Iranians Taken By WWII TV Romance
By Nicole Belle Friday Nov 30, 2007 3:01pm
(h/t Scarce)
Every Monday night at 10 o'clock, Iranians by the millions tune into Channel One to watch the most expensive show ever aired on the Islamic republic's state-owned television. Its elaborate 1940s costumes and European locations are a far cry from the typical Iranian TV fare of scarf-clad women and gray-suited men.
But the most surprising thing about the wildly popular show is that it is a heart-wrenching tale of European Jews during World War II.
The hour-long drama, "Zero Degree Turn," centers on a love story between an Iranian-Palestinian Muslim man and a French Jewish woman. Over the course of the 22 episodes, the hero saves his love from Nazi detention camps, and Iranian diplomats in France forge passports for the woman and her family to sneak on to airplanes carrying Iranian Jews to their homeland.
On the surface, the message of the lavish, state-funded production appears sharply at odds with that sent out by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has repeatedly called the Holocaust a myth.
In fact, the government's spending on the show underscores the subtle and often sophisticated way in which the Iranian state uses its TV empire to send out political messages. The aim of the show, according to many inside and outside the country, is to draw a clear distinction between the government's views about Judaism -- which is accepted across Iranian society -- and its stance on Israel -- which the leadership denounces every chance it gets.
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I bet the series ends with her converting.
CD @ 1:
Considering what the comment about this article said, I am doubting it. There isnt a problem with judaism, there is a problem with Isreal.
Just like there isnt a problem with America(persay), but a problem with our President and this administration.
I think I heard about this a couple of days ago and it is nice to know their citizens aren't anti-semitic, but I think we already knew that. President Ahmadinejad is just an Iranian Bush.
Uh-huh. I look forward to seeing some heads exploding on the other side of the aisle. I mean, apart from being ready to dash across the border and hurl the Israelis into the sea, aren't all Iranians supposed to believe that the Holocaust never happened? (To be fair, the series does apparently portray Zionism in a very negative light.)
Also, what's up with posting a three-month-old WSJ story? Is the series back in the news for some reason?
ellessidil @ 2:
Are you aware that Iran Hoasted a state sponsered Holocaust deniers conference?
This is an opportunity for us to demonstrate a little 'Compassionate Conservatism', and not start the Nuclear attack on Iran at ten o'clock on a Monday night.
CD @ 6:
How does pointing out something loopy that the Iranian government did (could you be more specific about this conference, by the way?) undermine the point that was being made about the distinction between the Iranian people and their government?
Sure, the Iranian gov't is a theocracy and their leaders suck, but keep in mind it was European christians, not persian muslims, who tried to exterminate jews(and homosexuals, slavs, and gypsies) during WWII.
grendelkhan @ 4:
And how exactly do you know that?
grendelkhan @ 8:
He said "There isnt a problem with judaism, there is a problem with Isreal."
drshatterhand @ 9:
It was European Christians who gave their lives trying to asassinate Hitler.
[deleted--here's a quarter, buy a clue. We're going to keep deleting your anti-Semitic posts.]
I think the point is, the Iranian people don't necessarily reflect the Iranian government.
But guess which is going to suffer more casualties in Li'l Dubbie's next campaign to remain relevant?
"It was European Christians who gave their lives trying to asassinate Hitler"
I don't think Von Staffenberg(sp?) tried to asassinate Hitler to specifically stop the holocaust. Plenty of christians did man the ovens, though.
Symes @ 10:
Two ways. First, the linked WSJ story quotes the show's creator as saying "The murder of innocent Jews during World War II is just as despicable, sad and shocking as the killing of innocent Palestinian women and children by racist Zionist soldiers." Secondly, this Christian Science Monitor article quotes an advisor to the Ayatollah as saying that "the correlation between Zionism and Nazis is known", and describes the character of a Zionist uncle portrayed as a villain.
you,you,you mean all those Erainians aint terrsts..bu,bu,But The preznit said sooo.
Judging Judaism by the actions of zionist Israelis, is like judging Christianity by the insanities of Hagee's CUFI's.
I saw a documentary once about the media in Iran and I remember them saying that women could not be shown without the headscarf, leading to such laughable scenes as women in their pajamas at home in a headscarf.
This show doesn't seem to follow that rule. Any idea why? Is it because it's historical and about a non-Muslim society?
Or is that question not partisan enough for this thread?
CD @ 11:
Egg on me; I didn't read back far enough. That's a false comparison; people who criticize the American government while understanding that Americans aren't uniformly evil, or people who criticize Ahmadinejad while not maintaining a burning desire to set random Iranians on fire, aren't equivalent to people who want the state of Israel dissolved and its people mumble mumble mumble. (Anti-Zionists who claim not to be antisemites tend to remain rather mute on the details of what would happen to the Israelis after the Palestinians get their land back.)
CD @ 6:
There are many facts about the so-called Holocaust which do not stand up to historical scrutiny. Giving people a forum in which to discuss such things does not amount to holocaust denial. Indeed -- most, if not all, of the attendees agreed that Jews did suffer through WW2.
Just like "anti-semite" is thrown around to stop people from criticizing Zionism and/or Israel, people such as yourself are quick to try to stifle discussion about the Jews in WW2 by calling people "Holocaust deniers".
Would you have us believe that there were lampshades made out of Jewish skin, or soap made from the ashes of dead Jews as well?
deniz @ 19:
The Iranians who ink in head scarves on foreign films, frame by frame, are on strike.
OT: I hope C and L is planning on covering the Heartland Presidential Forum going on today. http://www.tvoneonline.com/ccc/ccc2.asp
Preacher Boob @ 22:
I wish I could tell if you were kidding.
grendelkhan @ 5:
lol
grendelkhan @ 16:
Fair enough.
