CNN's Undecided Voters: Edwards Won Debate - Some will Vote Obama
By Logan Murphy Monday Jan 21, 2008 11:46am
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CNN's post-debate coverage from last night's Democratic presidential debate included a focus group of undecided South Carolina voters. The group was asked to rate the candidates throughout the debate and gauge what worked and what didn't work, and who was the group's favorite.
In the final analysis, the undecideds thought John Edwards did the best job of the three candidates -- but that some 50% said that if they voted with their heads instead of their hearts, they would vote for Obama because they felt he has the best chance to win. Edwards' scolding of Obama and Clinton after their first heated exchange scored well, but there was another point that I took from this segment that all the candidates should give notice to. The group's favorable response dropped significantly when the candidates attacked each other, but rose sharply when Clinton went after President Bush and his failed policies. Remember him?
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Jonh still my Fav. I wish Corporate media would cover him! FIRST BTW
He has an expensive haircut, therefore he won't be allowed to win.
What's fighting about who's a bigger arsehole got to do with what a great President you'll be.
Wasn't Edwards a little more focused on the issues a President will have to deal with than Frick and Frack?
Those independents are NOT using their brain. It's not about being on the winning team. It's about being on the team that best satisfies your conscience.
but that some 50% said that if they voted with their heads instead of their hearts, they would vote for Obama because they felt he has the best chance to win.
Isn't that how we ended up with Kerry last time? People, people, people... vote your heart... the rest will take care of itself.
Corpocrats in America want JE to fade away. Simple as that. This Country is way in their hands and they won't give it up short from a Revolution. And that my friends won't happen...
Obama could really do himself some good if he starts discussing ways to save this country from an economic depression. He has all kinds of smart people advising him. The only problem is that whenever Obama or Edwards come up with good ideas, the Clintons (sic) come along, criticize them at first, and then, voila, in the end when they see the public going for these ideas, they steal the ideas and act as if they were the ones who came up with them. (I am referring to the Clintons from now on as the nominee and not Hillary because that is what it is.) We've seen that when Obama talked about diplomacy first with Iran and other countries. Now, the Clintons are borrowing a page from Edwards's populism: they are really going to go after the corporations and the corporate bonuses and golden umbrellas CEOs get! Gimme a break! That bloke from Goldman Sachs, I forget his name, Just got a $100,000 bonus, and he is one of her biggest contributors.
And, Edwards consistently polls higher in the general election head-to-head polls than either Clinton or Obama (who actually lose or tie to McCain). So, yeah vote for what you think is right and the rest WILL take care of itself.
Cripes, it's an election, not a horserace.
Edwards/Richardson is the ticket I'd like to see. Not holding my breath though.
I didn't like the squabbling. Frankly, I'd rather hear more about what Bush & co have done wrong in each candidates opinion and what they'd propose to put it right.
I still think Obama has the right idea in appealing to people to stop the partisan attack politics. W has destroyed the republican unity of bigots and kneejerk tax/military reactionaries with thoughtful conservatives (fiscal or social). Nominating Hillary will only unify them again. This squabbling is exactly what the Roves of the world want.
Edwards continually wins the debates, unequivocally wins head-to-head versus all the Republican candidates, and has the most liberal platform yet the average Democrat would rather vote for one of the appointed lead stars in the MSM's politcial soap opera. WTF! Edwards has said time and time again that he will place the middle class and the disadvantaged first when he is president yet people would rather vote for the corporate media darlings.
Dale @ 4:
I think it said undecideds not independents. I just mention this because I am an independent as is my husband and many of our friends. We do vote our consciences. I can tell you flat out that none of us will be voting for the Clintons.
Moose @ 11:
EXACTLY!!! KEEP SHOUTING THIS FROM THE ROOFTOPS!
Stop blaming the corporate media because people are stupid, nobody is making them vote for Obama or clinton. They just know deep down edwards shit is not going to sell to the general public
How about you people vote with your heart AND your mind. Why does it always have to be one or the other?
It's time we let the MSM know that they no longer control the elections. I've liked Edwards from the beginning. I even liked him best in the last Presidential primaries. He's got my vote!
Why can't the Dems and the MSM see that Edwards is the winner? I don't want Clinton. And Obama needs to "season" a little yet. Last night he kind of stammered when he was pushed and this can't happen when he is dealing with the repugs. He just needs to learn you can't be nice to the bad guys no matter how much you think you can work together! They will stab you in the back while shaking your hand. We need someone who can give it just like the repugs do. We need Edwards!!!
Hillary is a human!
Privileged Pink Princess botoxed, medicated, emaciated and ready to kick ass
California knows how to party Justin Timberlake
naschkatze @ 12:
So, if I understand you correctly, should Hillary be the Dem. nominee, you and your
husband will either NOT vote OR vote for the Repug nominee. Am I hearing you correct?
It was an easy and cheap grandstanding debate tactic to claim that as a result of the Clinton Obama spat "no child will get heatth care." Such an easy way to get applause...but will the insurance companies and lobbyist be shaking, quivering and changing policy only while Edwards is speaking? His voting record is not good.
Russ Feingold:
(Edwards)...who voted for the Patriot Act, campaigns against it. Voted for No Child Left Behind, campaigns against it. Voted for the China trade deal, campaigns against it. Voted for the Iraq war … He uses my voting record exactly as his platform, even though he had the opposite voting record.
miss_kitty @ 3:
LOL! too much.
yeah. i remember george bush.
the problem is hillary spent all that time attacking him, but he's not gonna be on the ballot in 08!
The idea that barack obama is 'obviously' going to win in the general election is some kind of funky ass know-it-all election race horse campaign wisdom bs.
I really don't think the Repugs could imagine a candidate they'd rather run against, even Mrs. Bill Clinton isn't as easy a target. The reasons are obvious -- supply your own.
The idea that the Democrats 'can't win' with a 'populist message' in a time of deep immorality, lawlessness by the powerful, and an economic depression is one of the most outstandingly self serving arrogant know-it-all pieces of crap served up by a society deeply rooted in preserving it's self image, and status quo deeply addicted to a story line that tells us of the triumph of all things 'us', even as the powers that be, the supposed bulwarks of status quo, the 'conservatives', radically remake american society.
