FOXNews/GOP Debate: "All we're doing is saving face"
By Nicole Belle Wednesday Sep 05, 2007 11:50am
Wow. An almost authentic debate moment at the FOXNews/GOP debate. Ron Paul tells Mike Huckabee that it isn't "honor" as Huckabee insists keeping us in Iraq, it's a desire to save face.
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Ron Paul's stance on international issues are right on but his domestic policies are crap.
the man doesn't even believe in global warming or public funding of education.
Irak!
mister mix @ 1:
That's because he's really a Libertarian, not a Republican. In fact, he was the Libertarian Party presidential nominee in '92.
I heard this on Thom Hartman this morning.....there's a lot of interesting moments here totally overshadowed by ole man Thompson mozyin' in on the race....YAWN!
I also heard Ron Paul won the FoxNews online poll 2-to-1, can't find the poll anywhere on their site, natch...
I'm going to go out, sniff some flowers, relax for a bit.
Ron Paul Kicks all their asses! and it sounds like there are some repubs in the audience
that have finally seen the light. Paul is the Truth teller in a gaggle of blah blahs!
Here are all the best clips from the debate last night - enjoy:
Ron Paul’s Heated Exchange With Chris Wallace - Iraq
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=bb6bd5c3-94d8-49bf-...
Giuliani Answers Question About His Family
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=7ac4b973-3084-4a03-...
Mike Huckabee & Ron Paul Debate Iraq
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=c2644597-481a-4d12-... (short version, right to the confrontation)
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=dca8ebe4-373c-4c62-... (long version, Huckabee’s full answer and then confrontation)
John McCain Doesn’t Believe The United States Should Torture
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=9b85b34f-4828-40d4-...
Mitt Romney Answers Pointed Question On Iraq, Sons’ “Service”
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=745a8126-e7f7-4981-...
Tom Tancredo – Water Boarding Isn’t Torture
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=750fef4a-6cb5-4a31-...
Ron Paul Would Cut Taxes, Spending – eliminate IRS, CIA etc.
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=8f8e103c-c756-499e-...
Duncan Hunter Feels Larry Craig Should Resign Immediately
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=adbb325f-2055-4124-...
All Candidates Discuss Iran Hypothetical
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=a25e21f6-ad7d-432a-...
All Candidates Discuss Fred Thompson’s Absence
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=3515b07d-207d-42ed-...
Two of the most buzz-worthy videos were not part of the debate – instead, they were political ads that are sure to be highly offensive:
Freedomswatch.org Iraq Ad
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=d71ed277-a8f7-49cf-...
Freedomswatch.org Iraq Ad #2
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=3bf073fc-93bd-46d2-...
Honor? That's a concept used by pussies who have never stared down the barrel of a gun to defend their idiotic beliefs/actions.
Although Paul's domestic policies are whack, at least he said what needed to be said about Iraq. I haven't heard this badly-needed rhetoric from any of the Democratic candidates outside of Kucinich and Gravel. Edwards to a degree, but not in such gut-level terms.
And I can't believe we're going to have a redo of that whole Vietnam saving face bullshit. They have learned NOTHING.
The fanatics in the audience are the faces of the GOP. They do not care how many Americans and Iraqis are killed, just so long as the U.S. manages to somehow "win" in Iraq. The United States, just as it did in Vietnam, will once again, justifiably, go down in defeat.
give 'em hell, Paul!!!!
[deleted - that's enough blog pimping for today.]
Does Huckabee have an earpiece from GOP headquarters?
Frank James of the Baltimore Sun called Ron Paul an isolationist!!! Hahahaha!!! The MsM can't wait to do whatever they can to smear Paul, Gravel and Kucinich!! Fuck the MsM!!!
How come no republicans seem to be able to correctly pronounce Iran (ear-ran, not eye-ran) or Iraq (ear-raq, not eye-rak) and nuclear nu-lear, not nucular. And all of these guys hold degrees......what the f*ck?
Wow, we have to continue the war because we owe it to the soldiers? Huckabee sounds a lot like Bush with his folksy oversimplistic stories justifying the deaths of thousands of people. "My mother used to say, you break it, you buy it." Are we that stupid? What's really terrifying is hearing so many people cheer when he says they the citizens should be sacrificing their lives for the mistakes of the neo-cons because we're "one country."
mee-yowwww
Political discourse like this hasn't happened in a while. Impassioned, genuine, stating things directly without whitewashing or idealistic simplification.
The other candidates are not ready to campaign on this level and people like Paul or Kucinich could win it not because they are underdogs, but because they are the only two that aren't acting.
Christian extremist Huckabee says we are one nation under God who should blindly follow the GOP and their messiah George Bush over the cliff. I wonder how many of Huckabee's family members he has on the front lines in Iraq? Easy for a cowardly Republican to stand "strong" on the backs of somebody else's children over a failed policy.
