Why does Stephen Hadley focus on <i>the Nepal</i> instead of Tibet in the Olympics controversy?
By John Amato Saturday Apr 12, 2008 3:30pm
Am I missing something here? What's up with Bush's National Security Advisor? Does he not want to say Tibet or Monks or rioting in Tibet when responding to the human rights violations that are going on? I know China owns us and all. I'm not an expert on this, so please fill me in too...
Hadley: The president is going to the Olympics. What he’s doing on Nepal is what we think the international community ought to be doing, which is approaching the Chinese privately through diplomatic channels and sending a very firm message of concern for human rights, a concern for what’s happening in Nepal, urging the Chinese government to understand that it is in their interest to reach out to representatives of the Dalai Lama, and to show, while the whole world is watching China, that they are determined to treat their citizens with dignity and respect.
Nepal did just hold their first elections, so maybe it's on Hadley's mind, but the representatives of the Dalai Lama would be in Tibet. Is it too much to expect the National Security Adviser to keep that straight?
And if there is a good reason, please post it in the comment section. Read/Watch this and step into Bizarroland: via ABC's This Week:
Download | play 
Download | play (h/t bill w)
Full transcript below the fold.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Does that mean he’ll attend the opening ceremonies, or not?
HADLEY: What the president said is that he will go to the Olympics. He wants to support our Olympic athletes, the wonderful men and women who are going to participate.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So that means he’ll go to see events, but he won’t go to the opening ceremony?
HADLEY: The president has said he’s going to the Olympics.
I think this whole issue...
STEPHANOPOULOS: How come he -- how come you don’t want to answer the question?
HADLEY: The whole issue of opening ceremonies is a non-issue. I think it is a way of dodging what really needs to happen if you’re concerned about the Nepal...
STEPHANOPOULOS: Does that mean the president will be going to them?
HADLEY: The president is going to the Olympics. The president is going to -- to think that the way to deal with the issue of Nepal is not by some -- a statement that you’re not going to the opening ceremonies and say, therefore, I checked the Nepal box...
STEPHANOPOULOS: But he may not go to the opening ceremonies. You just don’t want to say it.
HADLEY: No. The president is going to the Olympics. What he’s doing on Nepal is what we think the international community ought to be doing, which is approaching the Chinese privately through diplomatic channels and sending a very firm message of concern for human rights, a concern for what’s happening in Nepal, urging the Chinese government to understand that it is in their interest to reach out to representatives of the Dalai Lama, and to show, while the whole world is watching China, that they are determined to treat their citizens with dignity and respect.
There is an opportunity here. And if countries are really concerned about Nepal, we shouldn’t have this sort of non-issue of opening ceremonies or not. They should do the hard work of quiet diplomacy to urge the Chinese government -- in their interest -- to take advantage of this opportunity to do something about...
STEPHANOPOULOS: But...
HADLEY: ... meeting the concerns about people in Nepal.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But you call it a non-issue, yet you won’t say clearly that the president is attending the opening ceremonies. And I’m just trying to figure out why.
HADLEY: The president, at this point, is going to the Olympics. We haven’t worked out the details of his schedule at this point in time.
But from his vantage point, if you listen to what he has said, he has no reason not to go. Because what he has said is, we need to be using diplomacy to try and deal with the issue of Nepal.
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His representatives are in Nepal. And India. Not in Tibet. That's why Hadley is talking about Nepal.
What the hell is Hadley talking about?
well, at least he didn't say "Nipple"
Well, it was a slip of the tongue. Anyone can mistake Tibet for Nepal one or two or eight times in a conversation. I do it all the time. The plate in my head makes it hard for me to say "Tibet." Perhaps Hadley has a similar plate in his head.
Nepalling!
Hadley is a professional, that's why he holds the position he does.
If he says Nepal enough times we will forget about Tibet. Spin, spin, spin, spin....
Tibet: The Lord Voldemort of international geography.