It might help if as consumers people bought a little less of the BS the candidates are selling, and a little less of the BS that the Democratic Party is selling, and started thinking about what is right, and how the world works. And voted as if they were winners, not in order to be winners.
freaktown @ 23:
True, but most of the Repug candidates support all or most of bush-lites policies,
so attacking bush is the same as attacking those on the other side of the aisle;
and justifiable so.
I'm 67 years old and have never seen so many dumb people in my life time. This is the biggest disfunctional White House I have ever seen. You have people not voting for someone because they think he can't get elected. How can he get elected if you don't vote for him ? We will get what we deserve in the next election and God help us, it won't be good. Edwards 08 Sigh, I'm with you, this isn't a horse race, it's our future.
Do we want leaders to squabble with other countries? Both Hillary and Obama can not agree to withdraw from the war. We have the two most pro-war squabbler candidate on the front, while 70% want out of war. I don't believe the notion that people will not vote with their heart for Edward, just because the media says so. When have the media told the truth????? All the reporter that did are fired or gone. After 6 years, all we have is Bill Moyers and Kieth Olberman.
john edwards has the passion to be a great president and i support him first.
i was very disappointed in hillary and obama yesterday.......politics as usual.
when will the the establishment career politicians focus on the issues and
not the bullshit personal crap. no wonder the corporations control everything.
it's time the elected representatives especially from the democratic party
do what they are elected for and not the non-entity corporate flushing of the
American treasure.
Mollie @ 26:
Same type of illogical thinking is occurring on the Repug side. That is, I have many,
many Repug friends who have stated outright that should McCain be the nominee,
they will stay home and not vote because he would not represent their views/concerns.
I just don't understand such irrational thinking...
Chris Matthews says we have to watch out for Rudy.
So, I guess there's a lot to be said for the conventional wisdom.
AP - 1 hour, 34 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court dealt a blow Tuesday to Enron investors who sued major investment banks to recover money lost when the Texas energy giant collapsed amid a massive accounting fraud.
naschkatze @ 12:
So sorry. Huge mistake there.
Doggiebobo @ 20:
Never fear, we'll never vote Republican! Yes, we might leave that slot empty. We might have Bloomberg or a Bloomberg candidate or a Nader to vote for. We might write in Obama or Edwards. Keep in mind, Doggie, we are not Democrats and we don't have to vote the party line no matter what like good little Bolsheviki. And please do not give me that lesser of two evil crap because I'm sick to death of having to answer that. If the Clintons end up being the POTUS, the fault will NOT be ours. It will be the fault of you Democrats who could not find anyone better to run.
This is really becoming to be repetitive nonsense. Every where you go whether it be conservative or liberal blogs; everyone loves to hate Hillary! But, guess who is leading the pack, thus far? With all of those "so-called Hillary Haters" you'd think she wouldn't have a prayer as the democratic nominee! C'mon people, someone is voting for her.
L.A. Confidential @ 31:
Court refuses to hear Enron case
Or maybe I should have said, if a Republican ends up being the POTUS, the fault will NOT be ours. It will be the fault of you Democrats who could not find anyone better to run. I can't decide which version I like better.
Old Billy @ 30:
Well if a dithering dough head like McCain can mount this kind of comeback,I guess we can't count out the Mayor of Mayhem just yet...
.
Think about this, if you will...
I met a nice girl and want to marry her, care for her, have children with her, grow old with her, comfort her when she needs me, cheer with her success...
But since we'll end up divorced, why bother. I'll just continue to sleep around.
... The American electoral process.
Full of dreams and desires and a whole lot of self defeat!
.
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/1/21/143014/104
Rep. Rick Boucher (D-Va.), notorious champion of Big Coal, has endorsed Barack Obama. Some greens are no doubt going to use this as evidence that Obama is too close to coal.
naschkatze @ 33:
Oh, I hear you loud and clear...and tho a Dem, I too will(at least in the Primary in my
State) vote for or write-in Dennis K. because he has(when permitted to participate in
the debates) presented his views/policies more in keeping w/mine than the other Dem
candidates.
alanj878 @ 14:
Majority of what vote? Is it a coincidence that EVERY repug talking head I've seen e.g. Buchanan, just LOVES Obama. Either they've learned to appreciate diversity overnight or they're fattening up the Thanksgiving turkey with false praise before they take him to the butcher.
Right on Mollie. Gore and Kerry both mopped up the floor with Bush in the debates, yet we still elected Bush (it shouldn't have been close). After Edwards continues to deliver time and time again on issues that effect all of us if he is not eventually elevated to our nominee we once again deserve what we get.
Dale @ 4:
then they got it right and you of course are pushing your opinion on them.
L.A. Confidential @ 31:
bushco controlled supreme court.....what a
fairbunch of assholesI tuned in to a re-airing of CNN's debate last night. I started watching a little after it had started, just before Hillary and Barack had their little match up. The whole time, Edwards was not shown. I was watching on my DVR, and when they finally cut to Edwards, I rewound the DVR and found that it was 8 minutes before we heard from Edwards. The only time that Edwards was on the screen for that whole 8 minutes was a couple of quick far away camera shots. The rest of the shots were closeups of Hillary and Barack. It was really weird tuning in at that time and watching that long before Edwards was even acknowledged.
The whole time Edwards was talking, they were continually showing side shots of Edwards with the other two candidates in the background.
Definitely seemed like they were avoiding Edwards to me.
I like Edwards a lot actually, however I object a little bit to this 'high road' label put on him, specifically because if he was closer into the race, you'd know he'd have the same attitude defending his record and attacking others.
.
Y'all know Kucinich was barred from the Texas primary as a Democrat because he refused to sign the full "LOYALTY" oath to the Democrats...
Even the Democrats require "LOYALTY" oaths, it's not just for Republicans.
.
Mollie @ 26:
Moose @ 11:
EDWARDS IS the BEST !!
If you have any doubts who owns the Dem candidates, check here:
Who Owns Your Candidate? Clinton, Obama & Edwards
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/2/134545/8905
Excellent graphs are self explanatory. If you think all this money is contributed by the corpos just because, w/out anything expected back, have your brain MRI done right away.. You might be in for a surprise !
and, keep checking the RollCall
http://www.rollcall.com/politics/kstendorsements.html
White House Endorsement Watch
K Street Endorsements - lobbyists
Clinton 63 lobbyists, incl Carlyle Group of Booosh crime family
Obama 18
Edwards 0 ==> ZERO !!
