I did a post on this a week or two ago....it's a sad, sick pattern.

http://www.ginandtacos.com/forums/000745.html

Watch the video, the Nazi Brownshirts are among us, soon to be followed the Geheim Staatz Polizei, AKA the secret state police, AKA, the Gestapo. Andrew Meyer was merely exercising his 1st amendment rights...

When the government creates and condones a lawless, fascist police state, one result will be lawless, fascist police.

I wrote something similar on DKOS the other day

Tasers are not the problem, the excessive use of force is

Seriously ban tazers. I just saw the video of that poor scared Polish man.

It plays out like a murder.

He didn't deserve to die let alone be tazered by 4 obviously lazy and cowardly policeman. They should all lose their jobs.

This is the future, folks. Comply or die -- or wait, Tasers aren't supposed to kill people... are they? are they?

While Meyer got a lot of attention for his tasering at UF, those of us in the area are also aware that a schizophrenic old woman in a wheelchair was tasered to death in Green Cove springs (about an hour from UF near Jacksonville; fromer home of those Freebird boys) about a week later. She was brandishing a knife, and was tasered for over 2 minutes.

That's right, an ELDERLY woman in a WHEELCHAIR.

Green Cove Springs

Tasers aren't supposed to kill people, but they do. It's easier for police to use a Taser than strength to subdue an unruly person, so unfortunately they resort to Tasers. However, the guy at the Kerry speech, the pregnant woman - were these people unruly? I think not. Disobedient? Maybe. Is the use of Tasers evidence of a growing fascism? Very possibly. These devices must be banned for the indefinite future, because no officer can find out soon enough if the person he or she considers Tasing will be able to withstand the electrical shock without dying.

Spirula, I used to have a friend who lived in Green Cove Springs.

PoP,

I'm sorry.

:lol: Spirula, I knew you were going to say that. Last time I saw that town it was a pretty sad place.

PoP,

My kids live in Ponte Vedra, so I cut through there several times a month. At least your friend wasn't from Starke or Waldo. Crackerstan's finest.

I don't like tasers as much as the next guy, but when you start throwing out terms like "torture" "fascist" or "Nazi", you just sound stupid.

Bill in Chicago @ 5:

Is this for real? This whole tazering thing reminds me of all those shark stories the Summer before 9/11.

I mean, did that kid down in Florida really get it any worse than Rodney King? Yes, police brutality is a problem, but it's always been around (and probably always will be). This is just the latest hi-tech manifestation of that, and is getting tazered really any worse than just plain getting beat up?

And are any of these anecdotes really evidence of an escalation in police brutality? I mean, I really do have to laugh a little when you point to the Canadian Mounties as an example of escalating authoritarianism. Sure, exactly what we've all suspected of the Mounties - they're just one step away from the Waffen SS.

When you give someone that kind of power, and the authority to use it without fear of repercussion (fortunately, the age of video surveillance and the advent of the Taser were concurrent - unlike in the old days of beatings when it was word against word), they are just one step away from the Waffen SS. It's human nature.

Have you seen the videos of recent Taserings? Were these people legitimate threats? One guy was participating in a political debate, for Christ's sake. Waffen SS. Indeed.

Posting this is a really bad idea. These are the types of posts that make us liberals look really bad.

Yeah, sometimes tazers kill. So sometimes does tackelling, punching, shooting, choking and even handcuffing. But statistically tazering causes very few deaths, which is why it is a non-lethal method.

More importantly, if not tazering than what can be used? Keeping in mind that the safety of the officers needs to be the utmost concern. Because I can guarantee you the next thing on the list you allow to be used that still allows an officer to keep a safe distance will also sometimes cause a death.

They aren't 'fascists' to use a force method that immobilizes a suspect while keeping them at a physically safe distance; they're smart.

It is these types of things that make us look like idiots. Please just stop.

This kind of reminds me of my friend who teaches. She has twenty-five kids in her class and one
who is constantly disruptive. She can't do anything to him because it's his God given right to express himself.

realitybased @ 33:

Posting this is a really bad idea. These are the types of posts that make us liberals look really bad.

Yeah, sometimes tazers kill. So sometimes does tackelling, punching, shooting, choking and even handcuffing. But statistically tazering causes very few deaths, which is why it is a non-lethal method.

More importantly, if not tazering than what can be used? Keeping in mind that the safety of the officers needs to be the utmost concern. Because I can guarantee you the next thing on the list you allow to be used that still allows an officer to keep a safe distance will also sometimes cause a death.

They aren't 'fascists' to use a force method that immobilizes a suspect while keeping them at a physically safe distance; they're smart.

It is these types of things that make us look like idiots. Please just stop.

It's not that they are being used that's the problem, it's when they are being used and is this use justifiable? I see nothing wrong with discussing this.

realitybased @ 33:

Blah blah blah, nonsense, blah blah blah... Keeping in mind that the safety of the officers needs to be the utmost concern. blah blah blah blah blah....

Yeah, I will have to agree with you, the safety of a police officer must come before that of a pregnant woman and her unborn child.
And lord knows that elderly women in wheelchairs are akin to Cujo from a Stephen King movie.
Point well made, genius.

hua?

This is an ugly vicious hateful country full of sick twisted fascists., The sooner this disgusting country destroys itself the better. Its leaders do not deserve to live and the sheep that tolerate the rulers have proven themselves to be craven cowards.

Spock @ 28:

This dick needed to be tased!

Are you referring to yourself here?
That man did not speak English. He also had endured a roughly 18 hr flight and then had been forced to wait for another 10 hours at the airport and apparently, the airline did nothing to help him understand why he was having to wait so long to be released to his mother who was picking him up. The man who shot the film said that no one watching ever thought he was a danger to anyone--just extremely agitated and not understanding what was going on. When security arrived the man filming heard them decide to use tazers before they even approached this man.
This was abhorrent and you are seriously lacking if you think this man was deserving of this.

realitybased:

No this doesn't make us look like idiots. Trussing someone up and tasering them IS torture. Zapping someone because you can completely humiliate, hurt, and immoblize them without leaving a mark on them IS something to be concerned about. This is going to start happening more and more because in many counties there is simply not enough oversight for using these devices. Mouthy suspect? Taser. It's a license to abuse and mistreat the public and if they get lippy about it, zap them.

