The conventional wisdom suggests the troops vote Republican. It's been this way for a generation, and it's not going to change.
But if campaign contributions are any indication, the GOP is losing the troops.
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Stick a fork in the GOP and this war.
They're done.
I think the GOP has been losing the military vote for a long time now. Remember the Florida 2000 vote? the contested absentee votes were from military overseas. And the repub caging lists were military personnel as well.
Let's not forget in the 2000 election, with special attention to Florida, how the absentee
ballots of military personnel overseas were in many cases(involving mainly Dems as I recall)
challenged and NOT counted. Just more voter fraud by Repig Party and since it
has occurred in the past, I certainly hope that military person voting absentee are not
again deprived of their votes.
It only makes sense, after all, they are "the fodder" to his madness.
This is why the Pentagon won't let them use myspace and youtube
Next election, expect to see many absentee ballots "disappear" or get uncounted. That's supporting the troops for ya.
Maybe Dems will be a little more lenient in counting their absentee ballots now.
'One day late on your postmark, soldier. Sorry about that.'
RON PAUL!!
dennis @ 7:
Say what? "Dems being a little more lenient...". WTF are you talking about?
Good for those smart military folk. The republican'ts are a bunch of lying ba$tards who support their own special interests. To hell with them all!
It will be funny when the military votes heavily against the GOP and then find out that their ballots got counted the other way. The democracy these fools think they're defending was eradicated before they were born.
Hopefully, as a result of bush's last "speech", the military will get over the "battered wife syndrome" they have been suffering from for years, and finally stop supporting the treasonous war criminals in the White House.
We can only hope...
The lasting legacy of Karl Rove and BushCo will be the complete dismantling of the Repuglican party. This is one more data point in support of that. Already the younger generation is being repulsed by this party of status quo and oil and military barons. The general population is also trending away from the core of religious right wing dead enders. Several states that were solidly in the red column are trending blue - Colorado, Nebraska, perhaps even Idaho.
Roveco's one additional deposited "turd" is the lowering of the office of the president of US. It is hard to conceive of a time when people have so little regard for the words and tactics of any US president. Yesterday's CNN quick poll had 80% of the respondents saying they were NOT planning to hear Bush tell his lies. I did not hear it more than I had to on the radio (on my way back home from work).
Doggiebobo @ 3:
The other RNC trick is to disallow the registration status if your address changes, as happens when active duty troops are deployed. They have to reresgister from their new address, many times not in time to vote. Their ballots are then thrown in the trash. But if this news is accurate, the RNC vote counters will simply throw out all absentee ballots from overseas. There is no way to monitor this practice, and The Dems just cower in the corner and utter their favorite justification: "Well' it's over so what can we do?".
Do NOT vote absentee. Do NOT accept a provisional ballot. Challenge the challengers. Make sure your registration is up to date. Then vote EARLY and in groups at the early polling stations that nearly ALL districts will have available.
Actually, conventional wisdom was that the "rank and file" voted Democratic and the officer's corp voted Republican.
All the people counting the ballots are GOP loyalists, just like Diebold. The actual votes are immaterial, since all that matters are the totals, and officials 'determine' the totals. Get it? All the officials are loyalists because everybody else has been purged.
Roy Zimmerman - ChickenHawk
And me - Lip Service War Supporter
As a matter of needing factual info... If/when a military person stationed overseas requests
and receives, properly fills out, and within the time allows, sends an "absentee ballot"
wherein he/she casts a vote, exactly to WHO is the absentee ballot mailed/delivered?
His/her voting district, to the county commissioner, or precisely to who???
Conventional wisdom??? Its been turned on its ear... Actually, there's no such thing anymore since Bush......Iraq isn't the only nation whose infrastructure Chimpy has broken...Iraqies and middle east fanatics aren't the only people pissed at this moron now...JD
steve @ 8:
Beware what you wish for, you may get it!
Voting for someone because of one issue does not differentiate you from the radical right religious wing. As a libertarian Ron Paul wants to get rid of many of the social safety nets that we as a people have fought long and hard to get in place.
It's also human nature to turn on your employers if they seem intent on trying to kill you for no good reason.
My short experience in the Air Force showed to me that military guys come across the geographical and political spectrum, and only career types could be said to closely follow politics. The other two categories were lifers and people only serving out their enlistment.