Gads. Thanks Stevie. You've given me yet another thing to be embarrassed about over dinner with our European friends. And I'm already apologizing for my country before the salad course!
And why doesn't Stephanopoulos correct him? Is he equally uninformed?
I guess the fact that Georgie wants to go to the Olympics is much more important then any of the human suffering going on in Tibet. He is such a psychopath....
Bush has made us weak. He has us firmly under China's thumb. We can can't speak out against China or their human rights abuses lest they call our debt and collapse our economy....not that we have any room to talk by lecturing other nations about human rights abuse after the death, carnage and torture Bush has caused.
Thanks again Chimp!
Apparently Stephenopoulas doesn't know the difference either. I guess they both just figured it was close enough for government work. Nepal, Tibet, Iraq, Iran,Sunni, Shia, what the hell's the difference???
Still, he's probably one of the few American who could find Nepal (or Tibet) on a world map.
"Why does Stephen Hadley focus on the Nepal instead of Tibet in the Olympics controversy?"
Because Hadley's an even bigger idiot than Bush?
I'm convinced that whenever the Chimperor is allowed to make staffing choices all by himself, he invariably picks people who are dumber, more psychotic, less qualified and more corrupt than he( that's quite a trick). He obviously subscribes to the management/leadership philosophy borrowed from corporate Amerika that "It's easy to make yourself look pretty if you surround yourself with gorillas". Of course he's too dim-wiited and dishonest to realize that such choices make him look even uglier than he already is.
14All @ 10:
Yeah that. Or he doesnt want to embarras him
Send a good article to the comment section that explains Hadleuy's position and I'll update the post...
CNN has an article about this conversation online. However, the quoted quotes aren't exact and they've, very politely, corrected him and included 'Tibet' where they think he meant to say it. Is it a journalists job to help these guys be manufacturing quotes for what they think they meant to say?
In their conversation, Bush "raised the issue of human rights, he raised the issue of what's going on in Tibet and he sent a very clear message that he believes it's in the interest of Chinese authorities for them to meet with representatives of the Dalai Lama," Hadley said.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/13/us.olympics.ap/index.html
Nepal - Tibet
Sunni - Shiite
al Qaeda - Iran
Who needs facts?
Ignorance is Strength!
We've always been at war with
EurasiaEastasia.It wouldn't have taken but a second for Stephanopoulos after Hadley's first gaffe to interrupt and say: "You mean Tibet, right?" And Hadley would've been like, "D'OH! Yeah Tibet." But for whatever reason it just went on. If the quality of such shows is this good then well we're screwed.
The way he keeps repeating "Nepal, Nepal, Nepal" kind of reminds me of the old "Ellen" show when they kept saying "Lebanese" over and over.
That is what they refer to in the con-man industry as the ol' shuck 'n jive.
.
N O T I C E:
Snuffleupagus doesn’t correct Stephen Hardley.
.
Alice Hussein @ 19:
B I N G O!
.
Hadley was obviously misspeaking, since he was talking about the Dalai Lama and Nepal. It wouldn't surprise me though if this administration was far more concerned about Nepal becoming a Maoist state than Tibet who China has had stranglehold of for years. And we already know they don't care about human rights violations. Now that Nepal is Maoist, they are on the doorstep to India. It's that old domino theory again.
Max-Hussein-1 @ 23:
Or did they BOTH share a McMoment of McSpeak?
.
I was listening to NPR a few days ago and apparently China made a deal that in order to get the Olympics they would have to deal measurably to improve their human rights record with Tibet as well as within their own country.
Obviously they are saying "Chuck You Farley!" to the world considering how they're been dealing with Tibet and also by the fact that they recently imprisoned a political dissident for three years.
Yet I hear no one in the MSM discussing this "deal" they made. I have a feeling this is the reason Hillary Clinton and others are calling for a boycott of the opening ceremonies.
This is the question that they should be asking in my opinion. "What is the deal China made with the Olympic Committee to get the games, how have they complied or not complied with that deal?
