8)

Folks, this is of vital importance. Please see this video. It takes only a minute. Kucinich addresses the house.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlmgKQTkRM8&feature=bz301

Police Union Won't Back Giuliani's Run For President

HA! Looks like NYC Patrolman's Benevolent Association is NOT endorsing Giuliani.

In fact not only NOT endorsing:
"A spokesman for the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association says the union could never support Giuliani. PBA President Pat Lynch goes as far as to say the former mayor lacks real credentials as a terrorism fighter."

OUCH! thats gotta hurt! :)

Justin Case @ 4:

Everytime I hear, "Thank you for your service" this vet thinks, well theres another civilian non hacker, gettin' his war-on.

FOAD!

I'm with you on that.

Andy K @ 8:

Well, at the expense of the names of my relatives who have served, and countless others I've met here at C&L, I'm gonna thank one person in particular to represent them all.

Thank you, tyree, for your service to our country in time of war. You're very appreciated and respected for that service!

I second that....and Errol....this goes for you too bud...

If the veterans and active duty truly served the Constitution, they would refuse their orders.

They are more afraid of a prison cell, than a IED.

Is anyone else starting to wonder if all this bungling really IS on purpose? I mean, if Cheney's one true goal in life is to expand the presidency into a monarchy (as he himself has alluded), what better way to make sure that the Dems don't reduce the presidential overreach than to create a world climate SO bad that the Dem president MUST use (or be sorely temped) these ill-gotten powers? It would explain a lot about Iran. Congress threatens to restore the intended, smaller powers of the presidency and EVERY TIME the administration starts threatening to commit us to a new conflict. A pretty unlikely coincidence in my view.

What a disgrace to our veterans and all they stood for. Seems especially hateful on Veterans Day (or Armistice Day for non-USians). Four years, 8 million dead, and in a much smaller world back then. Did we learn what those killed in that war would have us learn?

I posted yesterday to honour the vetrans of Canada and the states.
I just watched SICKO on dvd and all I could think is wow once it was over.
Your country needs to do some serious thinking about whats important. I don't mean about the moral issues either.
There were times in the movie where I felt absolutly devastated for some of the people in the movie.
And to some of the naysayers out there the system in Canada does work. It's not perfect but it works. My dad has been a type 1 diabetic since 1936, if he were born in the US he would of died or had to move long ago, due to his "pre exsisting condition"
Why people are not rising up in revolution about your healthcare system is beyond me.

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 13:

Is anyone else starting to wonder if all this bungling really IS on purpose? I mean, if Cheney's one true goal in life is to expand the presidency into a monarchy (as he himself has alluded), what better way to make sure that the Dems don't reduce the presidential overreach than to create a world climate SO bad that the Dem president MUST use (or be sorely temped) these ill-gotten powers? It would explain a lot about Iran. Congress threatens to restore the intended, smaller powers of the presidency and EVERY TIME the administration starts threatening to commit us to a new conflict. A pretty unlikely coincidence in my view.

What a disgrace to our veterans and all they stood for. Seems especially hateful on Veterans Day (or Armistice Day for non-USians). Four years, 8 million dead, and in a much smaller world back then. Did we learn what those killed in that war would have us learn?

no disrespect...but the number is MUCH higher.....that number is just the number of Jews they exterminated......on D day alone on Omaha Beach...on the first day we lost 4500 US troops...and that was in the first 4-5 hours

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 13:

Is anyone else starting to wonder if all this bungling really IS on purpose? I mean, if Cheney's one true goal in life is to expand the presidency into a monarchy (as he himself has alluded), what better way to make sure that the Dems don't reduce the presidential overreach than to create a world climate SO bad that the Dem president MUST use (or be sorely temped) these ill-gotten powers? It would explain a lot about Iran. Congress threatens to restore the intended, smaller powers of the presidency and EVERY TIME the administration starts threatening to commit us to a new conflict. A pretty unlikely coincidence in my view.

What a disgrace to our veterans and all they stood for. Seems especially hateful on Veterans Day (or Armistice Day for non-USians). Four years, 8 million dead, and in a much smaller world back then. Did we learn what those killed in that war would have us learn?

and that's just the first day on one beach......then when you add in the Pacific campaign..Guam,Phillipines,Solomon,The Dutch east Indies,Burma,Thialand..and the like...the numbers are staggering

Joe for Unity08 @ 16:

Truth Be Told @ 11:

If the veterans and active duty truly served the Constitution, they would refuse their orders.

