This Week: George Will Tells Social Conservatives To "Grow Up"
By Nicole Belle Saturday Oct 06, 2007 6:33pm
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On This Week with George Stephanopolis, the roundtable discussion turned to the recent "threats" by the Religious Right (who apparently renamed themselves Social Conservatives) to run a third-party candidate as a result of their distaste for the all-but-presumed Republican candidacy of Rudy Giuliani.
While Claire Shipman suggests that this may be a tactical way for the Dobsons and Perkins of the Religious Right to re-assert to the Republican party the need to cater to them, seeing as the Republicans can't possibly win this election anyway, so splitting off the vote is more statement than a way to win, George Will has just one thing to say to them: Grow up.
Social conservatives should grow up. If they want to rally around somebody, why don't try that? Huckabee needs support and money now. If the social conservatives are half as important as they think they are, they would rally around one of these people [..] And then decide what you care about. If you care about judges, then you're gonna get satisfied by Giuliani, then get in line and play politics. But there's a vanity in this group right now. They call themselves "values voters." I've news for them: 100% of the American electorate are values voters; they vote their values...And this, this, kind of semantic imperialism that they have where they say "we vote values". Everyone else votes what?
Anyone have an idea why the Religious Right isn't throwing their support behind Huckabee? Seems like he'd be just their type of candidate.
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grow up
be serious
like the republicans
heh...
George must know that the worm has turned.
Too late.
Theocracy Party!! Please oh pretty please...
It kills me to say this, but (politically-speaking) it sounds like George Will is right on the money w/ that comment...
They don't support Huckabee because:
(a) He is somewhat of a populist who thinks of people not corporations.
(b) He actually has said good things about the Clintons.
(c) They don't believe he is a dirty campaigner that would attack the Clintons below the belt and cheat in order to win. In other words, he's a decent guy.
(d) They really wanted Newt to run.
(e) He doesn't need to kowtow to them because he lives his values and is secure in that.
(f) You just can't trust a musician.
(g) He'd probably be a decent conservative president who could actually work with both sides.
I keep tellin' ya!
Michael Jesus Archangel !!!
Down where it says, "Other Republican Candidates"...
I think this is the guy!
MN USA,
I was going to say that Huckabee isn't mean and dirty enough for the fundies, but you said it a lot better.
MN USA @ 5:
But he would still bomb Iran.
They are not rallying behind Huckabee, because he can't win. If they throw their weight behind a candidate and that candidate fails to get out of the primaries, then the power of the Christian Fascists will be severely damaged in the next electoral cycle. The Party will see the need to reform itself with a broader base, and the CFs will be out in the cold.
On the other hand, if the Fascists simply throw a hissy fit, and throw their weight behind a third party candidate, the Republican Loss of the Whitehouse will at least have the appearance of being at least in part a product of that defection - the fascists retain their sway over Republican leadership in the next cycle.
Let us prey that the “social conservatives” tear the Republican Party asunder.
First time, I think, that I've heard Georgie speak about anything (besides baseball) that didn't make me want to kill my TV.
Roket . . . the social conservatives HAVE torn the Repub party asunder. What's really fantaswtic is they'll keep it up.
Deighved H Stern MD @ 9:
The fact is, Huckabee could win. They don't want to win. They want to turn this mess, they have gotten us into, over to the dems. If they wanted to win, they wouldn't be pushing Rudy. Look at the rest of the candidates they are running. They all have the same message.
Let the social conservatives tear the republican party apart. Hopefully the republican party will rebuild itself with real conservatives with the smarts not to allow the social conservatives run the show. Hopefully talking points will become as offensive to the general electorate as showing up to a speech naked.
the religious right (who apparently renamed themselves social conservatives) they speak of a purity.............
this is the same shit used by hitler and the nazis in wwII. "normal" American
should be on notice that this kind of mindset is destructive of American citizens
and our Constitution.
i hope we have learned our history lesson, but i doubt the religious reich has.
I’ve news for them: 100% of the American electorate are values voters; they vote their values…And this, this, kind of semantic imperialism that they have where they say “we vote values”.
Has George never repeated the claims of the MSM that the looney right are the values voters?
MN USA @ 5:
You have a typo there. You put the words decent and conservative in the same sentence
There will absolutely be a third party challenge from the religious right. Tancredo may take the immigration and gun wackos with him as well. No way will they all get behind any one candidate.
