Dan Abrams: Did Democrats Know About Secret Torture Methods Or Not?
By Logan Murphy Monday Oct 08, 2007 3:48pm
On Monday night, host Dan Abrams spoke with Rep. Adam Smith (D-WA), Pat Buchanan and Air America Radio host Randi Rhodes about the recently revealed Bush DoJ secret 2004 torture memos. The Democratic leadership, including Nancy Pelosi, Jane Harman and Jay Rockefeller, have all denied having seen the secret memos, but admit they were briefed on operational details (whatever that means) which leads Abrams asks the question -- did the Democrats know more about Bush's torture techniques than they were letting on, and if so, why didn't they speak out sooner?
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Abrams and Buchanan essentially try to turn this around and blame the Democrats, concluding they MUST have known about the torture techniques in the program, labeling them as hypocrites for not speaking out about what they knew. Unbelievable. There's so much misinformation and misdirection being thrown about. So even though the Democratic leadership have spoken out (Randi Rhodes brings up Senator Rockefeller's concerns about the program), just because Bush said they were fully briefed must mean they were...and we all know how forthcoming this administration has been. Buchanan seems less disturbed by the notion of our country torturing people (watch him throw out Jack Bauer hypotheticals--including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who confessed to just about everything under the sun while being tortured) than trying to find a way to pin it on the Democratic majority in Congress.
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Well, even if they didn't know about it, they know now. So what are the Dems gonna do about the ongoing Torture?
Nothing. Because knee jerk Liberals will keep voting for them.
Peace.
you know the more people that watch these pricks, the better it looks for them. Just turn it off and walk away.
Operational Details? Screw that.
DID THEY SEE THE MEMOS OR DIDN'T THEY?
I remember hearing that the congressmen were not allowed to ask questions, or take notes> They just "got briefed", talked at, not to.
Double talk=bullshitting
Didja' hear Bush's latest justification: CLAIMS CIA INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES NO WORSE THAN HIS ‘SKULL AND BONES’ INITIATION
One has to wonder how many death threats, etc... have been made to lawmakers if they were to ever stand up to the radical extremists who threaten our nation.
Randi came off really poorly. Smith came off pretty good. Buchanan is a bonehead, but we all know that. Pelosi et al look REALLY BAD. In fact, she has A LOT of serious clarficiation to make. she needs to say:
I was NOT briefed on interrogation techniques that we now consider torture (waterboarding, etc.)
Anything ANYTHING less than that will come off as pure and utter hypocrisy.
Dollars for donuts, she knew. I have NO faith in the Dems - they are just the friendly wing of the corporate party.
I see that they never fail to disappoint me as far as finding ways to try and pin the blame on everything bad in the country on Democrats and trying to absolve the LEADER OF THE FREE ****ING WORLD (and how depressing is that idea?) of any blame.
I watched part of the interview on Faux with Pelosi this last Sunday, and these guys may have a point. Chris Wallace asked her directly if she knew about this program, and all he got back was one hell of a waffle. She did not totally deny that she knew nothing of this, which then begs the question, "Did Dems know about this and do nothing about it?" Even if they were under some Shrub exec order not to talk about this, when has his admin ever kept a good secret when it could hurt the other side.
There are whistleblower protections out there. Have you heard of any more legal action against the NY Times and their sources on outings against the admin?
From Pelosi's reaction to the question, it tells me that she was willing to go along while knowing at least something about it, and that is more troubling than the revelation of the memo itself.
Did, or as said -didn't know but, knowing now bring home the question.
Fess up it's a lagit question.
Kind of like the fart in the elavator.
"wasn't me"!
yet, we all live with the stink.
I'm glad they had the nerve to pull out randi rhodes. she's brilliant.
Lets face it. We all KNEW bush was still torturing. The rape and torture act they passed last year said it would be up to the president to decide what torture was and when to use it without oversight. It was to be at his descretion and secret. So, did they actually see documents? Probably not. Stupid as bush is I seriously doubt it was written down anywhere.
dothehop @ 11:
dems who were informed were also sworn to secrecy for details and face jailing by king george if they reveal any information they were given. rockefeller's letters are proof that some dems knew, but were not allowed to tell.