Top Reps of the Funerary Association
Mittens 24
McInsane 19
Captain 911 17
Frauderick of Hillywood 12
John is the ONLY one with comprehensive PLAN for ONE America
you can download it from http://www.johnedwards.com
There is an appeal today from the campaign for contributions.
How can his message get out w/out funds ?
Contribute to his/OUR campaign via secure link
https://www.johnedwards.com/action/contribute/form/
He consistently wins all the debates, and is blacked-out by the corpo-media precisely b/c they are scared of him.
Remember, 76 % of Americans were convinced that Iraq was involved in the 911 attacks despite there never being any evidence of that. We're preaching to the choir here. So, keep educating your friends, relatives, whoever.. Email them with these links !
They are pushing Hillary and Obama because they are UNELECTABLE - any repuglican beats them in the GE (general election). John Edwards beats ALL the repug candidates, in every NATIONAL poll.
Vote EDWARDS in the primaries, don't chicken out !!
EDWARDS 2008 !!!
Edwards/Obama '08
The winning ticket.
Richard Ray Harris @ 21:
Bingo! Beyond the emotional pleas, Edwards has very little to run on. He tried to pull similar nonsense on stem cells in 2004:
More recently, he's milking "homeless veterans" for all it's worth. When you watch and listen to Edwards, keep in mind he is pandering to the emotions of the American voter, attempting to manipulate us all, just like he did with all those juries when he was making his millions off PI cases. As Feingold aptly points out, he certainly can't run on his Senate voting record and claim to be the "people's candidate" or the "change candidate."
As usual, the worthless media is telling everyone who "can win" so that people won't vote for whom they believe is the best candidate. We really need big changes in the election system here so that we can vote for the best candidate. Maybe the "instant runoff" voting would be better, where we choose 1st, 2nd, 3rd choices.
Max-1 @ 47:
May be so, but the Texas Loyalty Oath required/mandated that Dennis K. would
have to support the winner in Texas and I personally think that Dennis K. did the
right thing inamsuch as that type of loyalty oath stinks. I am not sure what kind
of loyalty oath the Repugs may have to sign, so am unable to comment.
He's my man. Guess that's why he's third in his own state. Jesus, we're doomed.
right wing hater @ 39:
I remember coal. Coal was a friend of mine. Alternative fuels...you're no coal.
There's the way to seal the media-controlled outcome: "Edwards is the best candidate, but he has no chance of winning, so vote for Obama instead!" Why would you even care about that information in the first place?
I lost my interest in Obama last night. I now know that he is a puff-piece and a liar.
There is lots of information about his background, too. He's done some fairly significant slime work in his past, and has reaped benefits from it. We all know Hillary was a board member at Wal-mart. And now we are aware of Obama's years-long relationship with a scumbag named Rezko.
Edwards needs to stay in the picture. Fuck the corporate media. If lawyers across the country can continue funding him, it would be best for all of us.
Chris @ 51:
Better yet, let's have a moritorum on the MSM. That is, they cannot/will not/shall
not be permitted to cover any political events for a period of 90 days prior to the
actual Election Day...or at least ALL of the MSM political pundits shall be banned
from the airways for that period of time. Wouldn't that be a revelation?
Sigh @ 13:
From your mouth's to the vast "Whats the matter with Kansas?" ear....
Edwards has always been the no brainer pick for the general election. Edwards / Obama is a dead lock cinch to kill any pair of the repug midgets.
Richard Ray Harris @ 21:
In terms of credibility, there's Russ Feingold, then there's everyone else.
While the two front runners make fools of themselves in front of the American People, John Edwards walks away as the Winner! He is above the fray and the nastiness of the Obama and Hillary. I believe the American people will wake up just in time to realized that John Edwards will bring about true change, and will fight for the rights of the middle class. Good luck front runners, keep knocking each other down till you disintegrate. John Edwards has the the most to gain by all of this!
CappuccettoRosso @ 48:
Look. I'm all for Edwards. But in Washington state, he has no presence, and that worries me. Clinton is having workshops for supporters to dominate the caucuses. In WA, that's on 9 Feb. The primary is 19 Feb and the Dems don't base any percentage of delegates on the primary. It's 100 % caucus choices.
I AM going to the caucus, I am standing for Edwards til the end, but the person I'm driving is supporting Obama. :( I got a couple weeks to work on her, I guess...
CappuccettoRosso @ 48:
Of course you speak of those allowed to be heard by CORPORATE MEDIA!
I do not feel comfortable voting for someone the CORPORATE MEDIA tells me I need to vote for.
EXAMPLE:
Why and HOW is the "DRAG QUEEN OF 9/11" a top tier candidate when he places almost last in every primary?
At the same time, "Up-Chuck-a-bee" has actually placed well, yet is a second tier candidate?
And for the Dem's... there's only one tier... The "MYTH SYSTEM MANAGEMENT" Tier.
p.s.
How is this even a Democracy when the votes can't be counted, let alone secured...
Or have we even forgotten about this.
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5586
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
.
Lollimom @ 56:
What Edwards says does not match what he does. He takes money from special interests just like the other two candidates. If I'm going to vote for someone this year, its going to be Kucinich.
"I'd rather vote for someone I want and have him not win than vote for someone I don't want and have him win." -Eugene Debs
Liberal AND Proud @ 54:
L&P...good to see you! I kind of miss those times when we'd defend the topics from trolls & lurking right wingnuts/freepers.
I agree with you. I'm not hating on Obama, and I agree with you that an Edwards/Obama ticket would be great...especially if Edwards molded Obama's environmental platform (show him the light).
haha ya. Russ Feingold is one of the very rare Senators that we got. Whoever he endorses will be my choice too.
JR @ 34:
Yes, hard core democrats, older women, non-college, blue collar.
NOT independents, cross-overs, etc....
She will fight Romney for those folks, She will out and out lose to
McCain for those folks. And, there in lies the puzzle of Hillary.
She may win the nomination, by playing on Clinton nostalgia.
That will KILL her in the general.
So, you'd better pray for Willard to win the Republic nomination,
and not St. John the Teflon one...
If Democrats were smart enough to nominate Edwards or Obama,
who could actually stay on issues, they could fight it out with McCain.
The media will focus on the whole "Billary" co-presidency thing
against McCain, her experience card will go up in smoke against
McCain, (who was actually ELECTED when she was still First Lady)
and she will lose in the SW to McCain.