And if you notice (as I am sure you have), contrary to popular US opinion/news?/propaganda they like I make a distinction between the two.
Unfortunately there is a very vocal and violent minority that equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.
They are wrong of course, but after having that drilled at us at every chance for 40+ years it's hard to break the conditioning.
Nothing wrong with anti-Zionism, even the Hassidic communities don't buy it.
The Iranian "People" are not Crazy, ...... Just their President.
Sounds familiar ... like America.
grendelkhan @ 20:
They integrate into the Palestinian nation that is restored to it's former self. The same thing they were doing before they used car bombs to drive the British out and take the Palestinians territory.
What did you think they were to do, die?
"Americans elected a Commander in Chief?" Really? That's news to me, I thought we elected a President.
Aeon @ 21:
Denialism is, in short, the creation of the appearance of controversy where there is none. In much the same way that creationists portray themselves as clear-eyed truth-seekers but really have alternative motives, the Holocaust conference (which I'd like some more information about, by the way) may have contained a lot of verbiage about historical scrutiny and a forum for honest discussion of the facts, but the ulterior motive is pretty clearly Israel. As Israel was founded on the ashes of the Holocaust, so the reasoning goes: no Holocaust, no Israel. Failing that: smaller Holocaust, less Israel.
The extent to which a nation's original sin can be mitigated by the passage of time is an open question. Normans out of England, English out of Massachusetts, British off New Zealand and so on.
grendelkhan @ 20:
Hey, I happen to be an anti-zionist As are a vast multitude, majority of Europeans), who IS NOT an anti-semite (forget the claims). As far as what would happen to the Israelis if the Palestinians got their land back: Well, probably the same thing that would happen to a 7-11 robber who had to give the cash he stole back to the store.
grendelkhan @ 30:
How about Holocaust absolutely as documented (though not the horrible thing in history, nor the largest mass killing like some would have us believe), but no Israel anyway since these were EUROPEAN Jews not Palestinian Jews.
The Diaspora is still on according to the texts, so there isn't even a valid religious reason to be pushing for Israel at this point in time. According to the texts the Jews will be WELCOMED back to the holy land with open arms at the END of the Diaspora. This is the same problem the Hasidim have with Zionism.
Aeon @ 21:
I happen to have a leather-like Thermos cover/case made from the skin of a circumsised penis, which my uncle brought back from Germany as a souvenir of WWII. Any way I can tell if it's jewish?
Symes @ 32:
Sorry, that should have read " not the ONLY horrible thing in history".
Just want to get that corrected before the JDL shows up and calls me an anti-Semite.
Symes @ 26:
I think being under siege for sixty years might have something to do with the legendary Israeli paranoia. Just an idea, there.
I don't think that "anti-Zionism: loopy fundamentalist approved!" is a very convincing slogan.
Symes @ 28:
Are the Palestinians aware of this plan, or is this just your handwavey fantasy?
And here I thought that was being shot, set on fire and blown up by the Palestinians. Read some history; the Arab-Israeli conflict predates the establishment of the state of Israel--even if disestablishing it magicked away the collected animosity from decades of war and death, why would you think there would be peace and harmony?
Most of the solutions I've heard proposed involved swimming; they certainly seemed more realistic than what you've got.
Preacher Boob, you are an ass.
Old tactic, post crazy AYM/KKK noise and blame it on the people you victimized.
Hell, blaming it on the victims is the right wing MO anyway, isn't it?
I take it you have already alerted LGF and Drudge to use your posts as an example of how off the hook and anti-Semitic we progressives are.
grendelkhan @ 35:
I think you are the one who needs to do a little research.
I stand by my comments, they are based in fact and history.
As for attacking Hasid's as loopy? You don't know anything about them I take it.
They live it. You comment on it.
Preacher Boob @ 31:
Doesn't this metaphor usually end up with the robber's grandchildren building their own prosperous store, and the 7-11 owner's grandchildren demanding the store which the grandchildren didn't actually steal themselves? The point about New Zealand, etc., wasn't just a throwaway line.
Symes @ 32:
I didn't say that it made sense; I'm saying that because the foundation of Israel was, right or wrong, a consequence of the Holocaust, trying to discredit or minimize it is seen as a path to discrediting Israel. Your opinions notwithstanding, I believe this is the reason for the popularity of Holocaust denial, and for the moral equivalence drawn frequently drawn between Israel and Nazi Germany.
This would be relevant if Israel were a theocracy. Which it's not.
Symes @ 37:
Could you be a bit more detailed? What am I wrong about, specifically?
I know that they apply religious texts as a guide to modern geopolitics. I call that loopy when the Left Behind Christians do it, and I call it loopy when the Hasidic people do it.
The reasons for Israel's existence have far more to do with persistent cultural paranoia cultivated over centuries of being a persecuted minority, which informed a post-Holocaust desire for a sanctuary where Jews would finally be a majority, than anything else.
We get it grendelkhan, you are a Zionist.
Site Monitor
There are many, many, probably a majority of jews, who are anti-zionist (If not publicly, because of the pressures, at least in their hearts and minds).
And they are certainly not anti-semitic.
How can you know I'm not one of them? And who are you to judge? Don't take that wrong, you certainly have the right to determine what fits on your blog, but I'm speaking intellectually, in more-or-less 'absolute' terms, of what's right, correct, true.
I'll tell you this, I am not an anti-semite. If I were, I'd say so, I've lived too long, too well, to care what someone else thinks of my views, except when someone accuses me, wrongly, or presumes to interpret my thoughts, and does so incorrectly. Even then, I really don't give a damn, I just wrote this as a test, to determine what I'm dealing with.
grendelkhan @ 39:
Yeah, it is. You have to be a Jew to hold a seat in the Knesset.