Either we get out of Iraq or the Republicans Party gets dragged to the bottom of the lake....though I want out or Iraq first and foremost, one could almost look at it as a win/win either way.
PaulD @ 11:
Who is giggling like a drunken coed off camera in this clip?
gwen @ 16:
yeah, NOW we're all one...before it was just them and their ideals and the rest of us were traitors.
If you break it, maybe you should leave the store before you break something else.
PaulD @ 12:
Chimpy's gonna bomb Iran to save face. Thanx Dick.
#18 "Political discourse like this hasn’t happened in a while. Impassioned, genuine, stating things directly without whitewashing or idealistic simplification."
On top of that it's being broadcast on FOX. The temperature must have dropped below 32 in hell.
Former guerrillas sitting the Prez down as an equal across the table at Al Asad.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/03/world/03prexy5-600.jpg
As President I don't believe Ron could do much damage domestically but he WILL BRING THE TROOPS HOME!
End the immoral insanity! Everything else can wait.
My right to an abortion is second in my mind to ending the war.
Busholini is the anti-Midas -- everything he touches turns to SHIT.
Peoples Front of Judea @ 20:
That would be Rudy McRomney. Actually, I've read that it was not only Rudy and Mitt, but Brit Hume and Chris Wallace as well who were heard giggling.
mister mix @ 1:
Ron Paul doesn't believe in FEDERAL funding of public education.
That doesn't mean that he wants to do away with public schools. It just means he doesn't want the FEDERAL government involved.
As far as global warming is concerned, I honestly don't know what his position on this is. He has made statements before that seemed to dismiss global warming, but the context of these statements were in a speech about government control through fear.
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr062906.htm
Tummytuckabee sucks
ron paul's domestic policies certainly leve one wanting, but his international agenda is lightyears ahead of the rest of the gop pack. pity the gop couldn't have more like him.
it's gratifying to see a gop talking point so publicly refuted by one of their own.
kudos to mr. paul on that point.
You won't like 100% of any candidate so the important thing to watch for is whether Paul has a sense of compromise. It's obvious Bush doesn't. And Guiliani, Huckabee, Romney , Clinton, etc. seem to be patterning their themes after conservative authoritarianism, where authority is always right and should be obeyed.
Sachem @ 25:
Let's bomb Iran http://youtube.com/watch?v=UWGa9ViY7G8&mode=related&search=
Huck tosses around the word honor knowing that most people latch on to the term like gnats to rotting flesh... Hack hasn't aclue what it really means and those cheering him are the 9-11-fear-terror-9-11-quake-rattle-9-11-fearmongering fools!
i wonder how long it will take for repube talking heads to call that audience unpatriotic and defeatist. how did so many cheering the end of the war people get in to this debate. or maybe it was just an applause track to make it seem like real americans were in attendence. one thing is for sure, if that many repubes are cheering the ending of the iaq war, all but one on that stage last night are in for the loss of their polical carriers. nice to see repbe talking points get bitch slapped by one of their own.
you can't "win" a crime, but if you're lucky you can get away with it.
I have seen the enemy and they are the Republican candidates!
This was good to see.
I realize many of you on here are avid Democrat supporters, but I urge you all to look into Ron Paul and his stance on issues. His domestic policies are in line with what the Constitution called for when it was written, and that is local control and regulation.
Remember what the 10th Amendment says: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people."
That's all Ron Paul is going for, local control, not federal.
Who the Hell even bothered to watched the Rethug debate when they still spew their lies and distortions??
Watch the youtube clip of Paul and notice all the childish snickering in the FOX panel whenever he is asked as question. It is intentionally done to make him look foolish although the audience seems to have a different opinion.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8BB3NrSpRGE
That's right. Sink or swim, let's bring it down to the county level and keep it local.
Curtilingus @ 23:
Nah, the bull should stay in the china shop until he's glued everything back together.
The fact that "moderator" Chris Wallace was the one to get in the zinger of the night ("..we should take our marching orders from Al Qaida?") is revealing. What set him off was Ron Paul simply stating that we were attacked because of our presence on the Arabian Peninsula. The truth really scares him and that's scary for all of us.
Duffy @ 41:
So he'll be all prepared if 1794 rolls around again.
How do we vote for Ron Paul as winner of this debate. There must be an online poll somewhere we could put our efforts into.
It would be worth our time.