Remember how McCain was just pilloried for going "Soft on Immigration?"
Doesn't sound like such a bad strategy now....
Romney, on the other hand, will get annihilated in the SW for his Immigration demagoguery.
Pray for Romney, Fear McCain or somehow get Edwards or Obama
on the ticket with Richardson as VP....
Richard Ray Harris @ 21:
Lest we forget. Thanks.
phantom @ 63:
No. No. No.
Edwards has published his promises. I don't give a shit what he's said or done in the past. He's grown up now, grown wiser, and admitted mistakes.
You can keep ripping into him all you want; it just makes you and all the others like you look stupid, especially when you compare shills like Clinton and Obama to Edwards.
The Shrub's name won't be on the ballot, but he'll be hanging around the neck of the GOPer like a mill-stone.
And by the way, KUCINICH IS FINISHED! Get over him!
frank luntz wasn't heading that focus group was he?
Lollimom @ 71:
Probably accurate, but at least in the Primaries, we can still cast our vote for him
and if enough do so, "some" of his policies will have to be given serious consideration
by the Dem. Party and the eventual nominee.
I hope he is still on the ballot when Penns primary comes around. I wont vote if he's not. I have misgivings about rewarding the democrats with my vote if the candidate is either Obama or the Entity.
phantom @ 63:
For what Edwards has received from these special interests, is so low on the scale as to be hardly noticeable. Kucinich is the best candidate, but has no chance in hell of even surviving for much longer without huge doses of cash. So if you vote for him, you cannot blame it on an Independant this time, like people did the last two times. Either way you slice it, the system is a damn joke. Two parties? Please.
The article just quotes CNN's words, and I don't trust CNN. I
watched that debate and when CNN said "..now watch how the line jumps on the negativity of the answer..." the line really didn't jump. The line barely moved in fact and on occasion flat lined. When CNN hear's something they like -they blast it repeatedly -in detail.
They never aired the answers of anyone - just gave us a general blanket view.
I suspect Hillary got her butt chewed out -and they desperately are pushing for the Clintons to win.
Notice Malveaux again giving Hillary the perfect soft ball questions to rant on Obama? Yet hit Obama hard and helped Edwards do the same.
That 'great' debate, was deliberately provoked by CNN's ratings grabbing gutter drive to stir up race and gender headlines.
I'd like to see Lou, the anti-Latino crusader and Wolf the Jew and Malveaux a pandering female minority, thrown in to the ring, with Fox and host Bill O'Reilly asking the questions.
That's the kind of freedom America fights to preserve??
Doggiebobo @ 73:
I agree. Also, I could say the same about Edwards. Even if Edwards is the most qualified "top tier" candidate, he is not going to stand a chance against this historic opportunity to elect either a woman or non-white candidate into the White House. Edwards is finished!
phantom @ 77:
Sadly I agree. When you go on two nationally televised debates and get squat for talking time in comparison to a shrieking banshee and a stuttering Obama, you are toast. The media loves the two horse race. Voters should throw them for a loop after watching that disgusting debate display, and decimate both Hillary and Obama at the polls.
phantom @ 77:
You need to crack open the books again and do your research. For now, you get an "F".
Finished? Not by a long shot. His voice and influence in the debates (or "pageants" as somebody described them) is as effective as ever, perhaps moreso today than at the beginning.
Attorneys throughout this country: Please continue to fund Edwards' campaign. His voice needs to continue to be heard.
...and yet John Edwards gets so little respect. I don't get it.
Voting for who you think can win vs who you want to win is a recipe for disappointment.
Clearly, people are too stupid to govern themselves. If they weren't, Kucinich would win in a landslide.
Lollimom @ 79:
Lollimon: You need a much,much bigger and larger audience than here on C&L thread
if you are seeking political donations for John Edwards. You might want to go to the
ACLU website and see if they would entertain such a campaign request..
How about "first black VP" or "first female VP"? Then we could have the best of both.
Russ Feingold:
(Edwards)…who voted for the Patriot Act, campaigns against it. Voted for No Child Left Behind, campaigns against it. Voted for the China trade deal, campaigns against it. Voted for the Iraq war … He uses my voting record exactly as his platform, even though he had the opposite voting record.
Is Edwards using his vote platform that Russ used for voting for John Roberts as the Supreme Court Justice? Russ Feingold needs to sit down and shut up when it comes to voting records b/c that vote is gonna cost the american citizen much in the foreseeable future.
I sent my ballot off today from a US base in Germany....Edwards!
I watched the debate and I found Hillary to be abrasive and annoying. And Obama stammered and rambled and couldn't keep on point or make points for that matter. Either of them can and will be beat by McCain if the Repugs get behind him.
Edwards was the adult in the room and is articulate and is focused on the issues facing all of us. I just don't understand why the American voter would, once again, vote against their own best interest and let Corporate Media pick their candidate.
We've had enough Bushs' and Clintons - it's time for them to fade away. I understand Hillary is a good Senator and she needs to stay Senator and Bill needs to move on and do worthwhile things but not from the WH.
Obama is just not ready yet for this big job and needs more time to become ready if that is what he sees in his future but his time is not now.
I hope Edwards stays in until Hillary and Obama cancel each other out and the electorate wakes up and we may just have a chance to save our country.
That big mouthed woman couldn't just let the FACTS of the story lay.
She had to end it with another LIE.
IT IS A LIE THAT PEOPLE WILL VOTE FOR OBAMA BECAUSE THEY "THINK HE CAN WIN".