Symes @ 36:
See post 42, 'To Site Monitor'.
Preacher Boob @ 42:
Oiy.
What a boob
This is the best way to defeat Iran. Expose them to the non-stop television programming that we receive in the US and evolution will takes it course.
Symes @ 36:
As far as my being an ass goes, **** ***.
cd @ 45:
That's test #1. And you're being too hard on yourself.
cd @ 45:
BOOBS???....... WHERE?????....I like Boobs.
Perhaps I should clarify. When I say 'Anti-Zionist', I don't mean anti- the right of the jewish people to have a homeland, I mean anti- the policies of the current, and most of the past, policies of the Israel governments, particularly with respect to their 'dealings' with the Palestinians.
Also, cd@45, veh.
Please try to understand. It's not the Jews. It's the Government. Like, it's the Americans. It's the Government?
Can anybody grab that one?
I meant: It's not the Americans. It's the Goverment. Apologize.
Preacher Boob @ 47:
In the ***?
Symes @ 54:
As far as I can tell, you're all *** (That's test #2)
Preacher Boob @ 55:
Ooh! This was a test!
I didn't know this was being graded.
***hat.
Symes @ 43:
That's fascinating. I'm sure it's extra fascinating to Ibrahim Sarsur, or to Taleb el-Sana, both of whom are Muslims currently serving in the Knesset. Can I ask where you got the idea that there's a religious test for membership in the Knesset?
Preacher Boob @ 50:
And I could use the word "cheeseburger" to mean tofu, but doing so would probably be a bit confusing. It might help if you use words in accordance with convention, Humpty.
grendelkhan @ 57:
Symes @ 58:
Have the Arab Christian ones betrayed their constituency as well, or is their membership acceptable to you?
Do you realize how much more peaceful things would have been if we had just given the Jews New Mexico as a new homeland?
My guess is that the largest support for the original land of Israel comes from Christian Zionists. Can't have that second coming until Israel is returned.
grendelkhan @ 59:
Oh, I am fully aware that even discussing this with you is a waste of time.
You are an ardent Zionist, it's a religion with you boobs.
You are sitting there thinking of a way to call me anti-Semitic right now I am sure.
BTW, your arguments are old hat. We've been through this tread mill with you Zionists before and yet here we are running the same circles.
It's always the same, maneuvering, dodging and weaving until the anti-Semite accusation can be made.
All the while declaring the rights of Israel trump the rights of the Palestinian. Misquoting historical document to try to make points.
And always trying to get the door open enough to use the anti-Semite card.
Did I get that right? I'm pretty sure I did. After all, we've run this tread mill every month for the last 3 years now.
It never ceases to amaze me. When will humanity learn that invading a foreign land and taking control from its native people, no matter how noble the intentions, always leads to disaster?
grendelkhan @ 57:
The Israeli governments are, and have always been, zionist. So saying I'm anti-Israeli-government equates to anti-zionist, in my terms. I'm not particularly interested in your twisted 'conventions' of language misuse.
DonsBlog @ 60:
Oh, I wouldn't count out the Jewish fundies. Apparently the middle ground between wanting a state for secular reasons and religiously-motivated anti-Zionism (no Jewish state without the Messiah!) is filled with people with wacky Biblical visions. There was a plan to settle in Uganda (about sixty percent of the size of current Israel), but it would have displaced the people who were living there, so it's not clear that it would have worked out any better, even if the Zionists hadn't been dead-set on living specifically in Israel. Given that the tipping point was the Holocaust, it would have probably made more sense to carve out five thousand square miles of Germany rather than to go somewhere else. Someone had to get displaced; there haven't been empty places on this planet to build new nations without moving anyone out of the way since about ten thousand years ago.
But it's all academic at this point anyway.
Isn't it interesting, the similarities between what the Jews did, and are doing, to Palestine, and what the neocon zionist US government did, and is doing, to Iraq?
Zionism is a political movement that includes more than Jews. Just ask John Hagee. This series is about the plight of Jews in Paris during the war. And it did not matter whether they were observant or not. These were the common folk. They were rounded up, humiliated, and sent to camps. Not the rich Jewish bankers who were bankrolling Hitler and promoting him and WWII in order to get assimilated Jews out of Germany to Palestine. [Proof? Read Samuel Untermyer's speech after his return from Europe on WABC, August 6, 1933. Read the text of that speech here in the NYT. Go to the bottom part of column 2: http://select.nytimes.com/mem/archive/pdf?res=FA0E17F93E551A7A93C5A91783... Jewish bankers were buying newspapers in Great Britain and the US to spread anti-semitism, and promote war, just like what's happening now with Iran.]
My grandparents fought in the French Resistance and were killed, leaving my mother and her brother orphaned. The Jewish charities were under the aegis of the Zionists. They took my uncle to Palestine but left my mother to fend for herself in the French countryside. They told my uncle my mother was coming later. What did he know? He was 12. They left her for dead, basically. Nuns outside Nice found her and took her in, hid her identity, and educated her until the war was over.
Now the Zionists have everyone running for cover if the facts of the Holocaust are questioned. Look how they castigate the Iranian Prez for having a conference attended by anti-Zionist Rabbis. Some countries imprison people for asking questions. The Holocaust happened, but not as most people know. Zionist tyranny of Jews is unknown here. And probably wont be known because Americans dont have the balls these days to stand up for their right of free speech and investigation.
My mother, an Alsatian Jew, despises the Zionists for what they did. And as I hear and read more about it, I have to agree with her.