You know I am going to take a moment to talk about the police for a second. I am in my early thirties and when I was a kid I really loved and respected the police. I wanted to be a cop for a while (doesn't every boy, at some point?). Nowadays I despise the police. I have had so many bad experiences with them barking shit at me for no reason, or being completely useless when I am the victim of a crime, or acting completely inappropriately with people I know, that I don't like the cops anymore. They are not helpful or useful to the average person. I think they are, by and large, a bunch of pricks who act like they are little soldiers at war and you are the enemy. And I am a white professional male. How bad must it be for a minority if a white middle class guy thinks this?

There isn't anything wrong with it at all - somebody needed their authoritarian fix for the day.

I heard a mother of a teenaged guy call into the radio here in Toronto and tell how her son who walked into the police station downtown after having a bottle broken over his head in a nightclub. Apparently he became 'loud' after not recieving any help(probably drunk).

Anyway - 4 cops drag him on to his back - one STANDS on his FACE - the tazor comes out and while the kid is screaming that he has a PACEMAKER they proceed to shock him anyway. Apparently he had to have his pacemaker sorted out - but it sounds to me he was pretty lucky(not so lucky in trying to do something about it as the mother was told that there was no 'evidence' for her to do anything about it, despite happening in a police station where the whole damned place is under 24 video monitoring....)

These things need to be banned. I don't care what anybody says - 50 000 volts is a lethal weapon. Period.

With a gun - you don't pull it out unless you REALLY need it(generally speaking).

Ban these f**king things. Now....

the police tasered a pregnant woman in Ohio

I for one can sleep soundly tonight knowing such a threat to America has been duly dealt with.

Why don't you throw her off a balcony? What are you, chicken?

pissed off patricia @ 38:

realitybased @ 33:

Posting this is a really bad idea. These are the types of posts that make us liberals look really bad.

Yeah, sometimes tazers kill. So sometimes does tackelling, punching, shooting, choking and even handcuffing. But statistically tazering causes very few deaths, which is why it is a non-lethal method.

More importantly, if not tazering than what can be used? Keeping in mind that the safety of the officers needs to be the utmost concern. Because I can guarantee you the next thing on the list you allow to be used that still allows an officer to keep a safe distance will also sometimes cause a death.

They aren't 'fascists' to use a force method that immobilizes a suspect while keeping them at a physically safe distance; they're smart.

It is these types of things that make us look like idiots. Please just stop.

It's not that they are being used that's the problem, it's when they are being used and is this use justifiable? I see nothing wrong with discussing this.

Because tazers can kill someone, even if unintentionally, the standards under which they're used should be the same as a police officer's gun.

What the hell is the difference between the death of the man in Vancouver and the death of a man who a cop is tryin' to merely wound with a bullet, but the bullet "accidentally" nicks the victim's femural artery? Outside of the chance that a bullet might injure an innocent bystander, there's no difference.

The issues surrounding this event have been reduced to some basic questions about
the appropriate use of the policeman's right to use force. Was this such an event?
It is as though the tazer absolves the authorities of responsibility. What if the death had been caused by a billy club, would the death have been any more or less unjust?
The initial reports before the video came out was that the man was combative, only 3 officers were involved and that the victim left them little choice. The officers remained on duty for a month after the fact.
As pointed out above the police confiscated this video evidence and held it for a month until it was legally forced back into the hands of the owner.
 
Of note reported today the RCMP have sent investigators to Poland to look at the victims past in hope of finding justification for blaming the victim.
http://thegallopingbeaver.blogspot.com/
The RCMP is seeking approval to travel to Poland in order to gather information about Robert Dziekanski, the Polish man who died after being Tasered at Vancouver airport last month, CTV News has learned.
The RCMP told CTV News it would seek to investigate, among other things, Dziekanski's medical history as well as his criminal history in Poland.

The information would be used in several of the ongoing inquiries and investigations launched in Canada.

Andy K @ 54:

pissed off patricia @ 38:

realitybased @ 33:

Posting this is a really bad idea. These are the types of posts that make us liberals look really bad.

Yeah, sometimes tazers kill. So sometimes does tackelling, punching, shooting, choking and even handcuffing. But statistically tazering causes very few deaths, which is why it is a non-lethal method.

More importantly, if not tazering than what can be used? Keeping in mind that the safety of the officers needs to be the utmost concern. Because I can guarantee you the next thing on the list you allow to be used that still allows an officer to keep a safe distance will also sometimes cause a death.

They aren't 'fascists' to use a force method that immobilizes a suspect while keeping them at a physically safe distance; they're smart.

It is these types of things that make us look like idiots. Please just stop.

It's not that they are being used that's the problem, it's when they are being used and is this use justifiable? I see nothing wrong with discussing this.

Because tazers can kill someone, even if unintentionally, the standards under which they're used should be the same as a police officer's gun.

What the hell is the difference between the death of the man in Vancouver and the death of a man who a cop is tryin' to merely wound with a bullet, but the bullet "accidentally" nicks the victim's femural artery? Outside of the chance that a bullet might injure an innocent bystander, there's no difference.

There is so much wrong with what you just said.

#1. When a cop fires their sidearm, the intent is to stop the assailant.
#2. Wrestling someone to the ground CAN kill them, should it also only be used under the same circumstances as using their sidearm?

