The Guardian: The Surge May Be On The Verge Of Collapse
By Logan Murphy Thursday Mar 20, 2008 8:33am
Download | play 
Download | play (h/t BillW)
Our occupation of Iraq and the fragile surge has been all but blacked out in the U.S. media, but thankfully, the foreign press is still out there trying to bring the truth to the rest of the world. A big part of the surge was the Awakening Project. The goal of the project was to pay Sunni and former insurgents to fight al Qaeda and drive them out of their towns. The result is 80,000 angry men and a surge on the brink of collapse.
Despite spending some $12 billion dollars a month in Iraq, the Bush administration has failed to pay most of the Awakening members and their patience is all but gone. Thousands of men have given up and walked away from the program and resentment toward the U.S. has reached a boiling point. This video from The Guardian is a real eye opener as they go inside these groups and let them tell their stories in their own words.
They hear news accounts that the U.S. military is taking credit for the surge and they are angered. They feel that they are doing the dirty work that Americans should be doing and they feel they're being used as propaganda to sway the U.S. presidential elections. Senator John McCain has staked his entire presidential campaign on Iraq and the success of the surge. I hope that he, along with all Americans, has the chance to watch this video and see the real surge.
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Frist.
Sorry Logan, just my opinion, but I would assume with the financial mess of recent weeks, you'd be hard pressed to find any Americans that really care much about what is going on in Iraq, except to blame them for the economy sinking. Definitely a video worth watching though for those that do care.
And, of course, they get to keep their shiny new rifles, right?
We've rearmed factions that will ultimately turn against us. Brilliant.
Well gee whiz, after you get finished paying KBR for multicolored embroidered towels, infectious bathing water, and faulty wiring that electrocutes our solidiers, there's just no money left to pay the people you're pretending aren't actually the ones keeping the violence down. What's a Bushie to do??
Their incompetence will sink them in the end.
Their incompetence has caused over a million deaths.
No matter what Bush says, history will never vindicate his reputation.
Nothing - no presidential library, no glowing hagiography - will right the wrongs his incompetent leadership unleashed on Iraq.
I am furious at that man every fucking day.
Just think. Had the U.S. simply done business with the Middle East over the past century there wouldn't be any Al Qaeda at all.
It's incredible to imagine what the world might have looked like if we hadn't sought full global hegemony. We should have listened to Eisenhower:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
Blowback's a bitch.
Lied to, cheated, and double-crossed by the incompetent Bush administration ... imagine that.
It's more of the Bush "Midas" Touch - anything he touches turns to shit.
He praised the one sheik who stood up to fight al-Qaeda ... and al-Qaeda offed him inside of a couple of days.
He's called the economy strong, and it's turned to mud.
He's praised the surge, but his pet general, Petraeus, says the Iraqis aren't working hard enough, and Cheney had to go give 'em a pep talk.
Now, he's praised the 'Anbar Awakening,' and we hear that it's really falling apart.
Three failed companies and the bungled management of a MLB team really told us everything we needed to know, but people didn't pay attention.
this is from a dispatches documentary on channel 4 the other night, download the whole thing here-
http://onebigtorrent.org/torrents/3007/Iraq-The-Betrayal-2008-03-17-Ch-4...
Two centuries of war history and still we thought THIS time war would solve all our problems...
American Voters to John McCain:
"what now Einstein?"
Obama cannot win you idiots. I cannot believe that the Democrats are blowing this one big time.
[please don't start something I'll have to finish.....................Site Monitor]
Read about the US Occupation from another perspective and see if what bush and cheney fits with what the people living there have to say.
This is a great article!!
FOCUS IRAQI VOICES
'Iraq is a war-torn nation'
By Faruq S. Ziada
Five years later, Bush says his decision to go to war was the right one [AFP]
"They feel that they are doing the dirty work that Americans should be doing ..."
Yes, because why should Iraqis have any interest in cleaning up Iraq? It's not like they live there or anything... oh, wait. I can understand the part about them wanting due credit, but to think that their nation's stability is the responsibility of Americans -- or that Americans are even capable of bringing it there -- is just silly.
If the US promised to pay them for their efforts, they should follow through. But the fact that these people need to be paid in the first place for something which is in their best interest is kinda disturbing. That's like paying me to finally visit the doctor so I can deal with the large, painful, ominous tumor growing on my torso. As if I'm doing you a favor.
This election should be a cakewalk but... The Democrats have bought into the repubs lies about hillary and now they are going to lose.
What would it matter if McCain sees the film?
He has his orders and he'll carry them out.
Yes, the Guardian, that bastion of journalistic integrity. Yawn.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 2:
Geez CC...alot of us do care. ALOT. I will concede though, that there are alot that don't give shit about anything that isn't right in front of them.
Arm local militia's, and then anger them. Wonderful.. are they worried history won't will repeat itself and therefore going that extra mile? I mean.. wtf?
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 18:
I realize you and a number of posters on here do. But the way things are going, and have gone, people pay little attention except when making talking points. It's sad. Actually no, strike that, tragic. But with people struggling just to live in both your country and mine, they don't have the time or energy to give to this disaster that deserves it.
I know when my company is back geared up after this winter finally finishes, I never have much time to watch the tv news, or be online, and neither does my spouse.
anon123 @ 19:
"But this time will be different!" is a standard excuse for drunks.
Never mind that the Brits armed locals when fighting in Afghanistan, then lost some of their best troops when they got religion and defected.
Never mind that we armed the mujahadeen and they turned into the Taliban.
This time will be different!
Surge this Bush.
RickinSF @ 16:
McCain would fall asleep.
Captain Kangaroo @ 23:
Or want to go shopping with Lindsy Graham.
If the Republicans ran Jesus Christ and the Democrats ran Hitler the Democrats would still win!!! The Republicans can't even win with Rush Limbaughs voter fraud!!!
Yes how rude of them to not want to clean up the mess WE created!!!
Religious leaders, police officers, doctors, last time I checked they all got paid!?!?!?!?
THANK YOU GUARDIAN! One of the LAST reliable THINKING news sources!
When I sit down and think "What would I do to fix this?" I come up blank. There is no solution - it's too far gone and too complicated. Staying won't work, leaving won't work, supporting one side won't work. They hate the U.S. more than ever! What are the other options???