How can any sane human being make sense out the convoluted, tortuous, contradictory, undecipherable horseshit spewing from the mouth of Democrats and Republicans on the torture issue? Politicians on both sides of the aisle knew about head slapping, sleep deprivation and water boarding. Now that the memos have been made public, the scumbag politicos have plunged into full cover-my-ass mode. The cowardly strategy of self exoneration by obfuscation is in full effect.
foolme1ns @ 3:
exactomundo
Well, none of this matters any more. Today the Supreme Court has officially authorized torture by refusing to hear the Khaled el-Masri case, closing it by agreeing that anything the government knows falls under the protection of "state secrets". http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21205942/
Bush can torture anybody he wants, whenever he wants, without ever having to tell anybody or pay any penalty. Everything he does is a state secret, and this has been his defense all along in refusing to cooperate with investigations. The Congress and the courts are now without any power to control Bush at all.
The Supreme Court of the United has give the president of the United States a legal right to torture people. It is the end of America.
Randi said on her show today that she would not now have a show on MSNBC so long as Dan is there. She doesn't like him and after he made Savid Shuster apologize for something he was not wrong on -- I have little respect for him.
Randi also said since Bush has lied to her (and all Americans) but her congress persons have not - she beleives her congress people.
Well, they've got a point though. We're still torturing and I haven't seen a vote in the house or the senate to try to stop it. Let's have a clear vote and see who's for torture and who isn't. For all their talk, the Dems haven't done much. Pelosi might have spoken loud right after the elections ("Mr. President, there is a new Congress in town") but actions speak louder than words, and I don't see much difference between the policies put in place before and after this Congress. They're still torturing. Oh, and we're still in Iraq, they're still kidnapping people (habeas corpus?), they're still using mercenaries that don't answer to the the law, they're still spying on citizens...
"I don't apologize for torturing a terrorist bastard if he has info about a hidden nuclear device in a major US city" _ Jack Bauer
If the Democrats saw the memos, then why is the Whitehouse objecting to producing them now? There shouldn't be any objection to showing them something they've already seen.
Randi looks much more attractive than she did years ago. She used to be a frumpy broad. Now she has beautiful hair and a radiant complexion. The Randi Rhodes Show is a financial success on Air America and she looks the part. Is she single?
mrogi @ 24:
Maybe you should tell her what a "frumpy broad" she used to be and win her heart.
OK, back to the friggin' topic?
Seems to me that the Dems in Congress are trying to to be sneaky here. They say they were briefed but hadn't seen the legal justification for it. What?? I don't know why they didn't try to get some clarification on this. Haul some ass up to Congress and find out. We (dems) seem to be on the loosing of this. I dunno. Disgraceful.
BaScOmBe @ 15:
That means that they couldn't even tell other members of Congress. That also means that they couldn't introduce legislation based on that knowledge because they couldn't use the knowledge they have to argue in favor of the legislation. Even a hypothetical could get them in a lotta trouble..
I will stress that there is an obligation by any and all in our Congress to uphold the law, even if it means revealing so-called state secrets. The Shrub could probably make smaller people disappear, but our Congress would be a lot tougher case. Even if you were to be labeled a pariah by the right wingers, there is still an obligation to do the right thing if you truly believe in the rule of law. This violation, and if they knew about it, is more than grounds for impeachment, and yet they have done nothing in that direction. In my view, this makes the Dems on our side no better than the Bush-Dog's.
I would give my savings to see Bush & Cheney Tortured into admitting what they've done.
Another brilliant move by the Repugs.
Now were going to spend days talking about this.
In the Demo's attempt to 'look tough' voting for $150 billion for the war, approving that damn FISA, etc. etc., they look spinless to us trying to support them.
The Repug's smell blood in the water, the Demo's are really falling apart trying to lead and act tough. Grow a pair.... and do what we asked you to do!
Did they purposefully make Ms Rhodes look bad with a crappy makeup job and crappy lighting? [I don't even care for her radio program but it looks like they did to me.]
Like has been said already, everybody knew that Bush was still using torture, as if he was going to stop because some people asked him nicely to stop. Tyrants don't do things they don't want to do without being forced.
spinless =spinEless, sorry
Ben @ 26:
It could mean that they weren't actually shown the memos, but were verbally given an edited version of what the memos were supposed to be about without specifics. If Gonzo did that briefing, you can imagine how complete that briefing was.
Here's a "24" analogy. If you had 15 seconds to diffuse a bomb and Bush told you to cut the red wire and Senator Rockefeller said the blue wire, who would you believe? (Based on their reputation)
The point is, the Democrats, almost to a person, are STILL terrified to be called "Weak on terror!"....
Funny, the only ones who seem immune to this are the members of the congressional black caucus, I think, because their constituents know Bush and the Republicans are TOTALLY full of Sh*T and aren't patriots, but only care about Profits and Oil, and could give a rat's ass about the soldiers.