That being said though, those comfortable in the hierarchical structure of the military tended to vote conservate who are also hierarchical.
How can the GOP not lose the military vote. The GOP lie every time they get a chance. They think everyone is stupid. the jokes on them.
Are a lot of military folks authoritarian? Anyone got a clue?
Forget about that guy who was always getting hammered and nailed; here's boosh's real inspiration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmCFQMxw2w4
More proof that being shot at is great for focusing the mind.
I was in the Marines, I recall most of the enlisted people around me voting for Democrats.
Kinda goes against the conventional Wiz... In fact being in the service is what convinced me of the wrongness of voting wrong, voting for repugs.
Gordon, Marine - ret.
The funny thing is Republican vote caging attempts on newly registered voters are denying the franchise to those service people overseas, pretty much negating the XXVIth amendment of the US Constitution as well as HAVA.
They have definitely lost well over 3,000 military votes so far.
All the more reason to rig the vote -- like the last two times. They're getting very good at it. Perhaps that's Karl's new job which he can carry on out of the spotlight.
The war may be the thing that puts the GOP finally into the political grave, but the fact is that the blowback against this party was long in coming. Supply side, tax cuts for the rich and the hell with everyone else economic policy has finally come around and made the middle class realize that the GOP cares nary a wit about them. The GOP got away with it by wrapping themselves in the flag and invoking God's name. Now with the realization that they don't care about the soldiers, as well as hypocrisy on social issues, personal sexual issues and preference and a whole host of small things (like cuts to education, etc)...the shitpile has gotten bigger than any flag waving can withstand.
The GOP will be going back into the political wilderness from whence they came.
My military friends are liberal green-types who were against the Iraq war from the get-go.
Just sayin'!
Go Ron Paul!
...and MoveOn just helped the rethuglicans regain more than a few with their ill-conceived, Provocateurish ad in the NYTimes.
[September 13 2007] Travus T. Hipp Morning News & Commentary: Was The MoveOn Ad About General Petraeus Placed By Provocateurs? My Paranoia About Government ‘Oversight’, Surveillance, AND Manipulation Of It’s Citizens Has It’s Roots In A Very Real, Very Weird, American History
John Samsonite @ 32:
Yes, go away.
that's more votes that they don't have to count
I was in USAF from 73-77 and found that the people in my squadron (5th Fighter Interceptor Squadron) were from all across the political spectrum but, with the same goal of being ready to protect our country. I voted from Jerry Brown in 76 primary and Eugene McCarthy (independent) in the general election.
You all know what this means, right? Like other posters have already said, lots of military vote will be challenged and not counted. The GOP will do anything to turn the election to their favor and Guiliani will be the next President. I don't like it to happen, but trust me...it will. The Corporate Elite will never allow that Ron Paul will be the GOP-Presidential Candidate, way too libertarian and (real-) free-market for them. And Hillary? Well, once she's is the Democrat candidate, Ralph Nader will start his own campaign and then...
On the other hand, I heard the European Union is planning a new immigration program. Their idea is 20 million new immigrants, mainly from Asia and Africa, but who's says there can't be some Americans among them.
jtmonty46 @ 36:
So? I was in a field artillary company w/2nd Division...and I do not recall any of us
every talking about politics.. Personally, my goal was to get out of the Army. By
the way, I voted for McGovern.
Doggiebobo @ 38:
Just trying to point out the diverse population of the military.
When I was in the Service most of us were too stoned to know what day it is, remember that it was election day, and lacked the ability to get up off the floor.
SwedishMeatballKraut @ 37:
I'll be one of 'em.
ysbaddaden @ 40:
An accurate description as I too recall. That's why, with a really, really good 1st Sgt.,
he encouraged us to absentee vote(ahead of actual Election Day); knowing that we'd
not be in good condition when it came time to vote.
ysbaddaden @ 40:
Refrigerator Content:
1 Brick of Hash
1 Six-Pack Old Milwaukee
1 Pickle Jar (juice, one pickle)
Been in that dorm room...
WOW! So even the military is being fooled into thinking that the Democrats want to stop this war!! SUCKERS!! HA HA HA!
We can hope the rank and file military folks see their voting interests as different from other "military interests" like Haliburton, Kellog Brown and Root, General Dynamics, Boeing, etc....
