plague. Religionists are weak and cowardly. Every single quality that you could attribute to the warrior spirit is adulterated by religious beliefs. If you were to read the Art of War, you'd find that almost every piece of advice is contradicted by the Bible, Koran, or whatever religious book you choose. Religion isn't how you win a war, it is how you enter into an eternally unwindable struggle that will last as long as it takes to bankrupt the nation and kill off it's youth. We're already on the losing end of an insurgency and the only thing the fundamentalists at home want to do is to cause more hate and discontent while the military is trying to "win the hearts and minds" of the enemy.
Hell, why stop at Crusade video games; maybe each platoon on patrol can be lead by a soldier carrying a large brass crucifix atop a pole.
Only the radical Christians in this country would be dumb enough and arrogant enough to think that adding more fundamentalist religion to a region already overflowing with it would do anything to help it.
All theists are parasites - whether they know it or not. There are no exceptions.
This must be a joke. How can anyone think introducing an aggressive form of Christianity into a region already racked by religious conflict think it's a good idea?
Evangelicals evangelize. They believe that they must convert others to their beliefs by any means. There have been children who have been trained to bring out the Bible in public school and scream their beliefs at the other children at school. If they are stoopped then they yell that their religion is under attack. Just one of the problems at the Air Force Academy has been that Evangelical officers are basing promotions on how "christian" a candidate is and they will bring that into the branch. Remember that non-fundamentalists (Catholics, Lutherans, etc.) are not considered "christian" to these people.
When a Democratic president is put in office, the fundies who are now incompetent in office and placed in higher positions than they deserve will cry religious discrimination when they are fired or demoted.
And, also and aside, a Iraqi Christian (Catholic) friend of mine now tells me that Iraqi Christians are now being "converted" to Islam at gunpoint by Islamic fundamentalists. It's convert or die. Now all we need is for these christo-faschists to do the same thing on the other side (see mAnne Coulder).
[...] Via Crooks and Liars [...]
Believe in God not institutional religion.
momofsonofwar @ 31:
This is the latest spin that's taught in most of the super churches I've visited. It is nothing but a deflection and a play on words. The churches are shielding themselves from the massively growing criticism of religion by claiming to be a religion-free institution of God. Bullshit!
So, Since it's obvious that it has been about oil, we now have to make it a crusade. When you can't find the WMD, Make the war (No, Invasion and Occupation) about something else!
Don't hate me for my freedom!
The separation of church and state was first conceived as something that protected religion from the state. How well our modern experience illuminates the wisdom of that idea. The so-called fundamentalists have forgotten the fundamentals of their own religion, which has been hijacked by politics. The teachings of Jesus have been cast aside and replaced with the teachings of St. James Swaggart, St. Patrick Robertson and St. Jerome Falwell. None of whom seem to have any real understanding of the scriptures. They look to me just like the hypocritical 'nest of vipers' Jesus warned us of.
They all deserve a good kick in the fundament, as far as I'm concerned.
Norse @ 2:
Duh, your enemies are anyone who opposes war. Right?
Bush scores points with his base on this one, even though it was doomed from the start. He knew this shit wouldn't fly, and I'm sure his people knew that as well. The fact that we need a foundation, such as the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is the result of a deliberate campaign to infiltrate the military with (anti)Christian fundamentalists. It was a campaign that the administration KNEW was innapropriate, and they knew it would evoke a strong reaction from the many non-pentacostal members of the armed services (if you've worked with them, you'd definitely know why).
Now that they've forced the creation of an organization to block the religious polarization of the service, their disingenuous attempts at said polarization are even more effective. Now, instead of such programs being quietly absorbed, each attempt is a news item that plays as SECULARS vs. JESUS. They're harvesting the seeds of apathy and ignorance they've spent the last 30 years sowing.
To summarize:
Successfully impliment crazy fundamentalist programs = Win
Visibly fail to impliment crazy fundamentalist programs = Win
The establishment clause was concieved for just this reason. Clerics will always be considered untainted sources of opinion and information by their followers. If corrupt government leaders can harness the ideological loyalties of the church, and get support from the pulpit, they are essentially impervious to questioning or criticism in the minds of the churchgoers.
