'We should start over'
By Steve Benen Thursday Aug 30, 2007 7:12amAs if we needed even more bad news from Iraq, an independent examination of the Iraqi police shows a force that is so far gone, it might need to be scrapped altogether.
An independent commission established by Congress to assess Iraq’s security forces will recommend remaking the 26,000-member national police force to purge it of corrupt officers and Shiite militants suspected of complicity in sectarian killings, administration and military officials said Thursday.
The commission, headed by Gen. James L. Jones, the former top United States commander in Europe, concludes that the rampant sectarianism that has existed since the formation of the police force requires that its current units “be scrapped” and reshaped into a smaller, more elite organization, according to one senior official familiar with the findings. The recommendation is that “we should start over,” the official said.
This is a mess of the highest order. The Iraqi police force, which presumably is responsible for helping keep local communities safe and orderly, is reportedly corrupt to its core and overrun by Shiite militias. We could disband the police force, but when we disbanded the Iraqi Armey in 2003, it generated a backlash that helped create the insurgency. The prospect of putting 26,000 well-armed, angry young men out of work, at our request, is, shall we say, unappealing. For that matter, Iraq would be left with no police force for a few years while we tried to build a new one from scratch.
We could also try to retrain the police, and remove sectarianism from the ranks, but we’ve tried that before and it hasn’t worked.
As Kevin Drum put it, "This is becoming a comedy of the absurd."
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I have complaine a long-long time ago that all we are doing is training Iraqis to kill each other.
There seem to be only 2 solutions. Break up Iraq or install another Saddam.
And lets not forget that the same internal issues that produced the current corrupt police force will be in play the next time around.
Corruption in a police force? NO! Say it ain't so! LOL! What a shocking development.
Things are so bad, we're down to fantasizing about do-overs now???
Good grief.
David Petraeus, the top US commander in Iraq, said the build-up of American forces in Baghdad since late January had produced positive outcomes. These included the killing or capture of al-Qa'ida fighters, causing the terrorist group to lose influence with local Sunnis.
The strategic gains against insurgents would lead to a changed and possibly longer-term role for Australian troops, shifting from security operations to a focus on training Iraqi soldiers and police.
General Petraeus told The Australian during a face-to-face interview at his Baghdad headquarters there had been a 75 per cent reduction in religious and ethnic killings since last year, a doubling in the seizure of insurgents' weapons caches between January and August, a rise in the number of al-Qa'ida "kills and captures" and a fall in the number of coalition deaths from roadside bombings.
"We say we have achieved progress, and we are obviously going to do everything we can to build on that progress and we believe al-Qa'ida is off balance at the very least," he said.
General Petraeus's overview comes a fortnight before he is due to present a crucial report on military progress in Iraq to the US Congress and President George W. Bush.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22337285-31477,00.html
Bush hearts mulligans.
Having an American firm build a police academy that leaks shit from the ceiling probably didn't help much, either.
I don't see comedy...when I see Iraq....
I see Greed, No Accountability, the world under privatization, what it will look like when Corporations rule the world (they're getting closer to that goal)....
I see stupidity of the highest order when con-servatives convince themselves we went in to overthrow a dictator who could blow us up...instead of the obvious (and recently revealed by Bush) reason of Oil (Hussein was threatening to make OPEC trade in Euros instead of Dollars -- which would have really pissed off Big Oil and their Saudi Arabian sugar daddies....who have all their wealth invested in it...ohh China too owns our debt)...and then they fell for the other 38,000 reasons we went including my all time personal favorite ("because he gassed the Kurds"....yes he did that in 1988...when GHWBush was CIC and him & secretary of Defense Dick Cheney understood that going into Baghdad EVEN WITH AN INTERNATIONAL COALITION would have been suicide)...who will fill in the vacuum, the void of keeping Sunni & Shia and their millenium old feud contained....ah...but in 2001....the epithany of the 'private corporations running things with their overly paid mercenary armies (Blackwater, etc)...will 'keep the chaos...for corporate plundering....err...peace for a 'free Iraq'....
I see hypocrisy of the highest order...when right wingnuts shout for war & death, yet don't have the balls, courage, honor to put their a$$ where their mouth is....and instead let the yellow magnet made in China do the walking for them...
WE SHOULD GET THE HELL OUT!!!
So, basically, there is no real solution and we can't improve the situation no matter how hard we try or how much money we throw at it?
Thanks, Bush. Your war sucks. Thanks for totally fucking up America's reputation with our allies for a generation.
i can't believe people still buy the incompetent excuse. this travesty has been by design from the beginning and will continue to go on until people wise up. i think we're going to be there awhile.