The United Nations has declared that tasering is TORTURE. http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/1463883
The way it is implemented in this country, without regard to the condition of its targets/victims and without any sort of restraint points that it is being used as instrument for subjugation and control. Tasering is now used in a wide variety of circumstances, even if there there is no reason for concern for the safety police or bystanders. We can start at the state level and demand our legislatures pass laws either severely restricting or doing away with tasers altogether. We will not get help from the federal level. They need our fear to continue along their path of domination and control.

Bottom line seems to be that tasering has proven to be lethal force in many circumstances. Its akin to a cop loading his six shooter with 5 rubber bullets and one lead one. Never know when that speeding infraction might be a death sentence. Just another example of just how far off the tracks America has fallen since President Petulant Shit For Brains stole office. How very sad indeed.

Andy K @ 60:

Mr. Anon @ 55:

According to one of my friends who is a police officer, tasering is really low on the force continum. Lower than physical restraint for a few reasons.

1. In almost all cases, tasering does not have any lasting effects that we know of.
2. It allows for fewer injuries to the perp aswell as the police officer. Being tasered means no one breaks your arm when you're struggling.

I'd prefer a good cop, who's honestly doin' his job, end up with a broken arm than see one more person die from a tazerin'.

And I'l betchya that somewhere out there, there's a cop who accidentally killed someone with a tazer who agrees with me.

Personally, I'd rather see how likely it is that someone dies via taser vs other means of restraint before making that kind of call. I'd also like to weigh in how many injuries people who are tasered receive vs those who are not along side those numbers. You know, something not like a kneejerk reaction.

Mr. Anon @ 65:

Andy K @ 60:

Mr. Anon @ 55:

According to one of my friends who is a police officer, tasering is really low on the force continum. Lower than physical restraint for a few reasons.

1. In almost all cases, tasering does not have any lasting effects that we know of.
2. It allows for fewer injuries to the perp aswell as the police officer. Being tasered means no one breaks your arm when you're struggling.

I'd prefer a good cop, who's honestly doin' his job, end up with a broken arm than see one more person die from a tazerin'.

And I'l betchya that somewhere out there, there's a cop who accidentally killed someone with a tazer who agrees with me.

Personally, I'd rather see how likely it is that someone dies via taser vs other means of restraint before making that kind of call. I'd also like to weigh in how many injuries people who are tasered receive vs those who are not along side those numbers. You know, something not like a kneejerk reaction.

There are no bones broken in waterboarding either.

pissed off patricia @ 7:

There's another video of a guy who was stopped for running a stop sign or something. The cop tells him to get out of his car so the guy does. The guy said he thought the cop wanted to show him the sign he was supposed to have run. The guy is following the cop then the cop says something and before you know it, he tasers the guy. It was all caught on the cop's dash camera and the guy's lawyer was able to get the film.

This is what Pissed Off Patricia was talking about.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/you-gotta-ask-me-nicely-by-digby-...

Digby posted about it a couple weeks ago. It's one of the scariest things I've ever seen. We've warned that we were on a slippery slope for some time and if warnings weren't heeded, we were going down. Well, they weren't heeded and that's what's happening.....

After reading this thread and various articles is that beyond the fact that these tasers are dangerous,

(I have been wondering for YEARS about how obvious it is that one person's uncomfortable zapping is another's electrocution and heart attack. All things being equal, could a 90lb woman take the same voltage as my 180lb self can? I don't know anything about the medical science of it, but I'd be surprised if she could. Not to mention that old woman in the wheelchair, the kid with the pacemaker, etc etc)

the other real issue here is that cops need a serious reboot and retraining in the use of force, when to use it, and how much is necessary. What disturbs me as much as anything else is the lack of willingness to negotiate anymore. Why, I dunno. It's just inconvenient to have to spend 30 minutes or more talking down a blithering, but otherwise unarmed and relatively harmless, perp?

Bonkers @ 71:

After reading this thread and various articles is that beyond the fact that these tasers are dangerous,

(I have been wondering for YEARS about how obvious it is that one person's uncomfortable zapping is another's electrocution and heart attack. All things being equal, could a 90lb woman take the same voltage as my 180lb self can? I don't know anything about the medical science of it, but I'd be surprised if she could. Not to mention that old woman in the wheelchair, the kid with the pacemaker, etc etc)

the other real issue here is that cops need a serious reboot and retraining in the use of force, when to use it, and how much is necessary. What disturbs me as much as anything else is the lack of willingness to negotiate anymore. Why, I dunno. It's just inconvenient to have to spend 30 minutes or more talking down a blithering, but otherwise unarmed and relatively harmless, perp?

Uhh, that wasn't meant to be sexist or patronizing. "90lb anybody-else". There, fixed it.

Sorry, ladies. Much love!
:)

TC @ 69:

pissed off patricia @ 7:

There's another video of a guy who was stopped for running a stop sign or something. The cop tells him to get out of his car so the guy does. The guy said he thought the cop wanted to show him the sign he was supposed to have run. The guy is following the cop then the cop says something and before you know it, he tasers the guy. It was all caught on the cop's dash camera and the guy's lawyer was able to get the film.

This is what Pissed Off Patricia was talking about.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/you-gotta-ask-me-nicely-by-digby-...

Digby posted about it a couple weeks ago. It's one of the scariest things I've ever seen. We've warned that we were on a slippery slope for some time and if warnings weren't heeded, we were going down. Well, they weren't heeded and that's what's happening.....

That is absolutely frightening.

realitybased:

You are the type of person that goes quietly into the showers.

Silber's observations are correct of course but limited in scope. Yes Tasers are deadly and YES they are increasingly used by police to correct the impoliteness of the citizenry. But there is so much more out there.

It was only because of the BBC I read about Tyler Peterson, a police officer, who murdered 6 people a month or so ago. No one in the US was reporting it. Yet, a week after that event, a gunman goes on a rampage and injures two or three people (none actually killed) and that becomes frontpage stuff.

