Hardball: Buchanan and Maddow on Illegal Immigration: David Sirota too!
By Nicole Belle Sunday Nov 18, 2007 2:35pm
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John Amato and I have had a lot of conversations about illegal immigration lately. Unlike Rahm Emanuel, who--most frighteningly--thinks Dems must move to the right of Republicans on this issue, I really think it's a third rail for progressives, because they get sucked into playing defense on what boils down to a lot of reactionary Republican Fear of Brown People. The cold hard truth is that it's an issue now because the Republicans need a wedge issue. David Sirota:
As our paychecks stagnate, our personal debt climbs and our health care premiums skyrocket, We the People are ticked off. Unfortunately for those in Congress, polls show that America is specifically angry at the big business interests that write big campaign checks.
So now comes the con - the dishonest argument over illegal immigration trying to divert our ire away from the corporate profiteers, outsourcers, wage cutters and foreclosers that buy influence - and protection - in Washington.
Republicans like Rep. Tom Tancredo (Colo.) are demanding the government cut off public services for undocumented workers, build a barrier at the Mexican border and force employers to verify employees' immigration status. Democrats like Rep. Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) are urging their allies to either embrace a punitive message aimed at illegal immigrants, or avoid the immigration issue altogether. And nobody asks the taboo question: What is illegal immigration actually about?
The answer is exploitation. Employers looking to maximize profits want an economically desperate, politically disenfranchised population that will accept ever worse pay and working conditions. Illegal immigrants perfectly fit the bill.
Politicians know exploitation fuels illegal immigration. But they refuse to confront it because doing so would mean challenging their financiers.
Instead we get lawmakers chest-thumping about immigration enforcement while avoiding a discussion about strengthening wage and workplace safety enforcement — proposals that address the real problem.
Case in point: Watch Rachel Maddow try to inject any semblance of sense of how to handle immigration into a discussion on Hardball from last week. At the word "comprehensive", Tweety shuts her down, because obviously, she's not serious...because apparently only Very. Serious. People. discuss immigration in what you have to assume is a cherry-picking manner. Pat Buchanan (and why would you pick Mr. Xenophobe Isolationist to try to debate the issue?) just yells over anything Rachel says.
UPDATE: John Amato... David Sirota articulates perfectly what is going on....We've received a lot of local press coverage for our Blue America pushback against the Rahm/Tancredo bigot bill...Donate if you can...We're going forward with some new ads and could use your help...Bob Cesca:
The other tragic thing about the exchange is that it exposed the fact that Pat Buchanan gets paid lecture fees from businesses that hire and exploit illegal workers. In other words, it doesn't matter whether these corporations hire illegal immigrants -- as long as the check clears, it's fine by him. Way to stand by your principals, Buchanan.
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I love it how people can say 'we need comprehensive immigration reform' but are unable to explain exactly what that entails.
GuessLotto.com
stop the republocratic tyranny on language. state the case.
we should start a political party along these lines: third-rail progressive. people unafraid to touch sensitive issues, getting over our liberal guilt.
Buchanan has to yell over everybody because nobody will listen to the complete, radical idiot.
I just find it funny that Chris asked Rachael to be on his show. He has seen the good reviews Keith gets when she's on his show so now he wants her too. Too bad he doesn't allow her to talk because her words are what have made he so popular. She's way too smart for his kind of show.
He who yells first, loses, Pat. You should know that by now, my friend.
We better wake up - the Right-Fright Machine has decided that their last-ditch best effort to retain control, (which, like everything else about them, is devoid of anything new, honest, ethical, or in anyone else's best interests besides themselves), is to re-up the ante on fear-mongering, lies, baseless accusations, calling the kettle black, (Bush's favorite tactic this week), and out-shouting anyone who disagrees even more than usual.
We must identify their rhetoric for the fringe wierdness that it is and we REALLY have to relentlessly bust Tweety and the other Right-wing noise makers for their bias.
We cannot put up with it any longer, there is too much at stake, and if we don't stop it now, it will take another civil war to get our government back.
I wonder if anybody else is as tired of looking and listening to that old fool Buchannan as I am? The man has absolutely no viable credentials . Why someone would consider his opinion valid is way beyond me , especially when the other side of the debate is offered by the totally relevant and intelligence of Rachel Maddow , and of course Tweety is one of the worst at his so called JOB that there is . Most of them seem like spoiled children who never listen and only speak to hear themselves talk. Rachel needs her own show she is lightyears ahead of most of the morons offered up at MSNBC.
Matthews has mastered the art of seeming to debate an issue when in essence stifling healthy debate. Can't he let Maddow get her point across without focusing on trivial issues?
"You're laughing.........", he said. Give me a break.
First of all, no one can make an argument in favor of illegal immigration. That's like making an argument in favor of anything illegal. Change the immigration laws if you don't like the current ones.
Secondly, illegal immigration will exist as long as big business profits from the exploitation of the immigrants. Big business is the problem. The government will never address this though. And as long as millions of double-digit Americans shop at Wal-Mart and the like, illegal immigration will continue to be sponsored by the state.
more on this at my blog...
They want a wedge issue but what they forget is that the wedge is bigger on the side of Hispanics. They are going to wedge themselves right into oblivion.
cons attack the symptom of illegal immigration instead of the disease of free trade/ NAFTA. Kudos to David Sirota
That should read "double-digit IQ..."
The Republicans seem determined to commit political/demographic suicide by running after the shrinking white racist vote. It is the last place progressives should go. We need to reframe the argument. Like: No human being is "illegal"...
Bigotry must run in the Buchanan family. Doesn't Pat's sister work for "Crazy" Tom Tancredo's Presidential campaign?
DaveTheAngryRhodeIslander @ 8:
I suppose that means nobody could argue in favor of helping slaves escape to the North when that was illegal?
The Repugs are not interested in fixing the problem because:
By maintaining the status quo you undermine the labor movement.
The Chamber of Commerce demands that labor cost be capped at 90's levels.
The Repugs will undermine every attempt to find solutions to the problem in order to satisfy their masters.
I am sorry that Chris & Pat are fellow Catholics. Both are disgraces, especially Mr Buchanan.
The Republicans have put illegal immigration at the forefront of the national debate mostly because they think it's going to be their winning platform in 2008. They want to distract the American public from their disastrous misadventure in Iraq. What better way to unite the masses behind a single issue than to appeal to their basic xenophobic feelings?
There are more important things to be concerned with such as Iraq, global warming and healthcare. These are pressing issues that need immediate attention, yet for some reason illegal immigration is the number one priority for these people (GOP). Go figure.
Why in GAWDS name does she go on with these two demogoging as*holes?
I'd suggest Rachel Maddow for Democratic candidate but I like her too much to do something like that to her.
We have this law here in NYC. If you are caught with an illegal handgun, it's an automatic 3 1/2 years in prison. Let it be the same for anyone hiring illegal immigrants. Period.
Then Col. Sanders can pay his pluckers a living wage.
"The answer is exploitation. Employers looking to maximize profits want an economically desperate, politically disenfranchised population that will accept ever worse pay and working conditions. Illegal immigrants perfectly fit the bill."
There's a word for this, you know - slavery. When the privileged class pays to import controlled workers who are stripped of their rights (and it doesn't have to be all their rights - remember slaves in ancient Egypt and Greece actually had some rights), work for bare subsistence compensation, are deprived of adequate medical care, housed in poverty conditions, and their travel is restricted by their employers - the word for this is slavery.
Get it? Why not start calling it what it is around here?
Corporations want slaves - it is the most profitable answer to the issue of corporate workplace expenses they can desire.
Examples: the Filipino workers who did the labor for the American Embassy in Baghdad, and the imported Asian workers doing the labor in Dubai.
These people are slaves. That's what they are. It is NOT an inflated definition, it's the traditional definition of the word. Look it up yourself.
From Merriam Webster (the dictionary conservatives prefer over the wiki dictionary, the real, traditional authoritative dictionary):
Slave:
1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another 2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
There you have it.
As Paul Krugman has stated in his articles and interviews, with the Republicans the issues ultimately boil down to race.
Racism is the single issue that unites the GOP base. There's no escaping it. However they doublespeak the intentions it comes down to this: empowerment of a small white ownership class which has the right to exploit all other people.
