NBC's Law & Order SVU Takes On Iraq Contractors, Torture - And Gets It Right
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On Monday, NBC aired a powerful episode of Law & Order SVU in which a murder investigation uncovers a plot that ends in the arrest and trial of an American doctor who worked as a torture adviser for a private company in Iraq. Thanks to the SVU team, the doctor has her medical license suspended, which eventually will ruin her career.
In a perfect world, we would be seeing these kinds of trials take place today, but for now we'll just have to hold out hope that someone in power, who still possesses a conscience, will make it happen. NBC did a fantastic job of telling the truth about torture, its effects on its victims and casting shame on those who engage in it or condone it in any way. Major kudos to NBC for getting it right...
It was a riveting episode. Having Elizabeth McGovern play the doctor, and making her character seem so guilt-less in the first half-hour, was brilliant.
One note: it aired on Tuesday, not Monday.
The sad thing is all the crazy right-wingers this brought out of the woodwork on the NBC website...It's really disturbing when you see some of the things they said.
The week before part of the episode was about the Patriot Act. The Feds were using it to block the interrogation of a rape suspect, and Novak (the DA) said, "The Patriot Act? That convoluted piece of legislation isn't worth the paper it's written on." You guys should put up that clip too.
Some of the GOP Candidates have their own LAW AND ORDER SCRIPT TO ‘KNOCK OFF’ FRED THOMPSON
Sounds like an okay episode.
But will they also ever do an episode where they go after some Islamic extremists, terrorists, or terror cells?
Just to add a little balance?
Sorry I missed the episode, but if anyone "got it right," it was Dick Wolf Productions, not NBC. Let's give a little credit where credit is due.
Very good. Glad the doctor got nailed at the end. Funny how TV imitates life especially in the Law and Order SVU episode. Cheers to Dick Wolf Productions.
give the people
what they understand
television shows
heh...
Too bad. NBC aired this episode of SVU just so it doesn't have to up the ante on it's news shows. The old "give it to them in a primetime fictional setting, so we don't have to give it to them in real life" I am losing hope daily, but the article in the latest Mother Jones compares this next 2008 election to the time right before FDR became president and ushered in a era of democratic controlled government, so there is hope.
Well - this ought to have the effect of labeling the Producers and directors as traitors and left wing loonies. It seems nearly every thoughtful group is thinking clearly except our governing bodies.
How the hell do we stop this?
I am so glad they did this episode, as that they gave the reality of how stress positions and other techniques affect survivors for the rest of their lives.
My husband was a Vietnam vet and POW, who was tortured by his North Vietnames captors. He siffered from his injuries for over thirty years, until his fatal heart attack two years ago.
When he got back, he had to have all of his toenails removed three times, to try to get rid of the bamboo poisoning fromt heir attempts to extract information. It didn't work he still had the infection when he died. He never got a full night's sleep, for the rest of his life. His screams still haunt my sleep. There was never enough food in the house to fill the hole left by the deprivation he had suffered. Those are only some of the effects.
ALL AMERICANS need to stand up NOW and say:
NOT IN MY NAME!
NEVER IN MY NAME!
and KEEP saying it until the torture stops.
Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is doing it to whom.
For Dan,
Heather
A very powerful clip. The best quote was "you took the oath for times like these" That is absolutely right on the money! That's righ doc, these are the times you took the oath for. Thanks NBC.
However, the guy that did the actual torture got out of the country and was assisted by the "mercenary" company that he worked for. The poor girl that got murdered, got little justice.
{deleted - you stumbled in, now stumble back out and stay out.]
Ahhh television ......... must be fantasy the great and all wonderful and powerful US wouldn't do anything like this ......
How does it feel knowing that your tax dollars are not only paying for this to be done to innocent people (as you read this), but that some of the people doing it who are US citizens are enjoying it ? ...........
I think that was very well done in its attempt to be balanced, as it showed the passion on both sides of the argument.
The doctor is able to work without conscience because she passionately believes that her participation is invaluable in helping to gather intelligence. (But apparently she never has spoken to those who interrogated Nazis and gained information without resorting to such tactics.)
I greatly appreciate the information regarding stress positions, dropping of body temperature, and the potential for injury/death to those upon whom it is inflicted. But notice the doc said no to waterboarding. Who made the decision to approve that for the script, because I think we can fairly well assume that waterboarding was used. Nor did they mention dogs, humiliating sexual techniques, etc.