There is no solution in Iraq.This is payback time for the Shiites...and nothing will stop them.The only idea that MIGHT work is breaking the country into thirds...but even then the will be going at it for decades to come.Boosh had no clue,has no clue and never will really understand what he has done.Nothing can fix Iraq now.
Since this is a do-over, should we put paul bremmer in charge again and send $8Billion in cash on pallets for distribution to contractors?
Didn't something similar to this happen before and they had to weed out a lot of the police?
What's that saying about doing something the same way over and over and expecting different results.....
There has never been a plan in place that had the best interests of the Iraqi people taken into account.
From the first time that an expert, knowledgeable in the politics, sociology and economics of that region, was pushed aside for a partisan, the Bush regime forfeited any claim to altruism.
While the neocon 20somethings dove into Saddam's pools, the Iraqi people watched their police forces dissolved and their infrastructure destroyed.
We trained and armed the forces that attack them. And now we want to do the same thing again.
We cannot force democracy down the throats of any other nation.
We cannot impose our will without losing our soul.
michael @ 11:
They may be generally incompetent, but their mission never required competence. Their mission only required the politicization of whatever parts of the government they could politicize, the destruction of any part of government which serves the common good and the conversion of the government financial structure into a money trough for the wealthiest people and to cronies.
They have been quite successful.
pissed off patricia @ 14:
The saying is "The Republicans are in charge."
Get the hell out. It's Past Time. Never should have gone in there in the first place. Saddam managed to keep the country together by force, albeit brutal at times, but apparently necessary, at least from his point of view considering the factional hatred that has brewed there for centuries ...while WE can't do ANYTHING with it. Sooner or later they will have a bloody civil war anyway, regardless of what we do, and sooner or later somebody will come out on top, certainly some fanatic religious group...the only real guarantee is that no matter who wins they will hate America's guts for this for centuries.
Thanks George Bush. Thanks Dick Cheney. Your greed and stupidity caused this. Maybe as a parting gesture we should ship Bush and Cheney over there and leave them standing naked in Baghdad as we go.
sorry, I forgot the OIL, the realest and biggest reason we invaded Iraq. Amazing how Ken Lay can influence foreign policy.
What to do?
One of two things: break up Iraq and deal with the consequences
(Iran turning the south into a puppet state, Turkey invading the Kurds, and the Sunnis in the middle wreaking havoc, and ALL of them hunting down Al Qaeda to reduce the noise level)
or withdraw and let the civil war takes its course, where it becomes an unwanted proxy war between the Saudis and the Iranians. And the Turks thump the Kurds. Just because the Turks are assholes that way.
That's about it. Staying there is not an option. So, take your choice: Chaos or Ruin.
Frankly, the smartest course would be whatever option keeps the Iraqi oil in the ground as long as possible. Burghan (in Kuwait) peaked in 05. Cantarell (Mexico) is collapsing, as is the North Sea production. The USA peaked in 1971. The UK is now a net importer. So, it is all bad news. Selling the oil in Iraq NOW would be selling it to be pissed away in some suburbanite retard's SUV. The price needs to triple and the SUVs need to go away, and alternative fuels need to be developed. THEN the oil in Iraq will be worth many many times more as petroleum can be used for materials - much more valuable to society. but I fear that is not likely to happen - these dopes want to drill it out as fast as possible so vile pits of waste like Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Los Angeles can continue their energy wasteful existences. They should be abandoned and stripped for their materials. Oh. well.
"David Petraeus, the top US commander in Iraq, said the build-up of American forces in Baghdad since late January had produced positive outcomes. These included the killing or capture of al-Qa’ida fighters, causing the terrorist group to lose influence with local Sunnis. "
David Petraeus is full of shit. He is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the White House, who actually are writing his "report" for him. Other generals, especially anyone who dissented, were sacked (retired) until Bush found somebody who would be his trained parrot.
If you learn one thing from all this, you learn that this "administration" is incapable of telling the truth about ANYTHING, or accepting any blame or responsibility for the nightmare they have created. It was all Clinton's fault anyway.
All of this that General Jones has proposed has been done before. I bet the British ran into this same problem with their British trained Indian and Iraqi forces when they occupied those areas long ago. These ideas on how to improve the Iraqi Police forces are no different now then they were back then and will lead to more failure and bloodshed.
It's not just Bush. Most Republican's have the mistaken belief that given the chance, everyone else in the world wants to be like us. Bush's vision for Iraq was to make it into a little America. His notion is, or was, that all people need to do is vote and you get instant America. They have absolutely no concept of cultural differences. They will keep making the same mistakes over and over until they learn that most of the people in the world just want to be themselves. They don't want to be us
Carmikl @ 23:
Agreed. Bush and the rest of the Republicans have the same "visions" for Iraq that all past colonial occupiers have had.