The so-called "guest-worker" concept is a perfect, pristine example of the doublespeak: the correct word is slavery, and creating the so-called "guest-worker" programs would go a long way towards repealing the progress made in the civil-rights era, re-instating slavery, and re-establishing the Elite White Ownership Class that makes or breaks laws according to their whims.
These are the goals of the Southern White Male who comprises the GOP base.
Why can't people just come out and say so, for crying out loud?
Speaking in direct terms would do so much to help America. We need to combat this ugly double speak wherever we encounter it.
BIGBONEDED @ 6:
Yes, why does he show up on so many shows labeled as any kind of expert? Who's giving the ok on this? The network heads, of course.
BIGBONEDED Says:
I wonder if anybody else is as tired of looking and listening to that old fool Buchannan as I am? The man has absolutely no viable credentials . Why someone would consider his opinion valid is way beyond me , especially when the other side of the debate is offered by the totally relevant and intelligence of Rachel Maddow , and of course Tweety is one of the worst at his so called JOB that there is . Most of them seem like spoiled children who never listen and only speak to hear themselves talk. Rachel needs her own show she is lightyears ahead of most of the morons offered up at MSNBC.
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You are so right about Buchanen. It's like he is some kind of toxic fungus that lives within the studios of MSNBC. He is on all of their fucking shows always spluttering his pathetic stupidity. Tweety is simply an utterly deranged and rabid GE CORPORATE SLUT who is trying to find anyway he can , given his own sense of egocentric delusions of grandeur, to make sure one of his corporate buddies/ repiglican wins the next election for President. Right now his boyfriend is Guiliani, a fellow draq queen. Yes, Miss Matthews is also a draq queen who instinctively ejaculates at the mere sight of her fellow draq queen Guiliani.
Americans are in love with cheap goods; Walmart and other big box retailers who get their goods made by esssentially Chinese (and other countries) slave labor; cheap, oversize portions of food, picked and prepared in many cases by those dreaded "illlegals"; and cheap labor: roofers, day labor, janitorial services, landscapers, auto repair, construction, etc. Until we demand that our restaurants, contractors, and maintenance workers are all legalized American citizens, paid a fair and living wage and decide that our love of low prices contributes to illegal immigration, we should all be quiet.
Most illegal immigrants are not employed by "big business" That is a myth. Most are involved in small business and the informal sector. I say this because you cannot enforce the hiring illegals when there are literally millions of different points of employment. Good luck hiring hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats to root out illegals. Yes some industries do exploit illegal immigrants - meat packers and labor-intensive agricultural produce like lettuce and strawberries - but people within their own ethnic communities are just as likely to exploit the new immigrants.
Its so frustrating to watch these kind of exchanges on the tube because no one wants to talk about the root causes or sensible solutions. Until you address the economic motivation for immigrants to come in the first place, you are only band-aiding the situation. I have no doubt that Republicans are driving the issue with an undercurrent of xenophobia, but the democrats are demogoguing the situation as well when they rail against big business. They are both false arguements and totally ignore the heart of the matter. No wonder President Calderon took the extraordinary step of complaining publicly to the U.S. Mexico is being used to further unrelated political agendas.
First, this clip illustrates quite clearly why I do not watch Hardball - Matthews is a loudmouth and a jerk.
Second, I thought NAFTA was supposed to help keep the poor people in their own countries by allowing their own governments/corporations to exploit them without having to export them here?!
Immigration per se is not a bad thing, and I don't think it's feasible to totally stop desperate people from "breaking in" to any country. I do think it might be a good idea to try a little harder. If we are really in jeopardy from so-called "terrorists" entering our country and flying planes into tall buildings, it might make sense to a least make an effort to cut down on that risk. Building a wall/fence along the southern border could help a bit, along with more patrol/enforcement officers. Requiring employers to actually follow the law and to fine/punish those who don't should be mandatory.
What makes me laugh about this whole issue is that it is so obvious that Bush, while he pretends to care and be serious anout a "comprehensive plan," is just putting up a smoke screen to protect his elitist, corporate buds. He'll talk about it a lot, but do nothing to impede the flow of cheap labor so they can all continue to stuff their pockets. I hate to keep saying this, but the idea is to just destroy the middle class so we have no wealth and no will to rail against the imposition of their fascist NWO.
Beyonce Welch @ 16:
No they are disgraces to the whole human race, not just Catholics. they have nothing to say, they both whine, and they probably kick their dogs!
Besides that, how do you figgure that ten years or less down the road Chris will become the new Pat as his show fades into obilivion and he must become a side kick for some other jerk-hoff.
What goes around comes around, especially in stupid news.
Buchanan's sure a feisty little f*ck.
After a performance like that, it re-raises the question of whether he or his sister is loonier.
It's a shame what those priests did to him as a child.
I agree that Rahm and the Dems should STFU on this issue and let the Republicans beat the snot out of each other. The "wedge" is between the Pat Buchanan wing and the NFIB/C of C wings of the GOP. Anyone apopleptic over immigration is probably not a Dem or even swing voter in the first place. This is THEIR puddle of shite, let them lie in it.
It seems to me that the illegal immigration issue can be addressed from two different perspectives. Some Republicans are using a bigotry approach, and are placing on ballots for 2008 a resolution that "English is the official language", in an effort to turn out the same constituency as was turned out by various banning of same sex marriage proposals in 2004.
My perspective relates to what Maddow allured to, namely, that there is a financial incentive for businesses to support illegal immigration, namely, to undercut wages in jobs that Americans would want to do, particularly construction. My view is that if you support "free trade", which entails shipping jobs out of this country to low wage third world countries, then you should support the logical extension, which is to bring in people willing to work for less to undercut wages in those kinds of jobs that can't be off-shored. Hence the conundrum for the leading Democrats, as we are steered towards candidates who support big business's sacred cow, "free trade", the fiasco that produces $¾ trillion/year trade deficits. Clinton and Obama have come out in support for more Nafta, this time with Peru.
I think there should be some kind of guest worker program. I only want legal immigrants in here doing work that Americans won't do, such as agriculture. However, we have to differentiate between work that Americans won't do, versus the moving of wage scales from middle class to working poor as is being done in construction, in this great endeavor to destroy the middle class. I think that one's view on this issue should be identical to one's view on free trade, for exactly the same reasons. I oppose any measure that disparages the immigrant's culture or language.
Meanwhile the DLC candidate of choice, and current front runner is Clinton, who would keep free trade going, and has a health plan that involves sitting down with the lobbyists from the health industry to determine how best to turn national health care into corporate welfare. We'll hear a lot of talk, and no action, on illegal immigration from either Republicans or Democrats, as the true motivation for illegal immigration from this government of the corporation is to undercut wages for middle class Americans.
Preacher Boob @ 28:
A tough call, but I'd have to say his sister.
Afraid of brown people??? The people that are truly afraid of brown people control the mexican govment!!! They are the racist regime. How many people here have watched their schoools destroyed by immigrants??? I have. I have to remove my youngest from our neighborhood high school because there are so may illegal hispanics. The violence and the lack of respect are just to much. You people really need to get a grip. Write the mexican govment and tell them to stop throwing out their indian population. This is the real problem. That and of course the fact that liberals have created another give me,you owe me culture with latina's !!!!!
xoites defends Constitution @ 14:
You suppose wrongly. Those are very different issues, and you know it. No one is capturing illegal immigrants, chaining them, and bringing them here. The reason immigrants come here voluntarily is because they are enticed by the lure of a better life.
Why is no accountability ever placed on the countries the immigrants come from? Why is no accountability placed on the continuing policies of our own government that exploits these people? Like I said, the problem is in our immigration policies and corporate sponsorship of immigration violations. Change those policies and we have no immigration problems.
Illegals are being exploited, no doubt, but it is not slavery. That is very offensive to the slaves and their descendants.
yolo @ 32:
The only "give me, you owe me culture" being subsidized is multinational corporations' bottom line. They may not employ many illegals, but they benefit from the downward pressure on wages.
What I need to know, does that clown ever sleep? How long since his wife has seen him?
That clown is on TV day and night.