*ScoobyDoo-style*
WHUU???
clearly Ron Paul is a smart, passionate man. and clearly (to me) he is the only GOP candidate running for office that isn't a more eloquent GW bush clone. his viewpoints on our military empire are spot on, from what i have read/heard/seen. and his views on iraq are correct as well, imho.
yet, when it comes to his domestic libertarian stance i disagree--intensely. my personal opinion is that the failure of government isn't due to actual existence of govt, but the failures stem from too much corporate involvement and corporate power (thanks a lot santa clara county v. southern pacific railroad, thanks a fuck lot).
our government has been failing us BECAUSE of corporations and because politicians are dependent on their money and influence. take that out of the equation and let govt serve FOR THE PEOPLE, and serve as a true regulator of business and industry. call me nuts (and many have), but the power vacuum created by shrinking the government will be filled by corporate interests--and, that, to me, is scary as shit. corporations, especially when they control more and more, are anti-democratic and not interested in the public good. they are only interested in market share, happy investors and ever increasing profits. this is not what the country needs, or, i should say, we have dealt with it long enough and to create a libertarian system that provides more opportunities for the corporatocracy to run roughshod over our existence is scary, and dangerous.
adam smith saw the visible hand of the state as being crucial is in keeping the invisible hand of the market in check. NOT because he desired the end of the market economy, obviously, but because he thought that this would actually help the market.
my 3 cents.
PaulD @ 13:
I called the phone number....pretended to agree with them...then used thier dime to tell my reps to get the U.S. out of Iraq. Later when I'm bored I'll call back and explain to them what pro-life means to me.
Thanks for the previous links.
Paul said that he was not in support of ANY federal programs.
Do you drive on the interstate? Know someone benefitting from social security? Medicare?
Not to mention that there are federal dollars woven in just about everywhere, including "local control".
Be careful what you wish for.
goatsage @ 42:
Paul's worth listening to. Of course he's painted as a fringe weirdo-backwoods hick by the lame stream media but the guy is basically right on the mark regarding the insane neocon driven Foreign Policy.
english teacher @ 51:
If you're going to teach English to anyone, I advise you re-read what I wrote to see that I never said "Democrat Party", but rather "Democrat supporters". Hardly any kind of slur.
Paula @ 50:
Great story.
These ads are so offensive to me...
I'm listening to CSpan-3. Jeff Sessions and others are "Wishin', and hopin', and thinkin', and prayin',..."
They have military personnel telling them that stuff will be getting better, as the situation improves. They like hearing that.
hadenuf @ 52:
Not to mention that most people in their day-to-day lives rarely encounter federal regulation or control. Most law and regulation that directly affects us is already state or local. When was the last time you went to the federal courthouse for anything?
hey, you are asking people to support your candidate. i just thought i would clue you in to the simple fact. rush limbaugh calls people "democrat supporters" or members of the "democrat party". talking like rush won't win paul many votes, it that's what you are trying to do.
Orangutan. @ 47:
There may still be an online poll at FOX, although the results are in I believe. You could also text "R6" to 36288 to see if that works. He actually won the poll with about 33% of the total vote!! Of course, FOX didn't make a big deal out of this...
english teacher @ 57:
Actually, I was asking people here to look into him, not support him. He's not a candidate for everyone, but he does have some good ideas, which are worth looking into.
And I'm ever so sorry for using the same term as someone else! I had no other idea what to call someone who supports a Democrat other than a "Democrat supporter." I guess I just used the same terminology that I would for someone who builds bridges, as I would call them a "bridge builder". Or someone who develops software as a "software developer." I'll try to be more careful next time.
I admire Ron Paul's passion for removing our troops from this quagmire.
Gee, atleast in this, I like Ron Paul.
Mike pull the blinders from your eyes, we are a heavily divided nation and your president and his administration made and kept us this way.
Oh btw Mike, do you know the definition of insanity?
Duffy sez "I’ll try to be more careful next time."
There is a concerted effort on the part of the right wing noise machine to label the Democratic Party as the 'Democrat' Party and they have become disturbingly effective at it. Personally I am very offended by it.
If anyone here seems sensitive about this issue I hope you can understand.
Reason #43 why we have to keep fighting in Iraq:
For the honor of the Republican Party
Curtilingus @ 33:
Dude, thank you very much for this one. I completely agree. Ron Paul has already impressed me with his pragmatism when he said the words, "so those people would be taken care of if they become dependent on government" at Ames. The details need to be specified at some time (what's he willing to compromise on and what's he not. i think federal student loans are an absolute must) but I go on what I've already seen from him and based on that, the guy knows the difference between pragmatic reality and rigid ideology.
Duffy @ 40:
I understand that Ron Paul is for local control, but that just isn't feasible at this point in America. Dismantling the Federal Government's grip over the states would take decades and result in endless hardships, debates, and conflicts. The man seems to be well intentioned, but seems to have no grip on the realities of things. Maybe if he had some bend to him he could make a good candidate. Slowly return local control by eliminating broad unnecessary government controls such as NCLB, but Ron seems like an all or nothing type candidate which is why I could never support him.
