Last Chance Saloon
Cenk Uygur at Huffington Post wonders if the Democrats in DC understand that this is the last time they can credibly challenge President Bush on Iraq:
I would like to buy the Democrats a clue. According to the latest USA Today/Gallup poll, 60% of Americans are to the left of you! They answered that they are in favor of hard deadlines for withdrawal no matter what the conditions on the ground are. That is considerably starker than the average Democrat's position.
By the way, this was a poll question loaded to get a low answer. Who is really going to say they are for withdrawal no matter what the conditions are? Well, apparently a huge majority of Americans. Even with that kind of loaded question, sixty percent said we have to go -- no matter what.
Are you listening Democrats? The amount of disdain the Democrats will have earned if they buckle again will be immeasurable. Even with overwhelming American support behind them, the most deeply unpopular president of all time and the country in a mood for dramatic change, if they give in to Bush again, the world will not be able to contain our disgust with them.
The next six months are going to be critical for the Democrats. Many are beginning to wonder if the Congressional Surge is sustainable.
The Democrats never have been Left where you ever get that idea? Sorry to be so blunt.
America, we are now six going on seven years old, WAKE THE F*#K UP. July 4th has been displaced with 911.
It's becoming painfully obvious that the Dems don't have a clue that if they don't stand up to the dictator this last time, they can pack their bags and plan on leaving Washington when their term expires. It will be a foregone conclusion that anyone (Democrat or Repuke) whose up for re-election in 08 will be "swept clean".
I'm a "Gallup partner", and I can assure you that their poll is not scientific. In the original questionnaire I completed, I answered very bluntly my political perspective. Since then, I have been given really stupid questionnaires on shopping, traveling, and jobs.
If they're reporting 60% of Americans are to the left of democrats, it has to be much higher; if they're not asking me, who else are they not asking?
I just heard the more Democrats have switched their party affiliation to "Independent" this past month which will raise the numbers from 35% to ?? Democrats had better beware. These are largely very disenchanted, disgusted Democrats who have renounced their party ties to your botched plan to bring accountability and honesty to this administration of corruption. They've failed us miserably which is not to say that the Repukes are gaining favor with americans. Americans already know that they're sickos who only care about themselves.
The People's Party may spring into the 08 race yet! At least there's hope on the horizon. The democrats do not deserve any accolades from the people; they're failing us miserably right now.
Impeachment is on the lips of every american with an above average intelligent quotient and a pulse. The reichwing, lockstep, braindead zombie fascists don't count. They've traded their souls to the devil.
I have been voting for democrats my entire adult life, but if they cave-in this time I am voting 3rd party in the next elections.
hadenuf @ 5:
Actually, if you count the 35% registered democrats and add to that 35+% of Independents (mostly disgusted Dems), you would be more like 72-73% of the people who are "to the left" of the sycophantic, spineless democrats.
Time for a new party!
Of course. america's arming and playing of all sides in Iraq is the source of the alleged "civil war."
sorry...meant 37% registered dems and 35+% registered independents which leaves the Repukes at a miserable 26-27%. I'd say that the Repukes are quickly becoming the "third party" if the I's decide to unite.
L.A. Confidential: That's not entirely true. They stopped being leftist around the early 80s. That's when the effing boomers crashed the party and decided they deserved to get tax cuts for ending segregation which didn't involve them putting up ordinances to keep black people from moving into their neighborhoods-and the rest is history.
sunset @ 8:
I would agree that the Gallup numbers are significantly higher - as I've said it's more like 72% of people "to the left" of the Democrats right now.
As I said at my place today about Obama, any Democratic Presidential candidate who cannot stand up to Bush on Iraq needs to get off the stage. That doesn't leave very many...
What difference does it make when the Dems are going to let Mad George invade Iran?
No more another six month!
repugs laughed that the dems bent over for the last six months.
this is not the dems or the repugs US. It's ours. If the dems allow another six months to happen again then they are part of the problem. How many six months will it take for the dems to understand the repugs are playing games with our lives?
And pelosi was wrong, wrong, wrong to come in the house talking about her personal beliefs that there will be no impeachment. That was a repug move if I ever seen one.
.
The turn of conversation needs to be one of questioning the intentions of the Democratic Party, as a whole.
What and what do they represent? A gateway for more Republicanism?
In the last 7 years, the Democrats have postured themselves to be as self serving as Republicans. The Democrats have endorsed anti-American principles and Republicanism to-the-hilt. Illegal war, torture, spying, etc.
The right wing is attached to the left wing of this dead and dying bird.
America deserves a third party, NOT one Party with two faces.
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You're missing the bigger political picture here.