On illegal imigration, the problem is people want it both ways. Stop illegals working for below minimum wages but keep product and service prices low.
DaveTheAngryRhodeIslander @ 33:
Oh, Really?
Also
And
As well as
It took me five minutes to dig that up and i have read about many more over the past ten years.
jwf @ 34:
I agree the dems ought to STFU on this.
I am no fan of illegal immigration, the first generation of latino immigrints tends to be catholic & conservative but the next generation tends toward secular progressivism.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/us/15hispanic.html?_r=5&th=&emc=th&ore...
I like these people better than confederate flag waving white trash, & hope this will tile the balance in the electorate away from racist GOP trash.
Maybe this will help you make some connections.
The distinction should be made between acts that are morally criminal as opposed to those that are statutorily criminal. In legal terms it's the difference between acts that are mala in se and those that are mala prohibita.
Immigration is mala prohibita. Breaking that law is a violation of a statute as opposed to a violation of a moral principle such as murder. As a result, it needs to be reexamined to make sure it fits the reality on the ground and that it's a "smart" law.
NoBuddy @ 30:
The demonizing of the Peru Free trade agreement is knee-jerk anti-free trade nonsense and not based on the facts. Peru primarily exports minerals like copper. Those are inputs for manufacturing - this helps U.S. manufacturing, rather than hurting it. The U.S. imports these things anyways, why not get them at a lower price? Also, Peru already had free trade with the U.S. under the auspices of fighting narcotics. This was a humiliating process that constantly required renewal and did zero to actually combat the drug trade.
Many here are using immigration to rail against free trade. Many are also completely incorrect on the effects of NAFTA. Here's an excellent discussion on free trade from today:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/11/19/72959/078
You cannot change the wage structure of a developing country overnight (i.e. "slave labor" referred to by some here). This causes economic chaos. Patience is required, but wages do rise - hence this is why we don't have an illegal immigration problem from the Asian Tiger countries. You do not need wage parity to stop illegal immgration, what you need is hope in the developing countries (like Mexico) that the economic future will be better. This is why you need foreign investment driven by free trade agreements. This is the virtuous cycle that eventually mitigates illegal immegration. The vicious cycle - colapse of free trade and direct foreign investment is actually what exacerbates illigal immigration - exactly what many here propose.
I must go, but i will leave you with this.
Why should these guys listen to anything that Rachel has to say? She's only a girl for crying out loud! There was a time I can recall that this nation led the way toward a global society. A "World Without Borders" seemed within grasp. Now, the once-great has been reduced to a nation whose face to the world is the face of the paranoid, racist, bigoted xenophobe, representative of only a fringe minority of this country's people. At the same time, corporate interests are helping prop up the economies of countries like India and China by outsourcing and inbalanced trade. The past 7 years have ruined us as a nation and I'm growing more skeptical of any ability to turn it around anytime soon.
Sackcloth and ashes seems to be all we're left with.
Incidentally, I could only endure about 2/3rds of this clip. Whatever happened to common courtesy? Listening to Pat Buchanan sets my teeth on edge.
Wasn't there a rumor about that guy over on MSNBC, what's his name, you know the guy that his whole hour is about immigration, every night, the whole hour, for years now, to run for President? What the hell is that guys name? Well, I'm getting older, these kind of things happen.
At any rate, wasn't his show kind of in the crapper and about to be dumped when he came up with the idea to focus on illegal immigration, and his numbers started to go up. Maybe Tweety is thinking the same thing but whow now, he is for the ID card for everyone in the country...dumb ass, oh whatshisface is against that..so he won't get any traction.
Every once in a while, Lou almost kind of touches on that key point. If there were no jobs here, they wouldn't be coming over. But since companies are more than happy to hire people in cash for a fraction of what they would have to pay legally, the people keep coming over the border. Stop the jobs, stop the illegal immigration. Or, at least cut it back severely. But, as you said, NO ONE dares touch that issue. And corporations aren't worried in the least. If anyone tries to lean on The True Masters, they'll threaten to move more jobs over the border, or some other threat.
They are slaves in Dubai but not in United States. They practice their religion, they raise their kids.Give them education and more often than not a future they could not have dreamed of. You throw them out, the farmer is Fresno does not have the people to pick his crop. Even the white-owned Arby's in Ogden,Utah hired the brown folks. It is not only about big businesses. It is about all the American residents. I am sure many of you would not want your kids to do car-washing and flip burgers and re-stock beer cans. These guys pay rents, they pay taxes (on income, sales tax, etc), they keep the property value high enough for the old folks to have comfortable retirements (many invest in their properties for long term benefits).
It is the economy stupid. It is always economics. In fact politics is 90% economics.
One thing I am sure of is this is not slavery. Americans should know better. How do I know it? My friend has an Indian restaurant. He has to hire a new dish-washer almost every 3 months. He has to pay them at least 8$ an hr every time. Similar story with the bus boys. I do not think it is slavery. This is America. The land of opportunity. This is beacon of hope for multitudes of masses around the world. Do not let the dream die. Porfavor.
Love when he busts her for laughing, and does this serious face, then two seconds later he is yucking it up with his pal Buchanan again.
Guess he is fair, he lets the person he wants to listen to talk, and talks over the person who is making sense.
Indeed. Immigration is an issue conservatives can pound the tabletops over and use up precious media oxygen that would otherwise be used to examine the failure of their agenda and core principles ON EVERY OTHER FRONT.
-Iraq a deluded neocon think-tank disaster.
-Foreign policy in shambles. Few trust us. Our name is mud in diplomatic channels.
-Increasing hatred of the U.S. in the muslim world.
-Pakistan, an actual nuclear state, under martial law by military dictator and dangerously unstable.
-Neocons pushing for MORE war by attacking Iran.
-Dollar weak and falling.
-More and more wealth held by very few extremely wealthy.
-Increasing pressures on middle class.
-Looming credit crisis.
-Oil near $100/barrel, with worldwide production peaking and going to beginning inevitable production decrease in coming decades.
-Global warming that conservatives refuse to acknowledge.
-Wetlands depletion of crisis proportions, leading to massive environmental and economic damage.
-Rampant cronyism, corruption and failure of government services the direct result of the conservative push for deregulation.
This is abject failure of most conservative philosophy and thought of the past few decades.
So hey! Let's debate about them dirty mexicans trying to sneak over here to wash our dishes!
xoites defends Constitution @ 14:
Dave, I definitely favor and argue in favor Cannabis, even though the Federal Government claims it is illegal.
I'm still waiting for Congress to amend the Constitution to make Cannabis Prohibition legal, but after 70 years of getting away with the scam, it doesn't look like they're in much of a rush.
Why, oh WHY do you insist that anything about Chris "Tweety" Matthews is Democratic?
He hasn't been a true Democrat since he wrote speeches for Jimmy Carter.
I love the way people are automatically labeled as being afraid of brown people the second the immigration issue comes up. It seems if you are opposed to people swarming into this country by the millions, living off of our jobs, having anchor children who are automatically citizens and then drain our system by our having to also educate their children and provide healthcare for them that they don't pay for so the cost goes up for us, you are considered prejudiced. Got news for you, it isn't just brown people, they come from Europe, Asia, South America, Mexico, and everywhere else on the planet. I am opposed to every person who comes into this country being allowed to stay here and their children being US citizens when their parents just have the kid to have what they call anchor children.
The government allowed our jobs to be shipped out all over the planet. The companies will not pay a wage that someone can live on and they would rather have an illegal. It saves them money. If we started to really crack down and hold the business responsible then we might see wages increase for US workers. We need to stop the stream of persons who are taking what is left of the jobs in this country.
I feel bad for a mother who is separated from her child because she is in this country illegally. Perhaps the child is a US citizen because he/she was born here, but to stop granting citizenship for children born in this country to parents who are not would put an end to one problem. The children and the mother could all be deported. At the same time, if enough mothers become separated from their children perhaps they would think about having these anchor children. They would also start to think about the cost of coming into this country illegally.
What we have is a country and a way of life that is going to hell in a hand basket. These people are draining our system and taking our jobs. We can not take care of the entire world! It is time to back off and concentrate on the United States and its citizens to bring this country back to the greatness that it once was. We are well on our way to becoming a third well country that mimics the country many of these people have come from.