Duffy @ 59:
It's 'Democratic.' It's the proper name. The Thugs have turned the name to 'Democrat Party.' You will see some posters and hear people refer to the Republican Party as the 'Republic Party' in response.
And actually, a person who builds bridges is an engineer, as are software developers...
I still call them 'Thugs.'
Paul @ 65:
Actually he has said many times that it would have to be a slow process to get back to they the US used to be. You obviously couldn't just stop all Social Security payments all at once, but rather he's said that each thing that needs to be changed would be phased out. This is also assuming there's cooperation with Congress to accomplish these goals.
more likely you would say "support Democratic candidates", as you would say "support Republican candidates". would you actually say someone was a "Republican supporter"? i doubt it.
yeah, my local c-team wing nut radio host, the diminutive loud mouthed paul gallo on supertalk mississippi, does it constantly. but then again, he is a total asshole.
sassafra @ 32:
yes, i can see how you might be afraid of Paul's domestic policies/ideas.
The CIA has given us such good information and hasn't meddled in foreign countries (or ours), the Dept of Educ has overseen dramatic rises in education standards+scores, the IRS and Fed Reserve are among the most respected govt agencies.
Wait a minute...
That's what I've been saying. It's been a reprise of peace with honor.
That and rationalizing a war started for non-existant WMD's.
the crowd seemed to be divided down the middle based on the applause. the iraq occupation has divided the republican party and it will be their downfall in o8'
I think the giggling came from Gouliani and/or Brit Hulme, makes me feel sick, those patronising establishment whores, i truly hope that Ron Paul gets the nomination, i know it's doubtful but he is by far the best of that bad bunch of big government warmongering corporate shills.
env @ 71:
Do you suppose Code Pink infiltrated this event? Personally I'd like to believe those were actual Republicans applauding Paul.
Hey Mike, here it is for you:
So we keep doing the samething in Eye-rak expecting different results and that's sane? That's honor?
YDMF
John Kerry is kicking butt on CSpan3. He is making sense. He made the argument that putting more troops in a small region will make a difference in a small region, but that wasn't the point of the surge. He argues that the surge was intended to give the Iraqi government breathing room to meet their goals. Yet, they have only met one out of eight goals.
He is now addressing the moving of the goal posts and the White House insistence that we keep waiting, expecting things to be different, when anyone can see from past history that things aren't changing.
english teacher @ 68:
Actually, I would say that some who supports a Republican candidate is a "Republican supporter"
@ Goatsage - No, I can not understand it. The term has always been "Democrat". You have always has Democrats and Republicans. It's the way the words work. You would never say "Democratics and Republicans" would you? The singular form of Democrats is Democrat, sorry, but it's just that way. I've been a life long Democrat and this kind of lunacy over the words that Republicans use is driving me out of the party.
Wow, a moment of truth slips into the BS!
It's also fascinating to see Huckabee try his hack line. Apparently, he thinks patriotism means unquestioningly supporting every stupid thing someone in authority does.
Here Duffy. Check this out
http://mediamatters.org/items/200608160005
GOP strategists christen "Democrat [sic] Party" -- and the media comply
Summary: Several media figures, including news reporters, echoed Republicans by employing the word "Democrat" as an adjective to refer to things or people of, or relating to, the Democratic Party.
In recent months, media figures, including news reporters at CNN, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, the Chicago Tribune, and the Associated Press echoed Republicans by employing the word "Democrat" as an adjective to describe things or people of, or relating to, the Democratic Party -- including referring to the "Democrat" Party itself, even though that is not the party's name. The ungrammatical conversion of the noun "Democrat" to an adjective was the brainchild of Republican partisans, presumably an attempt to deny the opposing party the claim to being "democratic" -- or in the words of New Yorker magazine senior editor Hendrik Hertzberg, "to deny the enemy the positive connotations of its chosen appellation." In the early 1990s, apparently due largely to the urging of then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA) and Republican pollster Frank Luntz, the use of the word "Democrat" as an adjective became near-universal among Republicans.
Duffy sez- "I’ve been a life long Democrat and this kind of lunacy over the words that Republicans use is driving me out of the party."
Well, if this is the kind of thing that would drive you out of the party I'd be happy to give you a lift.
by that logic, someone who supports democratic candidates in general would still be a "Democratic supporter". someone who supports republican candidates in general would be a jock strap.
Thanks, Miss Kitty, that's one of the best summaries I've seen.
Ron Paul will free us from this bickering over "Democrat" and "Democratic" and return us to the days of bickering over "Whig" and "Federalist."
The key is sincerity. Once you can fake that, the rest is easy.