It is the worst possible reason to vote for a man. You should vote for your candidate because you believe he is truthful, of good character, and a man of his word. Then you should vote for the person who holds your point of view.
peaceful easy feeling @ 50:
I guess not only are facts stubborn..so is misinformation which is very revealing about the above ..try knowing for yourself..like reading the record and then tell me about his voting record that is so unqualified to be the "people's candidate"Sense of the Senate for funding lifestyle research for preventative medicine, Sense of the Senate honoring National Science Foundation, Sense of the Senate to preserve six day mail delivery, designating “biotechnology week”, Children’s Internet Safety Month, Joint Resolution against excessive campaign donations, to protect the civil rights of all Americans, Bi-partisan Campaign Reform, Restrict access to personal health and financial information, Establish a Center for National Social Work Research, provide more effective remedies for victims of sex discrimination in work, provide incentive for fair access to the internet for everyone, require fair availability of birth control, increase the minimum wage (’01), protect consumers in managed care programs, emergency relief for energy costs to small businesses, prohibit use of genetic information to discriminate on health coverage and employment, provide families with disabled children to buy into Medicaid, eliminate the loophole for interstate transporting of birds for fighting, provide funding to clean up contaminated land, informing veterans of available programs, Designating part of ANWR as wilderness, establish a digital network technology program, reduce the risk that innocent people be executed, restore funding for Social Security Block Grants, provide for equal coverage for mental health in insurance policies, amend Clean Air Act to reduce emissions from power plants, establish uniform election technology (sponsored by Dodd), extend modifications to funding for Medicare and Medicaid, Federal Funding to local governments to prosecute hate crimes, reinstate certain Social Security earnings exemptions for the blind, overhaul RR retirement plan to increase benefits, Establish a Nurse recruitment and retention program, amend FDA to provide greater access to affordable pharmaceuticals, Establish African American Museum within the Smithsonian, Federal funding for research of environmental factors in Breast Cancer, Increase hospital benefits under Medicare, Establish Tariff Quotas on milk protein imports, Federal funding for mental health community education, protect patients in managed care plans (again), establish Office on Women’s Health in HHS, increase the minimum wage, allow media coverage of trials, prohibit racial profiling, improve health care in rural areas, protect consumers in managed care plans, prohibiting trade of bear viscera, provide greater fairness in arbitration of motor vehicle franchises, provide adequate insurance coverage for immunosuppressive drugs, provide financial assistance for trade-affected communities, acquisition and improvement of child-care facilities, prohibit employment discrimination based on sexual orientation, establish programs to deal with nurse shortage, establish a National Cyber Defense Team to protect the internet’s infrastructure, provide services to prevent family violence, require criminal prosecution for securities fraud, reissuance of a rule on ergonomics, ensure safe pregnancy for all U.S. women, improve investigation and prosecution of rape cases with DNA evidence, improve national drought preparedness, increase the minimum wage (yet again), assistance in containing HIV/AIDS in foreign countries, emergency assistance for small-businesses affected by drought, child care and developmental block grants, provide economic security for America’s workers, enhance security for transporting nuclear waste, FEMA hazard mitigation grants, increase mental health benefits in health insurance, criminal prosecution for people who destroy evidence in securities fraud cases.
Is this the record of a corporate appeaser? Is this the record of someone just loafing about and collecting a paycheck?
Funny what you find when you read a little, isn’t it?
You can the CNN Democratic presidential debate for yourself... No surprise to me that Independents favor Edwards.
Part 1 of CNN Democratic presidential debate
Part 2 of CNN Democratic presidential debate
Part 3 of CNN Democratic presidential debate
If Diebold is not your enforced voting apparatus, you can always vote for edwards in your primary. I wonder how that gets lost on so many idiots who need to believe in some bullshit media term like 'electability'!?
ronniemitchell @ 88:
Hey Ronnie...is that you, the brother-in-law of John Edwards?
L.A. Confidential @ 35:
And we actually expected them to do otherwise?
"but that some 50% said that if they voted with their heads instead of their hearts, they would vote for Obama because they felt he has the best chance to win."
Best chance to win, in AMERICA ?????? Remember that your head needs your heart to function.
keeping in Mind
1) Obama = LIEberman
2) Shillary = smoothed-over Busch
My first choice is Kucinich, next is Edwards.
CriminalGeorgeW @ 92:
proof that the media blitz against Edwards is having an effect. People are afraid to vote in their best interest
CoIntelPro @ 89:
Where specifically have you obtained the info that a person can vote in the Primaries for Edwards only if the voting machines are not Diebold? Show me some evidence that
this is accurate.
Doggiebobo @ 90:
A good place to research THE REAL John Edwards if you have any questions...
Lollimom @ 71:
There is a reason why you endorse the MEME "HE'S FINISHED! GET OVER IT!"
Silencing voices... ah... the essence of American Democracy!
.
Focus groups like this are garbage. I wouldn't give you a dime for the results, and I'm not talking about who moderated, what the questions were, and etc.
Rather, the focus group is a decent formative research method--helping whoever runs them see if their message seems to be coming across, etc.--but the results have to be taken with a grain of salt until the results are backed up by a generalizable methodology such as a survey.
While they may be vivid and easy to understand (which is why Hollywood uses them so much -- the folks aren't intellectually capable of understanding more complex, rigorous methods) they don't really tell you much.
Doggiebobo @ 95:
the NH Primary voting results and the subsequent audit. you need to be more vigilant.
these retarded focus groups, with magic all-telling dials that tell you how people feel, all need to stop. it was pathetic with fox and it was pathetic with CNN.
I've never understood how Senator Edwards got such a reputation as a progressive. His voting record during his one term in the Senate is pretty weak. He says that fighting corporate power is "the cause of my life," but before entering politics, he was a personal injury lawyer. Personal injury lawyers, while providing an important service, don't make much of a dent fighting corporations. They pick and choose the cases they want to take that they are most likely to win, and by doing so, they get verdicts or settlements for their individual clients and for themselves. At best, personal injury lawyers may help implement some incremental improvements, but they are not making major changes. Senator Edwards' career is one of a lot of talk and very little action.
It is absolutely no wonder that the leadership candidates (Upper tier) are the crap they are:
WASHINGTON, Jan. 22 (UPI) -- A Gallup Poll released Tuesday found a lack of desire among U.S. voters for a third-party presidential candidate.
"The American public does not appear to believe it is important or necessary for an independent candidate outside of the traditional two major parties to step into the race in order to save the nation," Gallup said
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/01/22/poll_no_clamor_for_inde...
Richard Ray Harris @ 21:
If you Check the record you'll find that Obama voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act and he voted for CAFTA. He also has said that he favors nuclear energy as part of an energy solution.
Frank @ 84:
So, what did Russ say abt Shrillary’s voting record ?? Obama’s ??
Zilch. Here's the common denominator:
Feingold = AIPAC
Rahm Emanuel/ DLC = AIPAC ==>> he's moving into Rove's WH office if Shillary wins
LIEberman = AIPAC ==> possible Shillary's VP
Rahm Emanuel = Clinton enabler
Shrillary Clinton = AIPAC
Neext …
Lollimom @ 79:
You seemed to have missed my point. I agree that Edwards is the best of the three, but you cannot deny the fact that if he wins, our country will have missed an unprecedented opportunity to circumvent the trend of having a white male in power since the founding of this country over 200 years ago.