Saying people who are afraid of brown people or prejudiced who want them sent back so we can take care of ourselves and not have them drain the system anymore is insane. The reason the poor are so sick of them is that we are sick of the problems that trickle down to us because they are here. For example, if companies could not hire cheap labor they might start paying a decent wage, if landlords suddenly found too many apartments perhaps the prices would go down so a young family could afford them. It is not about skin color at all. It is about what they are taking away from this country. It is much more than just the identity theft that is so high along our boarders. From what I can see, very few add anything to our country. The only ones who benefit are the companies who employ them.
pissed off patricia @ 3:
This goes to exactly why dems and progressives never convince me of anything...you are just way smarter than everybody else. How do you think you will change a voter's view when you are always telling them how stupid they are??
I am a life long democrat and reasonably progressive, but I am completely disappointed in the way dems constantly demean people they disagree with....to paraphrase..."you don't seem to hate the policy, you seem to hate the people"
I challenge Mr. Tancredo or any of his ilk to stand face to face with the family of a sick immigrant child and deny, in person, health care to that child. Let it be televised and podcast so everyone can see what kind of people they really are. Force them to tour Hutto and explain to the detainees there why they are being treated like murderous felons. And let them explain why their ire is directed at mainly brown-skinned people, and how their so-called Christian beliefs justify that treatment.
Let them explain how those beliefs justify harassing and killing people along the border, too.
Big Corps don't "Hire" illegal immigrants, people (everyday folks like you and me and your neighbors) that have crap work that they want done CHEAPLY (nannys/gardeners/cleanup debris/lawn mowers.....etc) are the biggest employers/enablers.
Would you give a homeless veteran $5.00 an hour to rake your yard? "Well, he's homeless, I'm HELPING him out for crying out loud". "Where's your heart?" "Would you rather me kick him to the curb?"
No, I would rather govt. programs that WORK help him. I would rather you not hire illegal immigrants. I would rather you not feel like you are helping someone, when in actuality you are really not doing anything at all but trying to get cheap labor for yourself.
It,s not hard to put and end to this problem. The goverment set up task forces in each state there job going after compaines with illigal workers stop all food stamps, houseing, free medical, free school, no other freebees they would leave on there own.the rapest, robbers, and others would be put in jail then sent back after they serve there time at hard labor.Big business that hire them should be find big dollars and jail for upper management.
pops @ 57:
It is hard. Sure, you can raid some high profile companies and stop the hiring of illegal immigrants for those specific businesses, but you're not going to drive illegals out of the country, you will only drive them into the informal employment sector. In tax collection, there's a reason why only one in 300 tax returns are audited - because its an extremely time consuming process. Same thing with checking on employers for illegals. Do you want a government official coming to your residence to investigate if you hired a nanny illegal, invading your privacy? This is what it would take to stop the hiring of illegals and I don't think you want this.
8:09 AM - PST - unfrozencaveman Says: "The demonizing of the Peru Free trade agreement is knee-jerk anti-free trade nonsense and not based on the facts. ...Here’s an excellent discussion on free trade from today:"
Well, there is one fact that trumps all others. The trade deficit, around 3/4th of a trillion dollars, year after year, proves that free trade isn't working. Your "excellent" discussion of free trade produces one salient point - "First, the US must accept the fact that we have a hard road for the next few generations." Well, I'll be dead in a few generations, so I would opt for plan B, articulated by Dennis Kucinich, which is to end Nafta, and participation in the WTO, and instead engage in bilateral trade agreements when Americans and workers would benefit. Let's see, Red China has about 1.2 trillion dollars, due to their trade surpluses? We are now a debtor nation to Red China? There are political and military reasons that trump economic reasons to not continue down the same path. These countries, who benefit from free trade, and have surplus dollars are developing Sovereign Wealth Funds (SWF) to invest in our equity markets. So, we're directly handing dollars to foreign countries, morphed into the largest debtor nation, largely beholden to foreign countries, and now are transferring ownership of our corporations to foreign countries. I have an earthshaking tip for you - these multi-national corporations tend to engage lobbyists to influence politicians, which has turned this country into a government of the corporation, by the corporation, and for the corporation. Well, with increasing foreign ownership of formerly "American" corporation, your politician is increasingly becoming foreign owned.
A weak dollar should stimulate exports - unfortunately, through free trade, we have already exported much of our manufacturing base, hence the economic benefits of a weak dollar become muted. And your notion that we accept your "excellent" overview of free trade, which implies a "few" generations of trade imbalances to the tune of $¾ trillion/year is a prescription for disaster. Kucinich is right, engage in trade through bilateral trade agreements when it makes sense, and a end to this ideological worship of "free trade" no matter what. Not a prohibition of trade, but a prohibition of trade when the deal won't work to America's benefit.
Free trade, which implies bringing American wages into parity with third world wages, will also bring our pensions, social security and health care into parity, which means ending them. I need politicians that will work for American people, not multi-national corporations with multi-national owners.
where the fuck does maddow live???
definitely not in socal
illegal immigration has indeed changed....its much greater now than 20 years ago
and to say that we havent done anything before doesnt mean we shouldnt do something now
Politicians. Jeebus. I reminded of yet another Mel Brooks film, History of the World, Pt 1:
Dole Office Clerk: Occupation?
Comicus: Stand-up philosopher.
Dole Office Clerk: What?
Comicus: Stand-up philosopher. I coalesce the vapors of human existence into a viable and meaningful comprehension.
Dole Office Clerk: Oh, a *bullshit* artist!
Comicus: Hmmmmmm...
Dole Office Clerk: Did you bullshit last week?
Comicus: No.
Dole Office Clerk: Did you try to bullshit last week?
Comicus: Yes!
Pretty much sums up the average politician and the crap they lay on us, just with nicer ties.
NoBuddy @59 -
A trade deficit in and of itself is not a bad thing. The U.S. afterall has had trade deficits for decades. It is what the money is borrowed for, that is the key. The trade deficits are becoming a problem now, not only because of their size, but more importantly for what the money is spent on. The U.S. is spending a larger percentage of GDP on unproductive and counterproductive investments like the Iraq War and our wasteful and overpriced healthcare. This is a phenomenon over the past 5 years, but traditionally, over the long span, the U.S. has simply been a good investment for foreigners. This is being frittered away right now, but it's important to understand that in the academic sense, countries should run surpluses and deficits based on their current economic opportunities - i.e. capital should chase the best opportunities regardless of borders. Right now countries are starting to realize that their U.S. treasury bonds investments are not underwritten by the same economy as ten years ago - hence the fall of the dollar.
You're trying to perpetuate the myth that the U.S. doesn't have a manufacturing sector anymore. This is totally false and easily shot down by looking at the numbers. In some ways U.S. maufacturers are victims of their own success by generating more with less workers. This is where the U.S. government should step in and help generate new industries and educational opportunities. This will take time, not a few generations, but it does require patience and competent government leadership. Leadership we will not get by the way from people like Kucinich who use anti-free trade as a cheap political ploy.
So what do you call it when a bunch of uninvited people from the "old world" suddenly decide to just go on over to the "new world" and set up housekeeping?
The US was born from illegal immigration.
To Tweety: If this is, and has been such an important issue, then how come Pat Buchanan doesn't have Secret Service protection afforded to former presidents?.......
Good on Rachel for exposing this as another right wing wedge issue.....keep laughing Rachel, you have every right to do so - after listening to a bunch of old white men whining about this issue!
Todd @ 57:
Yes, big corps do "hire" illegal immigrants. From a few months ago: The sweeping raids at Swift & Co. plants across six states Tuesday led to at least 1,282 arrests nationwide, making it the government's single-largest worksite-enforcement operation ever. http://www.reyeslaw.com/news/article-federal-immigration-raid-swift-1214... I wonder how meatpacking plant wages have been trending...
pissed off patricia @ 4:
Tweety looks at Rachel with complete disgust and disdain.
For every illegal Mexican working in the United States, there's an American getting, uninsured labor.
make that CHEAP, UNINSURED LABOR.
Personally, I think both sides are to blame, which is the case on all issues. This site is becoming irrelevant as more and more people wake up to the fact that the left/right paradigm is actually just a show, a clever ruse to divide and distract us. What we have here in America is oligarchy - one party rule by the elite. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between Bush and Clinton, we have all been had.