Rusty Shackleford @ 82:
Clever
Batocchio @ 81:
You are welcome... I have read a lot about the subtle linguistic games the Thugs play, and I think it's necessary to point them out to everyone. Most people don't realise the power of linguistics, and the importance of being the framer of the argument, the chooser of the terms...not like the Republics, anyway. ;)
Rebel Patriot @ 69:
but one must ask themselves just WHAT the reasoning was behind most of these things...
is it b/c govt, by nature is bad and must be curtailed/reduced/dissolved?
--or--
is it because of corporate involvement negatively affecting govt action?
using your CIA example... most of their nefarious activity has been at the behest of corporate interests (see, United fruit [now chiquita], big oil [as in iran]). and i would argue that the solution is not to do away with these agencies BUT ensure they function at the behest of the people--not industry.
further--sorry for the repeat, as i mentioned this earlier--once you do away with the federal institutions corporations will step in even further. which is not good. examples ABOUND in the problems of deregulation (see, electricity; see mining) and privatization of resources (see, water).
and as far as public education, imho, the problem is NOT with public education in itself, but its due to inadequate funding. we have noooo problem funding anti-missile systems for decades now (to the tune of bbbbillions of dollars) but we balk at ensuring kids don't go to school with rats and black mold.
and i would say it is obvious that the IRS isn't too popular, especially when "average" americans are trying to get their taxes in while corporations get by with tax loopholes and tax subsidies.
so, i ask again, who takes over the federal govt functions once the federal govt has been neutered?
Huckabee is mouth-breather to the max and the media always try to do the "aw shucks he's a swell guy" routine
goatsage @ 79:
Well come pick me up then, because getting upset over the names that people call you is beyond partisan hackery, it's downright childish. Frankly, I'm sick of it. I can't stand most Republicans because they lie, cheat and steal, and I can't stand most DEMOCRATS because they not only think that everyone is an idiot and can't think for themselves, but they are so childish and whiny that I can't talk to them. I'm done with both parties.
Ron Paul feels like the genuine article, and I can understand people signing up to his campaign. >I
With that clip, I would hope that Dr. Paul is make the Rah Rah Rahpublicans rethink this Honor crap.
Most wingnuts only want Huckabee to be moderately successful and not come across as just another preacher/neocon/lying/holier than thou politician but one who is from Arkansas and one that that they hope and pray fervently over, in hopes of adding flames to their hatred of another Arkansan, and they pray that he will rise to the level of a president from Arkansas who was a Rhodes Scholar and who's name escapes me at the moment.
I have to say, if there was any republican that I would be fine with winning in 2008 that would be Ron Paul. Though I, and many of us here, don't agree with his domestic policy, he is coming out as the one true conservative. And I much rather see that then a neo-con.
And even if he doesn't win, he loses to Obama, or Edwards or Hillary, or who ever, at least he'll probably save his party from implosion and return it to its once honourable state.
Katie @ 4:
yeah... very odd... Ron Paul is clearly the one candidate that stands apart from all the others with views that could appeal to a wider constituent base, but he consistently gets marginalized by the MSM... is it because of a stigma with his Libertarian roots?
Miss_kitty @ 85: Yeah, I follow that stuff closely, too, and I've linked other pieces on this particular tactic, but it's always nice to have a good, thorough post to reference when it comes up.
It sounds like you've read Don't Think of an Elephant or related works, but you'd enjoy Talking Right: How Conservatives Turned Liberalism Into a Tax-Raising, Latte-Drinking, Sushi-Eating, Volvo-Driving, New York Times-Reading, Body-Piercing, Hollywood-Loving, Left-Wing Freak Show if you haven't read it already. I'm also a big fan of Orwell and Neil Postman on these issues. ;-)
Duffy @ 88:
I don' think you are an idiot but am still willing to give you a lift, just let me buy you a beer afterwards and show you I'm not whiney and see if I can convince you there are not many other viable parties out there to throw your lot in with. You might be stuck with us "Democrats".
goatsage @ 95:
That's very noble of you.
Duffy @ 76:
perhaps it's time to start referring to republicans as the republics... "democrats and republics" slip off the tongue just as easily... ;-)
Gore-Paul! in 2008!
mister mix @ 1:
and the problem is?...
We have public funded schools and universities right now and guess what? It's not doing a very good job. Hell there's even third world countries that are ahead of us in education. as for global warming well it's a problem but as Ron paul says "let the markets figure it out". If you want to solve global warming - buy "green" products. If thats what you buy thats what the market will supply. See how that works?
Ron Paul deserves serious consideration. This YouTube clip says it all about Fox:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUxQadgSkoA
Enjoy!
What struck me is that Paul spoke sense and addressed the real issues in this short clip while every retort by Huckabee was just a lot of rah-rah rhetoric, chest thumping and flag waving. What is ENCOURAGING was that Paul got just as many cheers as hi slope-browed counterpart.
Elderon @ 99:
letting "markets" figure out global warming is a recipe for disaster.