Atheists and non-fundamentalist Christians need to stop bickering and realize they need to work together before we end up under one-church rule again.
According to Presidential candidate Rapture Ralph, this was all part of the "Coulter Plan for Mideast Stability".
Sound like a new client for Karl Rove.
Notice that they came up with an ancronym close to the goodwill agency USO? Nothing like quietly confusing the intention.
I agree with POP @5 that there was someone who initially approved the packages to be sent. There should be an investigation and then kicked out on their ass.
The 'us against them' mentality of the fundies is is pathetic. But then I'm called naive and 'a librel' that I espouse trying to find common ground.
SonOfLiberty @ 3:
"We're all wearing the blue dress now"
[Deleted. Flamebait]
SadButTrue @ 34:
Correction. The separation of church and state was first conceived to protect the government and the public at large from religion.
Let's call these people what they are. They are NOT Evangelical Christian Fundamentalists, they are Evangelical cultists and radical extremist fundamentalists and they are just as violent and a greater danger to the country than every Arab terrorist alive today. When we refer to them in any other words we are legitimizing them when we should be combating them with every political and legal tool know to man.
"1. Being an evangelical is not radical. Attempting, bad-mouthing evangelism, and its wider context, religion, is."
Not all evangelicals are radicals, but some unfortunately are. When they would seek to destroy freedoms in this country, people need to warned. Religion is the product of fallible human beings and is subject to abuse. To deny this is dishonesty. To ignore it is to risk losing democracy and gaining a theocracy.
RE: #39
damn, I was going to chew up the other points too!
"Operation Straight Up" Wonder if Paula Abdul will be their spokesperson.
Anyhow, what a fucking pussy god is this that needs "Christian Soldiers" to fight evil? Isn't god omnipotent? Or is he/she just that lazy...
Now if we could just get them Christian soldiers, Jewish soldiers, Muslim soldiers, Hindu soldiers, Belzebub soldiers, Scientology soldiers et al to slug it out with their bare hands over in Antarctica that would be great. Hopefully they all get a one-way ticket there, and leave the rest of us the hell alone. Tell you what, which ever group wins means that their god is the only true one so they get to stay and convert them penguins.
[Deleted. Consult the commenting policy]
SonOfLiberty @ 3:
how about "bush is a dick"
Bholland @ 1:
...and those who opted for private faith-based schools still were forced to pay taxes for public schools, which they philosophically disagreed with. See it works both ways. You can't force religion in public schools, but you also shouldn't have the right to use non-participants hard-earned income to get your kid the "quality" public school "reality-based" education, which continues to produce graduates sub-par in performance to privately schooled children and...um...the rest of the industrialized world.
Rich @ 48:
Oh yes, the "I got mine, screw the rest" school of thought. It doesn't get any more Christian than that. In fact let's allow the rich to be the only ones who can afford decent education, and let the poor people get stuck with worsening school systems.
Where have I seen this movie? Oh yeah, 20 years ago when idiots like you made sure we ended up with the HMO-based health system. Which is working so great BTW: We pay twice as much to get a service not even ranked in the top 20. I mean, capitalism at its best! Don't libertarians get tired of being proven wrong over, and over, and over again?
Let me see if I can try it too:" I walk and bike to work, why should I pay my taxes that pay for the roads that you use to transport your arse using a 2 ton vehicle?"
Of course we could all pay more taxes and make sure everyone gets access to a better education, which would in the end benefit us in the long run as a society. But I guess long term planning does not compute inside most right wingers feeble little minds.
So when Christian Soldiers capture prisoners, do they crucify them?
Remember when the troops were all given prayer cards to fill out and mail to President Bush to give him strength while sending them to war?
Here is the "PRESIDENTIAL PRAYER REQUESTS" FOR THE WEEK OF AUGUST 23-29, 2007. (Get your barf bag ready.)
http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ppt_homep...
Rich @ 48:
We also have to pay taxes to the cops and military whether or not we support them.
baby jesus says believe in institutional religion, then at least you are believing in something real
dan @ 42:
In other words, they are Evangelical Christians.
'Freedom Package'? or bargain bin from Half Priced Books?
Erin @ 51:
Holly crap! There is just so much wrong with that tripe.