One group gets rich when the bomb and bullets fly, the other group gets folded flags.
bob @ 20:
Saftey nets? ya mean tax eating socialist crap.
Stoic @ 15:
I think you are correct on this one. I was one of the few liberal officers...well maybe the only one and most of the troops who where minorities were voting Democrat.
This marriage between the military and the Republican Party is over. The myths of them supporting the military is crumbling right before most military service member eyes. I always new it was a myth because the only thing military folks can come up with to argue is that Reagan increased defense spending. Hell, so did Kennedy to counter Khrushchev and we all know about LBJ. I found that most the officers who were voting Repuke really didn't know why but they thought they were suppose to...they're really uniformed which was frustrating for me.
Military Absentee Ballots? Those are only counted when it serves the GOP machine in close elections.
I have voted pretty much straight Democrat for more than 30 years. I have voted straight Democrat in those presidential elections. Many of the people I knew while in the military voted as I did. It only takes a bit of research to see who wants to send you off to war and who is more likely not to. And while everyone believes that Reagan gave a significant pay raise just after he took office, there were Democrats in Congress that helped to present the bill. I've always felt that the Democratic Party had the best interests of the average military person in mind much more than the Republicans. The Republicans are just much better at smoke and mirrors.
I'm retired military.
One of the reasons military members tended to vote R was the perception (whether it was true or not) that the Dems would cut military spending and this would lead to smaller pay raises, less benefits, etc.
However I think more and more military members want to see someone competent in charge. And obviously W's administration has been the epitome of incompetence.
I retired after W was elected and after we went into Iraq and the feeling amongst everyone I know was that we were over there for the oil and nothing more.
GO RON PAUL!!! ONLY CHANCE TO GET OUT OF IRAQ AND STAY OUT OF IRAN!!!
hlcno @ 46:
I think that's what he meant. Personally, I love my tax dollars going for corporate welfare, farm subsidies, Iraq war/Iraq contracts, another layer of bureaucracy in education, and most of all, Bush and Cheney's salaries and congressional pensions. I really want more of the same really, so it doesn't matter who I vote for, because I'll get it.
The GOP is losing the officer vote, as they are educated, the enlisted, not so sure, young guys/gals in the military are often not politically astute and by default vote GOP.
Josh @ 52: =
I always figured it for a one-party state with two right-wings.
Kucinich/Paul in '08!
Return the right of split-ticket voting!
Also I think a reason for this shift is that many of the new candidates running for office and
those that ran during the last elections were veterans...and Democrats.
The Dems will screw this opportunity up. There is a HUGE opening for them to make enormous ground on the conservatives. Ground that will last a couple generations.
Fighting terrorism.
It's that simple. "Iraq was not the terrorists. For the past 4-5 years in Iraq, we have not been fighting the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. We have spent all those lives, and that time and money for a pipe dream. The terrorists have been allowed to thrive while conservatives have played games in Iraq and refused to admit they were wrong."
It's really that friggin simple. Middle America will respond. The military itself will respond. Most of the military does not want to play at roman empire. The modern conservative movement depends upon people remaining ignorant and ill-informed and not having the very basic facts of reality. People are responding to the truth we are forcing to be recognized
And somehow the Dems will screw it up because 90% of them lack the courage and vision to understand it.
Fuckin'-A the republicans are losing the military vote!
A lot of us are working the issue daily. I work on a Navy base and there's a Senior Chief in my office. Once a week, he gathers his troops and they discuss issues of the day.
He prints out news stories and then gets them talking about the issues and who is representing their values. I've seen him win some converts and I've seen him suffer some slings and arrows for doing so.
I also make a point to check the GAO and to read the congressional minutes and to discuss these things with service members. I don't know if I've ever changed anyone's opinion, but I have stopped a lot of bullshit from perpetuating.
Hearts and minds, baby. Hearts and minds.
Tim in Japan @ 57:
Keep it up Tim. It'll be won by gaining inches like this. Only when the general population, and the military population support it will our spineless Dems start making moves. It's people that put in the effort to counteract the mindless, conservative-talking-point BS on a daily basis that are making the real change. Even if it's tough and you get flack for it, you're the ones making the real difference.