Personally, I'm tired of paying increasingly high property taxes here in Denver so illegal immigrants can live off of me getting free healthcare and housing that even I can't have as a US citizen. This is CRAP. As far as I'm concerned, we DO need to close the border. That doesn't mean a fence, that's the words of retards. Fences don't stop people, patrols and radar too, duh!
unfrozencaveman Says:"A trade deficit in and of itself is not a bad thing. The U.S. afterall has had trade deficits for decades. It is what the money is borrowed for, that is the key."
I think that when we borrow, it is part of the 'budget deficit' not the 'trade deficit'. Two different things. I think the "sub-prime" mortgage issue is the tip of the iceberg of a larger debt bubble problem. A large budget deficit, large corporate debt, large mortgage debt, large consumer debt, and large amounts owed to foreigners comprises the rest of the bubble. Increasing numbers of uninsured Americans, large trade deficits, an expensive and non-competitive health care system, future Medicare and Social Security liabilities is pouring gasoline on the fire. We have had trade deficits since the 1970s but those deficits were largely oil imports, and we didn't have massive deficits across all industries until the birth of "free trade".
As part of the budget deficit, China holds perhaps 200 billion of this debt, making this country a debtor nation to China. In addition, due to the trade deficit, China has about $1.2 trillion in dollars. I heard, not confirmed, that China has threatened to flood markets with dollars if we bomb Iran. While I'm not in favor of bombing Iran, I am also not in favor in giving a communist adversary financial leverage over this country. I think 10 years from now, giving China leverage over this country will be deemed Bush's largest foreign policy disaster, superseding Iraq.
I think free trade is a back door to facilitate a laissez-faire approach to managing business, because things like labor protection and worker's rights generally are more expensive, reducing competitiveness. It's the classic battle between those who derive their income from wages versus those who derive their income from the labors of others (dividends).
I see harm to our political system with free trade. The last Democrat debate was manipulated by CNN to plant questions favorable to the free trader, Clinton. We're being manipulated by the corporate media into two corporate owned politicians to choose between. Foreign countries, through the trade deficits, are holding dollars that are being invested into corporate equity, which in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. But the corporate ownership of our politicians is being shifted into foreign corporate ownership of our politicians, and I do see that as a bad thing.
Anyhow, the article you referred to, which said to wait a "few" generations may be moot, as the debt matters will come to a head mush sooner that that. If the dollar loses its status as the worlds "reserve currency", all hell will break loose. Since the government doesn't seem to have any fiscal restraint, the dollar loosing its "reserve currency" status looms as a significant possibility.
Paul Roberts
Chavez on dollar
Family Guy, of all things, totally NAILED the whole immigration brouhaha last night. Fucking nailed it. Hats off to Seth and crew.
Government prosecutions of employers who hire illegals plummetted after Bush took office...big donors in meat pack, ag, construction wanted a free pass to cut wages and dilute the strength of unions by gaining access to cheap scared labor without fear of consequences.
Now the right's new Scapegoat '08 is the very illegal immigrants who have made big donors' profits increase. Maybe the right will have to go back to slamming gays or welfare queens. Where's Lee Atwater when you need him?
Kucinich said it best. No human beings are illegal. PERIOD! and yet xenophobes and racists don't like what he has to say about the immigration issue.
xoites defends Constitution @ 37:
These cases are awful, but the numbers are minute compared to the overall number of immigrants. You also conveniently fail to note one crucial element - these people came here of their own volition, as written in one of the very articles you reference;
Don't misunderstand me; I'm not trivializing the suffering some immigrants endure. I'm saying that immigrants aren't the problem - ILLEGAL is the problem. I'm the son of an immigrant to this country, I have no issue with anyone of any color or nationality. I have a problem with the laws and the exploitation of illegal immigrants who are encouraged to come here illegally by big business.
I wish I could have argued like that when I was 34! Rachel is so right, nothing has changed, just the repukes have nothing else to talk about. War, illegals.
There are bigger problems in the USA, like the AIPAC and Israeli biased media we have to deal with day in and day out. Undocumented workers are a tiny problem compared to war and destruction in our name.
Certain people are angry that any American might want to protect its own Borders, might want to make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely.
Can you say -- ILLEGAL Alien.
Let me see if I correctly understand the thought pocess behind these protests.
For Argument sake, let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, I've done all the things you don't like to do. I do all of your yard work because I am hard-working and honest, except for when I broke into your house.
By the way my wife made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. She also is hard-working and honest (except for that breaking in part).
According to the protesters:
You are required to let me stay in your house.
You are required to add me to your family's insurance plan.
You are required to educate my kids.
You are required to provide other benefits to me and to my family.
If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.
It's only fair, after all, because:
You have a nicer house than I do,
I'm just trying to better myself.
I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house.
And what a deal it is for me!!! I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.
Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you to learn MY LANGUAGE!!! So you can Communicate with me.
Why can't people see how ridiculous This is?!
Only in the United States of America.
If you think this is a racist outlook, PLEASE NOTICE, nowhere is race mentioned implicitly or explicitly. It applies regardless of race -- Illegal is Illegal. I empathize with your plight. I welcome you with open arms as long as you come here LEGALLY.
Fuck Chris Matthews. Pat is such a serious commentator, isn't he?
Thank you for your time.
George @ 78:
What I see as ridiculous is your histrionics and the wild hypotheticals and bs you guys come up with.
Did your ancestors kick Custer's arse? No? Well I guess that makes you an immigrant too. Could have been from illegal immigrants, for all we know. Or immigrants who killed the indigenous people on the continent. That was ok, was it? The small pox blankets sent to Indians, the slaughter of their foodstuff, the denigration of the land, forced death marches, and relegation to reservations.
The thing that makes any immigration illegal is arbitrary. It's laws made up by the "We got ours now so you all can fuck off now and go away" groups of people like you. People who would be trying their arses off to get here were the positions reversed. It is not a law of physics being broken. It does not negate the fact that all of us on this Earth are related, brothers and sisters-Family of Man.
Learn some empathy, if it's in your ken, immigrant.
tancreado is from colo. i'm originally from colo. i have family still in colo that i visit yearly. unfortunately my Mexican- American family and friends or as they call themselves back in colo "spanish" support the conservative values. I know when i go back when you step through the door, you leave religion and politics on the outside. They still support the conservative values. They live to serve God and country. Just wish they would get something on the radio and tv beside rush and fox. there might be a change when they wake up and find that people like Tancreado are not the friend of people of color... any color.
miss_kitty @ 80:
Actually the "native americans" are immigrants too so [Deleted-Sitemonitor]
I say suspend all legal immigration until the illegals are all deported
It's our country, we took control of it most recently and we should maintain control of it.
Uncontrolled immigration has a negative effect on our public services, schools and culture and our environment. Unassimilated macho gang-bangers don't improve our country.
We should pick and choose the best and brightest as immigrants. Send the rejects away.
OneFish @ 82:
Your point is what with this statement? I am well aware of that fact.
Thanks for telling me to shut the fuck up-that's a great way to give yourself cred in a discussion. going to the billo school of discourse, eh? And the '-A.' stands for what? Nevermind it's a rhetorical question.
The rest of your xenophobic screed-not worth the time.
Does Rachel Maddow's mother know that Rachel talks like that. Get the soap!
The politicians sold the US people a very expensive war on drugs.
The politicians sold the US people a very expensive war in Iraq.
Neither is won.
You're paying for both without victory or an end in sight...
Now, the politicians want to sell you a war on immigration - are they telling you how much it's going to cost you?
OneFish @ 82:
The best part of that idea is its feasibility
Yeah and a 700 mile fense is the answer ROFLMAO!
RETARDS!
An important reason for Progressives NOT to get suck(er)ed into the immigration debate is because Progressives end up wasting time and energy solving a problem deliberately created by the Wealthy Right.
NAFTA and little oversight of US firms willing, nay eager, to employ illegal immigrants creates the impetus for illegal immigration to occur. What the Right creates they then use to pit the Working Class in the U.S. against their natural allies from Mexico. And then they compound the crime by demanding Progressives suggest solutions (oddly, "Eat the Rich" is not considered an acceptable answer).