This is part of the neocongame plan!
Instead of two main religious factions going at each other they see reason to throw our forces into the middle of the religious strife boiling over in Iraq as we speak. Wow! This is getting very scary on so many levels but this move and the continued presense of our forces weilding tanks and rifles and helicopters and Jets and grenades and BIBLES is too damned much! they know that this news will spread and it will have very negative consequences.
These thugs - Baldwin and his cohorts - can be stopped with their own gamebook.
1) The old testiment - the judaic bible - ended as 'law' with the death of Jesus on the cross. The judaic bible - mosaic law - does not apply to christians. (Google it for more detail - end of mosaic law. Old testament - judaic bible - its judaic not christian.
2) Book of Revelation has nothing - literally nothing - to do with christian law. Revelation is prophecy. Nothing more. (Many dont believe it has any place in the new testament). This is important so I will repeat it. Christians need to focus on christian law - and there is no christian law in the old testament and no christian law in Revelation. People that take action based upon Revelation are fools and are committing acts not mandated by christian law, as Revelation has NOTHING to do with christian law. Those christians that I know that study revelation do so as a curiosity. They understand it isnt a playbook. They believe it doesnt describe anything they must do, just what will happen. They are not called to perform any specific act.
A comment on the importance of point 1. Jews, as a direct consequence of their law, are more than willing to fight wars and kill. I'm not demonizing here, just commenting. Consider masada - roman siege of the mountain top stronghold. The jews there finally killed themselves rather than be taken by the romans. Why not fight? One reason and it had nothing to do with a lack of willingness to fight. They would have had to fight on the sabbath. These were orthodox jews and while killing and war were ok, fighting on the sabbath was not. So they killed themselves. Sounds harsh I know. But look at the recent war with Lebanon. The war and killing didnt cause much of an issue. Why? Judaic law. Judaic law - including the old testament is filled with war and killing. There are jews that put peace in the center. (Islam isnt much different).
What is the point of the above? Many christians try to follow the law of the old testament - mosaic law, part of judaic law - AND christian law - the first few books of the new testament or peshita - and revelations, which isnt christian law at all - ALL AT THE SAME TIME. People, you just cant hold the notions of the old testament and peshita simultaneously in your heads as law without your heads exploding. Old testament - war and killing are ok - peshita - war and killing are bad (by virtue of the emphasis on love and peace). You end up believing that opposites are equal and both law. That cant work and explains why people like Pat Robertson are nuts - lilteraly.
So what? Baldwin can be confronted for:
1) Following mosaic law
2) Acting on Revelation
He is wrong on both counts and his position/actions are indefensible.
I'm rambling. This combination of mosaic law, christian law and revelation as action plan isnt christianity. It is closer to what are its true roots - the roman empire.
(unedited)
I thought packages including ‘Left Behind: Eternal Forces’ had been rejected by the military.
Do you know why Christian Soldiers don't hold on standing up?
People might think their Dancing With Themselves.
John W @ 15:
I think that depends on perspective, LOL. He turned everything he touched into gold for shareholders of halliburton and military privateers' merc contracts other special interests... and in so doing destroyed everything we viewed as worthy. He thinks he's a good guy, that's what's fuct UP about the whole mess. this is what happens when you let retarded good-for-nothing sons who sit at home talkin' to God on a 2-way radio becomes president of the U.S.!
found a new email signature for me today -- "religious wars are not just ugly, they are unwinnable. And despite what Operation Straight Up and its supporters in the Pentagon may think is taking place in Iraq, the Rapture is not a viable exit strategy." lmao.
Here thou goest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjeJi07O7uQ
[Deleted. This same post has been deleted previously as off topic and incoherent conspiracy theory. Get a clue]
EZ @ 62:
That sounds more Gnostic with their Persian derived dichotomous eschatology.
63 EZ Says
“Those who have eyes and ears; let them hear.” - Good Books
_________________________________________________________
My books are from the Hustler press.
For a moment there it looked like the headline was Hard On, Christian Soldiers.
bbk @ 32:
The concept isn't bullshit. It is, however, bullshit when coming off the lips of a paid member of the clergy of any religion.
bbk @ 41:
This is the most inane argument ever. It was established on the basis that such alliances were damaging to both parties. Church/State seperation should be a rallying point for people of diverse beliefs, as opposed to a wedge driven between them.