Moose @ 25:
The Taliban may be stuck in the middle ages, but Bush and his junta are stuck in the 19th century. Quick, let's contain communism and invade Nepal [/snark].
This is totally off topic, but, has anyone noticed how in both Pakistan and Zimbabwe the leaders (Mugabe & Musharraf) are unwilling to step down despite being voted out in democratic elections? I wonder if Bush is taking notes.
Prachanda wins, Red star rises over Nepal
" The Maoists' rise will not make the US comfortable either, but given the fact that the elections have been declared fair by a whole host of international observers, they cannot possibly disown them either." - Times of India
Just another Loyal Bushie lying asshole figuring all of us to be stupid like W.s 20% base following.
Andy @ 18:
I don't expect much from CNN anymore. I just subjected myself to 15 minutes of their "Ballot Bowl" (because us Americans won't watch anything unless it is disguised as sport) and found their feature tonight is "The Compassion Forum", where Hils and Obama are going to discuss their faith, religion and it's PLACE IN POLITICS???!!!
My head just exploded. Religion has no place in politics, period. And I say that as a (fundamentalist) Christian. I don't want to hear candidates talk about their faith - I want to hear my pastor talk about faith.
And why are they not including McCain? Or is it only the Dems that have to explain their religion? And why is this more important than Bush admitting to sanctioning torture?
justabill @ 31:
Like a poster on that blog noted, it could be an attempt to discredit Carter. Why? My assumption is because Carter is willing to sit and talk with Hamas, a democratically elected government I might add.
Stephanopoulos is a supreme brown-noser. He's trying to do a Russert, trying desperately to get a "gotcha" moment on the demand for an answer. He's not listening to a word Hadley is uttering. He just wants the answer!! If he'd been listening, he had his "gotcha" moment, but then he'd embarrass the stupid guest, who, by obfuscating, makes Georgie look like a moron, which, or course, he really is.
Andy @ 18:
Actually, it looks like CNN was quoting Hadley from his FNS interview which was taped before the This Week appearance (probably before the memory pills he borrowed from Sen Pat Roberts wore off).
14All @ 10:
Please, these guys aren't stupid, we are. They rehearse this before the show starts. Govt. guest or syncophant (fill in the blank) goes on talk show (fill in blank) and gets softball questions or total non-follow-ups from host (fill in blank) who is paid by defense-contractor owned network to make sure the public is kept stupid and complacent. And the ones who notice this keep thinking they're not doing their jobs. Amazing .
I have an idea: every time a Bush administration official "explains" to us how the world works, let's have a monkey throw a dart at a map of the world and a list of verbs and nouns and see who has the more cogent analysis.
Steph reminds me of the DJ in "Wayne's World", played by Harry Shearer, who, while his guest is talking, shuffles his papers and plays with his equipment, saying "Yup. Uh huh." while ignoring what they are actually saying.
Why do murkins feel entitled to diss China about Tibet while we beat Iraq to a bloody pulp? Sounds kind of hypocritical to me.
OK, not kind of... Very.
We are being ruled by a governing body of idiots. After all, look at the decider...and then you honestly won't expect much more.
Bitter, bitter, bitter, bitter, bitter.
Oh yeah. BITTER!!
Propagandists. And bad ones at that. I have more respect for REAL prostitutes. At least they are up front about the business they are in.
Abbybwood @ 27:
Last week I read that IOC pres. Joques Rogge came out and referenced the agreement by China to the IOC to criticize China. The first time anyone from the Olympic Committee has said something critical of China. Surprising too. I wouldn't have expected it, myself. But, as you have written in your post, it didn't get the justified news play it deserved.
Just FYI, this is hardly the first elections held in Nepal as you suggest. Nepal's first elections were held in 1959, although then King Mahendra carried out Nepal's first "royal coup" and dissolved the elected government in 1961 or '62. Democracy was first restored in the early 1990s.
Tibet is next to Nepal, but Tibet is not Nepal. I wonder if HADLEY knows the difference between Canada and USA. How are our government officals so stupid?
Mmm...
A Bush administration 'official' doesn't know his arse from a hole in the ground?
Who'd a thunk?
The clip mysteriously disappeared, was big brother watching? Ah Oh. And I guess he somehow corrected it on Fox,,of course. These guys don't even know what they are talking about. They miss a word in the script and keep right on going.
Because Neocon school never taught Hadley how to read a map.
Isn't it comforting to know that when the folks who don't know their Nepalis from their Tibetans exit the stage, there's a good chance the next buffoons on the scene won't know their Sunnis from their Shi'ites.
America, do you hear that gurgling sound? That's the last of your international reputation going down the drain.
JasonS @ 37:
The monkey of course.
Dave @ 43:
This shouldn't be too surprising. The government is already full of people who can't tell Slovakia from Slovenia.
Five times in that clip Hadley says "...the President is going to the Olympics..." like a wound-up ventriloquist's dummy run amok. Nepal, Tibet, China - who cares? Dubya's going to the Olympics! Gee, maybe the Olympics should consider a 'Catapult the Propaganda' event - Bush being the catapultee.
justabill @ 31:
Then it must be the Ambien talking. You know we're all on it up here.
To the Bushites, it doesn't matter what country (full of little brown people we don't care about) is being crushed by the Chinese.
What about the Uighurs? Tibetans are suffering, but Uighurs have no spokesman, and hence are free to be crushed by the Chinese. I wish people would remember China's trying to ethnocide two minorities, not just one.
That said, this dude is just your average American that thinks he uses Bhutan in his car engine.
As I posted elsewhere on another board regarding this same topic...
if people want to wonder why our reputation around the world is in the tank, it’s people like this who are at least part of the reason why -- a fairly high-ranking member of our government who to all appearances has such serious problems with memory loss and/or short attention span that he can’t even remember something as basic as which country has been the focus of all the recent protests covered in the news media and (as if that weren't bad enough) apparently can’t even be bothered to have someone prepare him a crib sheet so that he can brush up on his facts right before he goes on national television so that he doesn't embarrass our country by making himself look like a total ignoramus.
Then again, I suppose that I should hardly be surprised…it seems probable that what we have here is yet another Bush administration crony who was hired almost entirely on the basis of who he knows instead of what he knows. Ye gods…if the vast majority of the people within the Bush administration are as slow on the uptake as this clown, is it any wonder that our country has been steadily going to hell in a handbasket over the last six-odd years?!?
If you want more of the same vote McCain! Incompetent!
Hadley is a professional diplomat (hopefully) and should know the difference between Nepal and Tibet. However, he is representative of this entire administration, ineffective, incompetent and incorrigible.
Nepal? Hmmm seems to be a theme here. Human rights violations in Tibet, were concerned about Nepal. War in Iraq, were concerned about Iran.
Of course there IS a good reason John!! Hadley doesn't have a clue. Remember this IS the bush administration.
It would be very possible someone like Hadley was purposely avoiding mentioning "Tibet" and the Dalai Lama and speaking instead of the "Nepal" situation instead. But there is no Nepal situation. Nepal is the exiled home of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan community in exile. It seems very unusual, strange even, to leave the word Tibet out, and I would have been the first to cite Hadley for it. But he mentions the Dalai Lama - A phrase that would probably be more taboo than the name of the nation if he were taking care not to offend his Chinese masters - so I think he just made a mistake.
Tibet and human rights abuses there are about 99% off the grid in the US political discourse. And Tibet is a dirty word. Were it not for political uprisings and the Olympics it never would have been close to Hadley's tongue in the first place. Generations of presidents have been able to work thru 4 and 8 year terms barely mentioning this part of the world. Yes, it's outrageous that Steph didn't know to ask for clarification but we can blame ourselves. This issue has long been a major one among the "dirty hippie" crowd Democrats revile so much. Hadley and Stephanopolis barely know the difference between Nepal and Tibet. They know it as well as they need to because nobody in our world knows anything about it or presses them on it. Around all the big blogs I've seen a general lack of knowledge and interest in this issue.
