Why did they have to go and do that? Those are actions reserved for American troops. Crap! It's back to the drawing board, folks.

The Windows Media links don't appear to be working....

Did the British Government say a full and complete investigation will be done and the scoundrels who leaked this information out into the media will be brought to justice?

DavidtheDuke @ 5:

Hillary Dean moment? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/24/hillary-clinton-mocks-bar_n_88194.html

"Watch the video from CNN below, and tell HuffPost whether you think Clinton's line of attack against Obama will help or hurt her campaign"

Keep the "unique hits" and uninformed opinons coming. Our site traffic stats has been tanking.

Huff Po's lost all credibility in my book.

For Iraq - the Salvador Solution.

For the US - the Argentine.

Nate @ 11:

I love how the media makes it sound as though this is the first inkling of British atrocities to go right along with the American ones.

British soldiers brutally beat Iraqi teens.

Oh no our fearless leaders would never encourage things like that no sir eee.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/02222008/watch2.html

No cute snark, just utter disgust.

Che's Lounge @ 15:

Collateral damage.

But Saddam was bad, so it was necessary.

Yes that old picture of Rummy shaking Saddam's hand in Baghdad just flashed into my head.

"Your not going to double cross us now are you" (Thought both are thinking in unison. )

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/rumsfeld-hussein.jpg

Meanwhile Tony Blair is living high on the hog with his bribe money from 'FOB' (Friends Of Bush) and his daddy. Billions and billions for dragging his country into this criminal war. Hopefully, the British will do more about it to their guy than we're capable of doing to ours...hanging in The Tower of London would be a good start.

RickB @ 19:

This has been hushed up since May 2004 and is coming to light after the High Court ordered a gagging order be lifted in January after several media companies petitioned to have the official cover up lifted. Our government have known about this for almost four years and suppressed it. If it weren't for the legal fight by survivors this would be in the memory hole.

Speaking of the Memory Hole

Neil Cavuto, Rep. J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ) said that Sunday’s New York Times story on the new National Intelligence Estimate and the ensuing public discussion are “putting lives in danger” because terrorists are monitoring “these satellite broadcasts.” Sept 2006

Damn that nasty internet! And how dare people discuss things that are none of their god damn business!

Come on really......what's a little atrocity between Allies?

Haditha anyone?

Oh boy these hypocrites. Where is the outrage about 1 million killed as result of this iraq "project"?

Edwin @ 27:

Drew @ 3:

You would probably be horrified to know that in ALL wars, there is torture so inhumane that governments do everything they can to keep it secret. It's just that in our information age, these facts are now becoming known to the general public.

England, America, Iraq, Afghanistan, all the soldiers from these countries have tortured and mutilated captured enemies.

This is NOT a "war", per se. This is an illegal occupation. The people who were tortured are CIVILIANS, not military!!!! So much for any "moral high ground". As the US/UK are allied, you are tarred with the same brush. You are war criminals. Unless the world sits together to make new Geneva Conventions, the old ones apply, whether you think so or not.

Say whatever you like, both countries suck big time.

PS: I thought you (US/UK) went there to "liberate" Iraq, as Saddam Hussein was torturing his peopl. Now you do these exact same things. New tyrants, same torture.

Oops [at 30], didn't mean to bold the text. Sorry. NOt trying to "scream".

This is breaking news?
I saw a British film based on this incident nearly a year ago.

One question: How does someone, while blindfolded, determine that up to fifteen people have been murdered?

"Don't count prisoners when loading them onto aircraft...only when taking them off." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDsA6X1japA

"Shoot everything that moves." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6yXxvKtnEY

"Just because they were bored." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OXtp9KV9jc

Micko @ 37:

By saints, I mean that is how the establishment views them, can do no wrong etc. When they beat the shit out of civillians they are "letting off steam". Just wait and see, nothing will happen, no one will face major jail time.

I'll conced that. The sheeple of Britain are just as dense (stupid) as average Americans.

March 13-16th... Support THESE Troops

HonestAbe @ 7:

Drew @ 3:

You would probably be horrified to know that in ALL wars, there is torture so inhumane that governments do everything they can to keep it secret. It's just that in our information age, these facts are now becoming known to the general public.

England, America, Iraq, Afghanistan, all the soldiers from these countries have tortured and mutilated captured enemies.

Unless orders come from above, brainwashing the soldiers in the process, that the enemy is sub-human. In Taxi to the Dark (scheduled to be on HBO in September), U.S. troops are told by commanders that the Iraqis are no better than dogs and should be treated as such.

I'm definitely NOT going to watch it. I know what is going to be shown in the movie, but I think to myself that I will not be a better person after watching it. Nothing good can come from it. The knowledge I already have, so I'm going to miss nothing. I saw beheadings with my own eyes and it scarred me for life, the only thing I can do now is teach everyone about the philosophy of freedom and liberty and self-education, for I now know with 100% sureness that the way the world is, if you rely on others to teach you the truth by simply taking everything in as it happens, you will become a sheep ready for the slaughterhouse. If you then choose to teach others while being a sheep you then do the world a double harm.