They are more afraid of a prison cell, than a IED.

You speak from experience, chump?

The truth stings doesn't it?

1 million Iraqis killed needlessly because armed forces followed their orders. Illegal orders. Only 1/6 as bad as the Germans at this rate.

There was a time when Veterans Day really meant something special to me. I always thought that my fellow Americans "just didnt get it" on these holidays and didnt even have any concept of the sacrifices of our vets and along with Memorial Day and I would fly my flag, often take part in parades dressed in a WWII impression with vets from that war (a real honor for me to do so) and, these days, I no longer fly my flag or feel an anything but numb on Veterans Day and Memorial Day. The being pissed off part was stifled year after bloody year since Bush invaded Iraq enough I guess I rarely feel that part anymore on these days either, and I know that aint right. Or maybe its just a feeling I'm so used to that I dont even notice anymore. Either way, hats off to veterans stuck fighting this shitty war, I feel for you and appreciate what you keep doing over and over and I wish I could get you out of there forever and back in the U.S. cuz we all know you should not be stuck there

mudshark @ 24:

Truth Be Told @ 21:

Joe for Unity08 @ 16:

Truth Be Told @ 11:

You speak from experience, chump?

The truth stings doesn't it?

1 million Iraqis killed needlessly because armed forces followed their orders. Illegal orders. Only 1/6 as bad as the Germans at this rate.

The view is nice.....from the cheap seats.isn't it.

care to try to deny the facts?

lied into two wars

1. Vietnam, the Gulf of Tonkin - 58,000 US Killed, estimates of 1.5 to 3 million Vietnamese killed
2. Iraq, WMDs and regime change - 3800+ US killed, 1 million INNOCENT Iraqi's killed

If they had followed their oaths to the CONSTITUTION - none of those would be dead. NONE.

The difference between being a war hero and war criminal is if your side wins or loses.

I'm gonna ask a big favor here tonight...Please don't engage truth be told..if for nothing else..out of respect for our veterans who served in combat.Thank You.

On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month ...

Whether it's called Remembrance Day, Poppy Day, Armistice Day or Veterans Day - and no matter whether your politics is red, blue or purple - we just need to say "Thank you" to those who have served.

Simple as that.

mudshark @ 27:

I'm gonna ask a big favor here tonight...Please don't engage truth be told..if for nothing else..out of respect for our veterans who served in combat.Thank You.

Oh, lets continue the love-fest for the military. Veterans Day, Memorial Day, National Military Spouse Day, Flag Day, Birthday of the Airforce, Birthday of the Army, Birthday of the Marine Corps, Armed Forces Day, ad nauseum.

mudshark @ 19:

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 13:

What a disgrace to our veterans and all they stood for. Seems especially hateful on Veterans Day (or Armistice Day for non-USians). Four years, 8 million dead, and in a much smaller world back then. Did we learn what those killed in that war would have us learn?

and that's just the first day on one beach......then when you add in the Pacific campaign..Guam,Phillipines,Solomon,The Dutch east Indies,Burma,Thialand..and the like...the numbers are staggering

Am I missing something? I wasn't aware WWI included a Pacific campaign.

Armistice Day, what the US translates as "Veteran's day" is alway on 11/11. Because the arminsitice of WWI as the story goes happened on 11:11pm of 11/11. Ergo the expression "on the 11th hour."

Truth Be Told @ 21:

Joe for Unity08 @ 16:

Truth Be Told @ 11:

If the veterans and active duty truly served the Constitution, they would refuse their orders.

They are more afraid of a prison cell, than a IED.

You speak from experience, chump?

The truth stings doesn't it?

1 million Iraqis killed needlessly because armed forces followed their orders. Illegal orders. Only 1/6 as bad as the Germans at this rate.

Can you just STFU for one non-political thread or do you have to be annoying everywhere you go?