I used to be concerned that if Hillary wins the nomination, it would galvanize the right against her. But now I don't think it will matter. The anyone-but-the-Republican vote will be enormous, from White House to school board, and the people who hate her the most are also the ones who are most likely to follow a splinter party.
Republicans will then commence clawing and eating each other like a Bosch painting, and their permanent majority project will be complete.
I agree with the GW and baseball comment. That is usually all I want to hear him talk about.
But there is more than a little hypocrisy by GW here. When those "social conservatives" were helping to win, and keep, the Republican majority, where was his outrage? In fact, WHO made these people as powerful in the RNC as they eventually became? People like GW who sat back, said nothing, and enjoyed the fruits of Dobson's labor. The republican party didn't win all those elections based on old school conservatism. They won it on Abortion, God, Guns and Gays, all brought to you by those (now) uppity social conservatives.
Republicans made their bed when they sold their good, solid, conservative values out to the Dobson, Robertson, Falwell wing of the party. If they can't win an election without that vote, maybe that should tell them something about what their party has become.
George Will wrong on Iraq, wrong on 'values', pretty much always wrong about pretty much everything.
Including fucking baseball.
I could be, just might be that this is why Huckabee don't 'appeal' to the mouthbreathin, fat slugs of the 'Churchy Folk'.
But then Mr. Will is too stupid to know what Huckabee is actually campaigning on.
George seems to have awakened from a long stupor on this one. If I was a Republican, the only one I could stomach at any level would be Huckabee. But, he is indeed too decent to win. Being a Democrat, I'll hold my nose just a bit to vote for Hilary and could probably march proudly into the booth with both Obama and Edwards. My secret self really likes Kucinich because he's extraordinarily truthful and has a sense of the real needs of the people he serves. Hilary is enormously qualified - not a single Republican can even touch her on that. compared to both Edwards and Obama - there is still no one who can touch their intellect and essential integrity. Huckabee - well - I'd vote for him if Mike Gravel was nominated. And we keep forgetting Biden - He so darn qualified if he could only get that enormous foot out of his mouth.
Great comments so far. I'll toss this into the mix:
At the moment, theocrats aren't used to having to "rally behind" anyone. They're accustomed to politicians' believing that they represent such a sizable majority of "real America" that every candidate just has to be on their good side. They're accustomed to having everyone else assume that they're indispensable, even if some of them know themselves that they're not.
And why shouldn't they be accustomed to it? The fucking Democrats have sure bought into it for the last decade or so. The media sure pushes that narrative. And the Machiavellians like Rove have had a lot of success pandering to these people, and turning them out in droves when other constituencies were more complacent.
Rally behind someone? The theocrats are just used to everyone coming to them, begging them for their votes, pleading with them not to come out against them. Suddenly, some Republicans did some math, and decided not to show up. And the theocrats feel snubbed, like a royal family who find out that people aren't coming to their parties anymore -- that there are better things to do, better people to court.
The only other reason the christfascists don't support Huckabee might be because he believes in using existing stem cell lines for research. Huckabee does not believe in creating life for the sole purpose of destroying it. Groups like Dobson's Focus on the Family don't support stem cell research at all.
well, I guess we get the worst trash after all...American Politics is like a cesspool...the REALLY big chunks rise to the top. So we get the worst...Clinton, Giuliani, and whatever idiot the splinter groups and religious nuts stick in there. No brilliance, no extraordinary leadership, at a tiime when we really need them, just more of the same old bullshit.
Father Ted Haggard's speed/gay hooker bust on the heels of the Mark Foley scandal is what made Rudy Ghouliani's candidacy viable.
Until the "Social Conservatives" wake up and smell the methamphetamines and realize that, they're in serious trouble.
They totally lost their place at the table because of that.
On the other hand, the can squawk all they want about this, but the fact is on Election Day 2008, if there's any truth to what John Dean and Dr. Altermeyer are saying they're going to hold their noses and pull the lever for a Ghouliani or Romney.
~nwa
They're playing the same game a whole lot of other people are playing - the worm has turned and few want to hitch themselves to a sinking ship.
"On the other hand, if the Fascists simply throw a hissy fit, and throw their weight behind a third party candidate, the Republican Loss of the Whitehouse will at least have the appearance of being at least in part a product of that defection - the fascists retain their sway over Republican leadership in the next cycle."
Bingo.