I say read more, and educate yourself more. Sure we're busy, but we're busy with things that are for the most part unimportant. I think the one thing that is killing us is ignoring self-education. Our educational system does not and cannot teach us what we need to know, because what we need to know goes against the very system that is educating us! I think people who say pshaw to this, and say "whatever, free schooling is necessary", then these people for some reason or another have mentally enslaved themselves to think that "the establishment" is by its existence the best there is. This logical fallacy of appealing to the status quo is supposed to be taught in the schools, but almost nobody really understands it. That is proof our educational system is going to the shitter. If you do not understand basic logic like this, then you have no way of further evolving and raising your consciousness to more complex issues like liberty and societal stuctures. You become progressively unable to cope with the changing world and have no way to deal with it other than appealing to authority, status quo, popularity, and other lazy and destructive ways of thinking.

How are we different from the British?

I hope people understand that most of the principles behind the founding of the US came from elsewhere and are not indigenous. Many if not most of them came from Brittain.

So, why should this come as a surprise? I smell naivte. (sp)

Drew @ 45:

xoites defends Constitution @ 29:

Drew @ 3:

You would probably be horrified to know that in ALL wars, there is torture so inhumane that governments do everything they can to keep it secret. It's just that in our information age, these facts are now becoming known to the general public.

England, America, Iraq, Afghanistan, all the soldiers from these countries have tortured and mutilated captured enemies.

Just one more reason to oppose all wars.

Even if you are attacked? I think opposition to ALL wars is going too far and is immoral. People have the right to defend themselves with lethal force if they are going to be attacked or are being attacked with lethal force.

So why are the people fighting to protect their homes/families in Iraq labelled "terrorists"? They are freedom fighters.

PS Drew, I really liked your post [at] 44 and agree!!!! That's part of the reason I live in Asia now. Nothing like learning hands on. Broaden your horizons; read, travel, ask questions, live abroad. I have been removed from my North American shell and see the world complete;y differently now. North America is rich, but banal and ignorant of the world beyond.

Edwin @ 27:

Drew @ 3:

You would probably be horrified to know that in ALL wars, there is torture so inhumane that governments do everything they can to keep it secret. It's just that in our information age, these facts are now becoming known to the general public.

England, America, Iraq, Afghanistan, all the soldiers from these countries have tortured and mutilated captured enemies.

This is NOT a "war", per se. This is an illegal occupation. The people who were tortured are CIVILIANS, not military!!!! So much for any "moral high ground". As the US/UK are allied, you are tarred with the same brush. You are war criminals. Unless the world sits together to make new Geneva Conventions, the old ones apply, whether you think so or not.

Say whatever you like, both countries suck big time.

I would agree with only part of your post. It is an illegal occupation, but the people who were tortured were both civilians and soldiers. Torturing is being used to gain intelligence and information, so wouldn't you agree that torturing civlians who probably have no idea what is going on, would be useless? It is SOLDIERS who are being tortured. But the difference is not important. Torture is torture.

I think torturing is OK to do on someone only if they have tortured you or someone you care about. I don't know about you, but I believe that it should be an eye for an eye. I imagine if someone were to torture one of my family members. I am a peaceful person who is an intellectual, but if someone did something like that to one of my family members or myself, and I had the chance to get even without getting caught by the state, then I would do the same thing to that person. I remind myself that I am not living by that standard. They are. If someone tortures another, then THEY have decided to live by the standard of pain and death, and should be treated as such.

If anyone who tortures gets a free pass, then torture will definitely continue, and INTENSIFY, just like all other non-punished crimes of force against humanity.

In war, individual judgments become less and less rational the longer it goes on, because of the constant threat of one's own death and seeing other deaths, and the effect this has on one's mind and interpretation of reality.

Perpetual war is the end of civilization for the country maintaining it. This statement is 100% absolutely true no ifs ands or buts. The proof is this (use simple logic! It's amazing what a little reasoning can do): If this statement is not true, then there must be a perpetual war civilization that has been at war since the start of all civilization on Earth. This civilization does not exist. Civilizations that engage in perpetual war disappear into the annals of history. Right now it is America at war with the world, and many people want the war to be a perpetual one! These people do not know history, philosophy, logic or reason. All they care about is power in the moment, and getting as much out of the system while they are still alive, because they do not care what happens after they die. They do not care about the future, they have given up on it. They have given up on it because they have given up on mankind.

HonestAbe @ 7:

Drew @ 3:

You would probably be horrified to know that in ALL wars, there is torture so inhumane that governments do everything they can to keep it secret. It's just that in our information age, these facts are now becoming known to the general public.

England, America, Iraq, Afghanistan, all the soldiers from these countries have tortured and mutilated captured enemies.

Unless orders come from above, brainwashing the soldiers in the process, that the enemy is sub-human. In Taxi to the Dark (scheduled to be on HBO in September), U.S. troops are told by commanders that the Iraqis are no better than dogs and should be treated as such.

"I was only following orders to kill subhumans" didn't work for Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. It shouldn't here, either.

Edwin @ 48:

Drew @ 45:

xoites defends Constitution @ 29:

Drew @ 3:

Just one more reason to oppose all wars.

Even if you are attacked? I think opposition to ALL wars is going too far and is immoral. People have the right to defend themselves with lethal force if they are going to be attacked or are being attacked with lethal force.