Elderon @ 99: You're kidding, right? American education is mostly superb when it comes to elementary school, kindergarten, pre-school and higher education, where American colleges and universities, both public and private, are justifiably a draw for smart international students. The breakdown occurs in junior high school and high school. What "third world" countries were you thinking of? The key problems facing high schools tend to be bad management and larger societial issues, not the the teachers themselves nor often the curricula. As for global warming, when a company pollutes the air and water, it affects other people. It's not an arbitrary, consequence-free choice, and corporations aren't exactly conscientious on their own, hence the FDA, EPA, SEC, etc. even if the Bush administration hasn't run them well. But sure, let's pretend that the supposedly "free market" solves all problems.
Weaseldog @ 75:
A dubious honor at best......
Herbert @ 98:
these 2 are polar opposites... kind of like saying paul-kucinich....
Boy is Ron Paul a thorn in their side. Judging from the applause, there seem to be a lot of moderate Republicans in the audience. Wow, I thought none existed.
Samson- @ 105:
actually i retract my "polar" comment, that is too strong, i think.
let's just say that paul and gore would not agree on most issues
I wonder how many of Huckabee’s family members he has on the front lines in Iraq?
Answer:Zero.
He's a Republic, after all.
Dying in Iraq is for the poor, and people of color, in the world of Republic
Christianist like Huckabee.
His people have to concentrate on other things, like waiting for the Rapture and snowflake babies....
I don't Ron Paul's health care views but that's a fight for another day. I believe that, at this point in time, Ron Paul is the right man.
Ron Paul is as electable in a Republican Primary as Kuchinich would be in the Democratic (Didn't want anyone losing their head over linguistics...)Party.
Just aint gonna happen....
Chris from Ohio @ 109:
and the rest of his libertarian platform? health care is but a small piece.
so, i ask, the right man for what?
Samson- @ 86:
State or local governments, the ones that more closely reflect your beliefs and are more responsive to your needs.
Samson- @ 102:
and what will de-funding public education do? Will we become more competitive?
I hope Ron Paul brings some sense back into that political party. They sure need it.
Although I completely disagree with his domestic policy, his foreign policy is what I'd LIKE to hear Democratic candidates saying.
Fanon @ 113:
It'll lead to schools that teach impressionable kiddies that boosh walked on water.
bunch of douchbags!
noitaluspacne @ 112:
so, if you live in an affluent area things will be even better? and in a poor community the people will have even less funding to work with? not that things are any where near equal now, but, i think taking away one of the only aspects of our society that tries to ensure equality (or at least is supposed to) will make things worse.
and, in 2007, how many people live in areas that "more closely reflect your beliefs"? seems to me, in these days, we move out of necessity, out of the need for work. i am not in the financial position to pick up and move to (say) vermont just b/c they more closely reflect my beliefs. i see what you are getting at, i just don't think it is a realistic approach.
and for all progressive/liberal people living in red states? or all the conservative/libertarians living in blue states, what about them? would there be a mass exodus to find the state/community that more closely reflects the beliefs? this sets up, i would think, an even MORE polarized and divisive society.
I don't think there's anything wrong with Paul's domestic policy. He basically just wants us to stand up and take care of ourselves...and if there are needs in the system, the private sector will take care of it just fine. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Huckabee: One nation under Hillary.
We will lose to Hillary honorably!
Is this what passes for the Republican battle cry these days?
At least you might have the opportunity to actually change something with Ron Paul as President. What chance do you suppose you'll have to make changes in the totalitarian empire we are building right now?
Do you really think Hillary or Obama are going to change anything?
I thought it was interesting when Paul mentions the neoconservatives, Huckabee stiffened like a board. I wonder if Paul is well received in the GOP or do they view him as an outsider? Isn't Paul in his heart of hearts really a Libertarian and just used the GOP to get his foot in the door. If the Repukes have any chance at all of 'saving face' he is it. I imagine it would be a bitter pill to swallow for them though. I don't think Paul is a tote the party line kind of guy. He is someone worth a look-see. Pity he has to run as a Repuke.
This is why the two parties desperately try to block any third party candidate from appearing on debates. They can't be trusted to follow the script and things get embarassing for our pre-selected corporate candidates.