Dobson and his ilk have to play to their own base as well - creating your own candidate and losing is less politically damaging than endorsing an outsider.
Bush won in 04 partly thanks to these people going out and fearmongering the marriage issue much like Bushco fearmongers terrorism - a smart opposition might highlight the Haggards, Craigs, Foleys, Vitters to death.
"100% of the American electorate are values voters; they vote their values…And this, this, kind of semantic imperialism that they have where they say “we vote values”. Everyone else votes what?"
GW(ill) just has to lie everytime he opens his mouth.
Americans for the most part vote for candidates who they feel can best run the country. Is that because of their 'values'?
No, it is not. Few embraced Bill Clinton's sexcapades, and yet he had plenty of support and would have won 2000 easily had there been a legal election (and no 22nd Amendment).
Why? Not because of his 'values,' but because of his value to the country as a reasonably stabilizing chief executive who produced good value in the form of a successful economy.
GW(ill) just has to lie. It's all about 'values,' which means you have to steal elections to win, because God wants you to. No thanks, GW(ill). We prefer COMPETENCY to the 'values' of the smallheaded freaks you support.
The dog's turning to bite the master and the master don't like it.
Will is part of the gang that trained these "values voters".
I guess now he's re-training them.
...
Huckabee is simply not hypocritical enough to suit the values voters.
Ron @ 8:
yes but ever so gently!
First England beats Australia and France beats New Zealand to set up a European nations Rugby World Cup Semi Final. Then equally against the odds, George Will says something intelligent. All in one day!
Hey!
Grow Up
&
Get a life!!
Hey!
Grow Up
&
Get A Life!
Has hell frozen over? Nah, Georgie just sees which way the wind is blowing.
George Will must have been in a coma for the past two decades, during which time the GOP became Hezbojeezus, the Party of Gawd.
He, as he conveniently forgets, participated in the process of welcoming the goobers into the party through a number of scolding editorial rants aimed at those now demonized as "secular progressives" (although I'm not sure he ever used that exact phrase).
Mr. Will, and his fellow R's, have slept with dogs and they now have fleas, or in this case evangelical christians. One wonders who needs to "grow up".
Yes, we who DON'T believe in the man in the sky, or the tooth fairy etc etc. don't vote our values.
Only those true believers in unprovable crap have the wisdom to have the correct value system.
What a bunch of ego driven maniac they are.
I do like to watch that one guy though who scrunch's his eye real tight and prays ... or is that Preys.
Anyone have an idea why the Religious Right isn’t throwing their support behind Huckabee? Seems like he’d be just their type of candidate.
Because he's not a hater. Dobson and Perkins, et al don't want a Christian as president, they want someone who is willing to suck up to them. Huckabee threatens them because he's a real Christian.
They're saying that the GOP has to have a litmus test. If the party will tolerate someone who is open on abortion, they won't participate in the party.
The last thing they want to do is back Huckabee and have him loose. First of all, that would prove that they're not the king makers they claim to be, and second of all, they'd be obliged to back a pro-choice candidate in the general.
Everyone believes the GOP will lose now. They're going to lose because the country went over a cliff while they had a monopoly on power, not because the religious right is throwing a temper tantrum. But with this strategy, the religious right will be able to claim credit for the defeat.
They'll be able to say, "You lost because you didn't do what we said. So do what we say from here on out."
They call themselves “values voters.” I’ve news for them: 100% of the American electorate are values voters; they vote their values…And this, this, kind of semantic imperialism that they have where they say “we vote values”. Everyone else votes what?
Once a decade George Will says something I completely agree with. He has reached his quota for the '00s. Back to hibernation.
Jerry: Elaine and I were just discussing whether I could admit a man is attractive.
Kramer: Hmm. Yeah. I’ll tell you who is an attractive man: George Will.
Jerry: Really?
Kramer: Yeah. He has clean looks, scrubbed and shampooed and…
Elaine: He’s smart.
Kramer: No, no, I don’t find him all that bright.
I'm sorry but this is the first time I've heard George Will say anything reality-based and it's taken him how long? He's still an *ss no matter how you slice it. I really don't understand what George sees in him except when his panel needs a comment from planet nine. Go sit with the neocons, George.