When the mouthy college student got tasered I was outraged. More so though when a local Methodist minister justified it by saying to me "you would have preferred they shot him?" This is mindset that was pre-war Germany! Silber doesn't even mention Naomi Klien's new book. He should have.

Me @ 76:

their guns!

Football on the brain right now. Time fer me to put on the green and gold body paint. If ya guys find a way to save the world in the next 6 hours, feel free to do so without me.

;)

Sorry Mirth,but I don't agree with you. I have been 8 months pregnant, twice, and in winter coat, and there is no way in hell to mistake the shape of a heavily pregnant woman. 8 months pregnant and forced face down? Shit, I would struggle too because it would HURT LIKE HELL.

But being tasered for refusing to answer a question? And then the blanket charge of 'obstruction and resisting arrest'? And now you know why, when women need to drop their children off in 'proper' place, they don't.

Andy K @ 76:

Mr. Anon @ 65:

Andy K @ 60:

Mr. Anon @ 55:

I'd prefer a good cop, who's honestly doin' his job, end up with a broken arm than see one more person die from a tazerin'.

And I'l betchya that somewhere out there, there's a cop who accidentally killed someone with a tazer who agrees with me.

Personally, I'd rather see how likely it is that someone dies via taser vs other means of restraint before making that kind of call. I'd also like to weigh in how many injuries people who are tasered receive vs those who are not along side those numbers. You know, something not like a kneejerk reaction.

How many people have got to "accidentally" die fer ya to deem the practice unacceptable, Mr. Anon? The way I see it, every time one of the things is used it is a lethal weapon until proven otherwise.

Here's a question I'd like answered: Do police officers go to the taser more often than they unholstered there guns in the pre-taser(and just how's it spelled, anyway?) days?

How many people died because a taser was unavailable? They died because they were forced to be shot, or died in the struggle. I don't know. Perhaps the taser is a net life saver. I don't have enough information.

As I said earlier, tasers are lower on the force continuum than firearms, so obviously they are going to be used more than a firearm is "unholstered".

Fanon @ 49:

Ok, just to play devil's advocate for a minute.... because I think this is a very complicated issue and just want to throw this piece out for a little feedback... regarding the guy in Vancouver, just because it was his first flight and he was scared, and he had some trouble getting through customs (because of his own failure to speak any of the local languages) and his frustration, did that give him the right to throw furniture, destroy computers and generally cause a huge scene? He was potentially a threat to others, what if that chair he threw had shattered the glass, or hit someone? What if the computer he knocked to the floor started a fire. Look, just b/c you are frustrated, whatever, does that mean you can go on a tear and act like an idiot.? Plus, it's not like he was raised by wolves, he knows a policeman when he sees one (I've recognized them in every country I've been in, language or not) why not calm down when they arrive and try and have some sort of a sign language conversation? or try and indicate that you need an interpreter?

I am not saying the police acted entirely appropriately, I don't know the rules that guide their taser use, and it did seem over the top when there was a large group that could have subdued him. but that doesn't absolve his behavior either.

The problem with what ifs, is that they are ALWAYS there. What if you are late for a flight and a cop sees you walking quickly toward a gate looking "angry"? Better that they tase you and sit on your face for an hour, right? Just in case...

That's no way to live, people.

But as for this guy specifically, he did vandalize the airport and was clearly upset. The cops felt they were under pressure to remove him from the room quickly, before the next flight. That being said, should he have died? I don't think so. We should find out what went wrong, and not do it next time. That's how these things work, isn't it?

I would like to commend the woman that stepped up to do the right thing and try to calm and speak with the man. We need more citizens like that, IMHO.

realitybased @ 33:

Posting this is a really bad idea. These are the types of posts that make us liberals look really bad.

Yeah, sometimes tazers kill. So sometimes does tackelling, punching, shooting, choking and even handcuffing. But statistically tazering causes very few deaths, which is why it is a non-lethal method.

More importantly, if not tazering than what can be used? Keeping in mind that the safety of the officers needs to be the utmost concern. Because I can guarantee you the next thing on the list you allow to be used that still allows an officer to keep a safe distance will also sometimes cause a death.

They aren't 'fascists' to use a force method that immobilizes a suspect while keeping them at a physically safe distance; they're smart.

It is these types of things that make us look like idiots. Please just stop.

Your a fascist if you illegally tase a woman when she is obeying the law, throw her to the ground and stomp on her without even bothering to talk with her first, all in front of her small child. Does a non-violent, unarmed pregnant woman walking away pose a thread to you? To society? Hell NO.

Shoot first, ask questions later. Worked real fucking well in the first 4 years of Iraq too, didn't it? Maybe, just MAYBE that isn't the best way to police a neighborhood.

That IS a problem, and I'm glad they do post "things like this". Take the word "taser" out of either of those situations, you STILL have a big problem.

I believe Amnesty International has already taken a hard stance on tasers.

Frankly, a taser can be an entirely brutal weapon in the wrong hands, which is why the rules need to be strict regarding when they are to be used.

In Canada, the poor Polish man who was tasered is a tragedy but I am also glad that several inquiries have already been issues into the event itself. At least here, police officers who brutalise civilians are held accountable. For all the damage our Conservative government is doing, some standards remain in place.

Fanon @ 50:

Ok, just to play devil's advocate for a minute.... because I think this is a very complicated issue and just want to throw this piece out for a little feedback... regarding the guy in Vancouver, just because it was his first flight and he was scared, and he had some trouble getting through customs (because of his own failure to speak any of the local languages) and his frustration, did that give him the right to throw furniture, destroy computers and generally cause a huge scene? He was potentially a threat to others, what if that chair he threw had shattered the glass, or hit someone? What if the computer he knocked to the floor started a fire. Look, just b/c you are frustrated, whatever, does that mean you can go on a tear and act like an idiot.? Plus, it's not like he was raised by wolves, he knows a policeman when he sees one (I've recognized them in every country I've been in, language or not) why not calm down when they arrive and try and have some sort of a sign language conversation? or try and indicate that you need an interpreter?