Also, if you want to compare candidates on merit rather than popularity, then Edwards has no advantage over Kucinich at all. Kucinich is the ONLY candidate for a not for profit health care system, the ONLY candidate to push for a Department of Peace, the ONLY candidate for economic justice, the ONLY candidate to defend the articles of impeachment, etc. I encourage everyone to vote this year on the candidate they want, not on the candidate who is popular (thanks to the networks). I don't expect Kucinich to be our president, but I do want to apply pressure to a party that has lost its way. Kucinich's ideas are too valuable to this country to be thrown aside.
edwards/obama is what i'd like to see
but ill take obama/edwards!
CoIntelPro @ 99:
And you need to be more specific and accurate, because Diebold tho used in
N.Hampshire, is not proof that same circumstances will occur in the remaining
48 State Primaries. I too have real concerns/reservations about Diebold, since
Repug. owned and because of the fiasco in Ohio in 2004, but the apparent overly
broad statemement(as I interpreted it) indicating same will occur everywhere else
is unsubstantiated.
I like this quote from last night..........
"I'm John Edwards and I represent the 'grown-up wing' in the Democratic Party."
-- John Edwards, responds to the post-debate bickering between Obama and the Clintons.
(1/22/2008)
Imagine what the undecided might have thought if everyone were allowed to debate?
I had a heated argument about voting your head over your heart I was told that voting with your heart would be a wasted vote I would rather be true to myself and lose than vote with my head and get the same as we have now.
I am for Edwards changed from independent to democrat so as to vote in the primary my friend didn't have the time to change from his party because he was too busy playing WOW like a lot of voters today they are clueless on the issues and will cling to whatever misinformation is out there to justify their vote.
I work in a uhion shop and when canidiates come up quite a few would rather stay home than vote for another Clinton and most do not think that Obamo is electable
Sorry but the tow front runners are always in the spotlight for a reason the fix is in I think it's time for a poulist democratic canidiate
Shorter SC undecided imbeciles:
"Edwards won the debate but I'd rather vote for the young black junior senator from a northern state because he has the best chance to win."
Go f*cking figure.
We are Doomed.
random_dude @ 106:
"obama/edwards"?? Never happen.
CappuccettoRosso @ 104:
To hell with Feingold. Coward.
Johnny2Bad @ 113:
Opps. Here's the link to Feingold on impeachment.
JOHN EDWARDS IS MAKING HIS COMEBACK,HOW DO LIKE THEM APPLES.
Russ Feingold:
(Edwards)…who voted for the Patriot Act, campaigns against it. Voted for No Child Left Behind, campaigns against it. Voted for the China trade deal, campaigns against it. Voted for the Iraq war … He uses my voting record exactly as his platform, even though he had the opposite voting record.
The Republicans would eat Edwards alive on exactly these points. There is no way that Edwards, who is now a 10-year professional Presidential candidate, can avoid or combat these gross inconsistencies.
There are only two ways the public will broadly interpret Edwards' flip-flops: 1) he is grossly disingenuous and politically expedient in taking whichever seems the convenient position du jour or 2) he legitimately made mistakes in the past on all of those critical pieces of legislation and has since learned his errors, which means he has a massive track record of repeatedly demonstrating extremely bad judgment.
We all saw this once before with John (for it before he was against it) Kerry. Remember how that helped the Republicans? Can we not learn something from history here?
Yes, we have the opportunity to elect a woman or a black man but it's not an opportunity if it's the wrong woman or wrong black man. We all know Clinton's baggage and it's varied and substantial. We don't know nearly enough about Obama's but he makes it clear in every debate that he is not ready for this big job. I don't want our two-party system to become the two-family system and I don't want someone who is so not ready that he isn't aware of Reagans hand in how we got to where we are now. Edwards is the best viable candidate out there for us even if he is a southern white male. phantom @ 105:
rose sharply when Clinton went after President Bush and his failed policies. Remember him?
Very, very good point, and all the Dems should make sure they're hitting Bush, since the differences between the three Dems are slight compared to the gigantic differences between them and the entire GOP.
I still need to finish watching the last 20 minutes of the debate (doing it now), but while all the candidates had good moments, Edwards overall has seemed the strongest to me.
The irony about those undecided voters, as noted upthread, is that polls have shown that Edwards is the strongest general election candidate of the lot.
Once again, John Edwards has been eliminated by the press, and the corporate handlers will reap their rewards from last nights debate in SC.
By implanting the "American Idol" syndrome in the American population, it has successfully eliminated the best candidates from the race.
Remember back, after John Edwards surprise second place finish in Iowa, the corporate controlled media virtually eliminated him from the headlines.
Instead we saw Obama's great victory alongside Hillary's tears of anguish.
I suppose Edwards divulged too much of his plan to take back America from the corporate monopolies.
The corps are banking on the idea that the American public are more fixated on celebrity than substance, and the mindless drivel offered out by the entertainment divisions of the networks over the past few years, has sunk in.
It certainly has shown that America is no "Smarter Than a Fifth Grader"
Edwards only appears to be above the fray since he is not being challenged directly, as he is nowhere near the front runner status.
LIEberman = AIPAC ==> possible Shillary’s VP
Man, I have seen some wierd ass suggestions on the web,
but that takes it for this week.
If anything Lieberman is closer to McCain's VP choice then
the Hillster...
But, he's going to go ticket choice, probably someone to shore
up the south...
i watched most o fthe debate, and it was my feeling as i listened to each of them answer what for the most part were very difficult questions, that each one carried the day. there was new respect for hillary. edwards handled himself so well when he was characterized as the "minority." Obama did not rely so much on his ethnicity and religion but rather attempted to answer with wit and intellect. I was left thinking how any one of these candidates has so much more to offer than the republican side. and as far as the charlatan who currently resides in the oval office, who among us would not want a hillary, an obama or an edwards in his stead.
Sincerely, i would only hope that the three candidates take care in not tearing one another apart. i think the voters will side with the compassionate candidate, the one who recognizes the worth of his/her two colleagues. there is no need at this point to follow wolf's lead and start the snipping for his ratings game.
Did anyone notice at the end, the comforting female face telling us to vote for Obama even though Edwards won the debate? Did the survey group really tell her to tell us that if they voted with their mind over their heart they would choose Obama? Something wrong with that, no?
