Countdown: Turley's Constitutional Fact Check On The Torture Tape Investigation
By Nicole Belle Wednesday Jan 02, 2008 12:20pm
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Keith Olbermann discusses with GW University Law Professor Jonathan Turley about the recently announced Department of Justice investigation on the disappeared CIA torture tapes and how through conflicts and a lack of independence, the chance of justice actually being served has been hampered once again by the Bush Administration.
Many people in Congress and in the White House and at Justice Department are framing this as an obstruction investigation, as if what’s on those tapes is an episode of “Barney”. What’s on those tapes is the original crime in the scandal and that’s the crime of torturing people. It is still—even after the last seven years—a crime to torture suspects. [..]
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And so what most of us wanted was someone independent to come in, somebody who was not within this line of…this chain of command to investigate these things independently, but nobody seriously wants that. And I’m not talking about just Republicans. This investigation now involves a range of crimes and a number of people that make it more serious than what originally triggered Watergate. And I can’t imagine a case for a better call for a Special Counsel.
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"And I can’t imagine a case for a better call for a Special Counsel." Neither can I, which is why one likely won't be appointed. Fact is that both parties have let this "we don't torture because I [W] changed the definition of torture" go on for too long. Now, no one currently in office, or who has been in office and while this travesty occurred, can do much of anything about it for fear of fear itself.
When the hell is this going to end?
Just heard Ed Helms say that Mukasey had hired a "Special Prosecutor" while talking to a Republican he was interviewing. He's spreading damaging misinformation. I wish he was a little less good ole boy and a little more accurate.
There are a number of Dems that are up to their eyeballs in this having been briefed on the "interrogation techniques" a few years back and are only now being critical. They want this to go public about as much as the Bushies would want.
I think the obstruction of investigation route is the best one we've got.
As I have said before. This will go nowhere. Mukasey is an expert in throwing off darts in all sorts of direction but the bull's eye center.
My sources have told me and confirmed that nothing will be achieved in this year or ever. There will be a significant event happening this year, that will took all of DOJ to focus on that issue rather than this one.
is this the only constitutional lawyer in the country? They have gone to the well one to many times with this guy, him and the watergate guy. Get some new blood man
the broken government series book sale is tired too
"What all is going up in smoke?"
http://tinyurl.com/2tgpd8
There is no nonsense so gross that society will not, at some time, make a doctrine of it and defend it with every weapon of communal stupidity.
-- Robertson Davies
Turley said Rove would be indicted over Plame.
This is one more reason among thousands to impeach this son of a bitch and that it has not been done yet is a frightening statement about the dissolution or our democracy.
Is it my imagination or did the MSM do a great job of silencing this from today's headlines?
Looks like they don't want it to go public either.
Thanks for posting this.
Turley makes good points about this not really being an independent investigation.
Because I believe Dems and Repubs are mixed up in this, I'm thinking this just might actually go somewhere. We know too much about this for them to just sweep it under the rug. Too many of the facts have seen the sunshine already.
Its a big rug Patty. They already hid a couple of wars under it and God knows what else.
C-O-V-E-R U-P
then
W-H-I-T-E-W-A-S-H
THAT's how you spell RELEIFE in Washington these days.
Turley always kicks ass on Keith and Randi Rhodes' shows. His blog is nifty as well
As with the Plame outing, the legal woodcarvers start out with a 2 x 4 and by the time they're done we've got ourselves a nice toothpick.
donviti is right.
There is nothing as tedious as expecting the Whitehouse to behave lawfully, Yawn.
donviti @ 7:
Ha, I thought I was the only one thinking the same thing.
Turley--ahem--PROFESSOR Turley is getting old.
Turley spoke a lot of truth. Especially when he said that a lot of Americans want to see “these people” tortured (or worse).
We have to face the fact that our government has failed. Whether, or not, we can recover, or where we will go from here is anyone’s guess. We could slowly recover from Bush/Cheney-it’d take years, we could end up looking like the old Soviet Union where they had laws, but on one obeyed them (our current situation), or we could collapse into dictatorship.
Democrats and Republicans alike have colluded to form a shadow government and neither is particularly eager to be exposed.
We live in exciting times.