Immigration is a Rove-style lose-lose situation for anyone but the Wealthy Right who created the situation in the first place. The best answer is "crack down on companies that illegally employ undocumented workers" and don't get drawn in any further.
Sitemonitor: Why is this C&L thread (of 6:35AM today) being reposted at top of thread?
whatever101 @ 74:
Kucinich gets it, racist and xenophobe idiots don't.
Doggiebobo @ 89:
I was going to ask the same thing, but I see ol' Doggiebobo already addressed it. Maybe Nicole is looking for more time in the spotlight!
miss_kitty @ 80:
You are implying that native americans are not immigrants. You use of language is as manipulative and deceptive as any right-wing nut.
Everyone here is an immigrant or descended from immigrants. Everyone.
Mexican claims on US territory are based on what? Bullshit land grants that are part of a Spanish colonial period? Big deal. The Spanish lost. It's the US now. piss off La Raza.
Groups of people have been abusing, exploiting, displacing and killing each other for what is, relative to our tiny lifespans, essentially forever. It sounds wrong and it looks wrong when you read about it or see it. So what? That doesn't mean that this group of people has no right to make the rules for the piece of territory that it controls today.
If you want to call that "I got mine now fuck off" go right ahead. If it makes the country a little cleaner or a little less populated or a little safer it's fine with me.
anyway, I think it's good for Pat to have to go up against a lesbian and have his junk handed to him.
Maybe he'll become a more compassionate conservative.
Same old crap, the men drown out the women. What asses.
uk visa @ 85:
Well, at least the war profiteering can proceed apace right here at home and create a few jobs.
So, illegal immigration (which by the way is a deliberate political policy not some sort of accident of human biology) is not a war on the middle and lower classes here in the US?
Controlling immigration is neither xenophobic nor racist.
Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Note to Matthews and Buchanan: you're both immigrants! You surely must have heard of the term Native Americans by now. Would these nitwits have stopped Columbus and their own elders from entering the country? Immigration is what made America as it is today, duh.
Well we have the hard working and quiet Mexican immigrant versus the ever yapping and complaining American do nothing.
Gets stranger by the day.
Bill Thomas @ 90:
Simply disagreeing with you about immigration policy defines someone as a xenophobe and a racist?
You are narrow-minded and ignorant and clearly unwilling to discuss an issue with the intent of learning something.
L.A. Confidential @ 98:
Nonsense.
OneFish @ 100:
Whens the last time you put on a roof?
Ship them in for work in the morning. Ship them back home after work. Call it outsourcing, and Dubya will grant you a tax break. It's a win, win.
Let's see, 20 Million illegal immigrants in the US.
The load on the ecosystem is huge:
energy
cars
pollution
more consumer STUFF in landfills
over-developed countryside
less wildlife
more livestock
more insecticide
more fertilizers
and so on
And what do these people do? Work hard and contribute to the economy - that's precisely the fucking problem. 280 million is too many. 300 is more than 280. Very simple.
Hardly xenophobia or racism kitty-twit
Illegal immigration is a massive problem that needs to be dealt with. Anyone in the USA who is breaking our immigration laws should be deported.
That's how they handle the problem in Mexico, it's how we should handle it in America.
No one on the left is willing to do anything about this problem -- other than giving amnesty to anyone who wants to come into the country and for us to have open borders.
But of course, everyone on the left is terrified of being called racist. So they won't do anything about the illegal immigration problem. In Los Angeles the schools are overrun, the hospitals are overrun, the problem keeps getting worse. And our government does nothing about it.
Beau Jangles @ 102:
"Outsourcing" already has a meaning, plus it's not Rovian enough. May I suggest "rightsourcing"?
OneFish @ 100:
Chinese proverb of the day:
Real man recognize strength and weakness. Real man overcome his weakness, not ignore them.
(OK it's not really a Chinese proverb)
OneFish @ 103:
322,834,000 2012 projection.
Wow... What THE FUCK! I mean... just fucking WOW! You had the gaul to say that shit here!? Take your war-profiteering ass back to the rightwing blogs where you belong.
I like Rachel, but she is simply wrong on something here. She's telling us illegal immigration has not changed in 35 years. She grew up on the west coast and now lives on the east coast, and her statement shows she obviously has not spent much time in the fly over states very much in her 30some years. Things have changed quite a bit in small town America in this regard. She's simply wrong on this point.
Rachel maddow is ammmmaaaaazingly bright and it is great to see her getting picked up on these other shows now. IF ONLY THEY'D LET HER TALK. But then again, if they did, it'd be all over for the Pat Buchanans wouldn't it?
L.A. Confidential @ 101:
I paid part of my tuition by doing exactly that in the summer: roofing, concrete, painting, carpentry. Even now, with my Ivy League education and comfortable lifestyle I do my own tiling, plumbing and landscaping including moving 20 tons of sandstone slabs and volcanic boulders to their resting places in my back yard a few years ago. Why do all that hard work myself? Easy, I don't like poor strangers hanging around my house. I don't care what color they are or what language they speak.
whens? Learn to write in English. Maybe you'll get some "cred"
Vintage @ 104:
Looks like you made a wrong turn on your way to the O'reilly Factor bulletin board.
PS: Not only is your post devoid of any facts. It's severely lacking in the logic department. There's no point in wasting time addressing your drivel.
Sirota is all that. Once again he cuts through the crap. The pugs are sooo desparate, This is one of the only things left they think they can grab. Problem is, Sirota's right about the corporatist dems too. The corporatists (dems or pugs) throw this issue out to try and divide the electorate. If the working person is concerned about a brown person taking their job, these assholes will have another straw man to blame the decline of the middle class and the erosion of the working middle class' standard of living on.
OneFish @ 111:
"whens?"? Learn proper punctuation. You forgot the quotation marks. Maybe you'll manage in engaging people in a conversation instead of wasting bandwidth to announce that you've got Ivy League education. Bush went to Yale and look what a success story that man has become.
jwf @ 32:
Who cares? They're both racist pricks
Lynnianaa @ 108:
I'm no more a right winger than Ralph Nader.
I think the word you are looking for is "gall." It is used as a synonym for "nerve". Gaul is an old word for what is now called France.
You think I like war profiteering? You're even more ignorant than Miss Kitty.
We have been ripped off by fascists to the tune of trillions of dollars. At least if the money were misspent here the little folks in the good old USA might get a little trickle-down.
Given your lack of command of the language I might suspect that you are an illegal alien. Go home.
Cheney @ 114:
Touche, Cheney. Hee Hee
Xenophobia, it's not just for breakfast! If only the two oldest could have been beheaded on TV.. Anyway, this is such a bullshit issue. It really is now "blame the Mexicans", the latest greatest bullshit issue since gay marriage. I don't care who you are; REpublican or Democrat, you're not only xenophobic but you are a complete and utter moron if you think that illegal immigrants are taking our jobs!! Keep beating the stupid drum and eventually you'll be really stupid!
OneFish @ 116:
Didn't I order you to go to bed. Laura will tuck you in. By the way, don't forget who's boss here. Just because you're Ivy League educated doesn't mean you can shoot your mouth left and right.
I will give you a take on how to solve illegal immigration you haven't gotten anywhere else.
1) The U.S. needs to stop illegally interfering with Mexico's Presidential Elections - This is the single most important contributor to illegal immigration and NO ONE discusses it. In Mexico's last Presidental election there's compelling evidence that Data Mining company Choicepoint illegally fixed the win for conservative Felipe Calderon. Lopez Obrador, the liberal, who talked about enacting his own FDR New Deal, and creating millions of jobs for unemployed Mexicans was denied his victory. Just imagine how different illegal immigration might be if Obrador did for Mexico what FDR did for America in its time of crisis? Unfortunately we'll never know. The U.S. will NEVER allow Mexico to have a liberal President because its corporate masters need the cheap labor.
http://www.gregpalast.com/stealing-mexico#more-1439
2) End NAFTA. No brainer. This has hurt Mexico's economy badly.