Carmikl @ 23:
Actually, it's more like thaey believe that the rest of the world can be RE-MADE to be like us, through intimidation, coercion or force, whichever is required. There is also the 'bring on the rapture' contingent.
Yeah but were making progress! GO SURGE!
*puke*
That pretty much says the least 6 years was a complete waste
We're not allowed to talk about this right now. According to our corporate overlords the entire planet is required to be in a state of mourning today for a rich white woman who died 10 years ago. Stop your nonsense discussing stories about icky Eye-Rack. This is your first and only warning!
Mourn damn you, mourn! And then go to the mall!
"but...but...but...good things are being done in Iraq!! whyyyyyyyy doesn't the bad librul media report that"
Iraq is a success. the Bush Regime has accomplished all of their goals.
It is our expectations that have gone unfulfilled.
Mr. Wide Stance is expected to resign today...
Start over! This isn't a fucking video game. Stupid chimp.
it's their country, if they have a screwed up police force, education system, public utility works, then it's up to them to fix it. why do we have to always be big brother, of course, if it is in our interest to do so, then the big brother stature comes into play. yes, we are responsible for the devastation for iraq today, but rather than try to "fix" it before we leave, we need to just leave and the iraqi people will do the fixing. it's to be understood that they will go through turmoil before the country adjusts as the republicans are fond of ominously warning us, but we do no good by being there. this act has gotten old. even one-toothed wonder is beginning to see the light. who will be GW's last stronghold, the last of the koolaid drinkers, the military or the trailer park dwellers.
Carmikl @ 23:
Spot on, Carmikl. Sprinkle a little Magic Democracy Dust and, presto!
But we've also been overlooking all the blathering about God as the Author of Liberty, the Source of Freedom, etc. - is a direct affront to a Muslim population. Sounds good, flies well with the Christian crowd, but is actually an insult and a put-down.
Hooray! More training contracts!
-The Military Industrial Complex
Or -- we could get the hell OUT and stop butting in THEIR business. Haven't WE screwed up that poor country enough? Even with sectarian violence, they couldn't do to their OWN COUNTRY any worse than WE have.
Carmikl @ 23:
how can iraq gain democracy and be another america? they have only purple fingers and every body knows you need diebold voteing machines to get a free and fair election!
Bud @ 27:
people can mourn diana's death and care about iraq.
An Insane Nation-
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. -Albert Einstein
Letting bushco manage the Iraqi occupation.
Nuff said.
Carmikl @ 23:
Don't forget that this was never about "spreading democracy." We were told it was about a "grave and gathering threat," "imminent danger," and "mushroom clouds." When that didn't pan out, it had to be about "spreading freedom and democracy." Maybe when that failure is reported widely enough, they will finally admit it was about "Manifest Destiny." Halliburton wanted those brown people off their oil, and I'm afraid we're all - collectively - to blame for allowing it to happen.
It's Miller Time.
[...] House ‘We should start over’ » This Summary is from an article posted at Crooks and Liars on Friday, August 31, 2007 This [...]
Iran.
Iran so far away.
Iran.
I couldn't get away.
Couldn't get away.
A secular dictatorship isn't looking too bad right now, eh conscum?
the deferment gang thinks war is like an XBox 360 game they can press reset on. Reality impairment on the march
This is about the delusional thinking that leads one to believe you can topple a Sunni dictator in a Shiite-majority country and get something other than a Shiite-majority government looking for revenge for all those years they suffered under Saddam.
This is why the Saddam and al-Qaeda BFF idiocy doesn't fly - it's two different sects, with al-Qaeda's Wahabist views being radically different from the Sunni. Hardly the place I'd go looking for recruits/support/safe haven.
Mission Accomplished
Do-over!
We should pull our troops out. I don't care how many Iraqi's will die because of it. They don't like us anyway.
Iraq has been and always will be a total waste of U.S. taxpayer dollars.
Remember, it would be CATASTROPHIC if we left!
Catatrophic? Just because a lying coke-snorting drunk tells you that BS, does anyone think its true?
We were told to expect the Vietnamese to attack us also when we left. Still waiting for that attack...
‘We should start over’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCcb3zRl8U
How much money sunk down THAT shithole?
Imagine if we had spent that money on our own local police forces or state police.
Top of the line autos, technology, weapons.
Naahh...let's piss away more good money, chimpboy.
Liberal AND Proud @ 50:
At least invading armies can't safely cross our bridges!
history does repeat itself. the "creation" of democracy has never been. it takes people willing to make it.
why are we so gullible as to think that we can do, this time, what we have tried dozens of times before, with no success.
a joke? naaa. a way to spend money on your friends while telling those you rob you are doing their work?