It's cold comfort, as you'll get no credit in the end. Just sastisfaction that you actually helped rescue the country we all love. As opposed to the majority of our congresspersons who bandwagon on when it's safe and take the credit afterwards.
enlisted usually vote ass while the officers vote repuke.
During the Reagan Years, I was living with a guy who was in the Navy in San Diego. Shortly before the election in 1984, he came home from the base and told me how that day he and the rest of the enlisted people had been required to attend a meeting in which their commanding officers told them that it was important that they vote and that they vote for Reagan and all other Republicans on the ballot. They were told by their commanding officers that Republicans supported the military and Democrats did not.
Wouldn't you think politicking like that on taxpayer time is illegal? But that's how they did it back then, and every time I hear of a poll that says the military is more Republican than the general public, I imagine that it's still being done today.
Why should they vote for the left? The left have had control for the past two years, and have shown that they cannot change the system either (besides outing gay republicans - they do that well). If the troops and anyone else in the this country wants "real" change they better vote 3rd party next year. There is no candidate besides Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul that MIGHT be able to end all the crap going on over there. If the democrats win, we will be in he same mess we are now, and we will get to watch republicans crucify you all for not fixing it, because that's what they do best. Maybe someday the democrats will figure out how to be ruthless like the right. Until then NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE in this country. The left and the right are there to force you to make a choice between two extremes. When will this country wake up to this fact?
Paul/Kucinich Co-Presidents in 08!!!
Having served for 20 years in the military and 20 years civil service I know for a fact that the media has it all wrong. The majority of enlisted vote Democrat. It used to be that the majority of the officer corp voted Republican but that is also shifting; witness all of the anti-Bush statements that are coming out having been spoken by high ranking military retired personnel.
All these folks who think Ron Paul will be a good Pres or VP........sorry..but I think your all out of your minds...
Speaking as a wife of a life time military man. I can say that is a lie if there ever was one told. All military people do not vote republican and never have.
It may be that the big brass in the military as they do in corporate America, but the little brass are not and nor have they ever been that ignorant.
And I am speaking of most all the solders of color because they always knew what they would have to contend with when they got home. They may talk the right talk as many white Americans do, but when they get home or if their votes are sent in it is done by the black wife or mother who is defiantly not foolish enough to be played like that.
They understand that they would always need union representation to fight for job security and the likes and they would never be fooled into thinking that America would be fair to them and the republican party has in the past decade, always reaped of bigotry and hatred for anything or anybody that insist on fair and honest treatment in this country except them. Remember the angry white man? What happen to him in the last six plus years?
That is the reasons they have and continue to screw with the voting rights of the solders back home as there is credible information of them trashing the votes of these men and women because they know they are not foolish enough to vote for these vile republicans, especially the ones of color.
You must remember black America called George Bush a fraud and a criminal's from the very beginning of his invasion of this country and the media went crazy, calling us haters of this country. Now there is a string of white Americans whom voted for this shit is massive numbers, now making plenty of money, writing books and speaking out.
How soon we all forget, or did we really forget and just choose to ignore it, because to do so would work against the grain?
It doesn't matter if the GOP is losing the military, which votes largely by absentee ballot. Shit-canning absentee ballots is one of the GOPer strategies for stealing elections. The law says they have to take absentee (and also provisional) ballots. It doesn't say anybody has to count them.
Since the troops are just expendable items and stage props to the Republicans, it won't bother GOPers at all to further betray the military by tossing their ballots in the trash. Nobody will say a word, precisely because the paradigm is that military = GOPer; nobody would expect Democratic ballots to go missing because, nobody is looking for democratic ballots from that demographic.
I buried Paul.
The GOP does NOT care on wit about the military absentee vote. They cage those votes anyway, so that when those ballots do come in those people's names have been struck through as invalid. You think they are going to let any votes that are hostile to GOP interests, especially military ones get through the system? You need to share the drugs you are on if you think the GOP will let all those military frontline troops get an honest vote in. The angry bloc is way bigger than the Kool-Aid bloc in Iraq and Afghanistan. And do not think for one minute that caging is limited to black and brown people on this one. GOP has been practicing for two presidential elections on how to steal them and been honing all their dirty tricks for 30 years in city precints and small towns to stop using them now when they are fighting for their very political existence.
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