I am not saying the police acted entirely appropriately, I don't know the rules that guide their taser use, and it did seem over the top when there was a large group that could have subdued him. but that doesn't absolve his behavior either.

Have you watched the video? As a Canuck, I've seen it a lot because it's our most 'exciting' issue right now. The man, when he was tasered, was doing nothing. They tasered him post-facto for reasons that remain entirely unclear. I couldn't watch the tape without cringing and feeling horrible for the confused man whom could not communicate with anyone around him.

Ironically, the RCMP were severely criticized for their liberal use of pepper spray a few years ago at the APEC summit in Vancouver. It turned out that they were using it more and more frequently, because it was so EASY to 'pacify' the people they were trying to arrest, even if those people were only offering VERBAL resistance. It came to a head at the 1997 APEC summit in Vancouver, where they were just spraing it around, indiscriminately.

So, after a series of painful and embarassing public inquiries into police use of pepper spray, they started to use pepper spray less often, and TASERs MORE often. It really backfired on them, since, as bad as pepper spray is, it's not LETHAL, whereas TASERs CAN be!

LINK to the 1997 APEC protest pepper spray incidents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CWNKp0Uyyw

Mr. Anon @ 85:
As I said earlier, tasers are lower on the force continuum than firearms, so obviously they are going to be used more than a firearm is "unholstered".

Weren't tasers supposed to be a firearm replacement? And from what lists I've seen on the force continuum tasers should be used as the penultimate last resort (use of firearm / deadly force being the last resort).

Given the absence of visible violence police appear to be resorting to using a taser before holds or restraint.

As a recently retired Texas police officer of over 30 years experience, I can say that many of the the comments here fail to make the necessary distinction between the general and the specific. Before I even became a reserve officer with the Dallas Police Department in 1977, the city had been rightly convulsed just four years before by the outrage sparked by the unintended murder of a 12-year-old vending machine burglary suspect, Santos Rodriguez, at the hands of a Dallas police officer who was questioning him while using what he thought was his unloaded revolver in a form of "Russian Roulette". The officer was doing something he was obligated to do - investigate a crime - using a legitimate tool - his revolver - in a completely unethical and ultimately criminal way. The problem was not that the Dallas Police Department was on the verge of becoming the "Waffen SS" or "the Gestapo" or that no Dallas police officers should carry firearms. No one at the Dallas Police Academy ever taught Officer Cain to use his handgun in that manner. The problem was that in his individual desire to solve a crime, Officer Cain became a criminal and spent time behind bars as a result.

The Taser is a weapon that happens to apply its effect through electricity. As such, it can cause injury. A police officer's hands, feet, pepper spray, baton and handgun are also weapons and they can also cause injury. All of those weapons have been and are used appropriately every day even when people are injured and killed as a direct or indirect result of their use. Tasers have saved people from more serious injuries from police officers. Tasers have also been used inappropriately as have hands, feet, pepper spray, batons and handguns.

The point of this is that each individual use of a Taser, just as any other use of police force, must be based on the individual circumstances of its use. To claim that devices like the Taser should be banned because of misuse is to miss the point. The police must always be held account for every use of their authority not just for something that has become the video cause celebre.

Andy K @ 88:

mirth @ 80:

however, the headline 'Police taser pregnant woman in Ohio' is very misleading.

No, it would have been misleadin' if it read 'Police taser pregnant saint in Ohio'. But she was a pregnant woman who the police tasered. In Ohio. Does the original pique the interest? Probably, yeah, 'cause it isn't somethin' ya read every day. But that's "sensational", not misleadin'. What might be misleadin' are the biases the readers bring to the table.

Good point. "Sensational" is the word I should have used.

WTF!!! And this guy died as a result!!??? I... Jesus, just Jesus.. I got nothing, no snark nothing.... This is just sick....And the one fat cop or mountie appears to actually be smiling in one spot just before someone warns the person with the camera to back off and the camera goes all jiggly..... sick... That's really all I can say.......JD

mirth @ 102:

Nowonmai @ 83:

Sorry Mirth,but I don't agree with you. I have been 8 months pregnant, twice, and in winter coat, and there is no way in hell to mistake the shape of a heavily pregnant woman. 8 months pregnant and forced face down? Shit, I would struggle too because it would HURT LIKE HELL.

But being tasered for refusing to answer a question? And then the blanket charge of 'obstruction and resisting arrest'? And now you know why, when women need to drop their children off in 'proper' place, they don't.

The woman was not taser for failing to ask a question. She didn't want her baby because she was "tired" of the child's father's "games" and in a struggle the officer tased her to prevent her leaving with the child because he feared she would harm the child.

What would be your reaction to read that she later killed her one-year-old if she hadn't been prevented from leaving?

But I will agree with you that police officers were able to restrain someone before tasers came along.

Sorry. I wrote that wrong.

First sentence should have read: The woman was not tasered for failing to answer a question.

Bush has turned this country into a NEO NAZI POLICE STATE
spreading false fear with torture and no habies corpus
when the UN-patroit act went into law

Nice post Diana @ 97. Good to read something from someone with real world experience. I would assume that, just like every time you discharge your service weapon, there is an investigation if you discharge your taser?

The exact procedures will vary from agency to agency, but where I worked at the Richardson (TX) PD, the answer is "yes" regarding any use of force resulting in any serious injury even if it were from a hand-to-hand struggle. RPD has considered and rejected the use of the Taser, for a variety of reasons, but officers have attended training where they volunteered to have it used on them to see what the effects were. It would also be "yes" in the case of pepper spray even though it is clearly a non-lethal weapon. It is part of the ethical responsibility of any government that it be able to justify its uses of force. That does not mean that all will be satisfied with the justification, but that is part of why the judiciary is an independent branch.