As stated earlier, the uniquely Republican blend of arrogance + incompetance is (remains) the fatal flaw in the US occupation. I don't think we have no money left over to pay these guys $300 per month. To the contrary, I think its quite likely that $300 per head per month was paid - but it often doesn't get to them. I doubt we're letting each man come up and collect. It goes to some higher up Iraqi to distribute. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.
And, no, I'm not trying to blame Iraqi corruption either. After all, who has been aiding/installing Chalabi-types into positions of power? What kind of example of corruption & kickbacks do our contractors make for Iraqi society? What occupying power would have only 11 Arabic speakers out of 900 embassy employees in Baghdad? The list goes on and on.
Republican arrogance/incompetance - from Bremer's firing all Iraqi police/army/civil-employees back in 2003, letting KBR farm out all the rebuilding efforts,to not understanding the political/religious players in Iraq's society, through to this short-sighted arming/training of potential future combatants - will be our undoing. This is what happens when Republicans place party loyalty above all else. And it costs lives: in Iraq, in New Orleans, in coal mines.
BTW, I have relatives from the old Soviet Union. This type of mismanagement by loyal party hacks who don't know or care about doing their civic jobs is exactly what they hated about the USSR. Now we're duplicating it here.
Instead of bringing the "troops" home, I think the soldiers (hired killers) should stay there and go to work killing for another country. Maybe they can start a war with the Blackwater hired killers.
Thanks for this clip. What an explosive mess Bush and his incompetent cronies have brought upon that poor country. Seems the civil-war will erupt again soon.
How is it possible that the media completely follows whatever is coming out of Washington? Would they not dig a bit deeper to find the truth? All in the US beleive the surge is working.....Yikes.
RH Potfry @ 17:
As opposed to the Washington Times or The National Review or The Weekly Standard or The American Enterprise Institute or The Heritage Foundation or Fox "News"?
RH Potfry @ 17:
You should then point out all of their errors. Odd that you chose not to do so. It is always a clever tactic to claim that the source is unreliable when you have absolutely nothing else to say. It is the "You are a poopy-head" approach and most impressive.
[deleted. check your attitude. see the commenting policy. sitemonitor]
I'm confused, I thought our tax dollars were being spent to pay the al-Sadr Shiites not to attack us. You mean our billions are also being pissed away to keep the Sunnis quiet too?
Kimble @ 35:
Surge working great? For an alternative view take a look here:
http://arabwomannews.blogspot.com/
Be sure to scroll down and take a look at the pictures. Don't turn your head. NSW
YourMom @ 28:
Stationing the whole fricking Bush Administration in a tent in Anbar Province.
But seriously (and sadly), you've got it in a nutshell.
I think our only option is withdrawal - and to take our lumps for having gone in without a mission or an effective strategy (we needed both a practical military aspect and a means of engaging the Iraqi populace as well as the government). And, for all that the GOP likes to whine about people who feel they're entitled to something, the way we've handled this situation has done nothing but create a dependent nation.
That means coming to terms with the very things the Bush Administration thought they were fighting against. We'll be looking at an unstable local government that can be exploited by a number of factions, though I'd worry about al-Sadr, Iran, and al-Qaeda Iraq in that order - the first leads to a theocratic state under Shari'a Law, which will then seek out its like-minded brethren in Iran.
We will be facing a backlash throughout the Middle East - we demonstrated nothing but arrogance in tromping into Iraq and thinking 'democracy' consists of throwing an election and seating a parliament. But the other Middle East countries have seen an unpleasant side of America - the 'we'll come in and fuck with your countries because we're serving a higher cause (Democracy, Christ Jesus, or Capitalism, take your pick)'.
There's really no sense to the 'if we pull out, it will embolden them and they'll come here' - because it treats terrorists as if a) there are finite numbers, and b) they are so stupid they'll line up to enter Iraq, just because we're there. Our opposition in Iraq is not so much the cream of al-Qaeda's forces, but opportunistic thugs reaping the benefits of a deer-in-the-headlights leadership.
Strategically speaking, they're mobile and we're not - so we've lost the initative and any hope of victory. (But the chickenhawk brigades and the 101st Chairborne assure us a will-to-victory is enough.)
That a Leftie newspaper should engage in such wishful thinking is not at all remarkable.
Nor particularly important. The fact is that the surge is working, and the nutball Left just can't stand it.
Bye Bye McCain. With the collapse of the Awakening Project goes his candidacy; into the sewers of Iraq. Although we would have all hoped that this project would have been successful, McCain was showing off his C student intelligence when he pinned everything on "the surge".
The Sunnis know what the story is. No 'surge" of 30,000-40,000 American troops would ever make any practical difference in Baghdad and definitely would not have made any difference throughout the entire nation at all. The Sunnis know that they are the bulwark that the Bush Administration is reliant upon. To offset the Iranian backed Shia the Bush Administration has to arm, and arm heavily the Sunni faction. The Sunnis can name their terms because they know also that without them, the Bush Administration's scheme falls apart. So, the Sunnis can and will make huge demands that apparently are not being met. They can simply walk away if those demands are not met and let the Americans tangle with the Shia again.
How ironic, the Bush Administration entered Iraq under the guise of removing the Sunni dominated Hussein Government only to be heavily arming them afterwards.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 20:
Yeah we'll all miss you.
are you telling me that for $800,000 per day we could have an Iraqi fighting force that is clearly on our side? Why have an Iraqi Army for that price when for 500 times more you can have an American occupation that continues to foment anger and aggression towards us?
When all these neocons eventually meet their maker, I wouldn't be surprised if he says "no" and turns them away. Because my maker is a peace loving God, not a God of endless war and suffering.
John Faber @ 40:
I'm sorry Mr. Faber but there is no 30,000-40,000 extra troops alive that would have made any difference. That was simply a political show. The real moves were the payoffs and arming of the Sunnis and the deals cut with the Iranian backed Shia. Al Sadr still has the cease fire in place. If Sunni the "Awakening Council" walks away the Iranian backed shia will have no choice but to renew the fighting. If that happens then the Bush Administration will be right back to square one.
Bush couldn't even tie his own shoes, much less run a war.
John Faber @ 40:
Of course the surge is working. That's why McCain had to find a different marketplace to go for a stroll in. That's why Kyra Phillips had Iraqis lining up around the block to tell her how wonderful life is in Iraq.