So why are the people fighting to protect their homes/families in Iraq labelled "terrorists"? They are freedom fighters.

PS Drew, I really liked your post [at] 44 and agree!!!! That's part of the reason I live in Asia now. Nothing like learning hands on. Broaden your horizons; read, travel, ask questions, live abroad. I have been removed from my North American shell and see the world complete;y differently now. North America is rich, but banal and ignorant of the world beyond.

I think they are labelled "terrorists" because this word implies that they are ALL enemies. If they are labelled "freedom fighters", then the military industrial complex would be fighting against freedom, which uh, is exactly what they are supposed to be fighting. All this of course is for you, me, and the soldiers. It's all just word-play used to mold and shape our opinions and judgments to fit in with what the establishment is doing. This is because they need our consent. They hate this fact, they wish they could just do what they want like communist leaders do it, but we still have a sliver, a hair, a shred, of freedom left in this country.

This little shred of liberty is so powerful a force, so much stronger than ANY standing army, that the establishment has to spend trillions of dollars and spend hundreds of thousands of hours in the media, employ thousands of "experts" and "academics", all for the sole purpose of convincing independent thinkers like me that what they are doing is just and moral!! This is why the force of liberty cannot die. If it does, then the thousand foot high wall of oppression and tyranny that has been waiting since Marx and Keynes gave intellectual sanction to the state (socialism, communism, fascism, whatever you want to call it), it is going to come crashing down like, well, a thousand foot high wall. Then you can say good-bye to freedom, and hello to RFID chips implanted in your arms.

But don't worry. You have people like me who are teaching as many people as we can about the philosophy of freedom and liberty. We will carry you on our shoulders. But it's getting heavier everyday, we need help.

BRITISH TROOPS SUSPECTED OF TORTURING AND MURDERING IRAQI CIVILIANS
Phil Shiner: "If it happened then it’s one of the most appalling chapters in the British army’s history."

OH, PLEASE, PHIL. What is only 20 lousy Iraqis? Come on! That is chump change for the British Lion, pal. Oh, I admit it isn't nice, but, why get all up in arms over this last in a long line of atrocities carried out under the Union jack?

What about the Highland clearances? What about Quebec City and the aftermath there? Ask French Canadians how they feel about the British Army to this day. What about the reaction to the Mau Mau's or the Zulu's or Sepoy's? How about the Dresden firebombing? Here is one for you, Phil: Ireland. Land stolen, Religion made illegal, literally MILLIONS allowed to starve, forcibly transported because of stealing FOOD, or made to immigrate and leave all they had ever known, owned, and loved behind. How about THAT for an atrocity carried out at the point of a British rifle, Phil? Feh on this trifle from Iraq!

Of course the incident happened including far worse. We only know the tip of the iceburg. Anyone who has even served a single day in Iraq knows that this stuff goes on. It really speaks to your level of denial that we are shocked when this news comes out.

JF @ 57:

Nothing new here:

Drew et.al.,
Your Comments above are right on target:

There were eyewitness accounts and conclusive evidence of civilians in Afghanistan being tortured to death in large numbers (more than 5000) before the end of 2001. This occurred not only at Bagram Air Force base but elsewhere as documented in the film documentary "Convoy of Death".

This Brit example, mentioned in this post, did not derive from the stress of war, as suggested by the BBC, but is part of long studied, tried and true tactics and strategy for colonizing weaker countries by terrorizing bludgeoning and killing the hope of the entire civilian population. The Brits used it against American civilians during our own Revolutionary War. What is different is the increased sophistication of the propaganda keeping us civilians placid, the propaganda of plausible denial, fabricated noble goals, and evidence provided by staged false flag attacks together with the hatred and entitlement constantly kindled and fanned by the dominated media.

As the readers of C&L probably already know video, pics, whistle-blowers, victims, documents and eyewitness accounts have been available online documenting civilian torture, executions, murder for entertainment and much more since this all began.

What is amazing is the ability of otherwise decent people to have this knowledge and continue to believe at the same time that we cannot stop the mass-murder or withdrawal immediately because there would be a blood-bath and we have a responsibility to stay to further protect and liberate the Iraqis, Afghanis,______(fill in the blank). This type of self delusion to avoid the terrible truth: The evil we are all enabling here is total with no mention of redeeming aspects or noble motivation proper.(My apologies to Fredrick Douglas).

Though it probably won’t happen in this day and age, what is needed is another impeachment of the president followed by another Church committee investigation. Remember those 25,000 Vietnamese civilians tortured and summarily executed as part of a single operation that did not come to light until admitted to under oath by the CIA in the 1975 "Church committee" hearings.

Torturing and executing civilians as a means of terrorizing entire civilian populations is a barbaric practice that the US has taken part in for well over a century and the Brits have been using for a few centuries. These practices, although officially banned by the US (after the Church Committee report in 1975), have continued without pause for the past thirty years. Now our own Supreme Court has been corrupted to the point where at least one justice (Scalia) feels comfortable supporting the torturing of (and mocking the tortured) American citizens kidnapped in the United States who have not been tried in any court for any crime (or, as in a prior example during oral argument, as punishment for a state penitentiary inmate not working at a level demanded).