Truth Be Told @ 36:

Filthy Harry @ 34:

Truth Be Told @ 25:

mudshark @ 24:

care to try to deny the facts?

lied into two wars

1. Vietnam, the Gulf of Tonkin - 58,000 US Killed, estimates of 1.5 to 3 million Vietnamese killed
2. Iraq, WMDs and regime change - 3800+ US killed, 1 million INNOCENT Iraqi's killed

If they had followed their oaths to the CONSTITUTION - none of those would be dead. NONE.

The difference between being a war hero and war criminal is if your side wins or loses.

*sigh* I'll handle this.

Hey Truth Be Told, if you're an American your taxes and participation in our society make you just as culpable as the soldier who pulls the trigger. The military in America is an expression of the public's will. Unless you're in jail for refusal to pay your taxes or for attempting an overthrow of the government you're just as responsible. Does that reality sting?

Not really, because as you mentioned, not paying my taxes is one of my ways of not contributing to the war effort.

How much does the government take from your pocket working as a hobo who lives in his mom's basement?

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 32:

Truth Be Told @ 25:

care to try to deny the facts?

lied into two wars

1. Vietnam, the Gulf of Tonkin - 58,000 US Killed, estimates of 1.5 to 3 million Vietnamese killed
2. Iraq, WMDs and regime change - 3800+ US killed, 1 million INNOCENT Iraqi's killed

If they had followed their oaths to the CONSTITUTION - none of those would be dead. NONE.

The difference between being a war hero and war criminal is if your side wins or loses.

You are an idiot. What do Iraqis have to do with the U.S. constitution? If they were convincingly lied to, then why do you blame the soldiers that followed their orders in good conscience? What do the numbers have to do with anything? How do you know that all Iraqi casualties were not involved in hostility? You communicate with the dead, do you?

What an asshole.

"If they had followed their oaths to the CONSTITUTION - none of those would be dead. NONE."

Bullshit. I disagreed with the war from the beginning (at least unless we could get both Hans Blix and the U.N. on board), but Sadam was no saint. If those soldiers had disobeyed what appeared to them to be a direct threat to the homeland of the United States, and a direct order from their Commander in Chief, and VIOLATED their oath to the Constitution by refusing to serve.... a LOT of those people would STILL be dead at Sadam's hand.

You need to shut up until you learn some history, and some common fucking sense. It isn't the soldiers' fault.

I doubt 1 million would be dead, I doubt that water and electricity would be rationed, I doubt we'd be gearing up for Iran, I doubt that depleted uranium would be toxifying their nation and deforming their children.

guess what comes first in the enlisted oath? Allegiance to the Constitution - two steps before allegiance to the President. So in a hierarchy - allegience to the Constitution comes first. As does the Congress comes before the President in the Constitution, Article 1.

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 32:

Bullshit. I disagreed with the war from the beginning (at least unless we could get both Hans Blix and the U.N. on board), but Sadam was no saint. If those soldiers had disobeyed what appeared to them to be a direct threat to the homeland of the United States, and a direct order from their Commander in Chief, and VIOLATED their oath to the Constitution by refusing to serve.... a LOT of those people would STILL be dead at Sadam's hand.

Actually, whenever you enlist... the oath made by every member of the US armed forces has two parts: a) to defend the US constitution against enemies foreign AND/OR domestic, and b) follow their orders of the commanding officers. The order of the two parts to the oath is not accidental and have very specific consequences actually, which some of you seem to ignore.

Also, last time I checked it has been the dynamic duo of Cheney/Bush who has consistently wiped their asses using the constitution for toilet paper, not Saddam. Ironically, Saddam never declared war on the US, it has been the other way around. So technically he never threatened the constitution.

However, I am sure all those hundreds of thousands killed as a direct aftermath of the US invasion were damn glad that they were at least not killed by Saddam. Also the millions of refugees created in the aftermath, again must be thanking their lucky stars that they no longer have a home, a job, part of their family, etc... it seems to be a fair trade for Saddam.

The logical dissonance in your post is scary. We can extend it even further, and basically... we are all gonna die at some point, so any fuck up is A-OK. After all, you and I were going to die at some point, right? Jesus tap dancing christ on a pogo stick!

However, I am not of the opinion that it is the troops fault for following orders, although I think the whole "papa made me do it" was sort of thrown out of the window after Nueremberg (by us no less). The whole administration, and most of the two houses should be tried for treason. Starting a war on false premises and use that war to cancel articles of the bill of rights and parts of the constitution IS a domestic threat on our magna carta. And as such, it needs to be dealt accordingly.