Preacher Boob @ 63:
Here, I'll try your logic. The American government is, and has always been, Christian. So saying I'm anti-American-government equates to anti-Christian, in your terms. Does that seem about right to you?
Zionism is the movement for the existence of a Jewish state. Anti-Zionism, then, is opposition to the existence of a Jewish state. It's really not any more complicated than that.
grendelkhan @ 64:
Good point, except that Arabs and Jews have had a historical grudge fight for 5,000 years.
I think Foxman and crew do a real disservice to the Palestinian issue by screaming anti-semitic every time someone disagrees with their views. Disagreeing with jerks like Bibi Netanyahu isn't anti-semitism.
My grandparents left Russia to escape the pograms, but the punishment meted out to the Palestinian people is no better. We need an open and free discussion or nothing will ever be solved.
grendelkhan @ 67:
Except at times, starting with Jefferson, the politicians were theists, not Christians.
I have a real hard time accepting the evangelical movement as Christians too. They call themselves Christians, but that's pretty much were the similarity ends. How can you say you follow Jesus then not care if poor are starving? Their movement is the age old grab at power.
DonsBlog @ 69:
Christians are theists. I think you mean deists. And we can restrict the comparison to the last hundred years; it doesn't make much difference.
The YouTube on this site wont play. Here's the direct link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQnlAerDSj0
grendelkhan @ 70:
Thank you. But I was thinking of the irony that the US was established in large part to protect a person's right to worship any way they wanted. Israel was created to be a Jewish state. So it started with a restriction of its members.
Zionism = A Political Doctrine
Judaism = A Religion
Zionism has been the root cause of the problems in the mid east, and evidently this crazy political doctrine is excused in any given opportunity, because this supremacists' doctrine involves those followers of Judaism.
.
On the other hand KKK does not enjoy the same support, although it is Christian Supremacy Doctrine.
We ought to condemn any and all supremacist doctrine, regardless of the religious back ground of the culprits practicing it.
Needless to point that I await either a torrent of abuse for this post, or the ever vigilant moderator's deletion of the post. Because debate of this nature is not allowed, under our censorship laws that we enforce ourselves.
It's not surprising that Iranian TV would make this, given that it's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's position that it was Europeans that caused the Holocaust, and that it makes more sense to have Israel in Germany than Palestine. However, I figure that this was just the excuse that the writers used to slip a LOVE STORY and depictions of European lifestyles past the assclown Theocratic censors. Pretty clever, actually.
Also, yes, for those who don't know, there is a small but vibrant community of Persian Jews in Iran, and, while they're discriminated against, the Iranian government hasn't tried to 'wipe them off the face of the Earth' or anything.
religion......other than people looking different,that's where all the trouble started.and it is still going on today....i see.
mudshark @ 75:
There are two parts to religion though. Those that join in a serious pursuit of spiritual growth, and those that attempt to gather people to form power structures. People are people, and no religion has a lock on either.
hareli @ 66:
There are cruel hearts and treachery amongst all peoples and cultures, and there is nobility and courage amongst all peoples and cultures.
Thank you for sharing that story, which must be painful for you to look back upon the past and realize what your grandparents and mother and uncle endured.
Actually, Straight Shooter, what's more painful for me to look at and accept as reality is that happy, productive, assimilated Jews in a society are considered the real threat to Zionism. It's not sufficient that Jews are able to practice their religion peacefully, and live in concert with their communities, wherever they may be. Zionists want to break that up, and make Jews feel like they dont belong so that they can control them. How else do you get professors and shopkeepers and doctors and lawyers to leave a happy home and agree to move to a patch of arid land under a baking sun where you know no one. You have to threaten them; you have to convince them their survival is at stake. [read Avrum Burg here: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/868215.html]
I was shocked to discover that it was the Rabbis in the 1800s who wanted the Eastern European Jews kept in shtels and ghettos. The ones who escaped went to Germany or Alsace-Lorraine, sometimes Switzerland if they could get in. The Jews in Germany were becoming assimilated and that was what led to the way WWII came into being. So many innocent people -- ordinary, hard-working folk -- were thrown to the wolves first by labeling, then suspicions, then job-loss, and shunning, then persecution . . . and for what? To ultimately populate Palestine? That's what all this nonsense was all about. Let's not even talk about the shame of what's happening to the Palestinians today.
Here's the correct link for #78. The final bracket got included and therefore returns an error. Avrum Burg:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/868215.html
holy shit....the message in this movie is that everyone loves the jews when they have no power and are being persecuted
well eff that
never again
and we are staying in israel...thank you very much
Here's a longer interview between Avrum Burg and Ari Shavit in Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/868385.html
continued here:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/868444.html
hareli @ 66:
thanks for attempting to continue to spread the lies of the perfidy
hitler killed the jews in europe...not the zionists
im sorry about what happened to your family...i lost many family members too...thank god many chose to leave prewar europe before it was too late
but enough of this blaming the zionists for the evils of the world
uncle joe mccarthy @ 80:
Hunh? How'd you get that?
uncle joe mccarthy @ 82:
The bankers were in cahoots with Hitler. You need to read more. The Jewish bankers did not represent Jews; they represented themselves. Read Samuel Untermyer's speech.
The read Perfidy by Ben Hecht and Israel Shahak's works.
hareli @ 83:
how???
ez
the hero is the moslem iranian
the jews had no power to save themselves....but the iranians did
forget the fact that the entire story is pure fiction
forget the fact that the arabs in palestine alligned themselves with the nazis
this show is historical bullshit
uncle joe mccarthy @ 82:
hitler killed the jews in europe...not the zionists
You also need to get your hands on The Transfer Agreement by Edwin Black but only the first edition 1984 MacMillan. Dismiss the later versions rewritten by various co-authors, the last of which is Abe Foxman.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 85:
forget the fact that the arabs in palestine alligned themselves with the nazis
So did leading Jews later: "Menachem Begin, Moshe Dayan and Yitzhak Rabin feting South Africa’s unrepentant Nazi Prime Minister B.J. Vorster at the Knesset in 1976"
http://tonykaron.com/2006/12/22/israel-and-apartheid-in-defense-of-jimmy...