Every Democratic candidate for president must sign a vow NOT to pardon anybody involved in the Torturegate scandal. Furthermore, they must also vow to pursue this scandal and fully prosecute all the suspects, including George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condoleeza Rice, etc. If found guilty, they must ensure that all these people GO TO PRISON.
EXPOSED!
Michelle Malkin is a HYPOCRITE.
Click here.
Watch the clips and make her squirm!
Tarro @ 2:
I know!!!! Will it ever end? It keeps getting worse and worse.
dj @ 6:
"my sources..." c'mon. spare us.
this is why All the intrenched in washington need to be replaced. there is too much corruption in our congress. the intrenched are ALL bought by the special interests. we should just shove the entire d c govt in the ocean, they don't respect the American citizens or the Constitution of the United States.
I sure am glad impeachment is off the table. What a waste of time that would be, eh? Worse than a waste of time...it might make people not like the Democrats! And we musn't have that!
Yes, best just to leave this to the Justice Department. They'll sort it all out. No reason in the world to risk offending a single moderate voter on something so pointless as preserving, protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States.
I mean, it's not like anyone took an OATH or anything.
Lollimom @ 21:
Well, I'm sorry. Maybe he's on a lot because there are so many constitutional issues on fire. And perhaps he's the only law professor who will not give W a free pass. I was so REFRESHED
do-si-do @ 29:
whoops, hit the submit button too soon...as I was saying...
I was refreshed by the fact that Turley came right out and said Torture is a crime. It's still a crime even if one claims to have gleaned "good information" by torturing someone.
TORTURE IS A CRIME.
How many people on the MSM in the USA are saying that? Not many. Shameful.
Who will be the sacrificial lamb (the Libby) this time?
It’s still a crime even if one claims to have gleaned “good information” by torturing someone.
Yes, it's like the administration gets caught robbing a bank and then claims that it was justified because they got a lot money.
The debate REALLY needs to move away from whether torture gets "the good information" or not.
It's clear that it doesn't. It's clear that it's part of a vicious cycle where torture victims tell you whatever they think you want to hear just to stop the torture and then you run with these wild conspiracy theories and kidnap and torture more people until they confirm and expand on your theory. Lather, rinse, repeat.
However, it's conceivable that in addition to this ridiculous tail-chasing, we'll actually get a real, live tip. We cannot allow that to become a justification and by arguing that "torture doesn't work" we're implicitly allowing that it would be okay if it did work.
It's not okay. It's a crime. You don't get to commit crimes. Period.
But Turley is right. No one is interested in investigating this, because everyone's hands are dirty.
And for everyone out there who thinks the next great Democratic president will come riding in and save us all, consider this: both the Republicans and the Democrats know that the next president is more likely to be a Democrat. Neither the Democrats and the Republicans want their complicity in this hideousness to be revealed.
Watch for your Democratic front runners to start talking about "moving on" and "getting the work done" and "living for the future not in the past" and "bipartisan healing" and all other kinds of nice, bland, soothing, reassuring words that basically amount to: "If elected, I won't investigate Bush."
Watch. It's coming. And when you vote for it, you'll deserve what you get.
Schumer suggested this Mukasey for the job, Feinstein thoroughly supported that decision-let's bite their asses!
I'm not knocking the guy by any means, but the whole idea of the talk show is to not have the same people on over and over and over again like they do on other networks. I realize there are constitutional crises to discuss, but you'd think that there are other law schools in the country with Const Lawyers they could reference besides this guy....
Why knocking Turley? He is a brilliant lawyer. He is willing to come on shows and give his opinion. Bruce Fein used to be on alot about impeachement. I like seeing Turley alot because I know I will get a considered correct legal opinion. Turley is not a Democrat. Turley speaks the truth according to the constitution, why would one change?
Turley is tops. If you want another const. Lawyer who's HONEST, they'll say the same as he is saying. Where do we turn when the lawmakers,are lawbreakers.?
pssst DJ, youse ain't supposed to tip the public about "The significant event later this year", now they gots to make a few adjustments to get the thing about the thing..
signed
Fat Tony...
What about the entire media buying into and spreading the propagandistic bullshit that the tapes were destroyed to "protect the interrogators' identities"?
That is such an obvious load of shit!