Some of the courtroom theatrics were ridiculous. The doctor would never have been allowed to speak for that long on the stand without being admonished by the judge, as this would be obviously a high profile trial. That explanation for her behavior would have been brought forth by her attorney, anyway, not in the manner as it was done.
The scene where victims of brutal interrogation speak of their experiences, was diminished by the overly dramatic, maudlin background music.
John Wison @ 9:
Seems our means to do so are fewer and fewer everday...soon there will be but one option available, and it won't be pretty...
I hate to be so blunt but NBC is a unit of General Electric. One of the giants of the defense industry.
I missed that episode (Red Sox) and I look forward to seeing it. But the episode they did on "animal rights terrorists" could have been produced by FOX. It was so biased against rights activists, portraying the group as violent, murderous unthinking terrorists. Repulsive.
While I am not an animal rights activist, I both sympathize with, and admire their dedication. I truly believe they are more aware and enlightened about the creatures we share the earth with and the portrayal on Law and Order (one of my favorite shows, and I will welcome Fred back when he bombs out of the primaries) was outrageous.
CW @ 13:
Then you have just become no better than them. The issue here is that the enemy is being created to support the initial lie.
CW @ 13:
I am not and do not, I constantly turn down trips and work to the US, you couldn't pay me to enter the place.
CW @ 13:
That's how it is.
CW @ 13:
That would take people of courage to act, and in this whole mess the only people I've see do anything but talk are a few girls wearing pink.
CW @ 13:
The US administration would brand anyone of that level of courage a traitor.
RE: above post
By the way, I think the FBI pursues PETA and ELF because they are too afraid of taking on REAL terrorists.
Torture has long been deemed useless when extracting information. Just because I beat the shit out of you it is not guaranteed that you will tell me the truth.
I could spend hours beating the crap out of you, or simply waste 5 minutes until the truth serum kicks in. It is both, cheaper and far less messy... plus more reliable.
Torture however is a great idea for sadist. And there is where the real problem lies....
Dr. Who: Even the idea of using truth serum on a suspect gives me the serious hebbie-jeebies. I'm a firm believer of "you have the right to remain silent".
Dr. Who @ 21:
And you will be hated for it and generate a "valid" revenge path.
Dr. Who @ 21:
Old school twats think it's some kind of deterrent as well.
Fear causes the lowering to a level beneath greatness.
The difficult path is the high road....but worth the effort in the end.
OT, but worthy (IMHO):
Today in Bushistory:
2001: Busholini signed the USA Patriot Act
2006: Busholini signed a measure authiorizing 700 miles of new fencing along the US-Mexico border.
JerryM @ 19:
You are correct for the most part, in combat you have to kill just like the other guy. There is no "nice", or "humane way" to do it. But what is this "initial lie" you refer too, and when did it happen? Was it before the recent invasion of Iraq? Maybe it was before 9-11, or the bombing of the USS Cole, or the Embassy bombings in Africa, or the 1st WTC bombing, or the bombing or the Marine barracks in Lebanon, or the taking of hostages in Iran, or the Munich bombings,... how far back should I go?
CW
USMC
Chacounne/Heather,
I am so sorry for what you and your husband endured.
Sinto @ 4:
Actually, I'm certain in the L&O pantheon they did... SVU is a special victims unit, you know rape and kidnapping... Sorry, you're wanting the cartoon show of 24.
But I like your apples and oranges mewling attempt for balance (unless it was a snark.) Maybe they can have an utterly fantastic scenario. You know where the lead character cowardly drops all his and his country's principles for false expedience because he magically has 4 out of the five pieces to some neocons greatest bedwetting nightmare/fantasy. The last part of the fantasy is where the lead gets away with it with a slap on the back.
Maybe you just want to see SVU actor Chris Molina torturing some 16 yo girl who might (but he doesn't know for sure so this is just recreation) know where the bomb is because it'll get your GWOT rocks off slothing on your sofa.
Cowards give up their principles in times of stress... unless they never had them in the first place. Then they are just trying to find the next weakest excuse to justify their already present perversions.