Someplace in Ohio, or Missouri, is a "Security Mom" in an SUV, who really wants a tough talking Macho Man to keep her safe from Gay Illegal Immigrant Terrorists...Or something like that.
Now, even though this doodle head is going to vote for Rudy or Fred anyway, cause hubby tells her to, Hillary and the rest of the triangulation crew will make sure to court her vote by not going soft on supporting the troops?
So, they will capitulate to Bush in the end, like they always do...
Hey, just how big IS the IRAQ war memorial going to be? Maybe then can just append it to the Vietnam Memorial wall....
Tequila @ 11:
THAT'S not entirely true.
It's a sad day when one cannot distinguish most dems from neocons save for the fact that one has an warmongering elephant on their back and the other's a jackass!
This is extreme of me to say it, but I mean it. I will vote for a Republican, just to spite the Demo-cowards, if they don't find their balls and spine and VOTE TO END THE WAR. They've blown their 'last chance' to prove themselves before the summer.
Why don't the Dem's just come out and say now the real estate bubble has burst the war economy is the only thing we have holding it together.
Max-1 @ 16:
You're right. In stead of the dems being their own coin they have become the other side of the repug coin.
I Am A Banana @ 20:
President Romney or President McCain or President Guliani or President Thompson or President Huckabee? Um, sorry, no friggin' way.
I feel sorry for you having to live there and be Americans. I feel sorry for us, for having to live with you. No one on the planet likes or respects America any longer. If they attack Iran, the world might step in to act this time, but not to fight Iran, to fight the USA.
I posted this on another C&L thread, but have yet to receive any feed-back, so need
help.
As to bush's request for an additional $50 Billion in funding:
Funding initiates in the House of Representatives.,.which consist of 435 members,
of which 231 are Dems and 204 are Repigs. If funding bill is brought to the floor,
how many votes(or percentage wise) does it take to DISAPPROVE? Just a simple
majority?
The U.S. Sentate is made up of 100 members; 49 Dems, 48 Repigs and 2 "Independent"
(including LIE-berman). If funding disapproved in the U.S. House, how many votes
or percentage wise, is required in the U.S. Senate to uphold such funding disapproval?
It, to me, seems rather simple and certainly not complex IF only a "simple majority" in
both houses can vote to disapprove the $50Billion requested that bush and if the Dems
have any ball whatsoever, they could//should be able to defeat the additional funding.
Am I missing something???
I Am A Banana @ 20:
You know where to put that banana don't you...
We need to leave Iraq asap....and it will still take 6 months from start to finish.....no matter what!
dems need to investigate the phony intel and the people involved in devising this scam, from michael ledeen to the AEI and OSP. people need to go to prison this time. This same cast of characters got away with the iran contra scam and if they get away with this, they will be back again.
I Am A Banana @ 20:
Like cutting off your head to spite your nose hairs?
My paraphrasing of most comments in this (and other) thread(s):
Disgruntled Liberal @ XYZ:
Not to sound cynical, but I find it intriguing to hear so much about "when will the Democrats finally decide enough is enough?" and the load of ultimatums that usually follow that statement. This is amusing to me for two reasons. First, I would ask the same question to those posting such comments. What about you? When will enough be enough for you? I challenge those who have such feelings toward the Democrats to put their money where their mouth is and actually do something to bring about change! Contribute to the campaign of a progressive candidate in your area, participate in a canvasing campaign/call center/protest. Heck, run for office yourself if you're that self-righteous about it, but for God's sake DO SOMETHING!
Secondly, to the ultimatum of voting for third party candidates. There seems to be some confusion between the terms "third party candidate" and "independent". "Independents" are a conglomeration of voters/candidates who do not affiliate with any party and do not necessarily share any political views, whereas a "party" implies a specific, unified platform or political agenda (sorry for the politics lesson, but sadly, we don't really teach civics in our schools anymore). I currently don't see any third party out there with a specific, unified agenda seeking unabated withdrawal from Iraq, complete restoration of civil liberties/habeus corpus, reigning in of corporate/government chronyism, I see most of these "I'm gonna vote for a third party" as empty threats. Believe me, I'd like to see such a party exist too, I would vote down the party line out the wazoo, but IT JUST ISN'T THERE, FOLKS! So, call me an enabler, but until some people actually grow some brass cajones and form such a party (see my first comment), I'm sticking with PROGRESSIVE Democrats who, once we vote enough of them into office, will actually have a shot at correcting the governmental injustices of the last seven years.
Sorry for the tough love, this comment isn't meant as any kind of flame or insult. I'm just tired of hearing people use so many words instead of actions...