Its time for the decent wake up. The same psychopaths who would order, justify or defend this kind of barbarism on innocent civilians outside this country would order it on large segments of American civilians if they believed if it could be done while they had the same level of impunity. No worries though, they are working hard to achieve that kind of impunity.

Peace
JF

If we bring our boys to trial, which I am all for, let's bring the French government from the 60s and surviving Soviet leaders on human rights violations, as well. Both superpowers, and there is much blood laid at our feet, were amoral greedy thugs on the international scene. So, let's try the French for Algeria, the (former) Soviets for the deaths of 60 million, the Khmer Rouge, the surviving Peronites, the surviving members of Pinochet's government, the surviving members of the Shah's government for their violations of human rights, the PRC and IRI, and every member of the Saudi government. Let's bring everyone who fucked up in the Cold War for both Capitalism and Communism on trial. With all the blood from that, it is necessary. BushCo haven't done anything different except in degree of bloodshed and incompetence.

Kevin C. @ 36:

One question: How does someone, while blindfolded, determine that up to fifteen people have been murdered?

BANG, thump. 1. BANG, thump. 2. BANG, thump. 3...

That was a tough one.

Drew,

Relative to your last post. Torture is never OK.

It has only two uses where it actually works:

1.Terrorizing a civilian population into submitting to tyranny.

2. Obtaining false confessions, and false disinformation etc. to be used for propaganda purposes such as defending or justifying past or ongoing crimes or legitimizing a future criminal agenda (esp. more mass-murder to be labeled pre-emptive or necessary). The US and the Brits have used it primarily in this way.

As successful veteran interrogators (from WWII and since then) have testified, torture does not work for obtaining credible intelligence (information). To obtain useful information requires using psychological techniques to gain trust and to impart a higher purpose on the turning over of information. It should be noted that even the Bushies know this and use these techniques that work when they actually want true info.

Don't be fooled into thinking that anyone ordering torture believes it will save US soldiers or anyone else.

samdog @ 63:

Drew @ 59:

General_Rennenkampf @ 52:

HonestAbe @ 7:

"I was only following orders to kill subhumans" didn't work for Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. It shouldn't here, either.

Of course you are absolutely right. But this thought carries with it some responsibility. You have to be willing to NOT support the troops anymore. Many people still support the troops for the same reason the German citizens supported the Nazis: They are just following orders.

But if anyone, I don't care who they are, decides to take orders to TORTURE someone else, then they deserve absolutely no respect or support from civilized society. We are better than that.

So you have to be willing to take all the shit from all the people who call you "traitor" or "unpatriotic", because you don't support the troops since they torture people now.

If anyone I knew tortured people, I wouldn't be their friend. Why should they be my friend just because they wear a rank ensignia and carry a flag? Fuck flags. All flags do is eradicate the individual and glorify the state. Flags have been worn by those who have slaughtered millions of people, in the name of their "flag".

I am an independent person with an independent mind, and I don't think for one moment that this should be sacrificed because some bunch of animals wearing the American flag are torturing who they perceive to be my enemies, all allegedly for my own good. I didn't want them in Iraq killing women and children, so THEY are the enemies of MINE. I think it's time for people to get more extreme in their views and start to upset more people, because being Mr. Nice Guy IS NOT WORKING ONE BIT ANYMORE.

Well said. I have nothing to add, except that i'd like a sticker that is a little stupid yellow ribbon with a nice big red circle around it with a line across the middle. I for on do not support "our" troops in their mission of lies and violence. Screw their sense of duty. Wrong is wrong, no matter how many flags you wrap around it.

I like your idea for the sticker. But if you choose to find one and stick it to your car or something, be prepared for eggs and tomatoes, or maybe worse.

Ahhh, to be an anti-war hippie. Our parents would be proud.

History repeats...(if you are ignorant of the past).

JF @ 64:

Drew,

Relative to your last post. Torture is never OK.

It has only two uses where it actually works:

1.Terrorizing a civilian population into submitting to tyranny.

2. Obtaining false confessions, and false disinformation etc. to be used for propaganda purposes such as defending or justifying past or ongoing crimes or legitimizing a future criminal agenda (esp. more mass-murder to be labeled pre-emptive or necessary). The US and the Brits have used it primarily in this way.

As successful veteran interrogators (from WWII and since then) have testified, torture does not work for obtaining credible intelligence (information). To obtain useful information requires using psychological techniques to gain trust and to impart a higher purpose on the turning over of information. It should be noted that even the Bushies know this and use these techniques that work when they actually want true info.

Don't be fooled into thinking that anyone ordering torture believes it will save US soldiers or anyone else.

Allied interrogators in WWII forbade it due to fear that Axis interrogators would retaliate. BushCo seems to forget a basic law of Arab society: eye for eye and tooth for tooth. Every one of the Arabs we torture means they must retaliate with one of our boys.

I know it probably was revenge for Saddam's attempt to assassinate Daddy, but what made Bush think he could win a guerilla war? Very few guerilla conflicts have worked. Ironically, one of them was through our radical guerilla forefathers in 1775-1783.

Drew @ 69:

JF @ 64:

Drew,

Relative to your last post. Torture is never OK.