3) Many thousands of Mexican farmers are out of business. They cannot compete with the subsidized food America exports to them. We need to end this practice. Then Mexican farmers, and all their workers, will no longer need to come here to work on our farms. Farming is a huge business in Mexico. The impact this has had on illegal immigration cannot be understated.
4) Levy MASSIVE fines on employers hiring illegal immigrants. Half a million dollars per worker. This'll scare the holy hell out of them. You see, the problem is primarily ILLEGAL EMPLOYMENT, not immigration. This problem did NOT exist prior to Ronald Regan when there were only 1 or 2 million illegals here.
http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/views06/0329-21.htm
OneFish @ 116:
As a psychologist, I would like to inform you that I have already diagnosed your disorder. You have what is commonly referred to in psychology as Delusions of Grandeur. Look it up. You might learn a thing or too (bait left intentionally).
a guy @ 113:
We know that it is corporate behavior and its political influence that are a contributing factor to the decline of the middle class. Fine. Work on fixing that. Campaign finance reform would be a good place to start. The legal status of the corporation as an individual might be another avenue to follow. Tariffs are not so evil either. Unions have a part to play.
I'm always amazed how politicians can narrow an entire topic to a single buzzline and a stupid binary argument. It is possible to approach a problem from multiple angles simultaneously. So if your agenda is, as is mine, the protection and nurture of the middle class then you have to include immigration policy. No, deporting 20 million illegals is not "the" solution to the difficulties facing the middle class but it is a part of the solution that cannot be ignored. If illegals need to be the pawns in the battle between the American Middle Class and the American Bloatocracy, so be it, they came here voluntarily. At least most of them did, but that's a separate problem.
Once the middle class wins the battle over who runs the country then we can join forces with our new corporate friends and figure out how to survive in the competitive global arena.
Cheney @ 119:
The point is not where I went to school, the point is I am both educated and hard-working. Don't try to sell me the mythological struggle of the humble, hardworking immigrant versus the lazy, ignorant whitey. Don't try to pigeonhole your illegal immigrants. We have some really bad ones here in California. We have drug runners, gang-bangers and car thieves in addition to the "honest" hardworking illegal immigrants.
I dare you to leave your car parked in parts of Stockton or Modesto. The central valley i's the car theft capital of the US. I think most of the vehicles wind up in Mexico within 8-10 hours.
I value the American middle and working class. I am not "anti-immigrant" but I think you are all to quick to label a complex subject as bad racists versus good non-racists. In other words, you are out of your depth.
If I'm not permitted to work in Mexico without permission, why should Mexicans be permitted to work in USA without permission.
Okay, OneFuck. You can put down the dictionary and thesaurus now. Can anyone honestly say they give one ounce of horseshit about your futile attempt to be the grammar police? Yeah, didn't think so. Stfu, sir.
You're an independent? Lulz!
Yes, you are a war-profiteering warwhore. Otherwise why mention it in a thread that's completely unrelated to the subject of... war-profiteering?
And yes, you are a racist according to that little "go home" statement of yours. Thanks for falling for taking my troll-trap.
Go back home to the right-wing blogs.
miss_kitty @ 80:
well said miss kitty!
Wait, something in this does not compute.
If "employers looking to maximize profits" want high levels of illegal immigrants to compete with American workers for wages and thus drive wages down, and "politicians ... refuse to confront it because doing so would mean challenging their financiers," then what exactly is Emmanuel doing? And Tancredo, scuzzbucket or not, for that matter? It certainly sounds like they're attempting to cut off the very flow of illegal labor that you just got done saying that their financiers are paying them to preserve (or increase, for that matter). This argument seems to be cutting in two completely different directions.
Keep in mind that the most pro-open borders mainstream media source is the Wall Street Journal editorial board. They've even gone so far as to come out in favor of a constitutional amendment mandating open borders.
I don't think Emmanuel is out of line here at all. His job is to help Democrats win elections; in the polls, even the Democrat rank and file are concerned about the pernicious effects of illegal immigrants/undocumented workers, and centrist swing voters in the states the Democrats dearly want to coax away from the Republican column even more so. Likewise, why should he care about corporate profiteers' appetite for workers operating outside established legal wage and hour protections? Just because they're bankrolling him? If that's the case, then he ought to be applauded for standing against the interests of those writing him massive checks, and yet he's getting precisely the opposite reaction here. He's found an issue that's both a winning political issue (to the extent that polls are reliable--apply all the usual caveats here) and is precisely the opposite of selling out to big business. Where's the rub?
That's right, ladies and gentlemen. . . immigration has never been a problem until 2007. Now, despite the President's alleged war crimes, immigration needs to be solved. [/snark]
You see the folly of the DNC argument: They're pretending that immigration issues, despite the Great Depression, are so dire, that they require exclusive attention of Congress; but there is "no time" to cover/investigate the impeachment efforts.
There will be no perfect immigration bill; and immigration issues will always be with us. This President and VP will not be in office forever. That's no an excuse to do nothing; it's a reason to act now and find what evidence there is, to expedite their removal. Immigration issues, in my view, are detractors from the real issue: Impeachment.
Lynnianaa @ 125:
Excuse me, Chlamydia, but I did not bring up the subject of war profiteering. The subject of a 700 mile fence was broached by "VegasRage" and a "war on immigration" was brought up by "UK Visa."
What do you call the financial behavior that our government would engage in if we waged war by building said fence? Or is that too much of a stretch for you?
I'm not trying to be the grammar police but I have to admit that it is fun to goad the sloppy now and then when the mistakes are obviously not simple typos.
Are you comfortable when you go to the Home Depot and the parking lot is full of unemployed men trying to find piecework? Someday I may be unemployed and want some piecework. I feel that citizens should have first dibs on the fruits of an unstable, immoral consumer economy.
miss_kitty @ 80:
Yes, we were immigrants. Legal Immigrants - Came over thru Ellis Island. Using your logic, I guess the thing that makes any murder as illegal is arbitrary also. Laws are one of those things that make up a civilized society. I have no problem with those that want to change the law. I DO have a problem with those that break the law, then try to rub my nose in it and then try to make as if it's my fault and I should be more understanding. I fail to understand what part of ILLEGAL do you not understand.
bilhelm-X @ 118:
So you hire slave labor to wash your underware? And, you like having people die in the desert and in the back of locked trucks trying to get here to wash your underware and watch your kids while you work at a big important job? Don't call me stupid you're the one not thinking.
crap, I is stuped, ....underware?? underwear jeeezzzz
I'm tired of eugenicist dads getting security dad billing in the media
7 BIGBONEDED Says: I wonder if anybody else is as tired of looking and listening to that old fool Buchannan as I am? The man has absolutely no viable credentials . Why someone would consider his opinion valid is way beyond me , especially when the other side of the debate is offered by the totally relevant and intelligence of Rachel Maddow , and of course Tweety is one of the worst at his so called JOB that there is . Most of them seem like spoiled children who never listen and only speak to hear themselves talk. Rachel needs her own show she is lightyears ahead of most of the morons offered up at MSNBC.
Rachel needs to replace tweety. She is polite. tweety doesn't know the meaning of the word. Kieth is polite, also.
I'm so tired of these impolite screamers on the news shows. :(
Another Smokescreen @ 128:
This is a large, wealthy country. We are capable of dealing concurrently with multiple problems that have multifaceted solutions. The question to ask is "Why are we so easily paralyzed by single issues?"
Either our politicians don't want to do anything so they allow themselves to be paralyzed, OR, it is the people who are so easily paralyzed and our Plutocrats use this technique to numb us to what they are actually doing. Every time our blank-faced stares show signs of wearing off they give us another dose.
The worst part of this argument is so many 'liberals' are willing to allow the fear-mongering neocons to smear the distinction between:
Illegal Aliens
Immigrants
Truly a world of difference. The worst part is how many IMMIGRANTS fall into that trap -- don't be a tool of the necons. As to the 'brown people' question... that isn't really what we're talking about (as much as the neocons would have you think that). Otherwise we'd be talking about raising the quality of life and economic opportunities of those in our sister Mexico and Guatamala. And, frankly, we aren't and still don't give a damn.
we could easily begin impeaching Cheney/Bush/Rice/Scalia/Thomas/Alito/Roberts...
AND alter the landscape for the middle class including immigration enforcement and corporate rights changes.