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 40:

Dr. Who @ 33:

mudshark @ 19:

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 13: and that's just the first day on one beach......then when you add in the Pacific campaign..Guam,Phillipines,Solomon,The Dutch east Indies,Burma,Thialand..and the like...the numbers are staggering

Am I missing something? I wasn't aware WWI included a Pacific campaign.

Armistice Day, what the US translates as "Veteran's day" is alway on 11/11. Because the arminsitice of WWI as the story goes happened on 11:11pm of 11/11. Ergo the expression "on the 11th hour."

No, no, no... mudshark and I just got confused because I didn't specify WWI in my post... all fixed already...

(And a know-nothing antiwar zealot that blames the soldier for Bush's lies that talks of duty to country but fails to pay his taxes... why am I not surprised.)

you talk about Duty to Country, when in reality you mean Duty to the State. My duty to country requires me to deprive the state of my financial support.

You see, I know we live in a quasi-dictatorship with Democrats and Republicans masquerading as unique parties - when the truth is that they are a corporatocracy. You see, I know that this state - i.e. the govt, conducts false flag operations against other nations and even against its own citizens.

so why would I, accepting that belief, further empower the govt with my earnings?

Joe for Unity08 @ 42:

Truth Be Told @ 25:

mudshark @ 24:

Truth Be Told @ 21: The view is nice.....from the cheap seats.isn't it.

care to try to deny the facts?

lied into two wars

1. Vietnam, the Gulf of Tonkin - 58,000 US Killed, estimates of 1.5 to 3 million Vietnamese killed
2. Iraq, WMDs and regime change - 3800+ US killed, 1 million INNOCENT Iraqi's killed

If they had followed their oaths to the CONSTITUTION - none of those would be dead. NONE.

The difference between being a war hero and war criminal is if your side wins or loses.

I believe that after they lost the war, German soldiers were allowed to freely return back to society. It was the generals of the third reich who were tried as war criminals. Any 5th grader could understand the fundemental difference between those who simply fight for country serving under a malicious government, and those who fight as warlords pushing a fascist frontier.

In case you still don't get it the German soldiers were not the Nazis. Stupid idiot.

Happy Veterans day.

I see you have a very limited - and government approved - view and historical background of what actually happened in ww2. let alone how it was really started (and nurtured by the Bush clan patriarch Prescott.)

Joe for Unity08 @ 42:

I believe that after they lost the war, German soldiers were allowed to freely return back to society. It was the generals of the third reich who were tried as war criminals. Any 5th grader could understand the fundemental difference between those who simply fight for country serving under a malicious government, and those who fight as warlords pushing a fascist frontier.

In case you still don't get it the German soldiers were not the Nazis. Stupid idiot.

Happy Veterans day.

The allies made distinction between the regular army (Wermartch et al, which were made of mostly enlisted men) and the SS et al. The officer corps of either branch, were however for the most part held and tried on an individual basis.

The Russians made little distintion and killed scores of POWs.

At some point the task of holding trials was daunting enough, that the allies started to set the cut off for military tribunal consideration to be anyone with a rank higher than captain. For the first years of the post-war, Germany was for all intents and purposes a big POW camp. Once the Russians started to show interest in what lied west of the Rhine, the Allies looked the other way and let plenty of people go back to society. Not because they wanted to, but because at that time the old enemy, who is now the enemy of my old friend who is now my enemy is my friend all of the sudden.

There is a reason why the MOSSAD spent a good portion of the past century hunting down the bastards who got away.

In the end, the grunts in the ground just follow orders... and for the most part, they just want to survive and come home in one piece. And who can blame them...

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 44:

However, I am sure all those hundreds of thousands killed as a direct aftermath of the US invasion were damn glad that they were at least not killed by Saddam. Also the millions of refugees created in the aftermath, again must be thanking their lucky stars that they no longer have a home, a job, part of their family, etc… it seems to be a fair trade for Saddam.

So you blame the soldier on the ground too? What convenient world you must live in. The leaders that create these situations are absolved in your zealotry to condemn those that obligated themselves to protect you. And the last I heard more civilians have died from insurgent terrorism and sectarian violence than from any U.S. action. Unless you watch terrorist videos and believe ever word, of course.