But, except for those folks, it still seems most of the democrats are paralyzed if ANY Republics just whisper "terror" at them, they will sign any blank check Bush wants?
And, that's SO FRICKING STUPID, because the VAST majority of the population has figured out, the Republics are incompetent liars, and are incapable of keeping them safe, but better at wrapping themselves in the flag.....
I just don't get it. Except for the Pundits/MSM and the 30% wing nut base, everyone else has figured this out...
Get a clue, Congressional Democrats!
dothehop @ 28:
There is a law against revealing State Secrets, so which law do they uphold?
TR Daggett @ 34:
Isn't the answer to that riddle that you ask Rockefeller what answer Bush would give (or vice versa) and then do the opposite?
Perhaps this is why Pelosi continued to say Impeachment is off the table. Doesn't surprise me one bit. Again I say, get rid of EVERYONE holding office in Congress the next ten election cycles no matter what - then we won't have to worry about homesteading, lobbyists and enormous pork projects attached to bills.
mrogi @ 24:
she has this "Ann Coulter" look...
TR Daggett @ 34:
If Cheney was in the room with the three of us, I'd cut BOTH wires! Please call Nancy for me.
I blame all (90%) Americans in their complicity or complacency in the torture issue.
TR Daggett @ 34:
If you had 15 seconds to diffuse a bomb before it blew up your house and Bush told you to cut the red wire and Bin Laden said the blue wire, who would you believe?
If you had 15 seconds to diffuse a bomb before it blew up your house and you had a suspect who might know if was the blue wire or the red wire, would you waterboard him to get the information? What if someone you loved was in the house?
Of course Bush provided the information to the dems. Why would they spend all this time against, then suddenly, be for the expansion. Neither party represents you.
enor @ 40:
Of course, I am not suggesting I would really do that.... I was only answering the puzzle.
Would somebody tell these whackos that "24" is fiction?
"Isn’t the answer to that riddle that you ask Rockefeller what answer Bush would give (or vice versa) and then do the opposite?"
Forgive me for being a bit confused* by your question, but yes (I think).
I'd do the opposite of whatever Bush said.
* Unfortunately two months ago the drug company Novartis, who had been providing me with a $5 co-pay card so that I could afford** my Ritalin suddenly without any warning stopped honoring it (thanks to the 'Medicare Part-D' gift to the pharmaceutical industry), so as the days go on without it I'm getting flakier by the minute. Unfortunately my blogging/commenting is suffering from it.
It's funny (sort of), sometimes I re-read my comments and wonder what the heck I was trying to say, but I won't give up, that's for sure.
** $375 per 100 now. Not possible for someone living on a single Social Security Disability payment each month.
But Pat Buchanan notwithstanding - it sure looks bad for the Democrats. Very bad. I found Nancy Pelosi's answer to Wallace totally weak and somewhat disturbing. What are they talking about? This isn't a question of turning it around: everybody knows who the torturers are. But the Dems need to come clean about this and fast. Otherwise there's no way anybody will ever listen to them on torture.
Was Nancy blinking when she was asked and answering? Because excessive blinking is a sign of panic/lying.
Wait...this is Nancy we're talking about. She's always blinking about something.
I guess Reid/Pelosi will issue a strong statement. Again.
http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/world/10159315.html
"enor", I agree with that!
44
rmjbrown, I hope you weren't aiming that at me. I feel the same way.
Randi's way off base here. She seems to actually not want to know if they signed off on "torture"? That's amazing to me.
"We don't need to know that"? WTF???
Can someone remind me of the last time Pat Buchanan said anything USEFUL or Constructive?
TR Daggett @ 45:
If Nancy Pelosi and Jane Harman knew about the torture but didn't speak up is she guilty of this?....
How Many Congress Members Are Guilty of Misprision of Felony?
By David Swanson from afterdowningstreet dot org
"Misprision of Felony" is a serious...offense i(n) United States Federal law. Under the United States Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter I, Section 4 [1] "Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both."
***How would this not also apply to the 17 congress members who bothered to read the pre-war National Intelligence Estimate and kept quiet and in some cases voted to authorize war, or every single member of our government and/or its mercenaries who has failed to blow a whistle on torture?
Carmikl @ 36:
I believe that when the secret violates the Constitution or international treaties signed by the US, it would then fall under whistle-blower conditions. Like I said in an earlier post, have you heard anything coming down against those that leaked the warrantless eavesdropping to the NYT? That was a state secret, yet it violated a law that superceded the "State Secret".