I just got a letter back from Congressman, D-Oregon, David Wu stating that there is no grounds for impeachment and that they are working along with Pelosi passing 12 bill for funding, including funding the war. And yet in the same sentence telling me that people have voted for a new direction, back in November election.
Whether you take the south entrance or the north entrance to the city of disaster, does not make new direction. A new direction that the people voted for in November was a direction away from the city of disaster. That's a new direction! Get us out of war, and hold those responsible for treason against this country!
Everytime turley shows up, he educates.
He lets citizens know that the study of law is not something acquired from watching 24, judge judy, Cops, or Faux News.
He provides the common classical interpretation of legal theory based on precedents, history and rullings, vs activist lawyers such as Gonzalez who view the law as a manipulative tool in the theory of "The end Justifies the means"
HE represents GWU well, and no doubt contributes to GWU being the institution select by idealistic, honest lawyers, training to serve the community and the nation.
(the other law schools may focus more on business, and corporate law specialities, hence the failure for them to provide any equivalent representative of academic stature..)
course I could be wrong...but there ya go..
Waterboarding is torture, per precedents established by our own military judges post- WWII. Torture is a crime against humanity. Bushco and much of CongressCo are war criminals for ordering, enabling and excusing it. They all belong in jail.
Some day I'd like to see a post with a side-by-side comparison of Jonathan Turley and CNN's Jeffery Toobin talking about the same issue. Turley would blow him away. Sometimes it seems like they're talking about very different copies of the US Constitution. Maybe Toobin uses the White House's heavily edited version. You know, the one that suspiciously begins with Article II.
Jonathan! heh I guess the makeup couldn't totally cover the bags. Good interview though. He is really pissed off about this topic.
This is major.
And I don't agree with J. Turley that all the accountability lapses here have to do with the use of torture. Yes... but it is the concealment from an investigating committee that has gotten the GOP into trouble before, notably Iran-contra. I think most of the population who remembers that could start having a big deja-vu.
And I must *beg* the Democrats not to make any deals with the GOP over this one. What's the worst the GOP can do if you refuse to deal?
six prosecutable crimes, more substantial than watergate, Impeach!
the ciA,, ya right,, im taking bets on this one that nothing at all comes of it.. nothing at all .
What outsiders think, vs. what actually happens: Perhaps we should consider the range of legal issues that are likely being discussed for presentment to the Grand Jury:
A. Illegal coordination of recollections: OVP conduct in re Libby appears to support this.
B. Witness intimidation, evidence tampering: This is the premise of the investigation.
C. War crimes evidence destruction: This appears to be a no-brainer.
D. Improper use of classification to hide evidence of illegal activity This would require knowledge of ORCON and security classification requirements.
E. Failure of OVP to adequately retain evidence, 32 CFR 2800: Alleged frivolous OVP legal arguments appear to support this.
F. Illegal use of information gleaned from torture to violate FISA, and commit war crimes against US civilians: This is not well bounded by the tape-destruction, but appears to be supported, given enough time for discovery in re FISA violations, and subsequent abuse.
G. Illegal failure of legal counsel to enforce Geneva; legal counsel providing frivolous legal arguments: This is consistent with Nuremberg, where legal counsel were implicated. This appears to be the largest concern of all US government counsel. They care less about the abuses or GTMO prisoners; they care more that the original illegal activity could attach to counsel and compel ICC jurisdiction.
H. Illegal use of bounties to induce civilians to commit war crimes: The GTMO detainees are using the tapes' destruction as evidence the US government wants to hide illegal abuse. But the other end of the evidence is the original illegal use of bounties to induce civilians to unlawfully deliver innocents to the American military.
obstruction of justice
obstruction of congress
conspiracy to cover up and destroy evidence - cia tapes, OVP fire
treason outing cia operation brewster jennings and val plame as political payback
manipulating intel to justify illegal invasion, occupation and war crimes
violation of FISA in illegal warrentless wiretapping American citizens 8 months prior to 9/11
illegal manipulation of the DOJ to concentrate criminal efforts on political opponents and obstruct trials of 'loyal bushies'.
just for starters.....
I just get angrier and angrier with Washington as this reviling cesspool of contemptible politicians continues to orgy itself in corruption. Divine intervention is required to wipe all of them away.
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