Asking a just little respect (or at least silence) for the 10s of millions that have died in battle is apparently too much for the both of you. What does that say about you?

I don't know what it says about me. However you response says a lot about your ability to construct half-assed straw men arguments and use the honor of our armed forces as a shield... speaks volumes about you.

I have no problem with thanking the vets and respecting them. I fail to see how re-stating the order of the enlistment oath is somehow disrespectful. Furthermore, when someone writes something as stupid as basically claiming how all those civilian Iraqis would have died anyways so why bother. I can't think of anything more disrespectful than using the memory of all those who died defending our country, to squash any sort of retort that the stupid remark demands.

This is neither the place and time I suppose... Peace out.

Dr. Who @ 49:

. I fail to see how re-stating the order of the enlistment oath is somehow disrespectful. Furthermore, when someone writes something as stupid as basically claiming how all those civilian Iraqis would have died anyways so why bother. I can't think of anything more disrespectful than using the memory of all those who died defending our country, to squash any sort of retort that the stupid remark demands.

You fail because you didn't read the conversation you were intervening in (in which, ironically, I was pointing to the TBT fallacy that ALL deaths in the region were killed by U.S. soldiers -- they simply are not).

You fail because you still don't get that this administration lying to those that stood ready to fight for their country's safety in 2003 wounded them far more then it ever hurt you.

Truth Be Told @ 52:

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 51:

Dr. Who @ 49:

. I fail to see how re-stating the order of the enlistment oath is somehow disrespectful. Furthermore, when someone writes something as stupid as basically claiming how all those civilian Iraqis would have died anyways so why bother. I can't think of anything more disrespectful than using the memory of all those who died defending our country, to squash any sort of retort that the stupid remark demands.

You fail because you didn't read the conversation you were intervening in (in which, ironically, I was pointing to the TBT fallacy that ALL deaths in the region were killed by U.S. soldiers -- they simply are not).

You fail because you still don't get that this administration lying to those that stood ready to fight for their country's safety in 2003 wounded them far more then it ever hurt you.

thats so rich. now you are saying that since they're too ashamed, (or is it to proud,) to admit that they were punked, suckered, scammed, that they should just go on killing and occupying?

This is the last I feed your trolling. You said:

If they had followed their oaths to the CONSTITUTION - none of those would be dead. NONE.
The difference between being a war hero and war criminal is if your side wins or loses.

You blamed ALL soldiers for ALL deaths in the middle east. Then you called them ALL war criminals. I'm not interested in your quibbling and fucking qualifying and evasion now.

You're acting like an idiot. It's curable, but you don't appear to be interested in helping yourself. I'm done with you.

What your doing on this particular thread is spitting on the memory of all those who fought and died for this country.What they fought and died for was the freedoms you enjoy today.Sure there was mistakes made...but that's for another thread.You really disgust me.Have you no sense of respect for what all those millions of men and women did.And I am pretty sure there was alot of them that dissagreed with what they were doing.You must remember that this day..TODAY..is to show a little grattitude for what those people did and the sacrifice they laid down.How can you in good conscience offend the memory of all those people.You can give us your rant on another thread..and I'd probably agree with you...as would most people here...But NOT TODAY!........unfuckingbelievable.Why don't you enlist and see how it works out for you...since your being so critical of those who have served.....until then..your just pissing in the wind.

oh and as far as those still serving........their not Veterans yet.....their still serving.....geeeezzz...you can be such an asshole....but you know that don't you..your just looking for a fight.and it looks like your losing...again...

Truth Be Told @ 54:

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 53:

Truth Be Told @ 52:

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 51:

thats so rich. now you are saying that since they're too ashamed, (or is it to proud,) to admit that they were punked, suckered, scammed, that they should just go on killing and occupying?

This is the last I feed your trolling. You said:

If they had followed their oaths to the CONSTITUTION - none of those would be dead. NONE.
The difference between being a war hero and war criminal is if your side wins or loses.

You blamed ALL soldiers for ALL deaths in the middle east. Then you called them ALL war criminals. I'm not interested in your quibbling and fucking qualifying and evasion now.