That was a weird segment...Randi on torture ? Who cares...
Pat Buchanan is an asshole. The notion that terrorists are the world biggest threat is a joke. Buchanan always shows up and can't let others speak because his version is weak and indefensible.
Not only does he insist that torture is ok, he also needs to make Dems responsible for it. Typical right wing sicko that is in desperate flight from reality combined with a distorted view of reality and a pension for not listening.
Jeebus
If you have questions for Pelosi and Harmon, why not ask them instead of asking 3 people who have no frickin' idea what they know or don't know?
ek
Oh for crying out loud, would they stop living in the "24" world already? IT'S A GD TV SHOW. Gaaaaaaaahhhhhd I wish they'd pay a fraction of the attention to real actual news, or at least get to the meat of the issue using what they have.
If the episode of "24" on an idiot Repugs' local Fox affiliate was a re-run, but another Fox affiliate on his 400-channel all inclusive Sofa Slob cable package was showing the latest episode set to begin in fifteen minutes, and only that nincompoop's child could remember the station number on the remote but was trying to extort money or privileges for the information, what methods of torture should the doofus use to get the information out of his own kid:
(a) waterboarding
(b) simulated drowning
(c) beating around the head and ears
(d) abuse of the child's pet until s/he talked
El.Kabong @ 58:
They did ask Pelosi and she did the Blinkie-eyed, Tenderloin Two Step. Look, we can't let "our" side get away with the same crap we accuse "their" side of doing.
Crooks are crooks! Guillotine!
What a weasel! Abrams implies that it is worse if the Democrats knew about torture and didn't stop it than it is that Bush continued the torture while saying he didn't. Randi Rhodes had the best comment (altho Abrams and Buchanan buried it) 'Everybody knows the president is a liar.'
And about Pat Buchanan - I heard Ergil Kroh speak about the Watergate years and his take on Buchanan was, 'A great guy to get drunk with, but he's a screaming loon.' I always say Buchanan's the best arguement ever against a Jesuit education.
Dan Abrams has been assigned by MSNBC to become its conservative voice. Conservative Joe Scarborough has moved permanently to MSNBC mornings (the old Imus spot), Tucker Carlson, whatever he is, is sinking fast, Olberman and Matthews are liberals, and Dan, having flubbed the General Managers duties, returns to the air for one last chance (maybe Rita Cosby will have some good advice for him).
So reborn as Dan O'Reily Abrams is trying to give MSNBC some conservative ratings because they have Fox envy. Its all a plan.
scruzman @ 39:
get your eyeglass prescription changed!
how come rockefeller hasn't followed up with the robb-silberman commission report on
They were "briefed".
They were constrained from speaking about it...or, what's it called?
"Leaking".
So they filed dated letters of protest after the briefing.
Study up, kids.
sorry, my question is, why hasn't rockefeller followed up on the robb-silberman report on the reasons for war with iraq. roberts is no longer the chairman and rockefeller used to push for a more thorough investigation into the reasons for war but was held up by roberts. rockefeller is chairman now and we still don't get answers.
Muzzled and marginalized, Randi was squeezed to the right edge of the screen by flabby blowhard Buchanan, with barely a word in edgewise before every word was talked over and turned down. Talked over. Drowned out. Interrupted. Turned off. Randi was the voice of a generation.
"Everyone knows Bush is a liar. . . ."
"Imperial...."
If only there were some way to find out what they know ...
surgethis @ 57:
Interesting.
Where can I pick up my pension for not listening?
Let's see, everyone in the world now knows that we use waterboarding, head slapping, exposure to extreme heat and cold, loud rock music and starvation on our prisoners. It's not a secret.That we use those techniques has been published in every major newspaper in the world. It's not a secret. Al-Qaeda can train it's members to resist those techniques if they want because it's not a secret. So why can't the Bush Administration just admit that they do these things since it's not a secret? Someone should tell Dana Perino it's not a secret.
Randi Rhodes made the ONE salient point of this whole discussion:
"Nobody believes ANYTHING this president has to say."
Again, she gows right to the heart of the matter.
If Pelosi, Harman and Rockefeller knew about it and approved it then they're as guilty as Bush and they're all war criminals. Who cares what party they're from? I'm just as willing to see Dems prosecuted if they're complicit in this bullshit.
I would rather pull my teeth out with a pair of pliers than watch Pat Buchanan...
What a kanard this is... Pelosi and Harman might have said that they were "fully briefed" simply because they were lied to.