It has only two uses where it actually works:

1.Terrorizing a civilian population into submitting to tyranny.

2. Obtaining false confessions, and false disinformation etc. to be used for propaganda purposes such as defending or justifying past or ongoing crimes or legitimizing a future criminal agenda (esp. more mass-murder to be labeled pre-emptive or necessary). The US and the Brits have used it primarily in this way.

As successful veteran interrogators (from WWII and since then) have testified, torture does not work for obtaining credible intelligence (information). To obtain useful information requires using psychological techniques to gain trust and to impart a higher purpose on the turning over of information. It should be noted that even the Bushies know this and use these techniques that work when they actually want true info.

Don't be fooled into thinking that anyone ordering torture believes it will save US soldiers or anyone else.

I'm not fooled, why think that? And torture in my judgment IS ok, but not for the reasons you give. If someone tortures me or people I care about is the only justified reason in my opinion. But the torturing going on is being used not as justice, but for other purposes, like intimidation, information, scare tactics, and perhaps even self enjoyment (e.g. pics of soldiers and prisoners at Abu Ghraib show it was for self amusement!!). Iraqis torture Americans, and Americans torture Iraqis, all for the purpose of winning wars, not administering justice.

Why torture people in a society where each bad action must be paid in full in return? The cycle of vendetta-and-counter-vendetta we're unleashing is what Muhammad himself tried to overcome in Islam to begin with. The Semitic peoples, Jews, Arabs, and Assyrians, are all fully schooled in vengeance. So, in a sense are Indo-Europeans. However, Americans in most cases are too arrogant to realize that they've just earned us undying enmity from the families of 1 million people, not to mention the Kurds whom Bush Sr. screwed over after Desert Storm. We will be paying this bill for decades, if not centuries.

White Russian soldiers and their families (who had never been under Soviet rule and thus were not eligible for deportation) captured at the end of WW2 and handed over to the Soviets for abuse and mass execution, by a compliant British Gov, Army and Soviet sympathizers in the UK establishment.

I was told that British skinhead squaddies in GW1 allegedly trussed up Iraqi POWs and ran them over with APCs in one incident.

Its never good being on the losing side when the officers are not in control, or politics trumps human rights.

Where do these people come from who act as if torture is an offshoot of war? Why? Civilians are caught in the middle of this hell so are poor people, the physically and mentally challenged, the elder and children. Why torture them? Sadist!

I despise people who get off on controlling and slowly killing any one.

I can't remember the poster (and I don't want to remember) who compared sausage making to war. Ridiculous!

Drew @ 73:

General_Rennenkampf @ 70:

Drew @ 69:

JF @ 64:

I'm not fooled, why think that? And torture in my judgment IS ok, but not for the reasons you give. If someone tortures me or people I care about is the only justified reason in my opinion. But the torturing going on is being used not as justice, but for other purposes, like intimidation, information, scare tactics, and perhaps even self enjoyment (e.g. pics of soldiers and prisoners at Abu Ghraib show it was for self amusement!!). Iraqis torture Americans, and Americans torture Iraqis, all for the purpose of winning wars, not administering justice.

Why torture people in a society where each bad action must be paid in full in return? The cycle of vendetta-and-counter-vendetta we're unleashing is what Muhammad himself tried to overcome in Islam to begin with. The Semitic peoples, Jews, Arabs, and Assyrians, are all fully schooled in vengeance. So, in a sense are Indo-Europeans. However, Americans in most cases are too arrogant to realize that they've just earned us undying enmity from the families of 1 million people, not to mention the Kurds whom Bush Sr. screwed over after Desert Storm. We will be paying this bill for decades, if not centuries.

This may scare some people, but Islam is going to eventually be the Earth's religion.

In WW2, the Jews were persecuted as being animals, terrorists, and were killed in genocidal fashion. That sort of treatment solidifies a people. Now that Jews have control of the Fed, they are now doing to Islam what the Nazis did to the Jews. Perceived enemies become real enemies. Once all the arabs of the world are put into camps (they are building thousands of camps in this country for instance), they will become persecuted like the Jews were. Once the world realizes the horrors of this, then the next stage will occur. Saying bad things about Arabs in the future is going to be as politically incorrect as saying bad things about Jews today. Once that happens, the Arabs will have the political and social freedom to enact THEIR ideas on the world, and once this happens, they will run the world.

This is what major wars do. They change our minds and our perceptions without many of us even realizing it. They change history.

Actually, Islam as a world religion might not be that bad, considering that in practice it beats every faith but Buddhism in egalitarianism. And....Drew....detecteth I some Anti-Semitism in you? You don't seem to like the Sons of Ishmael or Yitzahk. And stating Jews control the world when the only reason Israel survived to become the world's most formidable army is that Christian U.S. presidents have been propping it up is crap that exceeds even Diplodocus. Now we're talking Seismosaurus.

Drew @ 77:

General_Rennenkampf @ 76:

Drew @ 73:

General_Rennenkampf @ 70:

This may scare some people, but Islam is going to eventually be the Earth's religion.