And I can't wait to hear Petraeus' song-and-dance in a couple of weeks.
But I'm sure you think things will be better in six months.
What the right can't stand is that this ugly little war is getting in the way of them bathing their corrupt asses in oil. Like a complete rube buying into the old 'stick it out at the gaming table' nonsense, you're losing your shirts. (Your souls were sold to someone else when you weren't looking.)
The next president should be grateful that Bush is such an expert at stratergy. Anyone remember the name of the one confirmed person whose life was irrefutably saved by Bush and his GWOT? Chris?
Assassin @ 14:
Good question - probably because we went in there and fucked it up so badly.
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You're right. Except for the few million who've fled for their own safety or are dead due to our incompetent handling of their security they do live there - and what exciting adventurous lives they lead! Ingrates!!
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Just cuz we fucked it up, doesn't mean we gotta fix it - you must be rough on the budget at the local drive throughs, Assassinine...
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Going by our track record so far, any expectations of ethical responsible competence is not just silly, it's 'we'tarded.
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And keep an agreement that might lead to any kind of long-term success? Now who's being naive, Assassinine?
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Yes, you seem quite disturbed.
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Sorry to hear about your tumor...if you'll just list a P.O. box, I'd be happy to send a motivational dollar to help you with your craniectomy, Richard...and thanks for finally getting that taken care of.
John Faber @ 40:
Please explain about the political reconciliation, which was the goal of the surge. Tell us of these great successes.
YourMom @ 28:
Unfortunately I feel it will be the world attacking the US and putting it back "in it's place" and trying your leaders and media propogandists for warcrimes. It's obvious you guys won't.
Arm them, promise them dinars, send them out to do the dirty work then crap on them...sounds like a recipe for success, Bush style.
Leaving Iraq is the only thing that will work. People need to stop thinking that we know whats best for Iraqi's. Foreigners have no damn right to decide what is best for them- let them have their politics and their issues to fix, its not the American taxpayer's responsibility to keep up this occupation for even another hour.
Captain Kangaroo @ 22:
Here, let me help you with that, cap'n:
....................../´¯/)
....................,/¯../
.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`•¸
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
.........\.................'.~./
..........\............... _.•´
............\..............(
..............\.............\..
P.S. Cut'n'save for future bush salutations.
;-}
Assassin @ 14:
Wow, didn't notice that. Good point, dude.
so basically we are paying off the iraq's to keep order in there own country?? Now they feel entitled. Un-fing-real!!!! Good job Bush, im mean ya know, once you open up that can of worms, its so easy to keep it closed.
How much of failure can one person be?
John Faber @ 40:
Surge schmerge. Once the Awakened groups break off Iraq will be right back to where it was last year.
John Faber @ 40:
Your lysdexia must be kicking in. Here, I'll fix that for you:
That a contardianfucknut should engage in uncited refutation is not at all remarkable.
But particularly impotent. The fact is that you need a surgeon to remove the growth on your shoulders from its dislocation proximal to your left nutball.
33
Erroll Says:
RH Potfry @ 17:
Yes, the Guardian, that bastion of journalistic integrity. Yawn.
As opposed to the Washington Times or The National Review or The Weekly Standard or The American Enterprise Institute or The Heritage Foundation or Fox “News”?
and we should add CBS, NBC, ABC, MSNBC, CNN, ALL THE NATIONAL NEWSPAPERS, PBS AND THE REST OF THE ENTIRE CORPORATE MEDIA. The corporate/ repiglican media is a fucking natural disgrace .. almost like a criminal enterprise akin to the Mafia. The are indeed the 'new axis of evil' and should be charged , tried, and convicted for purposeful, criminal, fraud committed against the American people. They sit there looking at you thru you TV screens, all dressed up in the million dollar suites/ ties and dresses, looking at you with a straight face, and fucking lying to you will they collect their million dollar paydays to do the bidding of the corporations that hire them.
IAVA (iraq and afgan vets of america) has an open letter to the corp. media outlets to protest the lack of coverage of the wars.
IAVA says:
"After five years of war, media coverage is at an all time low. Just 3% of the news is devoted to the war in Iraq."
www.iava.org
on their front page, click on the "Action Alert"
if you also take a miinute to sign up for updates they will e-mail you whenever they have petitions or letters like this one.
once again the other outlets have been manipulated by the fox. about a yr ago fox got on a spiel about how the media was reporting nothing but bad news from the wars...."Why don't they report on all the good that is going on there?"
they gave a tiny try to find enough schools in operation, they tried to do stories on clean water and a working elec. grid, but seems there just weren't enough good stories so heck, lets not report on a goddamn thing.
that's where we are now. most american citizens have no idea how many iraqis, afgans, allies or americans got killed or horribly maimed this week.
i realized with a shock that i am one of those. course i don't have a telly but i read the headlines in the union tribune and the la times every day and i see no shocking headlines about senseless suffering, death and destruction. isn't that news worthy?
We're Americans. We buy our way out of trouble.
YourMom @ 28:
Bullshit. Leaving WILL work on many levels. Might be a bumpy short term ride, but that's what we got right now. The U.S. is the major destabilizing force in Iraq.
John Faber @ 40:
Remember to click the heels of your ruby slippers together, Dorothy.
Justin @ 44:
Hopefully they'll face an eternity of "enhanced interrogation techniques" from that "eye for an ey" guy in the old testament.
No. 44 @ 5:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm afraid that the rest of the world is not going to hate just george bush.
after ww2 ppl hated the germans, the japanese. they will hate us.
the german citizens said "we didn't know"
we know.
solid @ 63:
Excellent point. What seems to be lacking with so many Americans is any semblance of the word empathy. Perhaps, just perhaps, if more Americans were to try and visualize what it would be like to have a tank roll down their street or to have a foreign soldier walk in their town wearing battle fatigues and especially carrying an assault rifle, then they might finally realize why the Iraqis and the Afghanis want the U.S. to get the hell out of their countries as quickly and as rapidly as possible. But for so many [alleged] patriotic Americans, neoliberalism and American exceptionalism can never be questioned.
Surge failing?.... Gee what a fucking surprise that is...... Bush? Yer an IDIOT! And that's the about the best thing that can be said about you,
ARRRGHH!!!!! JD
So....when does this clip get played on national television?