"Gore and Kerry both mopped up the floor with Bush in the debates, yet we still elected Bush (it shouldn’t have been close)"
Let's not forget everyone about the hidden taperecorder in Bush's back which allowed him to cheat the debate and YET WE STILL VOTED FOR HIM. We do indeed deserve our lot.
We have helped bring this once great country slip down into the abyss. History will record that we allowed it to happen.
I would have been real interested in what Dennis Kucinich had to say. As usual, thanks for nothing, CNN.
If you watched this debate and didn't believe Edwards to be the winner, you either (a) aren't being honest with yourself, or (b) are a babbling idiot.
miss_kitty @ 3:
All the polls show that Edwards can kick ass with any Republican they throw up. Obama is going to have trouble when his alliances with the likes of Joe Lieberman and Zbigniew Brzezinski become more well known. Old Z was Carter's national security advisor and got us involved in helping Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan. He also helped overthrown the Shan of Iran and we know how that turned out.
Who Really Started And Promoted This Fight
Recall this whole argument started because Obama wanted to get the record straight. The media will claim Hillary Clinton attacked Barack Obama and that was not what happen.
That being said, the media has gotten away with being the creator of what happen in the debate. As a catch to draw viewers into their programs, at every opportunity, the media has did nothing but use Obama's claim to set the record straight by confronting the Clintons. Now, having done the deed, the media only need sit back and praise their handy work and present this very issue in their next program as something the American people are tired of. Someone needs to call the media out on their practices. It is very obvious what they are doing to keep the Democrats split and divided. The headline catch phrase after the debate will read: "Democrats turn voters off; Republicans win the Democratic debate."
The problem is Obama is using to Clintons to shield him from the mistake he made when he praised Ronald Reagan the other day. By saying he was not quoted correctly, he is escaping the criticism for what he said.
Edwards reminded me of a buzzard waiting for a opportunity pick up on a disabled candidate. He could not win the standard campaign way, so he is left to scavenge.
Joseph
Obama looked like such a rookie, a lightweight last night. I wasn't a supporter of his at the beginning of the debate, but about half-way thru I started feeling sorry for him. It was like watching a guy getting killed in the ring.
We democrats are going to have to face the reality that he will do very poorly against the republicans if he (god forbid) is the nominee. He may want to play "Mr. Compromise" during this nomination process, but the republicans aren't going to have the slightest interest in this conciliatory style in the general campaign.
Wake up, Obama groupies!
Joseph @ 128:
Blah blah blah...Who started the fight??? Who gives a crap?
If its a choice between hen and the young rooster, the I'll take the "buzzard"
What does John Edwards have to do to show America that he can win? Is it because he is a white male and we have the wunder woman and the wunder Obama running that he is considered insignificant? It must be the eight million Obama commercials that have already started running where he is shown with Richard Luger and a Republican IL State Senator endorses him that makes everyone believe he is so unifying. He can join with the Repugs and mind meld with the late President Reagan but he can't stop calling Hillary and Bill names. Meanwhile, Hillary is like Angelica in the RugRats who knows everything, has done everything, and has already saved mankind two million times. This isn't a political race. It is becoming a soap opera. What does Edwards have to do to make the American people know that he is here to stay? If someone has an answer, let me know.
It is still unfathomable to me that the Media can lock out a legitimate candidate--Dennis Kucinich! Because he's too real? Because he can't be bought? Shame on CNN and they still gave way too much time to Clinton who's only attraction for me is that she may have learned from her husband how to balance the budget again. And too much time to Obama who speaks like a poet on the stump but has NO substance! There's nothing there folks!
And if I can't have Kucininch--Please give me Edwards! Every time they bring up these victories or defeats Edwards is barely mentioned as an "also ran!" WTF? We've given over any semblence of a democracy to the media who decide who's going to get time and exposure and to hell with the fact that more than two people are running for on the democratic ticket!
Maybe I'm just overly paranoid--but maybe that's there real agenda--use Clinton and Obama to cancel each other out so we get another Republican back in the White House...
Vote with your head AND heart: Edwards. If he doesn't get enough delegates, he'll be the King-maker, throwing them to who he feels will do the better job.
I trust him, and will continue to fund him.
Sorry, but I don't respect these idiot "undecideds". They do this every election, I think in attempt to get some attention. "Oh, please interview me, please ask me what I think. I'm such a dufus that after a YEAR of campaigns, I still can't make up my freakin' mind!!!" I'm lucky if I agree with 80% of the candidate I'm behind, and yes, they occasionally piss me off with their behavior or their vote, but that's to be expected. If I changed my mind everytime something went wrong in life or someone disappointed me, I would have been married 20 zillion times and put my kids up for adoption a long time ago. These foolish "undecideds" are just embarrassing themselves when they allow themselves to be photographed. The interviewer might as well be wearing a t-shirt that says, "I'm with stupid!!"
miss_kitty @ 61:
Hi Miss Kitty - Re: Wash State, am I correct to assume that it's blue around Seattle, but red around Spokane ? What's in between ? Plse correct me, and what are the totals ? Are you registered w/Edwards campaign ? If so, somebody in Wash State would contact you, via email. Might be helpful ?
Today we have a major Verizon fast-connections outage in NYC (they say major eqpt failure, but, maybe to prevent pple from trading stocks too much- went down ~ 9 am ?? NASDAQ also goes crazy), am slogging on the dial-up, quite unnerving - I usually work in 10-15 simulataneous tabs, today one is barely going. Was erroneous for weeks now, drives me crazy today. That's how 'improvements' happen here.. We are the (third) world ..
Re: that person you mention, could you print for her the K Street page, and bar charts I provided the link for above ? Maybe summ/ add the totals for the each of the three. Another C&L'er posted it, very clear. Why does she support Obama, can she articulate it ? The NYC whites are more often for Obama than non-whites, they just like him, don't know why they do - the usual abt race, etc.
Mostly very dem Afro-Ams that I know are quite suspicious of him (except of our local bum), based on Condomeetza, Clarence T, and Colin P, plus the local ones of similar stripe. Yesterday the influential Harlem church pastor endorsed Shillary (methinks the price was high). The Clinton machine corrupts quite effectively.