PNAAC Minister @ 29:
I know, but I'm pissed.
"Are you listening Democrats?"
Well.."no".
No, they are not listening.
However,never fear:once the numbers get up into the high 90s against further occupation of Iraq these stalwart Dems will snap into decisive action,and form a committee to look into pulling out over a 10 year time frame..give or take any random number of years.
They aren't listening.
They listen to anything involving MONEY, especially if they can vote themselves a raise.
Dems are Dems in name only. DINO.
mudshark @ 26:
Well said. I concur...
So what are you all going to do about it????
Continue to WAIT?
Did any of you get involved as I and others like www.Strike911.org did?????
Did any of you get involved as I and others like www.Strike911.org did?????
I told you all of this was going to happen prior to the November elections unless you got out there and forced them. I told you all they were going to push Iraq into a civil war and break Iraq into three parts(that last part is in the works). I told you they were going to continue the PNAC plans and use the same lies to attack Iran. And I told you they are setting it up to install Hillary Billary in the White House. Please don't say "Well she's better than a Republican". If you do your research you know she's from the same group.
Why do you think they are trying to undermine Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul even though they are winning online polls like crazy?
Where were all of you when Dennis Kucinich introduced a bill to impeach? I came here and there wasn't even a single mention of it that day.
They have both sides (Republican & Democrat supporters) played like a fiddle. Calling eachother names as they continue their crimes.
70% of 300 Million could make anything they want happen if they weren't so complacent. Heck even 1% could make anything happen if they actually came together.
Actions speak louder than words.
yenehC hcaepmI @ 35:
seems to me your patting yourself on the back and all I see are words.......and wtf....Ron Paul??????
You have to start to wonder if the Democrats are playing politics with the troops lives. If they pull the purse strings and things get worse then the the Rethuglicans will blame it on them ahead of the upcoming elections. Best to stay the course so the Rethuglicans can get the full blame, after all, it's only a little over a year right? What's another 1,000 American soldiers lives for a lost cause if the Dems won't get hit politically in November 2008?
Sad but true?
I wish ALL the liberal/progressive blogs (e.g., Crooks&Liars, Americablog, KOs, RawStory, HP, ThinkProgress, etc.) would have a organized campaign / Call to Action where the pressure is so huge, that Democratic Senators and Congresspeople will end up getting scared of We The People.
We have to hold the Dems feet to the fire, and I do mean BOMB fire, and tell them they better act NOW!
No more ands/ifs/buts ... they left us steaming mad before the summer and told us to wait for the SEPTEMBER 2007 report.
Well the end of the line is NOW!
I can't believe our nation is resembling so much the country depicted in the movie "V is for Vendetta".
We all need to watch it and stand upt to our elected leaders giving them an ultimatum: ACT NOW or you are gone!
"People should not be afraid of its government; the government should be afraid of its people"
:-|
I have not been able to contain my digust for a while now.
What do we do when voting fails?
Andrea asks: Do you think Democrats realize how alienated and disenfranchised thousands of their voters are? Why can't the Democrats stick together like the GOP when things are so ugly? I think we're doomed.
Cafferty says: Great question. The Democrats were handed a golden opportunity to challenge President Bush on the war when they were given control of Congress in the midterm elections last year. So far they have done absolutely nothing. (Yes, I know it takes 60 votes in the Senate... but the House must pass all appropriations bills for the war and they only need a simple majority). It seems the Democrats are the greatest thing the Republicans have going for them sometimes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jack-cafferty/livechat-getting-ugly-_b_641...
How is it the Dems have lowered our expectations to this level?
We are hoping for any action against troop levels.... what happened to our IMPEACHment? That is why I voted Dem...
NEVER agian.
Edwin @ 24:
Agreed. It would be nasty to think that a country which assisted in liberating Europe from Nazi Germany now has to be liberated the same way by outsiders.
Btw the Japanese PM resigned from his post over being unable to get the Parliament to agree on assisting the US. The world now knows that helping the US is tantamount to helping the devil.
mudshark @ 36:
It's not patting oneself the back.
Its raw anger and frustration that is overtaking rational thought required to type the right words.
I know you have been around here for a long time, but hate to say this, your reply sounded a lot like a concern troll's and its not helping.
Conservatives, present congress (all of them!) included, have been in control of this country for 30 years. Reagan's de-regulation policies have led to the collapse of the air traffic system, the castration of the Department of Agriculture and the complete disregard to the maintenance of our infrastructure. Our highways are falling apart, our children are not being educated and our national goals have become confused with authoritarian religious cultism.
The democrats are as much at fault as the Republicans. Republican power has now run its course, so the Democrats can screw us again.