SonOfLiberty @ 69:
Separation of church and state occured relative to,
1) The King/Queen also being the head of the church - which was subsequent to the king/queen being annointed by the pope.
2) Cromwell and the Puritans and their murderous (both regicidal and parliamenticidal ) behavior.
Although here in the US the puritans are seen as innocent and persecuted, lets remember in England the puritans and Cromwell became so hated that after his death, his body was dug up, decapitated and hung publicly in chains. Also remember the murders of women in new england by drowning, burning etc by ... wait for it ... the puritans.
Dont buy the fiction that the puritans were persecuted, anymore than you should buy the fiction from Baldwin that he is doing god's work. He isnt doing god's work anymore than Cromwell or the puritans or the queen are doing gods work.
There was a need for keeping religion out of politics.
Zenrage @ 27:
Like putting out the fire with flamethrowers.
69 anon
Salem witches weren't burned. They were hanged. That was a reform of the traitor king James the VI of Scotland after he became James I of Great Britain. However, hanging wasn't swift but generally a long drawn out death by choking. That's why it was considered a further "reform" in France when Dr. Joseph-Ignace Guillotin invented his machine. You had messier results, but supposedly a more humane death.
That's probably when they invented the poncho.
If it were a true freedom package it would include an honorable discharge and a plane ticket.
ysbaddaden @ 72:
Witches dont exist. Women were killed.
anon @ 74:
Men too. Whether Witches exist or not is beside the point, that was the charge that they were executed for.
anon @ 70:
Meanwhile, the framers of the Constitution were by and large secular, if not outright non-believers. At most they preferred Deism over the religious flavors of their day. And they set up a secular humanist government. That type of government by definition poses no threat to religion. Only a religious government can pose a threat to religion. The irony of the grade-school mantra that most Americans espouse about the separation of church and state never ceases to amaze me.
ysbaddaden @ 75:
Let's not forget that while the North was burning witches, churches in the South were quoting Scripture to defend slavery. It's arguable that if the southern religious establishment stayed out of politics, the bottom would have fallen out from the separatists and there would have never been a Civil War. It's also arguable that if Lincoln wasn't an atheist, no religious president would ever have the courage to abolish slavery in the first place. Just as no religious politician is willing to fight for gay marriage or the right to choose today, at most if they're liberals they'd just want to sweep it under the rug for real men to deal with later.
"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
- Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).
SonOfLiberty @ 3:
This one was from Chuck, who comments here, and it's my favourite of all time: "they don't hate you (us) because of your (our) freedoms, they hate you (us) because you're (we're) assholes.
This is a Crusade, and also an oil grab. It has not now, or has it ever been, about "democracy". Now they're even saying that was too lofty a goal. Any gov't is acceptable (as long as the USA pulls the strings). The "democracy goal" only came after realizing they were already stuck in a quagmire, not before. Giving out "Christian packages" only confirms the Crusade model.
ysbaddaden @ 75:
The point is, dont validate their madness. They not only made insane accusations they committed heinous acts.
They murdered people. These are the groups that claim intolerance. They were vile killers. The american perspective on religious intolerance has a decidedly screwy twist. They fled England because of persecution. Nonsense. They were killers there as well, and fled England to escape justice.
Unless and until the US comes to terms with this and comes to understand Cromwell etc, this wont stop. Why is Robertson and the other fanatics tolerated? They are the legacy of this lie.
I believe the founders understood this. I believe the founders understood the threat of fanatics like Cromwell.
Even using the word witch lends credence to these monsters.
bbk @ 76:
Interesting, isnt it? From the US perspective, the founders were secular humanists. From other perspectives, they could be called rational and spiritual.
Extremism at work. Reminds me of the 'liberal media'. Which of course it is - in a sense. If you are so far to the extreme right that there is nothing to your right, you can only look left. All that you see will be to your left. This happens because people use their own navels as the definitions of 'center'. To do otherwise, would require a subjective understanding of the larger group. I suspect these peoples sense of awareness ends at their own skin.