Tony Karon is a South African Jew, the Senior Editor of TIME Magazine, and lived on a kibbutz. And fucking smart.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 82: The story may be fiction, but there are many stories of this kind of rescue happening in France during WWII.
hareli @ 84:
ummm....didnt you notice that i said to stop spreading the lies of the perfidy??
ive read the book
the facts remain...the nazis killed 11 million people
not jewish bankers....not zionists wishing for a homeland...not presidents roosevelt or truman for not bombing the railway stations or the camps...it was hitler and the nazis
and i wish people would talk to the iranians who currently live in the states
they continued to live in peace in iran under the rule of the shah, even after the creation of the state of israel
there problems and the mass exodus occured after the moslem revolution
amazing how people choose to forget the past
and again....there are direct links between the nazis and the arabs living in palestine during the war
google the mufti of jerusalem
google nazis sneaking arms to palestinians
thats right...the people you all are now fighting for were nazi sympathizers....hell isnt good enuf for them
I'll catch up with your replies tomorrow, Uncle Joe. Gotta put my kids to bed.
hareli @ 88:
got one about a moslem???
plenty of stories about christians
the show is a lie....nuff said
hareli @ 87:
So did leading Jews later: "Menachem Begin, Moshe Dayan and Yitzhak Rabin feting South Africa’s unrepentant Nazi Prime Minister B.J. Vorster at the Knesset in 1976"
http://tonykaron.com/2006/12/22/israel-and-apartheid-in-defense-of-jimmy...
Tony Karon is a South African Jew, the Senior Editor of TIME Magazine, and lived on a kibbutz. And fucking smart.
oh....so now white south africans are being compared to the nazi war machine??
bet i can dig up pics of american presidents greeting the south african leaders too
not sure what this has to do with anything
i do know that israel did carry on trade with south africa during the apartheid years....so did america...so did many other countries....so what
hareli @ 86:
You also need to get your hands on The Transfer Agreement by Edwin Black but only the first edition 1984 MacMillan. Dismiss the later versions rewritten by various co-authors, the last of which is Abe Foxman.
hey...why dont you tell us all about how if the jews had just traded trucks and money to the nazis, they woulda let all the jews leave europe unharmed
thats a good one too
I'd like to see this show
why is it, that since the israelis pulled out of gaza, very few progressives question or are even angered at the actions of the palestinians in regards to their daily rocket attacks?
is that because you dont hear about it on the news everyday, and the only time you hear about it is when the israelis retaliate?
btw...when is the united states gonna return texas and california to mexico?
or return any of the lands stolen from the native american tribes
the hypocracy of many progressives is truly astounding
I noticed that the OP indicated that the Iranian Prez had 'repeatedly' denied the holocust. I've heard this quite a bit, but never seen any evidence: sounds like a false meme to me. First-hand link, please?
DonsBlog @ 60:
Why give them New Mexico when they have the entire USA?
It is not a coincidence that Columbus' voyage took place at EXACTLY the same time that the Jews were required to leave Spain in 1492. Look it up.
Joe Branco @ 96:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.israel/
Aeon @ 97:
if the jews control america...why aint you paying me rent
you will be getting my bill in the morning
The German news magazine Der Spiegel (byline: Mohammad Reza Kazemi) appears to have investigated the TV series in more detail than the WSJ did.
According to Der Spiegel, one of the myths to which the Holocaust deniers subscribe is that Nazis and Zionists collaborated to further the project of founding a Jewish state, and eliminated Jews who opposed Zionism. Der Spiegel says that in the series at least two Jewish characters (a rabbi in Iran who was critical of the emigration of Jews to Palestine and the uncle of the female lead, Sara) are murdered by Zionists. Moreover, in the credits for the series, a book by the French Holocaust-denier Roger Garaudy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Garaudy) is listed as an "historical source," and Abdollah Shahbazi, who, according to Der Spiegel, is "a determined Holocaust denier" (Weblog www.shahbazi.org -- I can't read Farsi, but I'm assuming Kazemi can) is listed as an "historical consultant." The article quotes the scriptwriter, Hassan Fatthi, as saying that "the historic evidence shows that the majority of Nazi victims were those Jews who were against the occupation of Palestine."
The Der Spiegel article is at http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/0,1518,504864,00.html.
And in the US the state media pumps out "24".
uncle joe mccarthy @ 99:
It isn't about paying rent. It's about a so-called 'homeland'. The Jews were expelled from Spain. They were given 3 months to leave. That 3-month period ended at the beginning of August 1492. And Columbus set sail August 3rd 1492.
Cliff Brown @ 100:
ummmm....... saying that some Zionists assisted in the perpetration of the Holocaust(a documented fact) isn't what sane people would call denial. It's what people with an agenda would spin as denial though.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 89:
Aeon @ 102:
so you are alledging that columbus was a jew
there are a bunch of catholic italians who would be pretty pissed about that assertion
CD @ 6:
did they serve wine?
Terrible @ 103:
no sir....saying that there were rabbis who wanted the jewish people to go to their deaths in order to build a state of israel, is a fabrication...and therefore a part of holocaust denial
there were rabbis who told their congregants not to go to america, for they saw that as the beginnings of total assimilation (they werent totally wrong) but their only sin was not seeing the nazis for what they were, or what they were capable of doing
and there remains no tangible proof that any jew of worth ever supported the nazi regime in order to create the state of israel....none
Terrible @ 104:
uncle joe mccarthy @ 106:
Only if they are as profane as you.