You're acting like an idiot. It's curable, but you don't appear to be interested in helping yourself. I'm done with you.

guilty conscience??

I say this with all due respect:

Would you please shut the fuck up?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/12/clinton.questions/index.html?iref...

Hillary puts a plant in the audience, Edwards calls her on it, and then she accuses him of being like Bush. That's Rovian campaign strategy at its best.

21 years ago, tonight, I was wending my way towards Parris Island, SC, to land on those infamous yellow footprints, at the Marine Corps Recruit Training Depot.

Boy did that suck, and if I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't.

There's family dinner table story about a great grandpappy of mines that was dug into a trench in a battle @ Verdun, during WWI when the dirt wall in front of him collapsed and had him standing directly in front of an enemy soldier

By the rules of the game in play at that moment in that war they were supposed to fire at each other.

Instead, they both realized that neither one of them wanted to die that day, swapped cigarettes, and then rebuilt the trench wall between them and acted like nothing had happened.

Good thing too, as far as I'm concerned, or I might not here typing this right now.

No harm, no foul.

Increase the PEACE.

~nwa

happy veteran's day to my father(korea) my brother(vietnam) my uncle(two gulf wars) my cousin(vietnam, grenada, two gulf wars still active duty in Iraq) and my other cousin(afghanistan(3tours), Iraq(1) still active.

Dustin de Wynde @ 63:

21 years ago, tonight, I was wending my way towards Parris Island, SC, to land on those infamous yellow footprints, at the Marine Corps Recruit Training Depot.

Boy did that suck, and if I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't.

There's family dinner table story about a great grandpappy of mines that was dug into a trench in a battle @ Verdun, during WWI when the dirt wall in front of him collapsed and had him standing directly in front of an enemy soldier

By the rules of the game in play at that moment in that war they were supposed to fire at each other.

Instead, they both realized that neither one of them wanted to die that day, swapped cigarettes, and then rebuilt the trench wall between them and acted like nothing had happened.

Good thing too, as far as I'm concerned, or I might not here typing this right now.

No harm, no foul.

Increase the PEACE.

~nwa

Joyeux Noël

If you havent seen this true story on WWI trench warfare (and humanity in war) you really should, its great

odanny @ 68:

mudshark @ 66:

Dustin de Wynde @ 63:

21 years ago, tonight, I was wending my way towards Parris Island, SC, to land on those infamous yellow footprints, at the Marine Corps Recruit Training Depot.

Boy did that suck, and if I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't.

There's family dinner table story about a great grandpappy of mines that was dug into a trench in a battle @ Verdun, during WWI when the dirt wall in front of him collapsed and had him standing directly in front of an enemy soldier

By the rules of the game in play at that moment in that war they were supposed to fire at each other.

Instead, they both realized that neither one of them wanted to die that day, swapped cigarettes, and then rebuilt the trench wall between them and acted like nothing had happened.

Good thing too, as far as I'm concerned, or I might not here typing this right now.

No harm, no foul.

Increase the PEACE.

~nwa

funny how that kinda thing happens.......my grandfather's brother was one of the first troops in at Belsan Bergen(a concentration camp..I believe it was in Belgium)....when he got home he cried and cried for months(this my grandfather told me)....he was never the same.So when I hear about people saying the holocast never happened.I think about that little story my grandfather told me........war is a horrible thing.What it does to people .....well...Ill never know first hand...and I don't want too.We just need to acknowledge those who did.

Bergen Belsen was in northern Germany and recently opened an Holocaust museum to the monstrous crimes there
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7066733.stm

thank you for the correction.......all those people who fought ...I can't imagine what it was like.To witness those kind of atrocities is beyond comprehension....again thank you.When I think of what all those people did.......it humbles me..We shouldn't forget the men and women who served in Korea and Nam....some of them are still missing.

mudshark @ 69:

odanny @ 68:

mudshark @ 66:

funny how that kinda thing happens.......my grandfather's brother was one of the first troops in at Belsan Bergen(a concentration camp..I believe it was in Belgium)....when he got home he cried and cried for months(this my grandfather told me)....he was never the same.So when I hear about people saying the holocast never happened.I think about that little story my grandfather told me........war is a horrible thing.What it does to people .....well...Ill never know first hand...and I don't want too.We just need to acknowledge those who did.