Funny,
I am looking at my reporting intructions for my second tour, and under "General Order #1" it specifically prohibits ...and I quote., "Proselytizing of any faith or religion"
Classic case of "Do as I say, not as I do perhaps?"
Van @ 82:
Bring some soccer balls and candy for the kiddies. That worked pretty well for us in Ramadi.
Van @ 82:
The only thing we really couldn't give away if we tried and ended up throwing in dumpster were 200+ copies of The Purpose Driven Life that some mega church from the suburbs sent us.
anon @ 81:
Interesting, isnt it? From the US perspective, the founders were secular humanists. From other perspectives, they could be called rational and spiritual.
Extremism at work. Reminds me of the 'liberal media'. Which of course it is - in a sense. If you are so far to the extreme right that there is nothing to your right, you can only look left. All that you see will be to your left. This happens because people use their own navels as the definitions of 'center'. To do otherwise, would require a subjective understanding of the larger group. I suspect these peoples sense of awareness ends at their own skin.
I don't know... I always saw humanism to be a self ascribed label. Represents rationality and an almost spiritual goodness towards mankind. It's only Christians that will spit venom at the mere mention of it.
This is why we must have a separation of church and state.
I do not want someone's religious beliefs dictating my life.
Especially our soldiers. They do not need the fanatic beliefs of others to get in their way of thought during war operations.
Did anyone check this game for subliminal messages?
If an Atheist performs a good deed. And it is to a Christian. Should the Atheist be stoned to death?
And does God take credit for the good deed?
bbk @ 85:
I don't know... I always saw humanism to be a self ascribed label. Represents rationality and an almost spiritual goodness towards mankind. It's only Christians that will spit venom at the mere mention of it.
The phrase for that is Axis Mundi. Every community, village & group of people think they're the center of the earth. Yggdrasil besides being a sacred tree to the viking was also their Axis Mundi.
Interesting you used the term navel, as in navel-gazing. That's a major chakra site, and for mystics they believe can help the be partially grounded, while their minds rise to new heights.
Me, I'm scared of heights.
Robt @ 87:
If the Road to Hell is filled with good intentions, does that mean the Road to Heaven is filled with bad?
An interesting factor of the Salem years, beside my earlier ignored point that they weren't burnt, is in the resolution. The years for the hunt was from roughly 1692 to 1693. Puritan authorities were uncomfortable with it, they saw orderliness as godliness, and one thing the persecution wasn't was orderly. They also disliked confession in spirit, where the accusers would fall into swoons complaining of pin pricks, biting, pinching, and seeing invisible demons. The Puritan authorities, who also believe in "witches," probably saw these displays as something out of Lourdes and other Roman Catholic convents. They also saw themselves as enlightened and reasonable.
After a year or so after the last persecution, the Salem authorities issued a formal apology to the families of the victims, and attempted to make restitution. This was the last successful persecution for the crime of "witchcraft" in America, although there was a later attempt that fizzled in the 18th century in Virginia. Meanwhile in Scotland they had their last "witch" burning as late as the 1730's, and the "merciful" beheading of an elderly Sister Maria Renata in Germany before her corpse was ignited in Germany. Spanish missions were burning South American Indians alive for refusing to convert as late as the early 19th century.
So oddly enough while some Puritans were guilty of mass murder, others led the way to stopping it earlier than the Europeans.
The funny thing is the classic European case of "witchcraft" was the belief in covert groups of people poisoning Christians wells. It seems highly similar to the belief of many today who fear covert terrorist cells with biological weapons.
ysbaddaden @ 90:
That's sort of apologetic don't you think? The fact is that it happened. Religion will always be out of control, no matter what the good intentions of a few adherents are. You're giving up rational thought so that means you're liable to commit an atrocity at any given time. The only difference between a good Christian and a bad Christian is that the good one hasn't murdered anyone yet.l
ysbaddaden @ 90:
So what is the point that they weren't burnt? They were humane witch-killings?
That one can undermine their position if they cite historical "facts."
ysbaddaden @ 93:
You're right... but Giles Corey was executed by being pressed to death, the only such execution in US History. Any way you look at it the Salem witch hunt was barbaric.
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