A Christian is someone who believes in a Christ -- the term doesn't imply WHICH Christ. There were many.
A Judeo-Christian is a type of Christian. Jews are Christians. As radical as that sounds, it is true.
What we are used to calling Christians today are a particular type of Christian -- those Jews who happened to believe that Jesus was their Christ. But the fact remains that a Christ figure is central to Judaism. That, by definition, makes them Christians (a religion that has a Christ figure).
There is plenty of material you can check out on the internet which will give arguments for Columbus' likely Jewish nature. And if you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that his departure date was just a coincidence, then so be it. It's not my job to illuminate you.
Aeon @ 110:
columbus may have been a marano...a hidden jew...there were many at that time
feel better now??
and no, i am not a christian....i am a jew
and i really dont wish to get into a religious debate on a political board
grendelkhan @ 35
And here I thought that was being shot, set on fire and blown up by the Palestinians. Read some history; the Arab-Israeli conflict predates the establishment of the state of Israel--even if disestablishing it magicked away the collected animosity from decades of war and death, why would you think there would be peace and harmony?
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The Arab Israeli conflict predates the establishment of Israel. Sure it does. Israel was established in 1948. The majority of Jewish immigrants moved to Palestine prior to 1948. Since the first Zionist Congress in 1897 to 1948, European Jews immigrated to Palestine, formed militias and gangs and took over land slowly but surely.
The conflict, however, does not predate these massive immigration waves and it sure as heck does not predate the Balfour Declaration of 1917 which called for the Establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.
Your lame attempt at making this into some kind of religious war between the inherently violent barbarian Muslims and the civilized European Jews is pathetic.
Your comment about being under siege for 60 years is also pathetic. That's akin to taking over someone's house and then crying over the fact the original owners and their friends have you surrounded.
I just can't stand your pomposity. Who the f*&# do you think you are?
grendelkhan @ 39:
This would be relevant if Israel were a theocracy. Which it's not.
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Really? Then why is Israel now insisting the Palestinians recognize it as a "Jewish state"?
Whatever happened to the 20% non-Jews who live in Israel?
By the way, how can Israel claim it's a democracy when it constantly views and defines itself, through actions and laws, as a a Jewish state?
uncle joe mccarthy @ 108:
Well, when you add that 'of worth' part, it's difficult for me to disagree...
grendelkhan @ 59:
Who cares? Israel keeps the Israeli-Arab Parliament members as tokens to show the world that "we ARE a democracy, look how we treat the Arabs." Yet, 99.99% of all the laws in Israel promote discrimination against the non-Jewish citizens.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 80:
Stay in Israel. Post in Hebrew. Leave English to those who speak it natively.
If you're an American Jew who recently moved to Israel to shoot him some "Ayrabs" with an Uzi because the West Bank too is "Eretz avoteno" (with a heavy American accent), then I don't want to hear from you.
PS: Quit polluting the Intertubes with your wacko self-entitlement.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 95:
You seem to have a hard time grasping the concept called "under military occupation, daily attacks on innocent civilians, home demolitions and siege". Which are all things the Israeli military is doing to the Palestinians. You think by giving someone a brick from a house you took from them is going to make them feel better?
Was that a rhetorical question or are you honestly interested in finding out WHY?
Pull back to the 1967 ceasefire line, get out of the West Bank, demolish the illegal settlements that are built and are constantly being expanded on and into Palestinian land (usually their only source of income - crops) and if they continue the attacks, let me know and I'll personally come over and kick some butt. But, until then, don't come whining to us while blaming the victim.
PS: Poor you, I mean, you only have a multi-billion military behind you as opposed to a low-tech militia firing rockets into Israel. Last I checked a 1500lbs laser guided bombs does more damage.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 85:
the arabs in palestine aligned themselves with the nazis?!
zomgz islamofascists!
you know what's historical bullshit? leaving out the part where the Arabs in Palestine were fighting their colonizers, the BRITISH, before ww2 broke out, which means it's not so simple as Arabs hating jews therefore aligning themselves with the Nazis, it was that the Nazis was their chance to get rid of their colonizers, and the Arabs had to make a difficult choice.
Historical oversimplifications are so much fun. I think that's where most right-wing slogans come from.
Hey, I think you guys just solved our immigration problem... all we have to do is further radicalize the rightwing evangelical nutjobs so that they are convinced that unless they and their family move to a dirt patch south of the Mexican border, they'll make baby Jesus cry. They'll still be Americans, of course, and build roads back to the U.S., move money back to the U.S., and shoot any dirty Messicans that get near their stuff! I mean, its their home, right?!
Wow. Finally a solution that makes everyone happy. Well, except for the Mexicans that keep trying to get their land back, but we all know it's just 'cause they're born violent and bear the mark of cain so they deserve to die.
[/sarcasm]
But if you miss the subtle propaganda of that movie, you are NOT paying attention. Just because the uber-Zionists that want Israel to be 10x larger are wrong, doesn't mean that the Iranians are right on this issue.
And yes, the majority of the Arab leaders were huge fans of Hilter and his "final solution"... some still are. They were certainly fans of the Axis (probably because of British occupation), but it went deeper than that by all accounts. The problem with that much of a generalization is that "the Arabs" were (and sort of still are) a very diverse collection of groups and tribes.