In WW2, the Jews were persecuted as being animals, terrorists, and were killed in genocidal fashion. That sort of treatment solidifies a people. Now that Jews have control of the Fed, they are now doing to Islam what the Nazis did to the Jews. Perceived enemies become real enemies. Once all the arabs of the world are put into camps (they are building thousands of camps in this country for instance), they will become persecuted like the Jews were. Once the world realizes the horrors of this, then the next stage will occur. Saying bad things about Arabs in the future is going to be as politically incorrect as saying bad things about Jews today. Once that happens, the Arabs will have the political and social freedom to enact THEIR ideas on the world, and once this happens, they will run the world.

This is what major wars do. They change our minds and our perceptions without many of us even realizing it. They change history.

Actually, Islam as a world religion might not be that bad, considering that in practice it beats every faith but Buddhism in egalitarianism. And....Drew....detecteth I some Anti-Semitism in you? You don't seem to like the Sons of Ishmael or Yitzahk. And stating Jews control the world when the only reason Israel survived to become the world's most formidable army is that Christian U.S. presidents have been propping it up is crap that exceeds even Diplodocus. Now we're talking Seismosaurus.

Actually I am part Jewish, so happily I am allowed to say something about it. I am not against PEOPLE in any way, I am against certain IDEAS, and unfortunately for a lot of people, many ideas are derived from religion. I never said Jews control the world, I said they controlled the Fed, and the Fed controls the world.

And your point about US Presidents "propping" it up does not contradict what I said. Only those Presidents who are sympathetic to Israel end up becoming Presidents. It's by design. You will never see an anti-zionist President in our lifetime.

Zionist =|= Jewish. Many of Israel the state's practices are a big no-no in traditional Judaism. No self-respecting Israelite from Judah ever would name themselves Nimrod or Omri for instance, and early Zionism was a very secular, Semitic form of nationalism.

Drew @ 79:

General_Rennenkampf @ 78:

Drew @ 77:

General_Rennenkampf @ 76:

Actually I am part Jewish, so happily I am allowed to say something about it. I am not against PEOPLE in any way, I am against certain IDEAS, and unfortunately for a lot of people, many ideas are derived from religion. I never said Jews control the world, I said they controlled the Fed, and the Fed controls the world.

And your point about US Presidents "propping" it up does not contradict what I said. Only those Presidents who are sympathetic to Israel end up becoming Presidents. It's by design. You will never see an anti-zionist President in our lifetime.

Zionist =|= Jewish. Many of Israel the state's practices are a big no-no in traditional Judaism. No self-respecting Israelite from Judah ever would name themselves Nimrod or Omri for instance, and early Zionism was a very secular, Semitic form of nationalism.

Ya, but they were persecuted by almost every other society (except Holland during the enlightenment, and France under Napolean). I think that forcing a country to be made in the middle of the arab world was a dumb idea. They should have brought them all here to Arizona, because at least in this country Judaism is relatively free from oppression.

You mean where the Navajo and Tono'O'odham have their reservations. Brilliant. And Leo Frank would disagree with the Judaism is relatively free bit. I suppose if you were to ship the Israelites after the Holocaust somewhere, at least ship them to a place where they wouldn't bother many people, like say, the Canadian interior? Not that many people there, and so Israel would be a North American phenomenon.

horrifying? YES! surprising? NO!

General_Rennenkampf @ 60

Thanks for your response.

Condensed vs of what you said:

“If we bring our boys to trial, which I am all for, let's bring the French government from the 60s and … rights violations, as well.…
“….So, let's try ….the surviving members of Pinochet's government, the surviving members of the Shah's government for their violations of human rights….
…Let's bring everyone who fucked up in the Cold War for both Capitalism and Communism on trial. With all the blood from that, it is necessary. BushCo haven't done anything different except in degree of bloodshed and incompetence.

General,

You are preaching to the choir. I agree. We need “Nuremberg trials” for the extended Bush crime family as well as for any other government leaders who have committed such egregious war crimes and grotesque crimes against humanity. If we don’t, we will indeed have perpetual war and the resulting economic and standard of living hardships. Oh and we will be subjected to tyranny. We have to have the trials to take the profit out of this evil-doing or it will only grow, metastasize, and devour us.

As you know, the brutal dictatorships of the Pinochet and Iranian Shah governments you mention were put into power by the US when US coups overthrew freely elected democracies. Their atrocities were directed by and enabled by the US.

Much of the Cold war was also a fabricated pretense. It was the "military industrial complex" that Eisenhower warned us about that consciously, out of their desire for perpetual war, kept Americans afraid (terrorized) when the only real threat to us (possible nuclear annihilation by the Soviets) was the direct result of these war profiteer’s massive nuclear and military buildup along with their fear mongering propaganda campaign. We now know that even Stalin made repeated overtures for disarmament which were snubbed. The Soviets endangered us by responding to the threat with their own massive conventional and nuclear build up. They were terrified that we would attack (and we would have as many politicians and military brass boasted) if they could not arm enough to deter the attack. The entire civilian population of the Soviet Union suffered from all of the money going into a military build-up to defend against an external threat rather than going to rebuild their lives and infrastructure after being destroyed in WWII (along with what 27 ? million Russians killed).