NBC will likely get cowardly pants-browning for this from those who think a terrorist lives under their bed or in their closets. Last season on ER they had another similiar instance where a young GI came in dope shopping to help him forget his experience as a detainee translator in Iraq.
hey CW, been there, done that got the medals and the shirt, go check out votevets.org, then come back, you'll see that its more than just following orders,its about participating in the franchise decisions.
BTW, I could have sworn this episode came out like last year???
its not a new thing, it was on the Criminal intent franchise with d'orniforio
Dr. Acula @ 25:
2007: Busholini fails to recognize that border with Mexico is over 2100 miles long...
CW @ 26:
Two time congressional medal of honor recipient and jar head ...
http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
... the military has always been honest in saying that it is defending the american way of life. (Three percent of the world population consuming twenty five percent of the worlds resouces - do the math, its unsustainable) You need to consider what the 'american way of life' means.
The US was started by men standing on the shoulders of power and wealth - europe. No self made men there. Men of priviledge. Men that simply 'took' the bulk of an entire continent as if it were uninhabited or were inhabited by animals. Men that took large sections of the territories of sovereign nations. Men who took the national wealth and resources of other nations. The story hasnt changed. It continues - unabated.
How far back should you go?
... ALL THE WAY.
(unedited)
I loved this episode. I hope they conquer more issues like this this season
haha what happened to that old guy passing out?
CW @ 26:
Not my point at all, that is yours that you have to kill like a terrorist to beat one.
" I personally would do whatever it takes to bring down these terrorists!"
We're your words, murder with out restraint or thought ......... that falls into "whatever" ......
CW @ 26:
Your argument and killing belief supposes the need to kill in the first place, your already half way down the road trying to justify your killing and hate by that of the others, pointless and very flawed, I can see why americans eat up the news about killing anyone they don't like now.
CW @ 26:
That all the bad people are in Iraq (and now Iran) and that anyone who physically attempt to defend their own country from an invasion is an insurgent and should be tortured and killed.
CW @ 26:
You sound like a pathetic Fox reporter ...... you can go back as far as you want as long as you list all that the US has done, how much blood it has on it's hands and what it is guilty of as well .......
As a note, people generally ignore the basic objection to torture - which is two fold. 1) presumption of innocence, without which there is no defense against a government and 2) the value of human dignity, which the interogator would testify they have and swear their subject does not.
Them and Us thinking == perpetual war.
Science makes it clear that it is actually US and US, there are no Thems.
Whatsoever we do to the least of our bretheren...................
Wow. The mainstream media doing responsible journalism? Heaven forbid anyone mentions U.S crimes in the middle east. The Iraq war is usually described as 'a bad idea', or 'a tactical mistake'. The Bush Administration also wants to go into Iran: http://originalbanter.blogspot.com/2007/10/david-barsamian-interview-par...
Very scary.
JerryM, you are generalizing. Most americans dont follow news. Most americans are two paychecks from disaster. From my perspective, I see the typical american as a victim - of a different kind - of the same group, not a supporter. About 25 percent are supporters (Or had you not considered what supreme court appointment of Bush in 2000 and stolen elections mean) Personally, I see Bush etc as serving their own interests and the interests of their class NOT the interests of the US. Etc includes all presidents since Reagan - ALL - a few before.
Since they say this will be the last year for SVU of Law and Order, I hope they have the courage to take on more issues like this. It is a shame. Years ago we would have seen ground breaking stuff. Where a reporter was not afraid of his job if he said anything true, but negative about a RULING administration.
Look at what rove's dirt bag machine did to Dan Rather. Granted Rather rushed the program. If he had more evidence when he came forward they might not have been able to overcome it so quick.
I truly sit and almost cry when I see the piece of shit who stole the white house, twice. He is a disgrace especially to this country. One of the pictures posted on CNN of him standing with two victims looked exactly like the coward had on a bullet proof vest. Even after clearing the poor victims out for five or six miles the sick S.O.B. had to have on a vest. While President Clinton went into the crown, shook hands, gave hugs. AND HE STILL DOES. While this cowardly excuse for a human being cowers behind myraids of secret service and empty space. SEE WHY HE DIDN'T GO TO VIET NAM.
Law and Order has always been really relevant in regards to current events that are happening. I have loved watching the original Law and Order all the way through, because its like watching the news and current events throughout the years.
Yes, how far back shall we go? Let's take the Revolutionary War, where the British were terrorizing us and shelling the hell out of our cities. George Washington admonished his troops not to harm or humiliate the captured British troops lest it brought shame on them and their country. And this was when the country could have been killed in infancy by a near empire. You mean like that founding father you threw out there?