Even so, it was only 30 years ago that things may have been looking up. But then the stuff really hit the fan with the the first generation of oil money brats, and all those assasinations, didn't it? I hope we call all agree that surely Arab individuals have definitely helped Jewish individuals at one time or another. And vice-versa. And I don't know, but HOPEFULLY, the younger Arabs that have access to the rest of the world realized just how much the holocaust affected the Arab world too, no matter what their racist grandparents thought. Let's face it: no holocaust, probably no modern Israel (as we know it). A callous way to look at it, but I'm just saying that especially Arabs should look and and learn about it, even the petty and cynical, instead of ignoring it as many do. It wasn't a "Jewish" thing -- it was about all of humanity. To allow ignorance or revisionist history is to allow it to happen again.
I'm not Jewish, but I won't allow that. It's unconscionable. The event alone doesn't justify anything by the Jewish state or a Jewish person. But the event exists in time, and must be acknowledged by all actors on the world stage, Arabic or not. Perisan or Japanese. Everybody.
The reason the "Zionist" argument always devolves is that it is bullshit on both sides. The cultures on both sides continually worship a history that they've rewritten (themselves starring as the tragic victim of course). You can't sanely argue either extreme. So the debate shifts into other territory.
Mock the short attention span of America if you will. At least we and the English aren't trying to fucking nuke each other over long dead historical bullshit. (Incidentally IBM was a major factor in supplying new computing equipment that made the holocaust possible. Yet I don't see any idiot blaring about how "we've got it all wrong" and "really it was IBM's idea, not Hitlers!!11one Let's absolve Hitler, and kill IBM!". Because that would be just insane also.)
McDuff @ 117:
What bothers me is that every time Israel and the Palestinians would broker a peace agreement the Israeli's would start their program of targeted assassinations. It looks to me like they don't won't peace.
And that make sense if you look at the fact that they're almost completely a welfare state. Without a crisis they can't get people to send them money. Kind of like evangelicals and gays, a great fundraising issue.
If peace really did break out Israel would go broke, and real catch-22 for them. So I don't expect any real peace agreement in my lifetime unless two things happen:
The US quits buying foreign oil and we are actually prepared to use our payments to Israel as a bargaining chip, a threat Israeli politicians don't take seriously. Only then could the US become an honest broker of a peace agreement.
grendelkhan @ 24:
He may have been joking, but he may also have been half right.
I recall a story (sorry, no links to prove it) that during the 2002 World Cup, the TV producers in Iran edited the games. Whenever pictures of the crowd came up (often featuring young women in tight t-shirts) the producers swapped it with other pre-recorded images.
Of people wearing winter coats. In July. 9_9
grendelkhan @ 16:
That columnist may be disgusting, but there's one truth about the Israeli/Palestinian situation that only the wilfully blind would deny.
In World War II, the jews were innocent victims of mass murder and muslims didn't hate jews at that time. If today a muslim-sent bomb or other WMD were to hit Israel and kill hundreds of thousands, they'd have no one to blame but their own government's policies which led to the blowback they endure.
DonsBlog @ 120:
And one could easily say that every time there is a chance at peace the Palestinians launch rockets or send in a suicide bomber.
Both have happened over and over in the process. I'm not even sure how one can tell what "THEY" want whether talking about Israelis or Palestinians. The fanatic fringe murdered their OWN leader in Israel: Yitzhak Rabin. Are you saying that is what ALL Israelis wanted? I find that hard to believe. Just as I'm sure that most Palestinians were growing weary of Arafat's weird power games, and him pissing away opportunities needlessly.
I think we see two reasonable peoples, both trapped by their respective extremist groups (and to some extent, their focus on historical wrongs rather than modern reality). We could be looking at the U.S.'s future if we don't sane up... seen the history rewriting spin on CNN lately? Or what goes for "presidential debate"?
Oh, we've spent too much too freely there over the last many years. I'd agree with that. But a "welfare state" that depends on checks mailed home from abroad? Not entirely. The U.S. tech sector, for example, is HEAVILY invested now. In fact, it's one reason we can't quite afford to cut them loose. Besides, if peace broke out, think of all the money they'd save on giant walls, and shit construction in other people's countryside (remember all those collapses at weddings? "Hello, this is God. Stop building these shitty houses here." But they don't listen...)
[We'll never get off of oil, because we're afraid of the atom. We'd have had to start the next generation nuclear research programs years ago to pull it off in time. We didn't we shut them down (well, Bush did). So we'll build unsafe 1970s era ones... something will go wrong (of course). There ends that. Back to oil, and Bush's buddies. Personally, I'm ready to go back to WOOD, if it means we get off of oil. Seriously, a steam powered car... recycled sawdust wood pellets... CO2 neutral... think about it ;) ]
swarmofkillermonkeys @ 119:
well it seems to me that a big part of America is trying to "fucking nuke" other people over made-up bullshit. Which really, at least long dead historical bullshit can be argued academically, the bullshit the Bushies are using to try and nuke others don't even make sense. So yeah, I'll keep mocking.
Those posters who are suffering under the delusion that Muslims have no issues with Jews only with Israel need to get a copy of the Quran and read it for themselves.
Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51 Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59
Allah turns Jews into apes! 7:166
Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29
Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30
And the list goes on and on and on. Islam is an intolerant religion at its very heart and soul. It teaches hatred of Jews, Christians and everyone else who is not a Muslim. The problem is that so called liberals aren't smart enough to pick up the book that contains the ideology they are talking ignorantly about and reading it.
Just like people didn't bother to read Mein Kampf before it was being fully implemented. The it was too late. Both books treat Jews similarly.