She's been a disaster as a NYS senator, using us as a trampoline to the WH. And, that's her ONLY legit experience, unless one goes back to her Whitewater lawyering in Little Rock. Not much to be proud of as a WalMart director either. What exactly was her WalMart related expertise, anyway, in addition to collecting money ? Ding-dong, squeeze a Chink ?
How about taking a copy of these charts w/you to the caucus ?! Short glance tells it. You've been pretty good re: derivatives. Money talks. Will talk more with an ongoing snowballing derivatives etc mess - will affect everybody.
Am off tonight for a battle w/our NYC Community Board that want to pour concrete in fantastic green open spaces we have, and which are so unique in NYC. They want more monuments (Lenin's Mausoleum/ Soviet Moscow style), that were not built for 30+ years. And, these are dems, to clarify. Few idiot sheeple hijack the process, politicize it - just like w/ elections. We who oppose (and stick w/only legal Master Plan) are told we're unpatriotic. Huge screens, presentations, consultants, crocodile tears, fist waving a-plenty. Am never impressed w/moved to tears politicians or their flunkeys. Turds blossom everywhere.
I am hopeful abt Edwards, a lot depends also on Diebolds.
I have some ideas abt what else to do, but cannot be on this board. If you'd like to exchange some info, plse contact me at my moniker, atgmaildotcom. I might answer from a diff address, will your system let me thru the firewall, etc ?
Thanks for all your input here - and a wit ! So many sheeple, so little time.. But, we have to persevere !! We shall overcome .. ;)
EDWARDS 2008 !
John Edwards is an honorable man, no doubt about that. And so is Obama. But right now, the economy is tanking to near depression levels and I want someone smart in office who can stop the slide. The Clintons have the proven track record to change things around. I read a fantastic post on a blog last night which I will poorly paraphrase. "We all complain about how horrible and awful lawyers are (Hillary) until we get sued, then the first person we call is a pit bull lawyer, (Hillary). That woman is so smart and can kick ass so well, I am truly amazed.
I'm always so tempted to send Edwards money, because he makes phenomenal points during the debates, and he's a great asset. I really admire the fact that he's not corporate money. You know what always stops me from writing out the checks? It's the haircut deal—and I don't care about the $400 cost. But the fact is, his hair looks better than mine!! He's a multi-millionaire, and he paid for the haircut out of CAMPAIGN funds???!!! I think he should be paying for things like that out of his own pocket. I don't want to send money so he can use it to style a beautiful head of hair that looks better than mine. I mean, I pay for MY own hairdresser.
JR @ 34:
Atleast that's what all those Diebold/Primire voting machines have been reporting to us via the MSM.
Look at who's winning in paper ballot districts...
Woow, Johnny2Bad, wooow - I never saw that link ! Didn't order it either.. Ties it all up ever so nicely .. Thanks !!
Johnny2Bad @ 114:
Edwards is a good man, people forget how the media shapes public opinion by how much attention they pay to certain candidates. He's not nearly as "liberal" as the far right makes him out to be. He's actually quite moderate and will most likely do quite well this Saturday in South Carolina.
Shirley @ 137:
FDR was also a gazzilionnnnaire .. So what ??
Gave us the most important US social programs.
If the haircut was paid from the campaign (do you have a link what's the proof ?) funds, it would be based most probably an the tax code tests. Not very smart - but he is the ONLY one who admits he is not perfect! Look at more important things, as ISSUES !!!
Should you change your mind under the self-styled do
Contribute via secure link
https://www.johnedwards.com/action/contribute/form/
Make It Happen ! We CAN do it !!
naschkatze @ 36:
I feel sorry for you.
sky @ 136:
Let's hope she will kick yours, NOT ours !!
She’s been a disaster as a NYS senator (I am in NYC), using us as a trampoline to the WH. And, that’s her ONLY legit experience, unless one goes back to her Whitewater lawyering in Little Rock. Not much to be proud of as a WalMart director either. What exactly was her WalMart related expertise, anyway, in addition to collecting money ? Ding-dong, squeeze a Chink ?
So,you can blah, bleeeet, blaaah - let her kick YOURS !
Let's let the media stop telling us who to vote for & who is best. Let the voters make their own decisions. All the media talks about is Hillary vs. Barack. Let's talk JOHN EDWARDS!!!! The other two are using his talking pints now & if all be told, the polss show John Edwards has the best chance of beating all Republican candidates. Vote for John Edwards!!!!!!
Johnny2Bad @ 130:
DITTO ! You're on the roll, Johnny2Bad !!
whenn it comes to comprehension 101, geo, you get an F. Or,you didn'tbother to read the preceeding post. HERE , read it ! Trll, troll, go away.. SO MANY Shillary's TROLLS TODAY here ..
Geo @ 116:
Johnny2Bad @ 114:
Jody @ 144:
Thanks for being clear headed.
moondancer @ 74:
I agree with you, moondancer. If John Edwards isnt on the ballot (for president, NOT vp), I wont vote for president at all.
LibertyLover @ 5:
I could not agree more. Instead of focusing on race and gender, why not focus on proposals? On this Edwards is the clear candidate of systemic change with Clinton a distant second and Obama not even on the charts.
mystic @ 124:
Well, maybe you did. Maybe the collective we, as in all Americans, did. But *I* did not. I knew he was a snake from the first time I saw that smug smirk and I never trusted him. I was one of the 10% minority that did not trust or approve of him even right after 9/11.
I don't, however, blame people who were fooled by him the first time. I have forgiven Clinton and Edwards for trusting Bush and voting for the the Iraq AUMF bill because, at that time, the evidence that Bush was lying was not so obvious as it is today. And because it would have taken overwhelming evidence to justify denying the President the right to prosecute his war on terror as he saw fit, given that we had recently been attacked.
However, those that voted for Bush the second time, after it was clear he had lied about the war and it was starting to become clear that he had been subverting the constitution and the rule of law, those people have some explaining to do.
chris @ 15:
Quite possibly the DUMBEST statement ever made on this site.
No, they just think CLINTON OR OBAMA will be the nominee, because the media has told them that all year. Edwards would be the strongest in the General Election, because he puts states like NC, TN, VA, and OK into play, and Clinton and Obama don't come close.
Yes, the Dems need to remember that the guy with the low approval rating is named Bush. Run against him. When you cannibalize each other, all you do is make Republican ads for the fall election. It's the Economy, studpid. It's the war, stupid.
It's the Bush/Cheney presidency, stupid!
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