Since you browned-pantsers like to make sad analogies between the GWOT and WWII, our interrogators of Nazi prisoners used mind games and gained their trust and got far more valuable intelligence out of them.
In the writings of Sir Francis Walsingham, advisor and then spymaster of Elizabeth I in England when Catholic plots raged against her and while preparing for the Spanish Armada to smash England, he wrote that torture was a useless tool.
Wow, they got it back then in the 1500's the 1700's and in the 20th century that torture was useless. So it begs the question: are those with the hard-on's willing to toss there's an their country's principles out throw backs to the Dark Ages, stupid cowards so afraid they will implement anything even though it doesn't work, OR LIKE THE IDEA OF TORTURING people.
I'm sorry for your loss Heather and the hell you and your husband was put through. I'd like to see people like CW and all the other pant-browners justify their cowardice for "anything for all costs" in the face of what you and he horrendously had to go through.
Sinto @ 4:
Law and Order strives for believability. So far, despite puffed-up claims about sleeper cells and various and sundry terror-types lurking in your backyard, there have been no cases upon which to base an episode ... unless you want to see ones based on Jose Padilla or Maher Arar.
JerryM @ 14:
That's just a biggoted response, or do you reserve similar comments for the British, Germans, French, Cambodians, Chinese, Spanish ... there is no end to this list.
Sinto @ 4:
Careful, your ass is showing. (Unless that's sarcasm) Those have been done in the past.
As a ex-marine vietnam era, one can have variety of opinions on torture, but sad truth it has been around for all of mankinds history, some elite societies like the USA deny it occurs, only the bad apples do it, but truth is only a human sadist could do torture, it takes a special cold hearted human being too do torture, it was no accident that the Abu Gharib main key players were ex-correctional officers with a history of abusing inmates when they worked in US prison systems...., sadly sadists are like pedophiles, only difference is the victims they seek, and purpose of their joy, the sadists seek employment in law enforcement, corrections, juvenile boot camps [see recent case of 14 year old beat too death], and yes the military has their share of these sick human beings who use cover of their positions too perpetrate their sick pleasure, unfortunately unlike pedophiles who disgust most of us, these sick sadists seek justification by trying too pick their victims as unpopular, unsympathetic individuals, felons, inmates, non-uniformed combatants, suspected terrorists, etc, but sad sick fact is no matter how unsympathetic their victims, they are sick human beings just as sick as a pedophile...., unfortunately until we as a society realize they are sick, inhumane, this will occur....over and over again....
Sinto @ 4:
They've done that, several times.
When you ask questions like this before looking into it for yourself, you really look like a moron, especially if you think a fictional story telling enterprise needs to show balance.
If you are concerned with shit being brought up in the interest of 'balance', you need to start a blog that deals with Fox 'News.'
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/f/f/get_a_brain_morans.jpg
I recall becoming physically ill while watching on TV, as a 14-year old, the testimony of medical doctors during the nuremberg trials.
anon @ 43:
Yeah, Jerry... I'm first-gen American of Scots so I have an affinity with the UK as much as I do with the US, my home country. But, you remember the UK's little involvement in that Empire thingy (how was India?,) or in Biafra or BP's involvement in the overthrow of Mossadeq in Iran, right? You can't say, I live here in ______ and we just got around to stop being assholes to the rest of the world (except for that wee enabling excursion into Iraq with the hated Yanks) and forget your own history. Thatchers still alive buddy. Did you not pay taxes during the 80's, 90's or now?
Please grow up and realize we are on the same side of the argument against torture and war and what [insert lionized country] you live doesn't matter. We should be supporting and helping each other since the goals are the same, not slagging off with a broad brush a country of people who in a majority DIDN'T vote for this guy.
Hmmm, looks like I stirred up a real hornet's nest. But I still have not heard any real solutions to our current dilemma.
If being afraid of the business end of an AK-47, or an IED means I'm a coward, so be it! If drastic measures in drastic times means I'm a "brown-pantser", so be it. If joining the Marines, and voting for Bush Jr. AND Sr. was serving my own interests, so be it! There, are you happy now?
In fact I used to work on Bush Sr.'s helicopter as part of HMX-1. Nice people to work for I felt. By the way, the fellow who bought the first WWII airplane I restored, (L-4 Cub), was with the OSS in WWII. He says they used a little more than just mind games.
I'll check this board tommorrow to see any new posts. I'm going to a Halloween costume party tonight at our local Legion Post. I was going to go as Bill Clinton, (scary), as I have some authentic, White House issue presidential cigars to go with the Bill Clinton mask from Ebay. On second thought, I might dress up as Hillary. (really scary!)
CW
Good episode. Law&Order episodes are like mini-movies. Unlike CSI...unless you like to watch David Caruso mumble and tilt his head for an hour.
Sinto @ 4:
They beat that shit to death in "24". Watch that. Thank you!
CW @ 26:
How about going back to when the US installed Sadaam Hussein and gave him access to all the weapons we accused him of having, or when US countries were helping Kuwait slant drill under Iraq. Or how about when the US gov't gave permission to the Iraqi govt to invade Kuwait. Or the sanctions imposed after the Gulf I, which punishished only the general populace. How about the lie told us by our govt (You know, WMD-that bullshit) that got us into war without end.
You have very selective knowledge. It's called lying by omission, and I thought Marines were supposed too honourable to lie like that-at least to fellow Americans.
If I were you I'd be pissed at these rich arseholes that are turning you and your brothers into dead bodies, hamburger meat and war criminals.
This, and the incidents dramatised (based on the truth-are we not fighting for truth, justice and the American way over ther? Or is it just the latter?) on a TV show never had to happen, much to our National Shame.
There now-go back to being a good German.
I have to admit, I got tired of watching SVU when it pretty much became a "pedohile of the week" tv show. This clip was pretty good, I'll have to check it out when it is rebroadcast. I must admit I've always found L&O "Criminal Intent" a much more interesting program as far as characters and subject matter(they also tackled subjects such as torture, Enron, and terrorism).
CW @ 49:
The solution was not to go in the first place.
And torture is never acceptable.
Is this enough torture for you?
http://www.counterpunch.org/worthington10242007.html
Great clip! The last scene regarding the Hippocratic Oath was a fine touch, bringing home the situation in our real lives. More people than just doctors are involved in the horrors that currently pass for governance and protection of our country. . It must also be remembered that most in the current administration took an oath also - to PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION. Unfortunately that venerated document has been shredded during the past 6.5 years.
Those responsible for the "wars" we are currently engaged in appear to believe that Iraqi's and Afghani's are less than human. This was a hallmark of another regime some 60 - 70 years ago! How quickly history repeats itself if it is not heeded or understood.
We have had a bunch of treasonous vermin in our current administration, and many continue to practice their acts as war criminals.
Dr. Acula @ 25:
I want to see what company gets the contract to build the fence. My money's on a subsidiary of KBR
CW @ 49:
Now you're just being wingnutty silly. Makes it difficult to take anything you say seriously.
Chacounne @ 10:
Thanks for sharing your personal experience with us. I agree wholeheartedly with you. No torture EVER! And thanks to Dick Wolf Productions too for this excellent piece of work.
Ex-Canuck @ 55:
Well said! Thanks for stating this so eloquently. I agree with you and wonder when this travesty will stop or be arrested...
Where was this stuff five years ago? It's great that the media is finally catching up to what we've been pissed off about for so long. Too bad most Americans only find a shred of morality when we're "losing" a fight. If we were still "winning" in Iraq it's safe to assume this stuff would still be considered anti-American liberal bias.
CW - after 9/11 the whole world was on our side - Iran helped with ousting Al-Quada and the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia came up with a workable peace plan for Israel/Palestine. Led by Cheney's office the Bush Admin took the help, then turned around and refused to cooperate with any of them. Bush straight up lied to his Saudi friend (remember the photo of the two of them tip-toeing thru the bluebells?) and after stalling Iran for weeks, called them a member of the 'Axis of Evil' in a public speech. Iran felt they had been kicked in the teeth and decided (correctly, as it happened) that the US could not be trusted. That led to Amahjimidad and an accelaration of the nuclear program. If you get named as one the the three most evil nations in the world by the most powerful nation in the world, and that nation invades the non-nuclear nation and negotiates with the nuclear nation, proceeding as fast as possible to a bomb makes perfect sense. Read the article on Iran in this month's Equire magazine.
As with most citizens of the US you are ignorant of most of the lies and evasions your government has handed you. Is Iran dangerous - yes, and it is far more dangerous because of the actions of the US government. Do we torture - yes, we do. in defiance of 200+ years of tradition. Did you know that George Washington was criticized because he demanded humane treatment of POWs? By the end of the Revolutionary War, precedent had been set - until 2003.
Now we are a rogue nation - the rest of the world hates our government and its policies. By the grace of God they don't hate all of us yet - but Bush/Cheney still has a year to go. I hope I survive - you, too.
ah yes, the 'good cops' will save us.
TV is nothing but pig worshiping filth.
the notion that this would take place in reality is absurd; if law 'n order reflected reality they would show pigs beating the crap out of / tasing helpless people, acting like idiots, and being generally good pigs.
CW @ 49:
The Clintons are republicans light, why would you villianize them? Remember WTO, GAT, Nafta and more? The Clintons are not democrats, unless you consider Lieberman a democrat.
I dont believe you read the posts.
CW @ 64:
First actor ... planned in the '90s.
Marge @ 39:
As far as I know, SVU is continuing on for the foreseeable future...Christopher Meloni and Mariska Hargitay signed 2-yr extensions after last season.
http://movrevonline.blogspot.com/2007/10/law-and-order-svu-harm-october-...
dman @ 67:
sorry just love the one and only comment about the show
miss_kitty @ 52:
as a former navy man i can tell you that marines get so much smoke blown up thier asses in the corps they really believe thiers a halls of montazuma where they go to recieve thier clap shots!
CW @ 49:
yeah and I worked the damn inauguration in 85, got my jelly beans and license plate as a big thank you to the guys in uniform...
but that being said, Bush both senior and junior are no Ike, no truman, no roosevelt and no lincoln, Christ he isn't even reagan (who at least was using more diplomatic solutions befoer pulling out the big guns)
So here we are getting ready to go to war with Iran, who we supplied with what during the 80's???
you gonna enjoy your retirement from active duty, get educated about whats really going on, or are you getting called back up for the cause???
IF you aint doing either, than as they say on the Afh-pak border Chub shau.
CW @ 64:
let me guess your going to the party dressed as a clown!
he he volfies touting the fact thier are less american combat deaths in iraq, i dont wonder the smart ones are setting it out in fields drinking sodas!
please dont let me stop you from commenting , im sure you have something far better to say!
Tyree, he doesn't know yer hatchway dropping expertise,
can't wait till he comes back manana
I've been waiting, for a while now, for the "breaking news" that some nutbar has his/her own private torture chamber in the USA. Now that torture is mainstream, and government policy, and "totally legal and harmless" (say some), and talked about so much, someone is bound to do it. Maybe a school kid that gets picked on, or a disenfranchised loner with a grudge.
Good show. If it takes TV shows to make people think-- so be it. Sometimes news is news, but we don't put a face on it, or don't put a face on the people in the news. Fiction has always been a good way to get a message across/out. Look at "1984" and "Big Brother".
I was at the dentist this week: someone I trust, and in a clean and safe environment. I got drugs beforehand, an explanation of the procedure, and a local anaesthetic so I would feel no pain. I still didn't feel comfortable. Now imagine being hooded, beaten, and taken to a dark prison. I won't type out a long story, just use your own imagination. How terrifying that must be. Every sound, every movement, is a threat, and it never ends. No control at all and monsters in charge of you.
CW @ 49:
Have fun at the party. Hillary might be scarier than Bill. (Bill is kinda sexy.)
Anyhow, I read your stuff, and you're doing what you feel is right. Fair enough: you don't make policy.
I think most people here, (but I won't speak for them) would like to see more honesty. Throughout history (it seems) the American people, as a whole, can make rational, tough and fair decisions if provided with the truth. I don't see this administration winning any grades in the truth department.
They lied the nation into the war in Iraq, and did not pursue ObL.
They do not uphold their oath to protect the Constitution.,
They use propaganda instead of "truth", or even a decent amount of forthrightness, and smear everyone that does not agree and support thier sinlge viewpoint.
From my viewpoint (and I'm not American) they seem to be tearing apart the very fabric of your country. The fabric that made you great. It can't be good. Making torture policy diminishes the belief in truth and freedom. To the outside world, you look like a band of thugs, not someone to rally to the aid of, or even respect. Now, you're not better than that you decry.
Does it really matter who started it? Is there an answer? (NO. Not really.) The way it stands today, the paragon of freedom and justice has ceased to exist. So now you're just another angry mob, albeit a rich one, with lots of goodies in the arsenal.
it's all a game of good cop (TV, KOZY KARING KOPZ) bad cop (reality; 'DON'T TASE ME BRO!') fighting for the property rights over a demented hellscape of American political consciousness ... where failure of analysis confusedly stumbles into lines of baton wielding apoplectic cracker pigs in the best of times .. the championship spectacle of Hillary-Obomba vs Chimperor McFlightsuit: where Hillabomba promises another 8 years of delusional imperialist claptrap disguised with liberal niceties & perfected elitist manners which have naught in common with her bourgeois voting admirers save for the most superficial flapdoodle, err villages, I mean children, I mean security, err, I mean vision & leadership i think, or is it profits, yeah.
you good hearted liberals might be wise at this critical juncture to ditch your televisions & stop permitting the media-pig-voting-entertainment complex dictate the framework of your considerations ...
the bush administration denies torture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaK3a3XSPA8 - credible? It's interesting how folks who see black and white on so many issues suddenly see torture as somehow in a gray area.
The show did not "get it right." First, there should have been a challenge to the Dr's assertion that valuable information was obtained. The facts are otherwise, and whatever is obtained must be corroborated by multiple independent sources before it can be deemed reliable according to all the "experts" I have read. The Dr's speech at the end of her testimony about our being at war and this being the only way to obtain information necessary to our security was grounds for a mistrial on several bases. Nevertheless, in the form of objection, the prosecutor should have presented the rebuttal to all that for the audience's consideration. That would have been "getting it right." Finally, there should have been greater examination of the harm caused to the detainees in the trial scenes. What was depicted here seemed relatively mild compared to the reality.
To do the show properly would've required real guts on the order of Norman Lear (or the Smothers Brothers). This was barely sustainable as a challenge to what is going on. However, since the main character of at least one "cutting edge" human interest sort of drama has a photograph of Ronald Reagan in his office, I guess this show was the best we could hope for.
"In a perfect world, we would be seeing these kinds of trials take place today"
Actually, in a perfect world, there would never be cause for holding such trials in the first place.
I wonder if Fred Dalton Thompson was pleased with this episode. Just smacks the Repukes left right and center doesn't it?
What I still don't understand is that Bushie and his mob SUPPORT TORTURE because the US is at war with terror - but if a US citizen is tortured by a muslim - all hell breaks loose.
You can't have it both ways Repukes - either your for it or against it.
Can't wait to see the whole episode in Australia - probably next year sometime. Would havve hurt Bushies mate Howard who is currently up for re-election and anything like this would have hurt his chances even more.
I saw that show and it made me a fan of the Law and Order show. So refreshing to see the torture scenario examined without an endorsement of the ticking bomb right wing rationalizations. Hopefully an antidote to the horrible 24/7 show that the wingnuts love.
It's not NBC who deserve your praises, it's the show's creator, Dick Wolf!
Before American doctors work in any other country they need to be asked if they participated in torture. That's automatic loss of licence to have participated in any nazi-like autrocities.
rpppolyp @ 28:
I've never watched 24, have no interest in it really.
I'm just saying that while the war in Iraq is a waste of time and money and lives, there IS a threat of Islamic terrorism in the world. 9/11 was not a figment of our imagination.
Case in point, when there are six Imams praying LOUDLY at the airport, you think people shouldn't call security?
Islamic extremism is a problem, in the Middle East, in many parts of Europe.
The way people are bending over backwards not to offend Muslims is ridiculous. Sorry, in the West we have the right offend Muslims and their religion.
I hold the guiltiest of war criminals to be the doctors and the psychologist who have instructed and directed the torturers about how to achieve the greatest efficiency and impact of their torturers.
Medically speaking, crucifixtion is a stress position. It, too, leads to cardiac failure.
These rogues have, from my perspective, commited the deepest betrayal of one human's debt to another and to humanity. To a person, they should spend the rest of their lives in prison.
I really really really REALLY wish they'd turn down the background music. The crescendo thingy that they do drowns out the dialogue and drives me nuts. I'd prolly watch the show more often if it weren't for that.
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