We ARE the new Soviet Union. WE are the ones who don't get the truth or free press. WE are the ones who are fed lies, over and over and over again.
Welcome ot USSR.....thanks chimp and co.
Hulk @ 69:
Fuck the msmotherfuckers, they ain't gonna help us... Time ta get our ground game on, and hammer/cajole/charm everyone we know and run into with that fact and come here for a look.
OK @ 36:
Anybody know the name of the Iraqi org or 'cult' which has a large base, large number of followers and 2000 vehicles inc APCs tanks etc, it was in existence under Sadams's rule and survived 2003 at least up to 05/06.
I read an article about them a few years ago but didnt pay much attention at the time, I cant remember the orgs name, and they might have a female leader.
They are considered a quasi religious org from what I remember from the tone of the article, and not one of the main players in the news from Iraq.
coleshack @ 62:
That's old school, now we borrow our way out of one problem and into another.
Proud2bHumble Hus(in)sein @ 70:
I work in television news. I sometimes think we're as much a victim of the 'wag the dog' mentality as the rest of America. We're too easily distracted, too easily led - because we're overly concerned about being first with a 'breaking story,' or anguishing about how broadcast is losing market share to the internet, we don't see how we're being played for chumps.
In fact, we let a bunch of poseurs set up shop and push the 'mainstream media' meme. Obviously, I'm not saying we're perfect, but the same people who are busy selling 'fear the brown people' and 'Obama ain't black enough/Obama be too black' are the same ones selling this meme.
In this, we're just as bad as the Democrats. Too afraid of calling out turds in the national security/pre-emptive war game, they get reframed constantly as being cowards and 'weak on defense.' Same thing for the media - call a turd on a GOP talking point, and some other dead skunk is dragged across your path. Suddenly, we're talking about the dead skunk, and not the turd.
America has been raped blind by the folks who are busy telling you that 'values matter, facts don't.' They're selling something other than facts - they're selling validation. Want to validate your belief in Creationism? Here's John Gibson, telling you there's a War on Christmas and Christians. Want to validate your petty race hatred? Why, there's Bill O'Reilly to tell us Barack ain't black enough, and, wow, did you know them black people use forks?
But there are no Edward R. Murrows to call out these bastards for peddling hate and ignorance (though Keith Olbermann does his level best).
Hunter S. Thompson had it right - this is a long, plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men (and women) die like dogs, for no good reason.
Well, you can't pay everyone, and it is more important that Halliburton, Bechtel and Blackwater get theres. The bonus on this is that when the Iraqis we were supposed to be paying walk away, Halliburton, Bechtel and Blackwater can collect over a longer period because this will NEVER END.
Shadowgm Hussein @ 73:
I'm sure most of the msm see through the bullshit they're promoting, and a few like yourself (I hope) do what they can and still manage to stay employed in their industry of choice. A little truth slipped onto the teleprompter on the sly might be a win/win, for instance, and lotsa laughs to boot if you can get some contard to parrot something against their programming and get away with it, lol. Do whatcha can, and stay in the shadows, gm...
;-}
Hulk @ 69:
=================
velkome to the USSA aka the forth riech.
Don't you wish!
They lie, they lied, they are gonna lie again.
Surge is working but our soldiers' lives were lost.
the liberal media blah blah, the awakening council are traitors to the commander in chief blah blah, barak is to left of lenin blah blah, the surge is working blah blah... mushroom clouds and iran.... yawn.... brain washing completed all hail bushie
If this is truly accurate, we will probably see a complete chaotic mess either right before or right after the election and inaugural address in the U.S. Assuming a Democrat becomes president and the chaos takes place after the inauguration, it would only be par for the lame Bush course....screw it all up and then shrug it off.
Like Cheney would say: "So?"
I keep asking, in what has become a nearly universal rhetorical question, "Why is the American media so bad?"
How can you run a video, using a voice and including a definitive statement that declares the voice is that of Osama Bin Laden, when you have virtually no proof?
How dare you promote this government propaganda ploy?
There is no "Osama Bin Laden" - yet you promote him. Why?
I know you think this good information for your readers, and it is for the most part, but I'm very annoyed by the fact that everyone , conservatives and liberals alike, have acquiesced in dropping the "In Iraq" from the name of the group in Iraq we now call "Al Qaeda". Does this not serve the Bush Administration's purpose in conflating the Iraq War with 9/11? We all know that the group we once rightfully distinguished as "All Qaeda in Iraq" is a separate group from the Al Qaeda of 9/11. I know it might feel convenient to use this shorter version as shorthand but it is also very counterproductive. If the anti-war movement adopts the deceitful language of the war criminals are not conceding the point to them?
So please, pretty please with sugar on top, stop it.
The administration has lost it's collective mind entirely if there is one ounce of truth to this. Bush can't even pay his own insurgents. I just fired off another most likely ignored email to the white house.. I signed it as another Concerned Local Citizen.. The sooner these people are dispatched the better off both Nations will be. Some days when I see this bullshit I just want to go completely postal. Please November, even if it's Hillary Clinton, please get here already!
Let me see if I get this right.
Using his limited intellect, Paul Bremer decides to disband the Iraq army.
Then, the insurgency, sectarian violence, and al Qaeda terrorism begin to develop.
Then, the US shells out billions of dollars for the US military in an attempt to keep the peace.
Yet, the insurgency, sectarian violence, and al Qaeda terrorism begin to increase.
Then, the US shells out billions of dollars to contractors like Blackwater to provide security from angry Iraqis,
while the US shells out billions of dollars for the US military in an attempt to keep the peace.
Then, as last ditch effort, the US pays $10 bills to Iraqis to protect themselves.
Then, in some small measure, the insurgency is on hold, sectarian violence is down, and al Qaeda is eliminated where the powerful US military could not succeed.
Yet, the US military is so mis-organized that it can't pay a $28,000 bill due to newly found allies.
WTF
The Guardian: The Surge May Be On The Verge Of Collapse
Viagra for everyone!!!
Ok, not for the other side.
85 sundog
George W(TF) Bush.
83 EP
I haven't.
No. 44 @ 5:
The problem with history's stance on boosh is they sanitize their White House records (look at the thread about their view of the economy), and they control access to presidential records.