HOpefully this war and ironically George Bush, will inspire true Americans (spelled LIBERALS) will run the bastards from both parties off and elect true representatives of the people in 2008. If not, God help us.
More:
The only liberal president we have had since Kennedy was Jimmy Carter and you saw what they did to him.
Certainly Clinton was not a liberal, he was a Reagan Democrat. Can you say NAFTA?
Nor is Mrs. Clinton our presumptive next president a liberal.
We must stop this pattern. We must choose someone outside of the Dem/Repub Club: Edwards, Obama, or even Bloomberg. We must break this pattern.
Bholland @ 44:
FYI....Reagan drew up NAFTA....Bush fine tuned it and yes B Clinton signed it....but your point is well taken.
A consensus is seen above. We need a third party, legitimately progressive, not like 94% of the sell-out Dinos or fascist ReThuglicscum. Where is it? I live close enough to San Francisco to plan on helping out Cindy Sheehan's campaign. Still, even in very progressive S.F., she'll have a tough time against all the corporate money Bush's enabler Pelosi can raise.
What about the rest of the country? The elite love their war, & won't drop it no matter how genocidal and failed it is. What's the point of elections when no candidates worth voting for are able to run ($$$)? Did Americans dozing land us all in Stalinist Russia? Somoza's Nicaragua?
In response to #36 mudshark:
See this is what I mean. What does that comment do? I rarely see anyone post anything about taking action. Just some type of attack comments.
If I wanted to pat myself on the back I'd be telling you everything I do on a daily basis. And of course you see words on a blog because what else is there? But the words are about people needing to take some ACTION.
And Ron Paul would be better than any of the other Republicans or even the top media favorite Dems. Who do you want to see on the Republican side? Do you want Giuliani or are you a Romney fan? Perhaps you like new (old) kid on the block Fred?
Don't you see how the media are playing both sides as fools? Do you see what they do to Dennis Kucinich?
They know they can continue this charade. Bush will announce 30,000 troops are coming home (the same amount they sent for the surge) and that will buy the Dems and Reps more time to continue to drag the people along for the ride.
I'm just wondering what it's going to take to get the majority of those opposed to get out and take action?
#42...really.......well I don't mean to bust your bubble..but.....why should I beleive his or hers rant?I stand with my above post.
the DNC has the 50-state program that beat rahm emmanuel's schitts 8-1 in congressional seats. So bad they sent Carville after Dean.
think about what it will take to salvage your party in your state.
yenehC hcaepmI @ 47:
What I do is confront the individual every chance I get.And try to show them they were duped...everyday....and fyi....I'm leaning to DK......oh...and I've been doing this for years now..
AR @ 42:
If you've seen me here then you know where I stand on the issues.......nuff said
mudshark @ 50:
Duped by who or what? I really would like to know.
The ultimate NWO plan is to have 100% of Americans having zero confidence in every facet of government.
AR @ 52:
ok I'll bite....Duped by this admin,Boosh himself with all his bullshit lies about taxcuts for the commom man.Bullshitted about Kerry with the swiftboats...bullshitted about Iraq.explained to them that Katrina was a massive govt failure and still is to this day......I started the day boosh was selected the first time....What have you done?...Now I would really like to know........
The Democrats in office now have obviously forgotten that we are the ones who directed and created the change in the mid-term elections. They are there because we put them there. That can and should be changed again. I plan to do my part because it is the only way that I can try to help correct all the mistakes that our government has made, Democrats included. Vote against anyone who voted for the war and who voted to continue funding.
ofcourse there always the benefit cuts for the VA...that ones personal...and then theres the deregulation of the FDA...have you heard that the FDA now refuses to inspect spinach for sales here and abroad.....now Europe and other nations are refusing to buy our produce...that's not good or the country....and then theres the sales of weapons to bothsides of a fight (Israel and Saudi Arabia(no their not fighting directly but you get my point)....lets see....what else.....give me a few minutes and it will come to me...OH .....how about holding people without giving them a trial....you know..Habeus Corpus..........
you want more?
I'll be back in 20 minutes....
"60% of Americans are to the left of you! "
The Iraq War is not a left-right issue.
Jeez.
Some of the most right wing people I know are opposed to this stupid goddamned war and have been all along.
they still have the DLC instincts
ok what have you got AR.........but lets go back to Iraq for awhile....WMD's Colin Powell or how about the PDB dated aug 6th 2001.....ok AR....what have you got..?
and YenehC....are you kidding me Ron Paul.........I suppose he is the better of the options .....for republicans...........but certainly not the country.