Paul in LA @ 27:
err, no, I'm not sure that I would ever vote for someone just for "running the country well" hell that was Mussolini's platform, wasn't it? Hillary has plenty of experience and she's the last 'democrat' I would want "running the country"
Imagine for a short time how much worse things would be if Bush were actually competent
With fundamentalist radicals...uh, "social conservatives"...give them an inch and they'll take a mile. They got their Supreme Court extremists (thanks again to Reid and the gang of 14), which we will have to suffer through for several decades. But they won't be happy until they shove their agendas down our throat in every way they can, through further Supreme Court appointments, lower court appointments, and saturating their agenda in the military and judicial department.
So the best thing that could happen would be for "social conservatives" to lose completely in this election, and then lose power and give up on politics. And gain back a sense of humility.
AndrewK @ 14:
We have witnessed the "real conservatives" since the installation of the Bush/Cheney junta in 2001.
Back when James Carville was someone I respected and understood (at least I thought I did), he said the EXACT same thing about the 'values' argument. We all have VALUES, just different ones, and that we should not allow republicans (intentional small 'r' ) to get away with such meaningless phrases like "we have values" or "we were raised with values".
I love that George Will is only noticing the supreme arrogance of the "values voters" label now that they're his political opposition.
Where was his insistence that "we all have values" four years ago? It was a perfectly acceptable description back then. Hmm. Funny how.
No one showed up to their Faith Forum, so they're going to take their toys and go home.
Seriously, this is exactly why the Democrats need to stop all that religiosity and just talk about the crucial issues that are facing this country. Stop praying for Bush (!!) and putting faith in every single part of your life (or whatever it was Obama said) and let's just uphold the Constitution and the laws in this country. That would be a bigger miracle than turning water into wine.
Space Coyote @ 6:
===================
If Hillary gets the nomination I'm just gonna write this guy's name in... *sad sigh*
Cat Atomic @ 43:
Amen. George Will is a total twerp.
Indigowatcher @ 45:
That would be supremely stupid. Hillary is certainly not perfect, but this country is in a mess and it's only going to get worse by 2008. Are you going to be like the "Social Conservatives" and go off and pout if you don't get exactly what you want in the nomination?
She'll have experience, and Bill, to get this country back on track. Having Bill Clinton serve as ambassador to the world to set us right with the rest of the world would be invaluable to the country. He is still wildly popular in other countries.
Any of these other candidates is hardly up to the job of correcting the damage Bush has done. You get one of these inexperienced Dems in and they can't cut it and then we got another eight years of Republicans. If Hillary got in and had a successful administration, then Gore could come back and win by a landslide. He's the only other possible candidate who could clean up Bush's mess.
Think of it, sixteen years of Democratic government!
I too find this to be the one intelligent thing Will has said this decade. So spot on, in fact, its hard to believe this came out of the same mouth that intoned during the Elian Gonzales fest we had 7 years ago that, those who thought Elian should be returned to his one remaining parent had made "a fetish out of fatherhood." The man has proved himself not much more than a tool, again and again. Makes me wonder what sort of marching orders they're passing out from the RNC these days.
I too will support Hillary to the limit if she is nominated. I won't like it and will hold her feet to the fire if we don't get results on Iraq and National Health Insurance, but yes, the Dem nominee gets my unwavering support this time around.
And yes, I signed the DraftGore petition. The man's only sin for the last ten years has been to be right about......everything.
The Right.
A house of cards divided?
Can't these nuts understand, they are as valued full price day old bread.
If they are the ron paul socon they remain racist.
Actually, this week on To The Point - a radio news show originating at KCRW in Los Angeles, podcasts available - a spokesperson from advocacy group Faith2Action was stating that Huckabee actually IS being supported by Values Voters, that as the values of the mainstream candidates become more well-known and evangelicals - "the biggest and most important voting bloc in America!" - become more familiar with those candidates' iniquities, they will begin to support Huckabee in larger numbers.
It's a good show on the Republican primary, I suggest taking an hour to take a listen:
http://www.kcrw.com/news/programs/tp/tp071003will_giuliani_divide
WOW! George Will, knee-jerk conservative apologist extroidinaire, admitting that the term "values voter" is an empty, pointless phrase. Conservatives have been getting elected with that phrase since the 90's when they gained control of congress.
The knives are out. Pretty pathetic behaviour by conservatives all around. The religious zealots are threatening to take their ball and go home. George Will is upset and lashes back, mistakenly admitting that they've been getting elected upon an empty, cheap political phrase and that their core values are not necessarily legitimate.
Also very important to note here. A conservative like George Will admitting that everyone votes their values sounds suspiciously like MORAL RELATIVISM!!! BOOYAH!