General_Rennenkampf, you were wrong however, when you said:

"BushCo haven't done anything different except in degree of bloodshed and incompetence"

..on both accounts"
A: Incompetence: He has been competent in achieving his goals and those of his handlers:

1. Destabilizing the terrorizing the governments (not already Brit or US puppets) and terrorizing the civilians of all countries (not protected by another nuclear power) that have significant extractable energy or mineral resources.
2. Inserting the US military and building permanent bases for the empire throughout and surrounding these same areas
3. Destroying all democracies (republics and otherwise) and movements for self-determination (except those that would help fragmentize (balkanize) any area that might be able to resist etc
4. Maximizing and subsidizing the profits of the energy Corps and the War Profiteers. (You need only look at Exxon and Condoleezza’s Chevron etc.)
5. etc

B. Bush No different: Your main assertion, implying that Bush and his crime family are no worse than prior American leaders is wrong. Never has any American president or, leader of another nuclear power, or as far as I know, the leader of any country in the past 50 years claimed the right to torture much less bragged about it or mocked the tortured. Bush has proudly bragged almost incessantly about his right to use and need for "enhanced interrogation techniques" (torture) and, while thumbing his nose at the rule of law, Congress, and the courts, bragged that he would continue to commit the crimes. He has continuously pressured, blackmailed and attempted to coerce Congress into legalizing (retroactively) his ongoing worldwide torture and terror campaign. He had his attorneys redefine torture so he could both falsely claim he does not torture and, to use the variation of “following orders” defense, claim he was just following his attorneys directives. He has defied the US Supreme court and Congress while directly violating, defying and destroying the US Constitution and violating his oath of office. The list itself of his crimes that are different, more numerous, more egregious and treasonous than prior rulers could fill a book.

Bush has many other shameful firsts proving he is indeed different. But,, despite the terrible dishonor Bush has brought on this country and perhaps more freightening are those in the American public that have been corrupted into defending or partially excusing this madness, and even more shamefully a US Congress that continues to violate their oath of office by continuing to enable virtually everything Bush is doing to destroy every noble principle that this country has stood for and virtually all the principles on which this country was founded.

“We should speak frankly now, the hour is getting late.” We need to wake up and defend our Constitution, our freedom, and our country against the most ominous and determined enemy this country has ever faced. To paraphrase Bush, the enemy is not surrounding the country, the enemy is ruling the country.

Peace
JF

samdog @ 56:

BRITISH TROOPS SUSPECTED OF TORTURING AND MURDERING IRAQI CIVILIANS
Phil Shiner: "If it happened then it’s one of the most appalling chapters in the British army’s history."

OH, PLEASE, PHIL. What is only 20 lousy Iraqis? Come on! That is chump change for the British Lion, pal. Oh, I admit it isn't nice, but, why get all up in arms over this last in a long line of atrocities carried out under the Union jack?

What about the Highland clearances? What about Quebec City and the aftermath there? Ask French Canadians how they feel about the British Army to this day. What about the reaction to the Mau Mau's or the Zulu's or Sepoy's? How about the Dresden firebombing? Here is one for you, Phil: Ireland. Land stolen, Religion made illegal, literally MILLIONS allowed to starve, forcibly transported because of stealing FOOD, or made to immigrate and leave all they had ever known, owned, and loved behind. How about THAT for an atrocity carried out at the point of a British rifle, Phil? Feh on this trifle from Iraq!

Haditha was nothing. There happened to be an Iraqi journalist/filmmaker there that day. He captured the dead on film in their pajamas, the official report was that 19 civilians were killed by a roadside bomb, kind of hard to hide the evidence though on film. The story fell apart, the cover up was at the highest levels. It happens all the time, its routine in the rules of war (The 5 in the taxi were listed as "insurgents")

Phil Shiner: If it happened then it’s one of the most appalling chapters in the British army’s history.

Wow, that's absurd. Yeah, I'm sure that whole imperialist period saw nothing of the kind.

JF@84

Very well said.

Drew @ 44:

HonestAbe @ 7:

Drew @ 3:

You would probably be horrified to know that in ALL wars, there is torture so inhumane that governments do everything they can to keep it secret. It's just that in our information age, these facts are now becoming known to the general public.

England, America, Iraq, Afghanistan, all the soldiers from these countries have tortured and mutilated captured enemies.

Unless orders come from above, brainwashing the soldiers in the process, that the enemy is sub-human. In Taxi to the Dark (scheduled to be on HBO in September), U.S. troops are told by commanders that the Iraqis are no better than dogs and should be treated as such.

I'm definitely NOT going to watch it. I know what is going to be shown in the movie, but I think to myself that I will not be a better person after watching it. Nothing good can come from it. The knowledge I already have, so I'm going to miss nothing. I saw beheadings with my own eyes and it scarred me for life, the only thing I can do now is teach everyone about the philosophy of freedom and liberty and self-education, for I now know with 100% sureness that the way the world is, if you rely on others to teach you the truth by simply taking everything in as it happens, you will become a sheep ready for the slaughterhouse. If you then choose to teach others while being a sheep you then do the world a double harm.