There are 435 reps in the House. Am I mistaken or were the various committees formed to allow some specialization and division of labor.
Forgive me for being naive, but it just looks like our so-called representatives like to paralyze US with single issues to prevent US from telling them how to govern.
swarmofkillermonkeys @ 136:
Well, the "Liberal" crowd is very quick to point out the Right's conflating of Iraq and 9-11 so I know they understand the concept. What amazes me is the rapidity with which they come back with slurs of "racist" and "xenophobe" when I disagree with Kucinich on immigration policy. My family is what you might call mixed-race. I think what bothers me the most is that the so-called Left, while not quite as stoopid as the Right, can be dumb as a box of rox. My lifelong choice of not joining any particular group has turned out to be correct again and again. I fear that this next election cycle I will be faced with the choice between Corporatists who are Evil and corporatists who are Fuckwits. It is a very painful choice.
Love how Tweety blocks "the woman" from talking on a man's issue. They both know she has the right answers and right solutions and won't let her talk.
YOU WOULD NEVER HEAR TWEETY QUESTION ANYONE HARDER. WHAT AN A-HOLE BLOWHARD.
Keep up the softball you fake, phony piece of crap. And keep bowing to the White House when it comes to asking certain questions.
The irony is that Matthews rebukes Ms. Maddow for [allegedly] laughing during the discussion yet Matthews and Buchanan thought it was humorous when Rachel Maddow correctly pointed out how xenophobic the conservatives and superpatriots look when they advocate this fear mongering issue of Head for the Hills! the illegal immigrants are coming!. This ranks right up there with the other scare card issues of Socialized Medicine! and The Terrorists are coming!.
Someone in the thread touched on it, but to reiterate... By and large, Mexicans are serious Catholics. Anti-Gay rights, Anti-Abortion rights and Pro-big religion.
Tell me again why we're all in a rush to welcome them?
Not that it matters much at this point, but I had this exact conversation with a gentleman business owner in Mexico in 1995. (Col. Jardin, I believe). I we could see it then, why is it now suddenly a revelation?
OneFish @ 122:
Actually, the point is that we only ever have this argument over immigration when the economy sucks. I lived in California for 20years--long enough to go through several business cycles. When things were going well, as in the '90's, no one had any concerns about immigration. It's only when things got shitty that the corporate politicians made it an issue. Has anyone ever noticed that when either Bush has been in charge that 2 things happened. The economy was in recession, followed bya further concentration of wealth through trickle down tax policy and economics. Then to divert attention from these issues, the pugs would throw out "illegal" immigration as the problem to get people like us fighting amongst ourselves. In the '90's,when the focus was on progressive taxation, education and productivity--as well as true entreprenureship--there were plenty of good productive jobs. And bingo. "Illegal" immigration wasn't an issue. Solve the above issues, as Clinton did, and immigration becomes the non-issue it really is!
It's like watching two grumpy,old men argue with a completely coherent adult. Somebody get these guys some apple sauce and send them to bed.
ARRRGH!!! Just watching this video, well more specifically watching those two tired assed jagoffs speak over under and around Maddows is an example why I fucking hate what corporate American and NAFTA and the friggin WTO and everyone who considers themselves globalists is taking our nation down too... And yes, the republican party, totally bereft of anything approaching a useful idea instead goes back to the 'create a straw pony boogieman' playbook of division... fucking assholes..
And the Dems? So far, for the most part, weakass avoidance, fucking wusses!!!
Look folks I hate even getting into the spitting contest on this today.. but my short story is this... legal migration, legal immigration whatever you want to call it.. good, good for the country, good for what we are suppose to stand for...
Illegal immigration, illegal border crossing.. whatever term works for yas as discription, not good, not good at all, bad for the country, bad for the concepts of entering legally and it punks out every man woman and child who wishes to come here legally to start a new life..
All the rest of it are the sordid details of why it exists as an issue... the dirty little secret of at least a half century or better... In this current screwed up iteration, at least since WWII. And the truth is just as Ms. Maddows outlines.. It's nothing new and for the longest time, it served corporate America to take advantage of these people who could be exploited for cheap labor specifically because of the illegal nature behind their presence in this country...
Migrants without any documentation scared into basically indentured servitude out of fear of deportation if they said anything about squalid or unsafe working conditions... Never mind the total wage ripoff.... which is what really put the shine on Mr. CEO's gold filled smile.... And ya just know the corporate bean counters figured out long ago that this would drive wages down everywhere just as soon as they could figure out how to import the work model from the fields to the rest of the employment world.. And NAFTA was the concept, the engine that made that importation shit possible..
And it is a further truth, ugly though it may be, that their presence here, working illegally, especially with NAFTA in place, and without proper papers of citizenship or other types of work visas, drives down wages which drives down the standard of living across the board for everyone. This downward drive occurs in myriad ways, not just wages which is bad enough in and of itself.. And again that serves corporate America just fine...They still have their golden parachutes, their gated communities, their yatchs and other toys...They don't give a rats ass that the rest of us, legal and illegal alike are floundering around them...Fucking bastards...
Finally as regards this matter, I do agree, if we're going to have this pissing contest then it is indeed true that a shitload of fortune 500 CEO's needs to explain their actions under oath in a court of law, and not just over the last ten or 20 years.. this shit goes back generations....And the manner in which business America has conducted itself and taken advantage of this has NEVER been right or moral in the least... We need an honest and and ligitimate immigration policy that is streamlined, and with rules and regs that are actually enforced.... We probably need to shitcan NAFTA before we'll ever be able to address this logically with any sort of integity...
Fuck! I just hate the way this whole thing has been handled.. even before I was born. It's been a shitstorm brewing for the longest time and now it's coming out into the full light of day and it's not pretty and never has been......JD
Erroll @ 140:
What cracks me up is the hardening of the categories syndrome that so many on the left and right seem to suffer.
I think National Health care is a no-brainer - we should've done it long ago, but for citizens, legal residents and legal guests only.
I think the terrorists are both a greater and a lesser threat than our glorious administration makes them out to be. Greater in the sense that I think they're smarter than our leaders and are capable of doing damage. Lesser in the sense that I don't think the risk justifies by any stretch the abuses perpetrated on us by this administration and what is worse, tolerated by us.
The hardening of the categories is a joke: you can't be in either of the clubs unless you buy the whole party line, hook and sinker. It just might be that what is best for this country is neither of the packs of assholes. I think it has to get worse before it gets better. Maybe what Nader did to us 7 years ago was not enough of the right thing. Maybe 4 or 8 years of Guiliani will get peoples heads out of their asses.
Balsac T. Bagher @ 141:
Assimilation required. The only good things about other cultures are the art and the food. Beyond that they need to more or less shed the cruft when they get here. Note that I also think our culture is pretty superficial but there is some culture to be found, the best bits and pieces of the various people who have made this country.
The Spanish fucked up every indigenous population they conquered including my wife's country. I'm afraid to openly speak my mind about religion in lovely California for fear of getting my tires cut or my cat killed for offending some false-virgin-loving scheisskopf who hasn't the foggiest beginning of a semblance of a clue about the meaning of freedom of speech.
And as far as the food brought to California by our south of the border brethren, well, it mostly sucks here. You have to go to New Mexico to get anything decent along those lines.
I hear Cheech Marin has a great collection of Hispanic art. I would like to see an exhibition.
A little off the subject. Here's a guy who would do absolutely ANYTHING to be president--including pissing away his last shred of self-respect and dignity
http://www.rawstory.com/news/mochila/McCain_says_he_d_even_use_Rove_s_he...
a guy @ 148:
McCain did, for a very short time, look like a human being. The he embraced GWB and endorsed the war in Iraq in spite of the "black child" push polling that Rove did in ?South? Carolina.
He's now a complete and total whack-job. Guiliani-McCain, that's what America needs!!! Crank the fever higher so we can find a cure.
Balsac T. Bagher Says: Someone in the thread touched on it, but to reiterate… By and large, Mexicans are serious Catholics. Anti-Gay rights, Anti-Abortion rights and Pro-big religion.
By and large, Americans are noodle brained evangelicals, anti-gay rights, anti-abortion rights and pro-big religion (as a business, of course.) What exactly is your point?
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