So what if they did? Like they had any power in 2000 Congress.
Cowboy Bob in Austin @ 71:
Amen.
I wish MSNBC had shown more of Randi's cleavage. Her knockers are world class.
Don't forget one very important fact. To leak secret information is a very serious Federal offense REGARDLESS IF YOU ARE A MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND REGARDLESS HOW YOU PERSONALLY FEEL ABOUT THE INFORMATION AT HAND. The question IS NOT WHO KNEW. The question is who APPROVED. The ability to express descent in a meeting does not equate to the ability to affect policy and more to the point a briefing is not the type of meeting where opinion is solicited!
The white house lied to Congress during those "briefings."
The white house lied to the American People by issueing their "memos" that justified torture after the fact.
The white house is lying to us now by trying to portray the original briefings to Congress as being complete.
FOX NOISE and Buchanen are cooking a Red Herring in their efforts to "scandalize" the Democrats' position.
and... GOD BLESS RANDI RHODES. I listen to her on the radio on my way home from work just about every day. SHE KICKS ASS EVERY DAY.
Bingo!
Randi "That doesn't matter"
It doesn't matter that the Democrats knew about the torture??????
That is tantamount to saying that the torture doesn't matter, it is the image of the torture that matters. Of course it MATTERS that the Democrats knew about it, just as much as it matters that the torture happened (and happens). The enablers share the responsibility in equal parts.
These "liberals" like Randi are part of the problem, because they enable the Bush-enabling Democrats. It matters because to change the policy, it has to be challenged. The democrats ABSOLUTELY knew about the torture, yet have done nothing to stop it. In fact, they have allowed its expansion. They are complicit in Bush´s crime, in America´s crime.
In reality these Democrats are all-in with the Bush agenda, they only cast a facade to their constituents and to the American People that they are in "opposition".
These Democratic "leaders" are pure sycophantic spineless oportunistic Republican bootlickers. If we had real opposition, we would have a working democracy and a society with hope for the future. As it stands the light of hope for some kind of future is about to be put out.
As a society we are to blame for the lazy mindset that refuses to challenge our leaders from whichever party and assumes and reassures when we should be questioning and challenging.
What unbelievable shit comes out of Nancy Pelosi´s mouth. "Were you fully briefed?" "I wasn´t breifed on the breifing" WTF is that supposed to mean??????? How did this sack of shit become the Democratic "leader"???????
rmjbrown @ 44:
So is their so'called religion (I'm not calling religion fiction, but the religion that tells you there is such a thing as a pro-life, pro-war anti-gun-control christian that is a work of fiction)
actually I have to give credit to Janeane Garafalo for the pro-life, pro-war anti-gun-control christian comment.
I guess it's the new Rethuglian tactic, make the Democrats look bad by accusing them of the crimes Bush and Cheney actually committed. No doubt, all the dunderheaded conservatives will seize on this to try to redeem their party.
Really, when I watch this stuff i just think, there really does need to be a Red and a Blue America. Such diametrically opposed people can never coexist peacefully.
d @ 78:
dissent, not descent. Sorry, douldn't resist.
Randi said exactly what needed to be said, it makes no difference at all who knew what at this point they all know this shit is wrong and yet they continue on with this consistent distraction of who know what, instead of fixing the God dame problem.
It is so unfortunate that we don't have real people in media, today of all times and if we think we are sick as hell of it now. Just wait for the 2008 election, where it will be none stop bullshit in a cheap attempt to have democrats not vote .
We are going to fool the hell out of them though because we have got to pick all of these bastards off, a little at a time and starting with the most evil of all on down to the lesser of them.
.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT DEMOCRATS V. REPUBLICANS
THIS IS ABOUT THE AMERICAN VALUE SYSTEM!
IS TORTURE EVER AN AMERICAN PRINCIPLE?
.
Don Davis @ 7:
I can see the panties and the hand cuffs...
Just not the canines or the rape aspect of it.
.
.
And finally,
It appears as if Dan and Pat were arguing the following point:
"Because the Democrats appear to be just as hypocritical as the Republicans in the secrecy and the handling of information concerning programs such as torture and warrentless surveillance of American citizens that this then, somehow, justifies the President's ability to authorize the use of torture and warrantless surveillance of American citizens."
Or am I reading too much into it.
GOT PRINCIPLES?
.
What a goddam tool Abrams is. Bush lied, Gonzales tied, all the Bushies lied, and they authorized torture. But Abrams and Buchanan want to blame the Dems.