I say read more, and educate yourself more. Sure we're busy, but we're busy with things that are for the most part unimportant. I think the one thing that is killing us is ignoring self-education. Our educational system does not and cannot teach us what we need to know, because what we need to know goes against the very system that is educating us! I think people who say pshaw to this, and say "whatever, free schooling is necessary", then these people for some reason or another have mentally enslaved themselves to think that "the establishment" is by its existence the best there is. This logical fallacy of appealing to the status quo is supposed to be taught in the schools, but almost nobody really understands it. That is proof our educational system is going to the shitter. If you do not understand basic logic like this, then you have no way of further evolving and raising your consciousness to more complex issues like liberty and societal stuctures. You become progressively unable to cope with the changing world and have no way to deal with it other than appealing to authority, status quo, popularity, and other lazy and destructive ways of thinking.

How exactly do the contradictions in your long post rant tie in together? Did you bother reading about Taxi to the Dark Side? What does it have to do with your seeing beheadings with your own eyes?

Acting Patriotic @ 38:

"Don't count prisoners when loading them onto aircraft...only when taking them off." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDsA6X1japA

"Shoot everything that moves." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6yXxvKtnEY

"Just because they were bored." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OXtp9KV9jc

Thank you for these links. Very powerful stuff. I remember being in college in the mid seventies and meeting vets in bars and around campus and I remember that, to a man, they never wanted to talk about Vietnam, and we quickly learned not to bring it up or ask them about it. The guys would get a look on their faces which I cannot describe but will never forget. It was like they'd seen hell and couldn't stand to be reminded of what it looked like.

This is simply a rhetorical question that has nothing particularly to do with torture, the Brits, or anything else except one particular word in the headline of this thread...Since nobody in Al Qaida or any of these bombers or anti-American Shiites or Sunnis or whomever wear UNIFORMS, how the hell does anybody know who is a "civilian"????

I guess the Brits are figurin, hell, if the 'worlds cop' can do it.. Why the hell not... See kids? This is why developing critical thinking skills are so important.. So, stay in school kids and learn that critical thinking shit, lest you grow up to be some braindead retarded lamo who ends up in some position of power........And starts thinkin just because that guy over there is kicking sand in everyones face, that it must be OK........JD

With all my typos I guess y'all can tell I'm a Type O Negative fan.

Don't believe it myself. Execution in a quiet side street or in the countyside maybe. On a base? With gunfire?

Total Bollocks.

jack damage @ 103:

Well Gen-rul and JF... I totally agree and support your ascertions and positions on these matters.... Regarding both American as well as other nations pols in latter 20th century history whom are guilty of crimes against humanity... Round em all up for a date with justice...Build the hanging scaffords, issue the weapons and line up the firing squads... I do think the Enola Gay boys are all dead and gone now...

But they were just pawns anyway, like everyone else who lived, fought and died in that war... Harry Truman, issued the order... You probably want him and Robert Oppenheimer and some of those other theory cats probably. They're the ones you want in the docket for Hiroshima and Nagasaki...but then, they're all dead too just like the Shah, just like Wild Bill whatisname, the CIA spook who got it all up and going and died in the early 80s.
Just like 99 percent of all the other bad guys of the 20th century.

Be that as it may... These details, what I really want to know guys is this; Just who do we think we can trust now to round up these international political and ideological miscreants.. Those who haven't escaped the hands of justice thru the inconvenient means of dying off that is..... It's like killing off pedophiles... You kill this one, then you have to kill the one that molested him.. And then you find out you have to kill some other guy cause he molested the molester who molested him... Gets pretty messy and next thing you know, your digging up graves all the way back to who knows what ancient era.... Because pedophilia begets pedophilia... And tyranny begets tryanny.... I guess all us Americans are/were pretty stupid for thinking we and our leaders would be immune to this insidious sickness. Especially in the 20th century.. .The bloodiest one to date.... I'm pretty sure you can look that one up in a history book somewheres already.... Now that's naivety of the highest order.... or maybe just a refusal to face reality... no white hats after all......

So, truth is, I just don't know about getting them all.. We could go to a certain spot in Berlin and dig up a shovelful of dirt, call it Hitler and put it on trial too... Amounts to about the same as trying to put everyone who fucked people and cultures over in the previous 100 years to accounts... But I do think, if we can get past that tangent... We ought to hold George Bush junior, and senior, (yea, its about that depeted uranium munitions shit gramps), Dick Cheney, Condi Rice and pretty much all the senior members of the Bush crime family responsible for what has occurred while they held the reigns of power and abused the shit out of it... I can really back that...

Of course I still don't know who we can get to round them up... Junior and his crew have perverted a significant percentage of the nations law enforcement capabilities so it's pretty sketchy as far as who would slap cuff on em... Congress??? Hahahah, that's a laff, the armed forces?? Not likely, so who? Beats me... Guess that's one of the reasons I have, of late, been more cynically snarky and less outright ranty in my posts... It's all just more and more seeming like a poorly managed stage production with the ending already written with all the perps getting away after a final curtin call bow.... We just haven't been exposed to the final act yet....I wish someone would prove me wrong on this...please.... These asses really need to pay for what they have done to all of us and our nation..................JD

Thank you. Though, as a person with a real interest in history, I do wonder how much of the 20th Century's casulty rates were due to the higher population of that century as opposed to bloodier ideologies, whether capitalist or communist. Regardless of how much the numbers being higher impacted it, in the 20th Century, nobody had clean hands.