The conservative movement doesn't know which end is up. They've sold their souls for power and are now facing the consequences.
1968 was the year that democracy came under full attack.....
Starting with the return of Nixon. who revealed the true voice of hate (even louder than Goldwater because he spoke from the political pulpit) in America. He embraced the divisiveness and mastered it like a true veteran of the McCarthy Era, which he was.
Nixon expanded domestic surveillance and government secrecy, the very model for what we have today.
If Goldwater signaled the revival of the right wing, Nixon was the Sergeant-at-Arms. His evil, mean-spirited paranoia is the emotional model for the bush regime.
If not for a guard discovering a taped-up door jamb, we never would have known how insidious Nixon really was... and would have no basis for comparison in American History to the pure evil we are witnessing in our tumultuous current time.
America still has not learned a lesson, perhaps because we don't feel the loss of the freedoms, because we're too busy making ends meet, watching our children grow, keeping our jobs and worrying about our families and our future.
Even as the appalling truth becomes apparent, America remains paralyzed by shock from 9/11 and hatred for the others of the planet Earth.
Even as we see what the pathetic, unempathetic and sometimes just plain evil men and women in Washington are doing, we can't believe they have the intentions that they demonstrate by their negotiations, votes, public statements and grandstanding.
george will can join bob schieffer as another enabler of the corruption and treason that is modern 'conservatism'. The religious right is just one part of the hateful coalition that has destroyed this democratic republic. The corporations are just trying to distance themselves from their erstwhile allies and cohorts in the genocidal destruction of Iraq and the genocidal follow-up in New Orleans and the gutting of the american government.
the movement that started with nixon (see the histories of rumsfeld and cheney) has finally succeeded. the president is unimpeachable. the country is under monarchical rule.
fuck george will
fuck bob schiefer
2 little
2 late
4 sure
kaT @ 47:
you better look at the clinton record of corporatism and enablement of corporate governance and corruption and government enablement of international corporatist initiatives. It was not democratic government. it was strongarming, triangulating, lying and disenfranchising of the american citizens and workers. the only thing differing them from the repugs is the religious right being allies. Billy runs with the boosh KKKlan, Hillary (and Obama) are endorsed by fux.
please open your eyes.
I won't vote for anyone endorsed by murdoch.
[...] George Will: “100% of the American electorate are values voters; they vote their values… And this, this, kind of semantic imperialism that they have where they say ‘we vote values.’ Everyone else votes what?” [...]
Where was Will when the GOP controlled congress and Bush had his 80% approval after ratings after 911? Now that Bush is at 29% and the GOP has lost both houses of congress Will comes out of his spider hole to tell conservatives to "grow up" because they are one of the main reasons the party is tanking.
Don't get me wrong. I love the circular firing squad within the GOP. Reload wingnuts!!
Will's just ticked off because the reichwingnuts no likee Rudy. Fuck him!
Will: "God hates the right. Jesus is a liberal. Discuss".
Focus On The Fantasy doesn't understand the elefunnies can't have black voters support while the elefunnies are suppressing black votes. George (just now realizing things are going down in flames) Will is terrified about losin' the white evilgelical vote, splittin' the elefunnies apart, losin' the people's house for at least the next decade. Now that them elefunnies has sold dey souls, dey got no mo' souls tuh sell. Tried to get god's sheep to follow the elefunnies. Got bit in dey bum. Now George be tryin' tuh run'weh.
Meanwhile, didn't you love Rita Braver on CBS Sunday Morning doing the softball interview with Mrs. Prince Of Darkness, Lynne MYDAUGHTERISADYKE Cheney. Then gently mentioning Rita's husband, a lawyer, got Cheney her book deals?
Rita, love the kneepads girl. No dirt on the skirt. No messy lipstick either.
And finally, Iraq on the front page? Are you kidding? The Princess Diana trial starts soon! Bushie can hide another week.
communist homosexual menace @ 39:
Mussolini's Italy was 90% agricultural, not far different from Roman times.
But my point was not that you, a relatively informed politically-interested person, would vote for BC, but that the COUNTRY would have happily reelected him were it allowed. In other words, they would not have voted their 'values,' they would vote their affections, or their impressions.