As a side note, the latest generation of Tasers have a build-in camera that activates whenever the weapon is discharged in order to provide another form of evidence in judging the propriety or impropriety of its use.

Fanon @ 104:

mirth @ 102:

Nowonmai @ 83:

Sorry Mirth,but I don't agree with you. I have been 8 months pregnant, twice, and in winter coat, and there is no way in hell to mistake the shape of a heavily pregnant woman. 8 months pregnant and forced face down? Shit, I would struggle too because it would HURT LIKE HELL.

But being tasered for refusing to answer a question? And then the blanket charge of 'obstruction and resisting arrest'? And now you know why, when women need to drop their children off in 'proper' place, they don't.

The woman was not taser for failing to ask a question. She didn't want her baby because she was "tired" of the child's father's "games" and in a struggle the officer tased her to prevent her leaving with the child because he feared she would harm the child.

What would be your reaction to read that she later killed her one-year-old if she hadn't been prevented from leaving?

But I will agree with you that police officers were able to restrain someone before tasers came along.

Also, the 'safe drop off' zones instituted in some states are for infants, not one year olds. It was really created to prevent people from killing their newborns that noone knew they were carrying. Pretty much everyone in your life knows that you have a one year old in your house. At that point you should be calling DCFS (or whatever it is called in your area).

But, still agree that people were able to be subdued before tasers.

Nice post Diana @ 97. Good to read something from someone with real world experience. I would assume that, just like every time you discharge your service weapon, there is an investigation if you discharge your taser?

Hi Fanon :-) Long time! I hope you are well.

You make a very good point about the age of the child and the difficulty this mother would have had in getting rid of him.

What I wanted to say is that we all read dozens of news stories every day and there is plenty of stuff to enrage us without manufacturing more of it. To me it seems this officer may have prevented a child from being harmed. To pass on the story in a way that suggests otherwise, that the officer was simple taser happy, probably does not tell the true story. The officer perhaps deserves our praise rather than our condemnation.

Hi mirth
Things are good, hope so for you,too!
I just think people get a little knee jerk about this stuff. I am glad I am not a police officer, is all I can say.

Diana Powe @ 97:

great post. now can you explain why there are so many sad stories involving continuous application of tasers in obviously inappropriate situations?

Paul in LA @ 110:

Diana Powe @ 107 "It would also be "yes" in the case of pepper spray even though it is clearly a non-lethal weapon."

Non-lethal? That's incorrect. There are several classes of persons who can die from pepper spray (such as asthmatics). People HAVE died from pepper spray.

Having been felony pepper sprayed in 2003, I can confirm that it is a weird experience, not just blinded eyes but disorientation and other effects, not caused by the blinding, but by the chemical's effect on the brain.

People die from crossing the street, too. Should that be illegal? Come on people. Police are not infallible. Yes, sometimes they are guilty off excessive use of any device of force. They are a microcosim of society at large. Some of them are assholes, the large percentage are not. Put some perspective on it

You know the sad thing about this country?

If this had been a story about Michael Vick tasing his dogs every time he wanted to discipline them, then by God we'd see some outrage!

But pregnant women, or "ethnics"? "Oh, they probably had it coming."... "Serves them right."... The failure to respect the individual is pretty odd. And that has nothing to do with the police! As 97 pointed out, people used to get a LOT more upset by these things. Now it is just another Thursday...

WE are enabling authority to exceed the bounds of acceptable behavior every day. Sometimes the media hype is just hype, sometimes there are hundreds of stories just like these buried...

This website has an entire separate category for "tasering pregnant women" (be sure to read through ALL the entries though). Using a new tool to abuse authority is hardly new.

And remember, if you take the word "taser" out, and replace it with "beating into unconsciousness with a stick" or other methods used to "subdue" a person, does it really sound any better?

Tasering is torture, and terrorism. Its' purpose is not merely to "neutralize potentially violent offenders", as the videos here amply prove.

Its' purpose is to reduce citizens to terrified, unquestioning obedience, who might just be so uppity as to exercise their now-dead Civil Liberties, or labor under the delusion of their "equality". They are being used to ensure absolute control of the sheeple here, at all times. Argue with a cop? Get tasered. Dare to question a cop? Get tasered. Step "out of line" in any way deemed "unsuitable" by some hireling thug? Question a politician at a "open meeting"? Show up at an Impeachment rally or Warcrime protest? Get tasered! And we have the Halliburton Hiltons waiting to accomodate us all.

How did police ever do their jobs to maintain order without tasers for the past several centuries? They had to use intelligence! But now, we have the perfect way of dealing with any human situation: Taser them. Those who blame the victims for these outrageous abuses of power, might soon find themselves on the receiving end of the technique, the next time they find themselves stopped for not wearing their seatbelts, or arguing about a speeding ticket.

And the public accepts this, drinks the kool-aide, and comes up with mealymouthed rationalizations, waffling excuses, and utter bullshit, to legitimate it. "Oh, it's better than a gun", bla bla bla. Rather than "police", we now have "military", who view civilians as "hostiles", and fair game for anything.

For those who think we're on "the slippery slope" down to a police state, allow me to respectfully, at the risk of being tasered, point out WE'RE ALREADY THERE.

Fanon @ 114:

Paul in LA @ 110:

Diana Powe @ 107 "It would also be "yes" in the case of pepper spray even though it is clearly a non-lethal weapon."

Non-lethal? That's incorrect. There are several classes of persons who can die from pepper spray (such as asthmatics). People HAVE died from pepper spray.

Having been felony pepper sprayed in 2003, I can confirm that it is a weird experience, not just blinded eyes but disorientation and other effects, not caused by the blinding, but by the chemical's effect on the brain.