Bergen Belsen was in northern Germany and recently opened an Holocaust museum to the monstrous crimes there
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7066733.stm

thank you for the correction.......all those people who fought ...I can't imagine what it was like.To witness those kind of atrocities is beyond comprehension....again thank you.When I think of what all those people did.......it humbles me..We shouldn't forget the men and women who served in Korea and Nam....some of them are still missing.

My Mom represented nazi Death Camp Holocaust Survivors for 15 years, from 1964 to 1979, handled about 5,000+ cases in that time, getting them lifetime pensions from the West German government, and psychologically, it really messed her up.

Growing up and learning about this stuff at an early age wasn't a lot of fun either.

Amazing how messed up we humans can get.

~nwa

Dustin de Wynde @ 71:

mudshark @ 69:

odanny @ 68:

mudshark @ 66:

Bergen Belsen was in northern Germany and recently opened an Holocaust museum to the monstrous crimes there
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7066733.stm

thank you for the correction.......all those people who fought ...I can't imagine what it was like.To witness those kind of atrocities is beyond comprehension....again thank you.When I think of what all those people did.......it humbles me..We shouldn't forget the men and women who served in Korea and Nam....some of them are still missing.

My Mom represented nazi Death Camp Holocaust Survivors for 15 years, from 1964 to 1979, handled about 5,000+ cases in that time, getting them lifetime pensions from the West German government, and psychologically, it really messed her up.

Growing up and learning about this stuff at an early age wasn't a lot of fun either.

Amazing how messed up we humans can get.

~nwa

what's amazing is what we can do to each other.And the sane ones are left to pick up the pieces...which pushes most over the edge...when you look at all this in retrospective...it's incomprehensible.

tyree @ 74:

thanx andy k and mudshark, and heres to all veterans peace be yours!

No tyree.....we thank you brother....we thank you.

gn folks..and be well

Once you become a soldier, you become part of a machine. The machine destroys life. The soldier, once a young man with dreams and ideals, becomes a monster. When the war is over, when the machine has worn you out, you are supposed to go back to being a human being again. Combat veterans from this war are, to a large extent, casualties. War is a tragedy. I do not give thanks and cheer as I watch a fucking parade today - I sit in silence and regret. Fuck the military.

allbrothers @ 79:

And I'm sure your sentiments are reciprocated in kind.

After reading through all the comments on this thread, especially those between Truth be Told and those who disagreed with him, I have a few thoughts for consideration.

- Let me first say that my heart is with all Veterans. I honor the sacrifices made by
those who have served, especially those who did so honorably. I lost several good
friends in Viet Nam and my nephew is currently serving in the ME as a helicopter pilot, so I understand the emotions expressed so well by many above.

- Most of the wars Americans have been involved in through the 20th century 'til now were avoidable - as in not really necessary to protect anything except the wealth and futures of the greedy class. Prevarications by national leaders for the benefit of corporatists and financial cabals was the main cause. I do not preclude the moral implications of trying to help those suffering under tyranny, but if it is not profitable, we do not get involved. Let us keep in mind that US interests have been involved in supporting all manner of despots through the years - the same ones we've used as Bogeymen to justify war, Saddam being the most recent.

- The military is itself a "class-ified" group, most especially since we eliminated the
draft. America's defense forces today (with the possible exception of some reserve forces) are clearly divided into two groups, what I would call "professional millitary": those who attended military academies, ROTC, who choose the military as their career;
and, the rest - those who join because they believe they're being patriotic, because
they were lied to about the need for war, and those who just need a job to try and
move up in our society. These groups clearly have different motivations and
different viewpoints and goals as regards involvement in unecessary war.

- The oaths taken by government officials and those entering the military are similar in that they both name protection of the Constitution of the United States of America as the foremost principle. The Commander in Chief and his administration have blatantly disregarded their oaths - the question becomes how could we honestly hold our brave troops to a higher standard?

I, for one, hope and pray that they will remember and hold true to their oaths, now that our glorious leader and our sham of a Congress has reneged on the Posse Comitatus act. When Bush declares marshal law next year (probably after the next "terrrorist" attack, but likely before the elections) I hope our soldiers know that they need to protect the Constitution above all.