Fanon @ 113:
I case you missed IT, Ron Paul is against FEDERALLY funded public education, not all public education.
fromnorthoftheborder @ 118:
There is a limit to how much a person can take care of one's self and family. Ron Paul lives in a fantasy world of people being able to make the grade but in real life, people can not make it when there are insurance fees, credit-card debts, massive injuries and crisis, missing work/payments, con-artists and scammers, problems in the region and the inability to prevent losing money. Ron Paul lives in such a fantasy, I am surprised that he did not embrace this war. I guess some things really are too disagreeable to take to for some G.O.P.-types, but I still do not understand what Ron Paul is thinking when he wants to banish things that people do need.
in all that i have said, i think ron paul is a good man, i just happen to disgree with his ideology on governance and the role of the state.
if i were prez (collective scream) i would ask him to be a part of my foreign policy team.... he would say 'no', but i would still probably ask
noitaluspacne @ 123:
Yeah, I know, I got it. I, however, am NOT against federally funded public education and would not want to support someone who is. In some areas federally de-funding public education would be the same as de-funding public education period.
what's really sad and frightening about this exchange is when huckabee talks about not losing "honor," the audience applauds loudly. who are these people. koolaid drinkers all. it's frightening to me because these bushies still believe in stay the course. probably still believe there were wmd's in iraq and know that sadam was behind 911. are they ever going to wake up or will the country have to go under before they can see what a sham it all was.
mister mix @ 1:
Ron Paul beleives the earth is warming...but what most "global taxation" supporters
forget is that so is the entire solar system
the ice-caps on Mars are even melting!
Central Funding/Control of Education is one of the pillars of the Communist
Manifesto..
Huckabee was getting more applause with his canned bromides than Ron Paul was with reason, passionate statements. These people will never get it.
Paul has a clue on foreign policy, but none whatsoever on life at home in the 21st century. He wants to turn the clock back to the 1800's - before large corporations dominated the economy; before America changed from a nation of farmers to a nation of urban consumers; before The People decided, in their wisdom, that they wanted unions, reasonable regulation of the economy by the government, civil rights and voting rights laws and federal environmental protection.
Paul is a genial dinosaur. He wants to preside over a government whose only legitiimate constitutional role is to protect borders and field armed forces when they are needed.
If you liked the 19th century, if you liked the Gilded Age, no taxes on wealth, States Rights, Plessy vs. Ferguson, "separate but equal" and Jim Crow, Ron Paul's your man.
Hrmm, I kind of like the idea a candidate that is with me on at least one issue.
That is more than I expect.
Criticizing is Healthy @ 124:
???
Sounds like you are mixing up Mitt Romney with Ron Paul.
I'll give Ron Paul this: his supporters are dedicated. They swarm the blogs and online polls en masse once they get the generators running in their Unabomber-style shacks.
Fanon @ 126:
Can you give some examples of where federally de-funding public education would be the same as de-funding public education?
damn, just watched the video with ron paul and chris wallace. wallace is such a tool, how can such an idiot rise so high in the media world. oh, i know, does the term media whore have any meaning. his comment that what you're saying then mr. paul is that we should take our marching orders from al quida. paul answers quickly and succinctly, no we should take our marching orders from the constitution. the idiot giggling in the background is not giggling at this point.
Regardless of the party and regardless of his views in other areas, i give ron paul a hell of a lot of credit for standing up to wallace and any of the other media whores and telling them to their face what's what. we need more dems and liberals of that ilk.
noitaluspacne @ 133:
Part of federally funding of public schools and the policy goals that accomapny them is to reduce variation in per pupil spending. Meaning that a public school that accepts public funding cannot be widely outside the margin (either above or below) the per pupil spending budgets or they are not eligible for funds. To federally de-fund schools could lead to the un-doing of that level playing field. Economically depressed areas that receive lower money from the states based on taxes, housing property etc. would suffer greatly while wealthier areas could have much larger out put per pupil.
fromnorthoftheborder @ 118:
on the surface, that philosophy appears commendable... however, the private sector is not motivated by altruism and profit will always supercede need (as it should if a business wishes to succeed)... a nation is a community and a community succeeds through cooperation and cooperation is not a profit-venture... some things should not ever be subservient to a profit motive such as education, health-care, police and fire services...
it is true that often business is far more efficient than government in providing services and that the role of government should be limited to legislation and oversight... and it is in these areas that the discourse between what should be the government's purview and what should be provided by business breaks down...
to return to the specifics of your comment; the private sector may "take care of it just fine" only if appropriate leadership is provided by government (vis-a-vis, the people)... otherwise, the private sector has failed miserably many times over in demonstrating the initiative necessary to develop efficient systems for "taking care of it" without cutting corners in the name of appeasing shareholders...
in fact, most of the major crises we are facing today across the globe are a direct result of a profit-motive that has been corrupted by rampant greed... due to a failure of government to insulate itself from corporate influence while also failing to respond to the best interests of "we, the people"...
no longer a proud american @ 127:
what's also sad, is that the (general) pro-war position adopted by the rethuglicans is exactly an abdication of "honor"... and none appear to realize this...
noitaluspacne @ 123:
i would ask you, who then would fund the public education?
local communities? states? corporations?
and who ensures that more rural or poor states/locales still get the same quality of education as the more affluent? (disclaimer: I am NOT saying this is happening now, but, to be sure, federally-defundng public education will make what we have now look like utopian-equality).