People die from crossing the street, too. Should that be illegal? Come on people. Police are not infallible. Yes, sometimes they are guilty off excessive use of any device of force. They are a microcosim of society at large. Some of them are assholes, the large percentage are not. Put some perspective on it

Are you serious or being sarcastic? If serious, sorry, but that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. There is Devil's Advocate, and then there is a complet failure to understand that shining light on these things -- exposing them and talking about them -- is the DUTY of the citizenry! WE are the check and balance on excessive force. What do you think "daddy Bush" is going to to that for you? Come on! Unfortunately, I hear that shit all the time.

Yes, even if someone is jaywalking, it is illegal to deliberately swerve to mow them down and kill them with your car. Even if you only meant to "stun" them but ended up cutting them in half. Maybe these officers are innocent of any crime, maybe not. But the decision to use the type and amount of force was a DECISION. Not a random accident or "the hand of God" or some such bullshit. "The car" didn't hit the person. YOU did.

Yeah, that's fucking illegal. And immoral. So if you are admitting "sometimes they are guilty off excessive use of any device of force" what is your big problem with the media or this blog simply pointing that out?

I still remember the time in 1997 that New York cops took a Hatian man from a club (who did nothing wrong), CUFFED HIM, and beat him with everything they could on the ride to the station.

They took him in the to Police Station bathroom, stripped him, and stomped on his testicles, rupturing them. Then (still cuffed) they raped him. They grabbed a wooden toilet plunger and shoved it repeatedly in his anus until it was all a bloody mess. Then they shoved the bloody and shit covered splintered stick down his throat gagging him. Later the "charges" against him were dropped, and he spent over 2 months in the hospital, loosing 50 pounds (couldn't eat because of shredded intestines, bladder, and rectum) and missing most of his teeth. One of the officers proudly took the shitty, bloody plunger through the police station proclaiming that he'd "broke that nigger down". When they dropped him off at the hospital rather than having him die in their jail cell (too messy), the told the hospital staff that this guy probably had some kind of kinky "gay sex" thing, and that is why he was bleeding profusely from his anus and mouth. (Guliani's finest right there.)

But hey, mistakes happen right? Why the fuck get all up in the face of those poor, well-meaning cops right? We should have just all shut up like you said an' let them good ol' boys jes go back to doing their jobs! Right? Damn uppity liberals...always bitching about something.

Fanon @ 119:

Grandma Jefferson @ 117:

Tasering is torture, and terrorism. Its' purpose is not merely to "neutralize potentially violent offenders", as the videos here amply prove.

Its' purpose is to reduce citizens to terrified, unquestioning obedience, who might just be so uppity as to exercise their now-dead Civil Liberties, or labor under the delusion of their "equality". They are being used to ensure absolute control of the sheeple here, at all times. Argue with a cop? Get tasered. Dare to question a cop? Get tasered. Step "out of line" in any way deemed "unsuitable" by some hireling thug? Question a politician at a "open meeting"? Show up at an Impeachment rally or Warcrime protest? Get tasered! And we have the Halliburton Hiltons waiting to accomodate us all.

How did police ever do their jobs to maintain order without tasers for the past several centuries? They had to use intelligence! But now, we have the perfect way of dealing with any human situation: Taser them. Those who blame the victims for these outrageous abuses of power, might soon find themselves on the receiving end of the technique, the next time they find themselves stopped for not wearing their seatbelts, or arguing about a speeding ticket.

And the public accepts this, drinks the kool-aide, and comes up with mealymouthed rationalizations, waffling excuses, and utter bullshit, to legitimate it. "Oh, it's better than a gun", bla bla bla. Rather than "police", we now have "military", who view civilians as "hostiles", and fair game for anything.

For those who think we're on "the slippery slope" down to a police state, allow me to respectfully, at the risk of being tasered, point out WE'RE ALREADY THERE.

AHH Phooey!

Can we add the eloquence of your "AHH Phooey" response to the tortured logic of your "People die from crossing the street too. Should that be illegal?" comment?

hope @ 120:

Fanon @ 119:

Grandma Jefferson @ 117:

Tasering is torture, and terrorism. Its' purpose is not merely to "neutralize potentially violent offenders", as the videos here amply prove.

Its' purpose is to reduce citizens to terrified, unquestioning obedience, who might just be so uppity as to exercise their now-dead Civil Liberties, or labor under the delusion of their "equality". They are being used to ensure absolute control of the sheeple here, at all times. Argue with a cop? Get tasered. Dare to question a cop? Get tasered. Step "out of line" in any way deemed "unsuitable" by some hireling thug? Question a politician at a "open meeting"? Show up at an Impeachment rally or Warcrime protest? Get tasered! And we have the Halliburton Hiltons waiting to accomodate us all.

How did police ever do their jobs to maintain order without tasers for the past several centuries? They had to use intelligence! But now, we have the perfect way of dealing with any human situation: Taser them. Those who blame the victims for these outrageous abuses of power, might soon find themselves on the receiving end of the technique, the next time they find themselves stopped for not wearing their seatbelts, or arguing about a speeding ticket.

And the public accepts this, drinks the kool-aide, and comes up with mealymouthed rationalizations, waffling excuses, and utter bullshit, to legitimate it. "Oh, it's better than a gun", bla bla bla. Rather than "police", we now have "military", who view civilians as "hostiles", and fair game for anything.

For those who think we're on "the slippery slope" down to a police state, allow me to respectfully, at the risk of being tasered, point out WE'RE ALREADY THERE.

AHH Phooey!

Can we add the eloquence of your "AHH Phooey" response to the tortured logic of your "People die from crossing the street too. Should that be illegal?" comment?

Gee, hope, what a scathing come back. You haven't exaclty waxed eloquent on the subject. Nice way to parse an evening of comments into two statements.

Zippy @ 123 "Awhile ago everybody hear went apeshit for Ted Nugent making the same types of comments."

Nugent is a racist pig and a traitor to his country.

Pepper spray can and does cause heart arhythmia, and that can kill. It can and has caused persons to stop breathing, and it can cause allergic individuals to choke to death. It can also cause an epileptic fit in persons with that illness.