The idea that most people vote values is BULLSHIT. Vote this, George. Most people vote for someone they think can do the job better than the other person, and 'values' is quite a bit down the list. The more fringe value-oriented you are, the more fringe maniac you vote, it appears. Anyone voting 'values' for Boy Wonder didn't have any values or any intelligence, and mainly they liked how he lied to them.
BaScOmBe @ 53:
Boy Wonder has been impeached in the court of public opinion to the point that the party that foisted him on us is going into the toilet. In that regard he's the gift that keeps on giving.
As for 'monarchy,' no, Bush is not a monarch. He's more of slug than a butterfly.
I can't get over Will telling ANYONE else to "grow up" - that's really very funny.
*
Paul in LA @ 61:
One way to rid yourselves of slugs in the garden is to put out little saucers of beer - they fall into them and drown. Bush is more like a slug than you probably knew.
*
So George Will thinks religious conservatives should "grow up"?
Wasn't this what Cal Thomas has told us is already happening?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/the_maturing_of_the_ri...
Sorry ...again. I don't play this semantics game. The group being discussed are the "evangelical religious radicals". Call them what the f*ck they are!! They are NOT the "social conservatives". That makes them sound "all holy and reserved". These nutballs are the religious lunatics that would strap explosives to their chests and walk into Planned Parenthood clinics, take us to far away places to kill innocent men, women and children...SIMPLE BECAUSE they don't believe in "their god".
This is total and absolute BULLSHIT. This group can be labels "religious loons"...not more.
Anyone have an idea why the Religious Right isn’t throwing their support behind Huckabee?
They think a huckabee is some kind of twisted, gay sex act.
Getting conservatives to "grow up" would be like teaching George Will to throw a curve ball. Theoretically possible, but realistically, it ain't gonna happen.
Religious Right (who apparently renamed themselves Social Conservatives) to run a third-party candidate as a result of their distaste for the all-but-presumed Republican candidacy of Rudy Giuliani. ----> My gut tells me, somehow, this can't look good. (tee hee)
Maybe right after Bushes little "comma", it will read, and he single-handedly made the GOP a permanent minority for the next 200 years. Woo-hoo.
Retired Navy @ 29:
Exxxactly.
Personally, I think the "values voters' lack of support for Huckabee speaks volumes for him. I'm actually very impressed by him. Of course there are things I disagree with him about--I'm not religious, to start with. But he seems to be be a genuinely thoughtful, kind, and intelligent person--the very things the narrow minded, bigoted right wingers hate.
And by the way, it's crazy old McCain that wants to bomb Iran, not Huckabee.
Paul in LA @ 62:
public opinion don't matter. blackwater does.
please disprove the 'monarchy'; include reid and pelosi in your analysis.
george will is a joke. david brooks in sheeps clothing....
the guy thinks he's more important than he really is.
Those Dobson and friends folks aren't "social conservatives", they're an adjunct of the right wing Republican machine who USE religion as a political tool to take advantage of religious people. They are shameless political hacks with no soul or morals.
Poor Georgie boy, he wants with business criminal friends back in control of the GOP.
I don't know why they are not supporting Huckabee, but I do think the religious right is given far too much attention and power. I think they are dangerous folk in their narrow thinking.
I’ve news for them: 100% of the American electorate are values voters; they vote their values…And this, this, kind of semantic imperialism that they have where they say “we vote values”. Everyone else votes what?
No shit, George. Fundamentalist Christians have always been a bunch of arrogant pricks. What else do you expect from a group of nutjobs who thinks they are the only human beings on earth that know the mind of God on account of their born-again relationship with Jesus Christ? All the rest of us are - at best - not doing God's will. And at worst going against God's will. As far as growing up, that's asking a bit much from people who still have not outgrown talking to their imaginary friend.
EconAtheist @ 4:
It's funny to see George Will, and other corporatists, whine and complain about this group now that they are becoming an obvious liability. For years, they have exploited the "Social Conservative" vote because its served their purposes. But now the gloves are coming off as Dobson et al. are proving to be more of a hindrance than a help.
EconAtheist @ 4:
I was thinking the same thing.
What the hell are value voters?
Alex @ 37:
I agree. The religious freaks will sacrifice the next election to prove to the Rethugs that they are the tail that wags the dog and cannot be ignored. The rabid rapture right has lost much of their political power and party influence and they will do anything to regain it, even if it means losing the next election for their stinky immoral party.
Oh, and Ron Paul sucks.
AndrewK @ 14:
AndrewK @ 14:
motorfingaz @ 42: