Mukasey's tortured response
By Steve Benen Tuesday Oct 30, 2007 7:33amThe more Michael Mukasey refuses to say that waterboarding is torture, the worse his chances of confirmation.
Attorney general nominee Michael B. Mukasey told Senate Democrats yesterday that a kind of simulated drowning known as waterboarding is "repugnant to me," but he said he does not know whether the interrogation tactic violates U.S. laws against torture. [...]
Mukasey said that techniques described as waterboarding by lawmakers "seem over the line or, on a personal basis, repugnant to me, and would probably seem the same to many Americans." But, he continued, "hypotheticals are different from real life, and in any legal opinion the actual facts and circumstances are critical."
Given that the U.S. has prosecuted waterboarding as a war crime, it hardly seems like a "hypothetical."
Hilzoy adds, "That we are even having a debate about this question, and that it is not a foregone conclusion that someone who claims not to know whether waterboarding is torture cannot possibly be confirmed as Attorney General, is a testament to the moral degradation of our country, and of our political discourse."
At this point, Pat Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, has refused to schedule a vote on Mukasey's nomination. Stay tuned.
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But, he continued, “hypotheticals are different from real life, and in any legal opinion the actual facts and circumstances are critical.”
-Which we will never know thanks to National Security.
We can't tell you lest we tip our tactics to the terrorists,
trust us, this is for your security.
Thank you, Hilzoy! There is no gray area on this.
He likes torture! Go on and say it.
All the neocons love torture. They will defend it to their dying day.
Hey if you like torture so much why don't ya go and...ah, never mind.
Vote peace and NO torture! Got it?
Peace.
And yet the media continues to report the story as if waterboarding has merit under certain circumstances, instead of affirming international law (both the Geneva Conventions and the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights) and calling out the literal truth/hypocrisy of the Bush Administration mantra "we do not torture."
If only there were some way to get Mukasey to answer the question .....
Joementum @ 5:
We could waterboard Dubya. He doesn't have any information of use, making him the perfect subject.
Or Dickie-boy, since it's just a 'dunk in the water'.
Or Condi, who expressed shock and dismay that someone like Maher Arar would have been tortured while in Syrian custody.
Or any of a number of conservative radio pundits, who would probably be the first to break down and confess to everything from snorting coke to lusting after Sister Mary Catherine in 1st Grade.
Shadowgm @ 4:
"We do not torture" actually means "We do not torture here."
The correct answer is: 'Waterboarding is one of many forms of torture, all illegal."
MID - TERM - APPOINTMENT. Done and done. No need for further discussion, Prince Chimpy will get what he wants, so there, nyah (nyah).
Chip @ 7:
Like I said, a literal truth. Or, to borrow a phrase, "Y'see? He says one thing and does another."
Chip @ 7:
BS. It's done all the time in police interrogation rooms. Just not to white suburbans - you know, the people who matter.
I meant "white suburbanites".
Too early......
Yellow Elephant Safari @ 11:
Or so Rudy Giuliani claims.
Wonder if anyone is going to pursue an appeal based on the fact that Rudy admitted to electronic surveillance (possibly without warrants) and 'enhanced interrogation' of Mafia types?
"We do not torture"
tell me again why we had CIA secret prisons overseas?
I seriously suggest that you all read his letter in full... his response is being seriously misrepresented.
I think listening to the creative ways GOPheads waffle has become another form of torture that results in death. Of the truth.
You can find the letter here.
Good for anyone voicing out not to confirm this looney tune. What a complete nutjob. Looks as if mukasey found a comfortable place up chimpy's ass.
He doesn't speak on following the Geneva Convention he only speaks about king chimpy's rules.
To mukasey pulling out detainee's fingernails is just a manicure.
can find waterboarding graphic here [Deleted. Advertising]
OT but...
why did the price of a gallon of gas jump 18 cents OVERNIGHT last night in my town?
If he could only lose his ability to recall what he has said, he would be a "shoe in".
taodon @ 15:
And your point is ...?
I'm sorry, but I'm still seeing a very clear and carefully calculated response to avoid being nailed on a specific answer. Mukasey cites the Army manual on Intelligence, but neglects the Military Commissions Act, which - at least in one form - included a get-out-of-jail-free-card for those personnel carrying out actions found in conflict with international law.
While Mukasey says, "If it were wrong, I would step down / take corrective measures," he's already pointed out that waterboarding violates military procedure ... but continues to dodge the substantive issue of 'enhanced interrogation' and the 'we do not torture' nonsense.
So we go round and round, and fall for the okey-doke, thinking we're gonna get the pink stuffy toy at the top of the shelf for sure this time.
taodon @ 15:
And I seriously suggest you seriously consider whether you want a USAG who will continue to play "word games" as this nominee is doing. And, yes, I have read his complete letter; his arguments as to why he won't affirm that "waterboarding" is torture are weak. The fact that he doesn't know "whether the techniques presented and discussed at the hearing and in your letter are even part of any program of questioning detainees" is not a salient point; the act of "waterboarding" has been revealed by many sources, which have stated that it IS a tool in the interrogation toolkit. But he refuses to state whether, in his opinion, it IS a torture method or not.
He doesn't have to know whether the technique is being used, or is part of an illegal program to conduct torture on detained combatants to answer the question, "Is waterboarding torture?" Any sane person can answer that...and if the answer is, No, then sanity has left.
It's been further pointed out that the ban in the military manual does not apply to say, CIA personnel.
Shadowgm @ 22:
The point is how is he expected to give an opinion on something for which he has no proof? We certainly suspect that waterboarding exists. We certainly have numerous reasons to believe the procedure is used. But we have no proof - something which this country's justice system is required to use. So, we're just using the same knee-jerk reactionary truthiness we are constantly bitching about the other side of employing, rather than looking at the situation with objectivity. Yes, we're blocked by a corrupt administration - but the rule of law still exists, even if we disagree with the rulings, and it is employed. I'm not saying Mukasey is the correct person for the job. I just don't think using swiftboating tactics against the guy without basis in fact is really the proper way to move forward in this country.
He should have HIS ass waterboarded,
then ask him if he thinks it's torture.
That should answere the question.
Now, he's being outright dishonest. It is part of US and international case law. I can't at the moment sight the specifics, but after WWII , a Japanese prisoner of war camp commander was sentenced to 30 years haed labor by a US tribunal for torturing US prisoners of war. The specific method of torture was waterboarding. He was convicted for torture, and because he was convicted of toture he was further convicted as a war criminal. Anybody in his position is probably aware of that post-war judicial record.
Mukasey is already being duplicitous and deceitful. I am going to be in an unforgiving mood with any senator from my state who votes to confirm this guy. He is signaling his intent to further enable Bush's criminality.
We do not need another morally and ethically crippled sock puppet without conscience sitting in the AG's seat whose only role will be to continue Bush's work of destroying this country.
Enough is enough. No more. No more.
taodon @ 17:
I read his response. And I don't see a difference between his response and the summary posted here. What are you saying?
muskasey is using chimpy's rules to define torture. It's an open and shut case, chimpy's says and he does it.
He's a 24%er and loves it. A chimpbot.
I like his response, coming from a nominee who intends to become Attorney General. He's signaling that it won't happen under his watch, but he's not exposing the country to liability by pronouncing the practice as torture. Any Attorney General who has to clean up after Ashcroft and Gonzo will have a very difficult job.
Desaparecido @ 19:
Thanks for the graphics. I thought waterboarding was about dunking. It's actually a form of suffocation. Anyone who brings a person to the brink of death and then calls out psych is a torturer.
Let's waterboard Mukasey, Busholini, Evil Dick, Gonzo, Rummy and Condi and see what they think afterwards.
Joementum @ 5:
He can't.
Then he'd have to start the prosecutions...
...and the guys who put him up for the job would be wearing these
taodon @ 25:
It's not the question of proof that is primary, though any legal proceedings will require such.
It's the qualifications of the man seeking the job. Mukasey is being asked to affirm that torture is both wrong and that he will prosecute those found to have practiced same in violation of law.
Instead, he continues to feed the panel carefully phrased answers that not only fail to meet the above, but affirm that the president has some mysterious plenipotenary ability to ignore international treaty, military and federal law in dire circumstances, and that this super-secret power is actually codified in the Constitution.
Mukasey warns that he won't comment on a 'hypothetical' when the 'ticking time bomb' scenario - now being described as the 'more complex' details of the real world - is the true hypothetical, and a bad B-movie plot to boot.
If I were a terrorist mastermind plotting to bomb eight major cities, in no case would anyone on Team A have the essential details of Teams B-H. They won't know the target, they won't know the secret sixteen-digit disarming code, they won't know the placement. That's called operational security. The loss of one team does not jeopardize the other seven; that's why the 9/11 hijackers picked four planes.
Still clueless? If I kidnap and torture Condoleezza Rice, I have no chance of getting President Bush's e-mail password. Furthermore, any access that Secretary Rice has would be cut off or severely limited to prevent damage from someone using her password.
It has nothing to do with being trained to resist torture. The torturer can only resort to more severe techniques or admit defeat. To accept torture or even the stretching of a definition is a precedent America cannot afford to set.
If this ding bat bushite does NOT KNOW if the US Government is using torture, he is either stupid or a liar, and as he is the choice of the GREATEST LOOSER PRESIDENT IN HISTORY, one must believe tha he is probably both!, In any event he should not only be rejected as AG, but should also be disbarred as being too mentally deficient to hold ANY position as an officer of ANY US court!
The dictionary defines torture.
Black and white.
Why are we letting lawyers lawyer it?
Mukasey is Skull and Bones. He was in Bush's class at Yale so my guess is he is.
His son Marc works for Rudy Ghoulianis Law firm as the protector and defender of white collar criminals., and Mukasey has already recused himself from ANY case involving Rudy.
Ah, the election theft fix is in. Rudy will have his Aleberto pre enshrined for him, how sweet and sick.
Mukasey is cut from the cloth of the White House Information Group, and he already is responsible for stopping peace efforts by Iraq by drugging and imprisoning Susan Landreau who was trying to broker a peace arrangement prior to the invasion.
He is one sick fuch.
This is such bullshit. The Attorney General's damn job includes giving legal opinions to the executive branch! There is nothing stopping him from saying what his legal opinion is.
Bud @ 20:
The world's oil production is declining again, and the new money supply is spewing at a fantastical rate from the Fed and US Government.
More money chasing fewer goods, drives prices up.
Joementum @ 5:
Why bother to add yet another lie to the list?
Kafka Lives @ 39:
Leahy will still vote to confirm.
Exactly, waterboard Mukasey! He should be able to quickly determine and communicate whether or not the interrogation technique feels like torture. I can't think of a more reasonable way to approach this thought provoking question.
Mukasey's Pinochetism knows no bounds
Shadowgm @ 4:
Makes ya crazy, doesn't it?! Honestly... this is such wrong thinking right from the start... waterboarding is not hypothetical; it's practiced and has been proven to have been used by the U.S. on detainees. Plain and simple... is it torture? You bet your ass! You don't think so, let's give it a try on you and then you can tell us what you think... sound good?
Taodon says:
No, this is assinine. He's been asked if waterboarding is illegal, much as one would be asked if murder was illegal, and he hedged. Now this is something that we hung people for, after the second world war, after war crimes trials. If you don't think it's torture, please have someone do it to you.
Three words and three words only...
Shitcan his nomination.....JD
There was a point made above that was dead on. This is not about torture, nor is about the Geneva Conventions, nor about domestic spying, etc etc. It is about Presidential authority and the neo con view of the imperial Presidency.
We have been going down this road since Reagan. If the People do not learn HOW their own government works, the Congress will continue to become a non factor in our government. We will turn into a de facto dictatorship.
It used to be that every fifth grader understood the intent of the Founders when this country's Constitution was written. Today, that sadly seems to be not the case.
I say again - the question they should ask this guy is:
"As the nation's top law enforcement officer, would you actively prosecute, without regard to political affiliations and/or position or standing in government, those who are shown to have violated the laws of this country?"
Patriot Scholar @ 47:
He's already answered this.
Mukasey, while affirming the rule of law, also said that in the face of such circumstances, he would either step down or work to change the law.
In case there is any doubt read what a professional has to say here (via TPM):
http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/
Simple! They set it up right there in chambers, before the whole Judiciary Committee, to waterboard Mukasey, and THEN ask him the question. Should clear it right up.
I said it once already, Just shitcan his nomination..I see no reason to haggle over his semantics at this point...
Fuck him! Vote his appointment down for cryin out loud...
Jesus, why do we go round and round on this?? We ALREADY know where this little fucker is coming from and what his loyalties are and who they are to.....If he gets in? It's just more corruption of the judicicial infrastructure.... Like we ain't already dealing with enough fallout from Bush's other judicial appointments...Leahy? Do the right thing just once dammit! JD
Patriot Scholar @ 47:
Unfortunately, this would leave us in the same boat as when the Decider-in-Chief PROMISED to fire anyone in his administration who had a hand in outing Valerie Plame. People of this ilk will SAY anything to "get the job" and have convenient memory lapses, or turn to re-defining the language after they have the job.
Perhaps this idiot should be water boarded himself,until he give the correct answer.
Can I do the dunking ?
Clarity from a former Navy SEAL:
NY Daily News
I know waterboarding is torture - because I did it myself
By MALCOLM NANCE
Wednesday, October 31st 2007, 4:00 AM
Last week, attorney general nominee Judge Michael Mukasey dodged the question of whether waterboarding terror suspects is necessarily torture. Americans can disagree as to whether or not this should disqualify him for the top job in the Justice Department. But they should be under no illusions about what waterboarding is.
As a former master instructor and chief of training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, I know the waterboard personally and intimately. Our staff was required to undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception.
I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school's interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques employed by the Army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What is less frequently reported is that our training was designed to show how an evil totalitarian enemy would use torture at the slightest whim.
Having been subjected to this technique, I can say: It is risky but not entirely dangerous when applied in training for a very short period. However, when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique - without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it.
In the media, waterboarding is called "simulated drowning," but that's a misnomer. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning.
Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.
How much of this the victim is to endure depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim's face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs that show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.
Waterboarding is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. Usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch. If it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia - meaning, the loss of all oxygen to the cells.
The lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threatened with its use again and again. Call it "Chinese water torture," "the barrel," or "the waterfall." It is all the same.
One has to overcome basic human decency to endure causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you questioning the meaning of what it is to be an American.
Is there a place for the waterboard? Yes. It must go back to the realm of training our operatives, soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines - to prepare for its uncontrolled use by our future enemies. Brutal interrogation, flash murder and extreme humiliation of Americans may now be guaranteed because we have mindlessly, but happily, broken the seal on the Pandora's box of indignity, cruelty and hatred in the name ofprotecting America.
Torture advocates hide behind the argument that an open discussion about specific American interrogation techniques will aid the enemy. Yet convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured.
Our own missteps have already created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda's own virtual school for terrorists.
I agree with Sen. John McCain. Waterboarding should never be used as an interrogation tool. It is beneath our values.
Nance is a counterterrorism consultant for the government's special operations, homeland security and intelligence agencies. A longer version of this essay appeared on www.smallwarsjournal
taodon @ 17:
Mukasey states his "personal" objection to the matter which means nothing. He refuses to take a equivocal stand on the issue in the belief that he can have it both ways--promote an illusion of integrity but a reality of promoting the party line. Since he refuses to have the courage to take a principled stand on this issue, he must go. No more rubber stampers compromising the law or political syncophants. I've had enough of the Buscovite Junta and their Tammany Hall politics.
Mulcasey is just a slick talking hack who sold his soul to a corrupt political philosophy.
Oh, please! I hate the ridiculous naivete abounding here! This slimy filthy prick Mukasey will be nominated, confirmed and sworn in as the new AG absolutely no doubt about it!!! Get with the program people! Any of you who think otherwise deserves this administration!
56, Schumer is going to green light Mukasey. He's just enough of a schmuck to do it.
Otherwise, we will kill the nomination. Support within the Dem side of the committee has collapsed.
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