AR..next time you challenge me.....stick around.....that would be the right thing to do.
two more things before I go...1st..getting out of the Kyoto Protocol...and..throwing out the Geneva Convention.....as you know theres more....maybe next time.....I'll be waiting
mudshark @ 63:
I wasn't challenging you. All I was pointing out was to not put down people just for ranting out their frustration at what's going on around them.
If you were looking for a fight or a chance to beat me down, you came to the wrong place.
AR @ 65:
Then why did you challenge me on post #52....
Once again confusing some Senate Democrats with the majority of the caucus in the House...
"they are in favor of hard deadlines for withdrawal no matter what the conditions on the ground are. That is considerably starker than the average Democrat’s position."
This 'average Democrat' does not exist. The majority of Democrats in the House, and of the Senate, already support an 'immediate' withdrawal from Iraq.
Text of bill: http://www.speaker.gov/legislation?id=0057
Actually getting it to happen of course has two major obstacles -- the use of any further terrorist attack to destroy the Constitution (as overtly threatened by General Boykin and VP Cheney), and the use of the crooked media to foster lies and deceptions leading to the (*imminent) war with Iran.
Dem-bashing won't change either of those obstacles.
jitter @ 59:
And they have done WHAT with that opposition? WHERE ARE THEIR PROTESTS? Where are their sit-ins in Republican offices? Where is their public pressure on FOX and other crooked media warwhores?
The rightwingers you talk about aren't worth spit.
mudshark @ 66:
oh and one more thing...I wasn't looking for a fight or to beat you down.....You asked so I answered...it's the way you asked.......
During Viet Nam I remember Americans getting to the point that 71 or 72% of us wanted out of Viet Nam now...period regardless of the consequences. Nixon's response...was that he would not be swayed by public opinion.
There is one big difference between now (Iraq) and then (Viet Nam) and that is the constant demonstrations against the war going on and the constant speaking out against it. It was the main topic of conversation at work etc.
Now we can be at work or at a social gathering and not one person mentions Iraq. I just want to scream what is the matter with all of you.....
Democrats in congress are ass kissing little xhickensh*ts. I hate people like that. Every death caused by the war can now be laid at their doorstep because they had the chance to stop it and didn't
Rabbit
60% of Americans want us out of Iraq and the Dem's - sniveling suckup politicians that they are - still won't budge... who could possibly be more important than americans in their decision??? who owns this country??? ISRAEL
Impeach Pelosi, Hoyer, Reid and all the rest of the stealth Republican corporatists. Nothing is going to change until these scumbags are out of a position to sabatoge the will of the majority.
Pathetic Dem-bashing won't solve our situation at all.
Didn't you hear? We're at WAR, and defunding it has serious threats attached.
The bastard in charge has lost a lot of power, his credibility, but the power of his threats remains pretty much intact.
Your rhetoric about 'stealth...corporatists' is just SO much bullshit. The net effect is that you blame the wrong people. There are corporatists in the Congress, but Speaker Pelosi is not one of them. Her husband made a bunch of money in real estate, and they don't need or want corporate graft or a corporatist world for their grandchildren. She doesn't need it, doesn't want it, and won't support it. She voted NO on the Iraq Resolution along with sixty percent of the caucus. She continues to oppose.
But rather than scapegoat her for the size of this coup, which is stupid, you go further, and slander her as something she's not. And that makes you a fool. There are so many smart fools around these days it's hard to keep track, but you will know it when you succeed in damaging Pelosi's stature, and end up with a non-Progressive Speaker who won't make her mistakes listening to the public and doing what is possible. They'll just greenlight the insanity, and you can have a bloody revolution, or whatever it is you think you're up for.
For the next year and a half, you have one of the most progressive Speakers in the history of the United States. And your response? Scapegoating and slander, and threats about revolution. What a bunch of dopes.
Paul in LA @ 74:
I am so tired of people calling the Dems cowards and spineless.....I agree with everything you said here...
Turning Up The Heat On Bush
Paul in LA @ 74:
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Pelosi is up to her eyeballs in corporate cash and has her head so far up the war-mongering Israel Lobby's ass that and all it took for her to do away with an amendment that would have required Bush to get authorization from congress before attacking Iran like the Constitution calls for was a phone call from "the lobby."
Frank @ 77:
Frank...with all due respect.....would you provide some proof of these allegations you've made........how about posting a link to back up the rhetoric...
I know it's just HuffPo, but
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-tasini/nancy-pelosi-stop-drinki_b...
The last line nails it...
"In six months, once the spoils of victory are divided (committee chairs, party positions) it will be the voters who are left wondering what they've voted for."
How prescient indeed.
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