Yeeha! A fox among the chickens! I'm all for Ron Paul shaking up the other Republican candidates' positions on the war. He can absolutely keep doing that, and let his primary votes tell the other GOP nominees what a sizable part of their electorate wants with respect to the war. The floor responded well, and they all heard it. Maybe some of them will take that home.
My disgust by and disdain for all present at the debate excluded, at least Ron Paul isn't towing the same bullshit at the end of the line.. Don't get me wrong, they're all dysfunctional but at least Paul tells the truth on certain issues..
Samson- @ 138:
Ron Paul on Education.
Duffy @ 53 -
If you’re going to teach English to anyone, I advise you re-read what I wrote to see that I never said “Democrat Party”, but rather “Democrat supporters”. Hardly any kind of slur.
Democrat is a noun. Democratic is an adjective. In yer first example the noun is Party. Democratic is the modifyin' adjective- it describes what the party is. Same thing in yer second example, where the noun is supporters.
Republican is a more diverse word, used as both an adjective and a noun.
It is nice to see the Titans of the Republicanic Debate in action...
noitaluspacne @ 141:
thanks for the link. (and kudos to ron for supporting teacher salaries, they should--in a sane world--make more than athletes. crazy, i know)
question though: how is federally funded education different from the federal govt sending everyone checks for $5000?
to be honest, as far as school curricula is concerned, i am fairly ignorant (never having taught, served on a school board, no kids, etc.), but i wonder what happens to science education when it is left to local communities to decide w/o any other input. could we have whole enclaves/locales that are taught that evolution is a hoax foisted on us by deranged communists? and the global warming is actually a side effect of premarital sex? and then there is the question of sex ed?
noitaluspacne
This didn't really answer the question as to who pays for public education. He simply said if you were rich you could choose to send your child anywhere you wanted and get a $5000 tax break and tax credits for teachers. There is also some really faulty logic in there with the 15:1 teacher student ratio. Where did he get that number? A casual audit of my friends in Chicago who are teachers and/or parents comes up with a number somewhere more like 26:1 which makes all of hte math wrong. I can admire his desire (hey that rhymed!) for smaller government and less governmental oversight (a real republican) I just don't think this all makes much sense.
There are a lot of assumptions made in this plan that people will do the right thing with their school funding dollars. Meanwhile, even with federal funding, school kids in Chicago are using xeroxed text books because there aren't enough to go around.
Oh, plus the not voting to prevent prayer in public school is a big red flag for me. I don't want that door open ever again. It's shut, let it stay shut.
to be honest, as far as school curricula is concerned, i am fairly ignorant (never having taught, served on a school board, no kids, etc.), but i wonder what happens to science education when it is left to local communities to decide w/o any other input. could we have whole enclaves/locales that are taught that evolution is a hoax foisted on us by deranged communists? and the global warming is actually a side effect of premarital sex? and then there is the question of sex ed?
Read Monkey Girl about the Dover and Kansas school board fights. Parents were able to argue that teaching intelligent design was thinly masked religion (read creationism) and did not belong in the public school system. If that school system had been supported entirely locally, would they have won, or even been able to have the argument? I don't know.
The most pathetic part: the face isn't worth saving.
Ron paul definately won the debate, but i see alot of comments regarding his domestic policy, lets bring some of your concerns to light.
first it should be noted that just because he does not agree or beleive in a certain policy/organization does not mean that he will get rid of it, he has said many times that he is willing to work with his constituents on various issues and will only do things that the people want.
anyways as far as the cia/fbi thing goes, he says since we do not listen to their advice whats the point in having them around? we did not listen to them prior to sept 11th or now regarding the war in iraq ( all the cia reports tell us we are not making any progress) so why waste money on them? he does say we need them to gather intelligence however but on a much smaller scale and with total transparency.
federal funding of schools is illogical, should be left up to the local governments, kind of like the president of the company deciding how much of a raise to give you rather than relying on your direct manager who works with you every day and is way more informed.
Ron paul is by far the best candidate running for president, and i would be more than happy to address any other concerns you may have as i am well read in his positions.
Fanon @ 146:
Read Monkey Girl about the Dover and Kansas school board fights. Parents were able to argue that teaching intelligent design was thinly masked religion (read creationism) and did not belong in the public school system. If that school system had been supported entirely locally, would they have won, or even been able to have the argument? I don't know.
thanks Fanon, i'll put that on the 'to read' list
and that made me wonder something... would, then, local communities--in that their school systems would be completely independent from the federal govt--be free to ignore federal rules, guidelines and court rulings on education (i think you can see where i am going with this *cough, brown v board, cough*)?
[...] UPDATE: Here’s the video… Crooks and Liars » FOXNews/GOP Debate: “All we’re doing is saving face” [...]
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