Meanwhile the Supremes are telling people trying to sue the NSA and their co-conspirators in the telecom industry to open their records, so they can check what's being said of them, that unless they have some know of damage done them, they have no standing.
They have no standing because of the lack of knowledge they're trying to get the Court's help to receive.
Of course the Bushies do not want us to leave, they will lose all the money their comps invested into Iraq.
If it were only the tax-payers money, we'd be out a long time ago.
This is the crap you hear from people trying to cover their asses.
What should we do? Maybe we should let someone else handle it. Maybe someone who has not constantly farked the Iraqis for the last 30+ years.
We have been keeping them down and now all of a sudden we expect them to walk by themselves?
We are hated there? Really? I wonder why? Maybe because someway or another, when Iraqis were being murdered and tortured and mutilated or starved to death, we were involved in one way or another.
We complain about rampaging gangs of murderers, yet we happily supported them when they were our rampaging gangs of murderers.
No. 44 @ 5:
No, sorry, nothing will happen. No one will dare because they are 'our' guys and we would rather turn a blind eye then to go after them.
Not to mention there would only be a few to do it. You can rest assured that those that try will be branded terrorists and traitors and you will hear cries of 'this will only support the terrorists'.
Even worse when we think about the victims of this atrocity. Most notably the Iraqi forces that were murdered in the invasion.
Absolutely disgusting.
The US is the Roman Empire mk2 and no will dare to change it.
Everyone is just happy to make a living and does not give a flying crap what happens outside of their country.
Donate some money for a good conscience and make sure not to stick your head out to far.
Support the troops, many of which belong to inferior groups then you. Such as poor, minorities or non-citizens.
And worship the Empire and if you are a true patriot, make sure you have more flags then anyone else on your block.
Not to mention those nasty accidents that can happen.
You know like Martin Luther King's lead poisoning.
Martin Luther King sucked on Chinese junk?
"The surge" has basically been a strategy of upping the slaughter, so maybe it's also losing steam because the US is running out of Iraqis to kill.
John Faber @ 40:
Good point. As Colbert pointed out, reality has a well-known liberal bias.
I guess that depends on what your definition of "working" is.
John Faber @ 40:
Pitiful soul, we could have bought Iraq for what this is costing this nation.
So regardless of how you wrap this mess in the flag, fewer and fewer people want to salute.
Unfortunately, countless lives have been lost in this venture. If that doesn't mean anything to you, you've been playing too many video games.
We fucked it up somewhat (including with 2000 civilians dead as "collateral damage" in the initial invasion), and we certainly opened the lid on the Box O' Sectarian Conflicts. But the last I checked, Americans aren't the ones blowing up people in marketplaces every day. I'm not off-base for thinking that Iraqis need to be the primary force in addressing an Iraqi civil war. Don't be a dickhead, 2Loud2bHumble. The way you shriek that the U.S. needs to fix all this, one would think you want us to be in the country for perpetuity. Much like a certain candidate does... Be careful you don't end up on your own McList as "McProud2bHumble" or "McHypocriticalRanter". :P
Abbybwood @ 6:
Yes... our military and political intervention sort of puts that whole "free market" lie to rest, eh?
Assassin @ 95:
Proud2bHumble Hus(in)sein @ 49:
Proud2bHumble Hus(in)sein @ 97:
I didn't "sneak back"; I posted at my leisure. Pardon me for not hovering over this thread as it unfolded. See, I'm not some raving zealot who flies off the handle and posts in all bold. I responded to only one sentence because the rest of your post was too moronic and whiny to address.
I never said "fuck the Iraqis" or anything of the sort; if you heard that, it's a product of having your head up your rectum. What I did say is that they shouldn't have needed financial incentives in the first place to expel al Qaeda from their own country. What I also said is the United States is not the one blowing up marketplaces in the Iraqi civil war, and accordingly, it's not the U.S.'s responsibility to get further ensnared in that civil war.
Here's what Barack Obama had to say on the issue in January 2007: "We're not going to babysit a civil war". So go argue with him about it; I'm sure the Repiglicans will appreciate your efforts.
It's very revealing that you're advocating we stay there indefinitely. You sound a lot like your grandpappy John McCain. Did you inherit his white hair, or did you just develop it from years of cocaine use, McCokehead III?
Do you think you can intimidate me by racebaiting in all bold type like some angry harpy? Please.
This website hack/rag is doing nothing but pushing forth Al-Quieda backed propaganda. Congratualtions Crroks and Liars, a very self descriptive weblog. We soldiers and sailors are doing just fine in the surge.
Whiners! I. Have. No. Time. For. This.
Just got this note from a buddy of mine stationed in Baghdad. A real soldier's opinion of the "surge":
Have a nice day, all you neo-tards who believe the "surge" is "working"...
Assassin @ 14:
Oh God, you're just plain silly. Why don't you get it? What about it don't you get? Jeez Louise. The US led UN put sanctions on this country for 10 years, starved them of everything, including their basic rights after Bush Snr bombed the hell out of them. Then Clinton did it for a while. The US, with the British ran bombing raids on sheep in the north to have fun... blew up houses and farms and roads and trucks and people. They're still blowing up everything they can get their hands on. Saddam Hussein squeezed them all he could, these people are wrung out - a hell of a lot of them have no homes, no families, no money, no arms or legs or whatever the hell they're missing. They stand in the street trying to sell a single cigarette, selling their possessions for a pittance.
What on earth is it that you don't get about it?
So you don't believe that it's in Iraqis' self-interest to get rid of al Qaeda? They should let al Qaeda run rampant in their country -- unless they're paid to stop them? Anything the US and the British have done doesn't change the fact that terrorists such as al Qaeda prey upon Iraqi civilians. Why Iraqis would need added incentive to oppose the terrorist groups who are continually killing them is beyond me. Basic self-preservation indicates they should already have plenty of motivation. Maybe I'm daft. Or maybe I'm just cursed with a little something called "common sense".
And what do US/UN sanctions have to do with the current Iraqi civil war? That's an awfully tenuous connection. Here I thought the conflict is tied to religious zealotry, and now you're telling me it's some delayed reaction to sanctions? Sanctions? Hot dang; guess I need to brush up on Revisionist History.
Americans are partially guilty because they supported one or the other side who were doing the blowing-up.
Saddam's murderous thugs did not stop us from being friend with him for a long time.
If you stand by and watch someone get killed, your guilt can be discussed.
But if you actively support someone you KNOW is killing people, you are just as guilty.
Like the rules about aiding and abetting someone.
We would hold any person responsible for doing such with criminals and terrorists.
Well except if they are our Government or our Troops.
Assassin @ 98:
Good point, but if you wear a stovepipe hat, probably nobody'll notice, hehe.
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Not in so few words. I agree that something smells shitty here, but it's your ignorant xenophobia, and has nothing to do with any unusual flexibility on my part. Chimpster's minions disbanded the Iraqis' pre-existing security forces, destroyed their economy and infrastructure and BushCheneyco is stealing all their oil. How are they supposed to live and, to quote your clueless leader, "put food on their families"? So who's the moron again?
(let me guess - 'blah blah blah moronic blah blah whiny blah blah')
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No, we just ripped open their country on false pretenses, stripped away the security barriers keeping them away from each other's throats, left a bunch of explosives and weapons all over the place and opened the door for outside provocateurs like Al Qaida to stir things up. It's like if I saw that ugly growth on top of your torso, so I thought I'd do us both a favor and just rip it off and rifle through you're wallet to compensate myself for my efforts and kept your credit cards to pay for my gas until they hit their limit. In the meantime, a few passersby have noticed you're bleeding all over the place, so I take you to the emergency room and promise to pay for your treatment and meds, then skip on the bill so you run out of meds and continue to slowly die of open wound infections - you're right, not our responsibility at all, really.
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Here's what he didn't say and you did, "It's not our responsibility to do everything we can to prevent further loss of life, maiming and destruction in Iraq just because we might have maybe sorta had a minor hand in completely fucking up their country." I'm sure the other contardianfucknuts appreciate your efforts to conflate the catastrophe we initiated into 'it's all their fault, let them fix it'.
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Weeeaaak... Nowhere in my arguments have I suggested we stay there indefinitely... You did, @95, "The way you shriek that the U.S. needs to fix all this, one would think you want us to be in the country for perpetuity." What I did say was that the way you advocate shirking responsibility for this is wrong and xenophobic.
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McYourFakeHero is not closely related to me, though he is, ostensibly, human. You have no way of knowing if I even have hair. I've snorted coke twice in my life, both times approximately 20 years ago, and have not used it in any other form. Ad hominems are the last refuge of ignorant irrationality, and an obvious marker of contardianfuckedupidness, which is how you got this started. It's difficult to believe a progressive would parrot contard talking points. I have a policy against conflict with fellow progressives, and if you are one, I regret that this has gone this far, but you're not doing yourself (as a human being, if not a progressive) or our movement any favors with comments like yours.
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I have no desire to intimidate anyone. Xenophobia and racism are two facets of the same flawed dualistic perception/conception of existence. I do not play any musical instruments, not that that has anything to do with this...hehe. If your ego will not allow you to admit your errors here (and mine does not require that you do so), at least let our conversation influence the underlying messages of any future comments you may choose to make here, and perhaps we can forge a friendship in said future.
You're welcome.
;-}
Which would explain why your first message addressed to me contained multiple ad hominems, even though my first post in this thread contained zero ad hominems. Practice what you preach, McPious.
I never said that, either. Your false attribution of words shows how desperate you are, McStrawGrasper.
Uh, the contard talking points are trying to rationalize why US troops should stay (e.g. "we must achieve victory! they'll follow us home by clinging to boat rudders! avoid 9/11 the sequel! victory! football! perception of weakness! dick-measuring contest with Osama bin Laden! victory! etc!"). I'm saying why they should leave. Big difference there, kiddo.
You certainly implied so in your latest post. You said that it's "our responsibility to do everything we can to prevent further loss of life, maiming and destruction in Iraq just because we might have maybe sorta had a minor hand in completely fucking up their country."
Unfortunately, "everything we can" would entail staying there to further babysit their civil war. Do tell us why you disagree with Senator Obama, and believe US troops should babysit that conflict indefinitely -- incurring more casualties in the process.
The way you advocate that Iraqis shirk responsibility for ending their own civil war is coddling, patronizing, clueless, and ultimately results in more fatalities for the people you purport to be helping. Civilians who continue to stand on the sidelines waiting for "responsible parties" to fix things are in no way immune to insurgent bomb blasts; thus, your coddling is really apathy and nihilism disguised as prudence and concern. Furthermore, it puts the unprincipled opportunists who wouldn't fight al Qaeda without a paycheck on a pedestal, and it keeps US troops in the line of fire.
Also, I noticed that you said "hehe" in response to your own comments thrice. Do you always laugh at your own unfunny words, or is that a withdrawal symptom?
Shame it hasn't exited your system by now.
We may've stripped those barriers away, but that didn't necessitate that they go at each other's throats. They very well could have lived civillly side-by-side, yet a number of them chose not to. You ignore that fact; do you not believe in personal responsibility or free will? By deeming Iraqis incapable of free will, you diminish them and wear YOUR xenophobia on your sleeve.
And I'm sure your fellow bleeding heart revisionist historians appreciate your efforts to conflate *initiating* the catastrophe with carrying out the daily bombings. In the mind of you revisionists, "Hey, US troops invaded, and that's morally equivalent to donning the thousands of suicide vests and delivering the thousands of car bombs."
Strange. You and contards share a talking point: thinking that people who aren't Iraqis can somehow solve a conflict which is inherently _between_ Iraqis. I'd love to see this foolish logic applied to American history: "The North and South were embroiled in a violent civil war. At times, it seemed like the South would win. The tide eventually turned toward the North. But then, Greece swooped in and won the war for themselves. The stunned North and South were forced to reconcile, as they stood in awe of how Greece won the American Civil War. Truly an upset for the ages!"
America can not win the Iraqi Civil War any more than Greece (or any other country besides America) could have won the American Civil War. But keep dreaming.
Assassin @ 105:
Ad hominems are the last refuge of ignorant irrationality, and an obvious marker of contardianfuckedupidness
There's a difference between satirically accurate descriptions of a libertard and ad hominems, my son...hehe.