McDuff @ 112:
Not to mention that Iranians aren't Arabs. Iranians are the descendants of Cyrus the Great and Xerxes, and speak an Indo-European, not Semitic language. Not to mention, furthermore, that Iran was civilized long before "Europe" itself ever birthed its first one. Silly Murakans, always assuming that their "history" and "anthropology", such as it is, is "accurate."
swarmofkillermonkeys @ 119:
There were plans to make a Jewish homeland worldwide. That the current one is in Israel is due to Zionists, Jewish and their well-armed Christian brethren across the pond. If it had been otherwise, perhaps Judaism would have its homeland in Germany, and the sad thing of it is that the proto-Israelis would have had to force somebody off their land anyway. Perhaps when the Soviets were expelling the Germans, a rather ironic touch would have been for the just-expelled German areas to have become a European Israel, even if it was under the protection of the Warsaw Pact.
The Jews would be an interesting part of Stalin's defense pact, and perhaps would.....
I dunno. But, still, Zionism =|= Judaism, and Iranians =|= Arabs.
reyvn @ 124:
Really? So what's stopping us? I mean, if you are so positive that that is the goal of America since we've had the reigns since August 9th, 1945, why didn't we just pop a few off at Russia? Or Bosnia? Or hell even a small one on Cuba... they were looking at us funny... Or even Iran? Hell, if that was the goal, the whole Middle East would ALREADY be a nice smooth pane of glass dotted by oil wells. Or MAYBE just maybe America -- on the whole -- just isn't the monster you'd make of her.
I'm assuming you are joking in some way, but I just miss the humor. We have our share of cowboys, as does every other country. But most of the people in this country have worked VERY hard to prevent disaster. Bush is a mockery of himself, along with the rest of the PNAC idiots.
The next nuke (tactical battlefield) will probably be set off by Putin, or a minion thereof, don't you think? He's far ahead of Bush in the dictator chart. (If the U.S. hadn't conveniently intervened by drawing all the attentions of provocatives with loads of cash off of Chechnya to Iraq, it would one wonders happened already -- certainly the rebels would have had a whole lot more support. It wouldn't be the little cat and mouse game that it is now.)
General_Rennenkampf Says:
It would seem to me that Zionism has come to mean the expansionist agenda of Israel of the last 30 years. If you go back, sure I guess you could blame the English crusades for killing of the remaining Jews in the area anyway. Maybe they should get Scotland. But it was the Romans that force them out originally. Should they now get Sicily too? See that's the problem with this thinking of eternal expansion. I don't buy it.
Zionism used to mean the desire to see a Jewish homeland. OK. Well, done. America has more that paid the price for supporting that, and we didn't kick the Jews out of anywhere! Now the term seems to mean grabbing all the land possible, because Jews are a divinely favored people. That's where I say, whoah! You lost me there. If you aren't seeing the connection between modern "zionism" and the kind of zealotry that is behind the assassination... well, maybe you blinked! Of course, Zionism is distinct from Judaism. But look at the power that subset commands. I'd draw a parallel to the power of the American neocons just a short while ago (for many reasons) dispite being tiny minority of the population.
And while OF COURSE Persians are not Arabs, the connection between Iran and Lebanon (and yes Palestine) grows. Just as now Iran and eastern Iraq. They are seeking to grow their influence, and are perfectly posed to do so thanks to the U.S. Just ask the Arabs (that aren't thrilled at the idea).
Another thing that bugs me... how can Israel be a "democracy" when she declares herself as only "state of the Jewish people"? It seems an old-fashioned and vaguely racist idea. Israel COULD have set an example, and ruled so well that a separate state of Palestine would welcome more integrated governance. I really believe that was a possibility. Well, no longer certainly. Anyway, if zionism meant simply "having a home", I don't think many in the west would complain. But to the extent the word is associated with "aggression by settler" and the completely undemocratic "assassination policy", it raises eyebrows. You add those to Rabin's murder to prevent peace, the truth about the USS Liberty, the apparently lack of irony or shame when Israel packed Palestinians on rail cars to send them out of the area... and people start to be embarrassed to call Israel an "ally". Our interests sure don't seem to line up as often as we were lead to believe. So I guess it depends on whose definition of "zionism", the one from 1890, or the one in practice now.
grendelkhan @ 67:
Just because some people hate jews, doesn't make them anti-semitic. Some of them may have soft spots in their hearts for arabs, the other semites.
grendelkhan @ 67:
You should know enough to give up trying 'logic'. If it wasn't bred out of you, as I suspect, it was probably beaten out of you, in shul.
Leland Somers @ 125:
So what, the Torah calls non Jews animals.
What the hell do you think goyam means anyway?\
So what's your point? That it is a typical example of religion? Already knew that.
swarmofkillermonkeys @ 128:
in case you haven't noticed, the US is the ONLY nation in the world that has actually USED a NUCLEAR BOMB. You might wanna want to check "other events" in 1945. Why haven't the US used after that?
1. Mutual Destruction
2. Right now they can do all the damage a nuclear weapon could with conventional weapons.
So it doesn't really matter if the US doesn't really "Nuke" anybody, since they're doing the same damage anyway, with just enough collateral damage™ to not cause international condemnation. And in case you weren't paying attention to my earlier post, I said "a big part of America" and the "Bushies" want to do the nuking/warmongering. And no matter how you spin it, 30% is STILL one third of the American population.
And no, I don't think Putin or any world leader, even his majesty Kim Jong-Il would nuke the US. Why not? Let's use your logic, if they wanted to, they would've already.
Hmmm. The show embraces the Jewish Faith but not the current politics in Israel? Iranians sound like they have it together. No wonder the US MSM twists and intentionally misquotes everything Al-Ma-Diner-Jacket says. It would go against the current propaganda machine here in the US -- AIPAC, the Blue Dog Democrats and Regent University.
Pres of Iran never said--the Holycaust was a myth. Amato-- wise-up and stop your bullsh!tting us.
A bit sappy and old-fashioned maybe, but pretty good! I like it.
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