It does prove your government is completely corrupt at least.
Liberal AND Proud @ 50:
Imagine if we'd had an administration that was actually interested in addressing the problems highlighted on 9-11, rather than just advancing their lunatic ideology? Bush could've had this country on clean energy by now-- could've had half the world following suit. The economy would be booming, with new industries and new jobs...
Instead, he chose to service the super wealthy and his own ego. Such a damned waste.
Discussing "accountability" for education results in New Orleans Tuesday President Bush reiterated one of his favorite sound bites, "It's what I call challenging the soft bigotry of low expectations." Alas, not when it comes to the President himself and certainly not when the subject is the progress in Iraq.
For the details on why the White House wants the GAO to grade Bush's Iraq surge on a curve, see:
"White House: Bush Deserves 'Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations' on Iraq."
"This is a great opportunity for our country to get it right this time. We have a country just waiting for us to work our democratic magic upon. Iran will become a rich and flowering beacon of hope and freedom in the middle east, and set an example for Iraq and Afghanistan to follow. But the American people must first endeavor to persevere."
George Bush
September 11th, 2007
Parts of his speech were leaked, along with some urine.
Let's pull every single one of our soldiers out now.
For reparations we'll just continue to spend the $1 Billion/week we already do (how much of that even leaves the U.S.?). We'll drop some from airplanes for civilians, award reconstruction contracts to Iraqi companies, give some to the government, set large rewards for the capture of terrorists, pay the cops a wage so good they'd be crazy to not value their job, just go nuts.
It sounds crazy, but at this point, it makes more sense than anything else these idiots have come up with.
Curtilingus @ 56:
- Karl Rove
Isaac @ 58:
Let the Iraqis who want to come over here. Absorb the entire population if necessary. Large public trials exposing the the western banking cabal and their jackals.
Was lil' boosh one of those wussy kids who always insisted on a do over?
ysbaddaden @ 61:
No- he's too lazy to try a second time. He just sulked, took his ball home, and blew up a frog.
Isaac @ 58:
Let them sell their own oil and keep the profits, and we won't need to borrow money to give to them.
The complicity of the media continues to astound.
This continuance of Iraq-cluster-f***ola is only for ONE
thing...
Bush's ego. His demented vision of his "place in history" and
the fact Republics up for re-election haven't quite figured out HOW to get off the train, even though it's 99/100% in the ditch already?
All they have to keep them from being swept from office is "The terrorist are coming" and "Gay Marriage will be mandatory " to terrorize the base.
Its too late. Train them up as best we can and scale ourselves back. There are no do-overs left.
How many mulligans have we used this game?
I hope General Jones has socked away a little something for his retirement. Given the Bush regime's "Kill The Messenger" policy, I have a feeling he's going to be needing it, real soon.
Weaseldog @ 63:
You sound like that evil, democratically elected dictator. I think his name's Hugo or something.
Isaac @ 68:
Ooops, sometimes I forget that it is only an accident of geology that put Halliburton's oil under Iraq.
Are we going the way of the USSR?
Remember
Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either [aristocracy or monarchy]. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide.
John Adams
And is Bush the one to murder it?
Being surprised that there is corruption in a police for is like being surprised that there is corruption in the military. We should not be surprised.
Hey! Is that Petersburg in the rear view mirror?
So are we going to fire all the police officers, then hire them back?
I don't quite see where replacement officers would come from, if not from the pool of candidates we already decided once, were qualified.
Do we hire the Iraqis who wanted to be police officers in the middle of a civil war, but were unqualified to be police officers?
Kevin Drum; Not Getting It On Iraq
You know, I used to respect Kevin Drum a lot. His blog, Political Animal, was the first political blog I had ever come across and to be honest, was probably a big reason why I started blogging myself. I don’t read him quite as much as I used to...
It's becoming a comedy of the absurd all right, only problem there's no damn thing funny about it... Must be the absurd part.
Why isn't anyone talking about a UN peacekeeping force? Seems to me they'd be perfect for helping keep things under control and re-train a police force.
Craig @ 75:
Would you volunteer yourself or anyone else to go clean up Bush's mess?
Bring back Bernie Kerik. HE"LL know what to do. Besides, it'll serve to take his mind off his real problems.
Of course, the idea of "starting over" demands the question:
Start over with what?
Where exactly are the new recruits for the new and free-from-sectarianism police force going to come from?
unfortunately for us, the mulligan is going to be Iran
How can you fight a war when unable to distinguish friend from foe? In Iraq it appears the distinction is made solely on the basis of who is shooting at you today and not on who shot at you yesterday.
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