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Here’s what he didn’t say and you did, “It’s not our responsibility to do everything we can to prevent further loss of life, maiming and destruction in Iraq just because we might have maybe sorta had a minor hand in completely fucking up their country.”
So now you're saying that it is our responsibility to help clean up the mess we started? The underlying intent of your mealy-mouthed implications @14 were enough to warrant further clarification for the less sophisticated.
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It’s difficult to believe a progressive would parrot contard talking points.
I stand corrected. I admit to confusing libertards for contards at times, since libertards often won't initially identify themselves as such (kinda the Amway of regressitardianism, hehe), but to me you're all in the 'regressive me/mine/my' tard pile and any subcategorizing is largely irrelevant other than to recognize that the devolved self-centeredness of the libertards sets them higher than the average regressive on the sociopath scale. I agree that we should leave under a plan that limits further tragedy as much as possible. I disagree with your 'it's their problem, let them fix it' attitude so typical of egocentric libertard sociopaths, my child.
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Weeeaaak… Nowhere in my arguments have I suggested we stay there indefinitely…
You're confusing what I 'implied' with what you inferred. Don't feel bad - it's virtually impossible for sociopaths to empathize with the suffering of others, or truly understand anyone else's viewpoint, and there is growing evidence that there's a strong recessive gene component to your condition. Couple that with some Randianish programming and you get libertardianism in all it's inglory. You're right, in a way; it's really not your fault.
As I've clearly stated, I don't disagree with Barrack's aversion to the current half-assed occupation. It's not surprising that your sociopath cult leader RuPaul can't come up with a plan that's not basically 'fuck 'em, they're on their own', either. There are other ideas around that may address the more fundamental issues Iraq had before we took our giant shit on them, such as Biden's, for one.
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What I did say was that the way you advocate shirking responsibility for this is wrong and xenophobic.
Typical libertardian me/my/mine Randian-rugged-individualist speak. I read Rand's individualist crap when I was 12. I got over it - when will you?
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I'm not laughing with me Assassinine, I'm laughing at you, hehe...see? If it bothers you, I'll not stop, hehe.
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I’ve snorted coke twice in my life, both times approximately 20 years ago, and have not used it in any other form.
Good one, hehe.
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No, we just ripped open their country on false pretenses, stripped away the security barriers keeping them away from each other’s throats,
We did strip those barriers away, and Cheney himself predicted what would happen back in the early 90's, so there's really no excusing us on that one, no matter how much you persist in attempting to shirk our responsibility and thus your personal tax burdens... blah blah blah...more libertardian speak coupled with an attempt to conflate humane concern for the suffering of others with my somehow being xenophobic, lol and hehe.
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I’m sure the other contardianfucknuts appreciate your efforts to conflate the catastrophe we initiated into ‘it’s all their fault, let them fix it’.
Blah blah libertardian catchphrases blah blah, lol hehe.
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It’s difficult to believe a progressive would parrot contard talking points.
Once again, technically my mistake in not specifically identifying the Amway libertard sociopath subspecies of the regressitard devolution. Pretty clunky Greek-style metaphor you must have brought out of the closet with you, though - lol, hehe.
Pretty much covered that, and wishing you sweet somnolescent adventures as well, thanks!
Pwn3d!!! LOL
There's no point in quoting each other anymore, because it just stretches out our messages, and we're the only ones posting in this thread. :P
I'll address your garbage point-by-point for brevity:
1) I'm no libertarian, and no Randian. For instance, I'll be the first to say that Jonathan Hoenig is an annoying little Howdy Doody monkey.
2) My "personal tax burdens"? You're mistaken on two counts here. One, I'm too poor to pay any taxes; that'll show the man! Two, I actually have no problem with us pumping money into Iraq in an effort to stabilize it. I'd much sooner do that than have more soldiers die. I don't even have a fiduciary problem with us paying off insurgents to fight terrorists; I just think the fact that they need payment to oppose al Qaeda shows a complete lack of principle. You obviously disagree, though, since you've come rushing to their defense repeatedly. Clearly, you think insurgents possess great principle and honor, which is why you would undoubtedly bury your head in their laps if you had the chance.
3) The Greek -- American Civil War analogy was spot on. Greece could never have won the U.S. Civil War, yet you somehow think the U.S. can win the Iraqi Civil War. You need to look up "civil war" in the dictionary sometime to understand how foolish that is. Clearly, you're suffering a break from reality -- perhaps brought on by your chemical accomplices? You could be a character from a Hunter S. Thompson work, though they're more coherent.
4) You talk of my supposed callousness and sociopathic tendencies, yet you unflinchingly assert that the burden for disposing of al Qaeda and ending another country's civil war should fall squarely on the shoulders of U.S. soldiers. Haven't they sacrificed enough already? Your contempt for their civilian commanders has rendered you oblivious to their efforts and their hardships. Grow a heart, McPious.
Fair Enough. You say you're not a libertart and imply that you're not a contard. I'll take your word for the time being, and that puts us most likely somewhere on the same side of the progressive/regressitard fence, so I'll be the first to turn off the 'insult generator', since I was the first to use it, and eat your 'garbage'.
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1) Glad to hear it, hope it's true, can't blame me too much for drawing those conclusions when you come on with 'their problem, they can fix it'.
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2) Agree completely re $ v. soldiers as a tactic. Disagree completely with the 'unprincipled insurgents’ brush you paint them all with. You keep going back to ignoble motivation as your 'principle' argument. More practical and immediate problems that bushco created confront the Iraqis, which I have covered fairly thoroughly to this point i.e. infrastructure and economy, and that you have yet to acknowledge. To expect principle to trump survival is somewhat unrealistic, don't you think? Under the conditions we created there, they really do need payment. If I broke into your house and diverted your propane lines to my house, left all the doors off the hinges, and did the same to your next door neighbors (whom you despise because they go to a different church and their grandpa killed your uncle for killing his nephew who raped grandpa's favorite niece etc. etc.), at the very least you'd expect me to pay for the damages. To suggest that my expectations of reparations so that you could at least put your doors back on was unprincipled would be very unprincipled of me, don't you think? You might even consider it my way of saying a big 'fuck you, yer on your own'. You are obviously quite intelligent, so if you are a free thinking non-tard, why do you parrot the 'insurgent's are automatically bad' meme? This and another post where you argued very sarcastically against Mexican illegals tripped my xenophobe alarm, and I find it highly unusual to find someone of your intelligence to be xenophobic and not a regressitard, since xenophobia and progressivism are mutually exclusive.