TASERs can easily kill. TASERing a pregnant woman under any circumstances should have 'right-to-lifers' up in arms, but they as usual care nothing about human rights or fetal health.

Parents are being encouraged to TASE their children, and schools will be TASEing school kids in another ten minutes.

But the point is that this is not "escalation" as the post says. It's the rollout of these devices, and tens of thousands are being sold all over America, including to the public.

These are dangerous weapons, useful for a whole range of criminal activities. Sue any agency using them inappropriately, and have Congress pass laws against private ownership.

Parents are being encourage to tase their children?? I think you need to reference that.

Fanon @ 127:

Parents are being encourage to tase their children?? I think you need to reference that.

The 'encouragement' is the sale of these dangerous devices to the public.

Like any weapon, ownership is use. There have already been cases of torture of private individuals by criminals, and children are being TASEd as punishment.

Selling such devices as 'non-lethal' to the public is the height of insanity.

Everyone knows a gun is lethal. There will be plenty of parents holding their dead child with an unknown heart illness, and there will be plenty of children who become epileptic and DIE as a result of such 'non-lethality.'

Paul in LA @ 129:

Fanon @ 127:

Parents are being encourage to tase their children?? I think you need to reference that.

The 'encouragement' is the sale of these dangerous devices to the public.

Like any weapon, ownership is use. There have already been cases of torture of private individuals by criminals, and children are being TASEd as punishment.

Selling such devices as 'non-lethal' to the public is the height of insanity.

Everyone knows a gun is lethal. There will be plenty of parents holding their dead child with an unknown heart illness, and there will be plenty of children who become epileptic and DIE as a result of such 'non-lethality.'

I dont know about LA but possession of a taser is illegal in Il and so is mace and pepper spray. Just because you can buy it, doesn't make it legal. And that does not equate to parents being encouraged to tase their kids!

Here's an example:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Self-Defense---Tasers-in-Schools---Is-It-Time&...

As these private companies market their TASERs to private individuals, the proliferation of encouraging marketing like this is on its way.

Media are already referring to TASERing as being 'stung.'

Bee stings can kill allergic persons. But otherwise, there is very little about being blown off your feet by a TASER that is like being 'stung.'

Fanon @ 130:

An automobile, used properly, is NOT considered a lethal weapon.

In a court of law, an automobile is a deadly weapon. Police officers commonly kill persons who back into their vehicles (as if that was use of a deadly weapon, even when no death or significant injury was threatened).

Equivocation is an artform. Why these TASERs are so safe, I shock my kids all the time. At least they aren't playing on the freeway!

Paul,
Well, lots of things are marketed to lots of people. I guess it's up to people whether they choose to buy them, and how they use them. It's not like tasers came out yesterday, either. They've been around for a long time and the news is flooded with stories of people tasing their kids. An e-zine advertisement staged as an article isn't exactly persuasive evidence to me that their is an epidemic of people out there buying tasers for personal use.

Some background. The RCMP went through the efficiency fad exercises about a decade ago. As a result they got new weapons (including tasers). Having new weapons they were of course more effective and a lone officer could respond to a distress call. This led to the death of more than a dozen officers in recent years. Officers became overanxious and edgy hence the resort to excessive force immediately on the slightest provocation. We also have PC merit hiring incorporating gender, race, education, sensitivity resulting in the hiring of nobody resembling the beefy, slow to anger, not too quick on the trigger Irish cops of Chicago, Boston, NY. Overlying all this is a management that is politicized federally while providing local policing (yes Virginia traffic tickets) resulting in a management that couldn't manage effectively even if they knew how and wanted to. The answer is to divide the force into a national one responsible for national issues (FBI) and the rest to be turned over to the provinces (state troopers). The failure is first political and then managerial. While we Canadians are relatively civilized with matching crime rates there is no room for complacency when we look at the trends.

Fanon @ 137 "It's not like tasers came out yesterday, either. They've been around for a long time and the news is flooded with stories of people tasing their kids."

The new civilian model is lighter and being marketed far better than the TASER was marketed in the 90s. Cases of child abuse are on their way, without a doubt.

You would disclose any financial interest in TASERs, right?

Fanon @ 140 "And, "commonly" kill people who back into their vehicles. Seriously?"

Apparently you live far from a big city.

"Many other police departments consider vehicles themselves a potentially deadly weapon, allowing police officers to shoot at unarmed drivers as a last resort. Lately, several departments, including Los Angeles and Boston, have moved to adopt the stricter version used in New York City after similar shooting incidents. The International Association of Chiefs of Police also recently adopted a model policy on firing at moving vehicles with language that mirrors New York City's regulation."

http://www.nysun.com/article/55030?page_no=2

Paul in LA @ 143:

Fanon @ 140 "And, "commonly" kill people who back into their vehicles. Seriously?"

Apparently you live far from a big city.

"Many other police departments consider vehicles themselves a potentially deadly weapon, allowing police officers to shoot at unarmed drivers as a last resort. Lately, several departments, including Los Angeles and Boston, have moved to adopt the stricter version used in New York City after similar shooting incidents. The International Association of Chiefs of Police also recently adopted a model policy on firing at moving vehicles with language that mirrors New York City's regulation."

http://www.nysun.com/article/55030?page_no=2

Yeah Paul, downtown Chicago is real small town

The RCMP let Mr. Dziekanski die. They did not try CPR, they let him die. (Manslaughter I think it's called) If not for the video by the young man , who btw had to threaten going to court to get it back, the RCMP would have gotten away with the original lie M story.
The police here get to investigate themselves so that is a HUGE problem.

The US has had 300 deaths after taser use since 2001, ( a six year old was tasered!) Canada has had 19 deaths since 03. The taser is being used too quickly and it is supposed to be a last resort before pulling a gun.
more info at :
http://truthnottasers.blogspot.com/