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3) The Greek analogy would have been spot on if:
......• you had begun with the Greeks invading us
......• destroying our infrastructure and economy
......• stealing our cotton, tobacco and food crops because they did not have enough of their own, and were .............reliant on ours
......• left plenty of weapons and ammunition (much of which they sold to us) all over the place
......• did it all with an army barely big enough to guard some of the crops and factories.
In which case, if the Greeks were to just pull out, the Spanish to the south and French Canadians to the north, who hated each other(if your analogy were to fit current reality), would quickly become involved in direct full-scale warfare, further severely restricting the goods the Greeks sought to steal in the first place. So the Greeks have basically done what they are infamous for - fucking themselves in the ass - and getting stuck like a hermaphroditic dog in the process. You are correct that we cannot win a civil war in Iraq, and (again) I never said that we could. Nor (again) did I ever say that we should stay in an untenable occupation, either. You keep inferring that I did, though.
4) Nowhere did I assert that the burden of disposing of al Qaeda (in Iraq) and ending their civil war should fall squarely on our brave, dedicated, misused and abused military service men and women, many of whom have been close friends and roommates of mine at various times in my life. I asserted the exact opposite when I countered your 'why should we pay Iraqis to do what they should be doing anyway' xenophobic rhetoric. Perhaps the areas where we are legitimately misunderstanding one another lie in my (up to this point) neglecting to express my equally deep concern and grief re our service people, and your - up to this point (here's your chance to rise above this being just a pissing contest - props to your volume and distance abilities btw) - neglecting to acknowledge the human cost to the Iraqis, which is what bothers me the most about your arguments, and keeps on ringing my xenophobe/regressitard alarm.
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This whole dialectic exercise is amusingly reminiscent of Colbert's 'Formidable Opponent' bits. Your McStrawGrasper, et al were quite funny, and I always appreciate a good laugh. As I stated @104, perhaps we can forge a friendship, but I do not count any xenophobes among my friends...ball's in your court.
2) ...To suggest that your expectations of reparations...
OCD kicking in now...hehe
;-}
The estimated 80,000 'Awakening' fighters, those that formerly (and may soon do so again) shot at and killed and maimed our own troops, (whom of course the Bush regime supposedly always 'supports') would be akin to the U.S. arming 8 divisons of Viet Cong to do the same thing. Most Americans are pathetically caught up in their own mundane existences, and are still sadly not able to make the vital connection that the dual losing Bush wars in both Afghanistan and in Iraq ARE THE DIRECT CAUSE OF OUR ECONOMY GOING DOWN THE WASTE PIPE ! Pump priming wars, do nothing to put bread and butter on anyone;s table, save those moneyed corporate ones from The Military Industrial Complex. Much more must be done by more of us, to force the MSM to cover this and other vital stories, in order that our populace become more educated.
1) I can't say *all* insurgents are bad, but the ones carrying out the attacks reported on the news are, imho. There seems to be an impulse among some leftwingers to say that the insurgents are just "fierce nationalists" combatting outside invaders. I'm sorry, but nationalists don't make a hobby of blowing up one's countrymen (and women, and children) at marketplaces. Alternately, one can take a different approach and contend that insurgents have no obligation to nationalism because Iraq as a "nation" is just an artificial construct -- in that case, isn't it still pretty shitty to be blowing up one's neighbors?
On top of being brutal, unnationalistic (is that even a word? eh, i'll type it anyway), and unneighbourly, I think the insurgents aren't very bright. In 2005, a vocal chunk of Sunnis brilliantly decided to boycott the elections. Then within months after the elections, some of these Sunnis started blowing up innocent people because they were angry that their elected government didn't represent them. Think about how very stupid that is. Logic clearly wasn't their forte.
2) Here's the thread to which you refer:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/01/13/now-on-pbs-the-latino-vote/
Re-read my posts and tell me which ones, if any, are xenophobic. When somebody asked why we don't hear much about non-Latino illegal immigrants, I explained that the oceans are natural barriers, so people from other regions can't readily sneak into the U.S. in large quantities. I thought that was obvious, a matter of common sense and simple geography, but one of the posters decided to get his undies in a knot over it and climb his high horse. Then he fumingly typed paragraph after paragraph of irrelevant nonsense. Accordingly, myself and another poster mocked his grandstanding. Re-read the whole thread for full appreciation of this.
3) You're right. The analogy wasn't "spot on" because several key components were different. But you got what I was driving at, so it's all good.
4) I'm sorry if I glossed over any suffering the Iraqis have experienced, and did not mean to suggest they haven't experienced plenty. But to address one of your questions:
I don't think principle and survival are necessarily opposing ideas here. As I've said in prior posts in this thread, I believe any Iraqi has a pressing self-interest to resist and expunge al Qaeda. They ignore al Qaeda at their own peril because this group isn't willing to live harmoniously alongside anybody in a(n attempted) democracy; they'll eventually bomb these civilians and/or their places of worship. So yes, I was very puzzled that people would need financial motivation to oppose a group that wants to kill them. I'm not bothered by my (tiny) tax dollars being used to fund the Awakening, and I understand that they need material support to effectively combat al Qaeda. Hopefully, they won't turn on us.
Keep checking back, Assassin. I'm putting together something I hope you'll like, but I'm dealing with a lot of interruptions at my end...
;-}
Haha; hurry up. This thread is getting close to auto-locking.
Assassin @ 113:
LOL
If that should actually happen, click on my moniker and we'll continue at my place. Just to give you some idea what I'm working on, I finally put the horse back in front of the cart and did a proper due diligence advanced google search on all of your comments here that I could find and read every one...
While I can still technically assert that your comment here @14 when taken as a stand-alone supports my enthusiastic attack, every single one of your other comments supports my current project: preparing a gourmet feast ala Corvus in the family Corvidae for my own personal consumption and your mollifying enjoyment...hehe ;-}
You frighten me, man. :P If you're going for comprehensive here, don't forget my comments from the Haloscan days:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=assassin+site%3Ahaloscan.com+crooks
Most of those matches are just the common noun and aren't me, but there're a few posts I'm proud of.
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