Why should we care.. it's only been going on since the 50s. The coming Dem president will be able to ignore it too.
But at least we are cracking down on those dreadful Commies in Cuba, right?
There is a situation in Nepal. A communist insurgency of sorts. But I think he just mispoke here. Unless the US is so terrified of the Chinese that they can't even mention Tibet.
Why would Hadley make the same silly mistake five times? And, why would George fail to correct him? Those are two difficult questions to answer, without being 'on the inside'.
Let us face it, Tibet has been a front page story for more than a week. It has potential impact on US/China relations and the Olympic games. Domestically, the Free Tibet movement has gained new momentum. The National Security Advisor must have been briefed, and written numerous position pieces during this timeframe. In fact, the Dalai Lama spoke to well-over 20,000 people just two days ago in my home town (Seattle). You could ask just about anyone on the streets in Seattle and ask them about Tibet, and they could provide a fairly informed answer about the issues. Yet, Hadley and George, cannot? I do not buy that, at least not easily. George could have corrected him, especially when it looked like he was not do so himself. He would not have to embarrass Hadley, just ask a question and insert Tibet for Nepal.
OK, everybody agrees Hadley is an idiot. As NSA Director he has been briefed extensively on Tibet for months, if not years. No excuse for his repeatedly mistaking the name of a country this important.
What about Stephanopoulos? Why didn't he correct the error?? Is he as ignorant as Hadley?
Whatever happened to the watchdog press?
Joe @ 59:
No, Nepal is not the home of the Dalai Lama and the exiled Tibetan government. The Dalai Lama and his court have lived in Dharamsala, India since 1960.
Tibet and Nepal are quite distinct culturally. 80% of Nepalis are Hindu, while the vast majority of Tibetans are Tibetan Buddhist.
Annoyed Canuck:
Exactly. Hadley has always been at the core of the Rice clique, and his cluelessness explains their phenomenal inability to do anything positive. You're right about Nepal, and it is obvious he is talking out of the wrong orifice. Nepal is not where the riots were, and it is not part of China. It is not a Nepali issue, no matter that there are Tibetan Buddhists in Kathmandu. There are Tibetan Buddhists in New York, but that doesn't make this a New York issue!
It's very disconcerting that a country that I've known the location of since I was in f___ing GRADE SCHOOL is apparently a mystery to the National Security Advisor. Do Bush advisors have to pass a special "Ignorance Screening Test" or something before they get hired? Or does Bush's idiocy just rub off on close contact?
Was anyone surprised?? I don't think so. He is a Bushie. The test for becoming a Bushie and automatically finding yourself in his employ is to sit in front of two pictures. One is a picture of a hole in the ground. The other is a picture of an ass. Then they say point to the picture of the ass. If he(Hadley in this case) points to the picture of the hole in the ground he gets the job. If he does it with poise, quickness and authority he becomes a close Bush advisor. Don't believe me? Just look at the last seven years can there be any doubt? I have looked tirelessly and have yet to find one, just one Bushie who knows his ass from a hole in the ground. The very worst part is that he was elected, screwed up royally, then he was re-elected. What is that saying about getting the government you deserve?
Nepal is where all the photographs you have seen in the Western media of soldiers and police beating up on Tibetans have come from. (Except for NYC and India, some there, too.)
Tibet is where Tibetan rioters burned and stabbed to death about 16 people, mostly Han Chinese (at least one Tibetan shop girl working in a Chinese shop) on March 14 - the only confirmed deaths from Tibetan/Chinese tension, so far. I was there.
America is where The Pope and His Holiness the Dalai Lama (both theocratic despots) are currently being sucked up to by liberals and conservatives, to varying degrees. I am there now, and pretty disgusted.
I thought we got rid of the monarchical, dictatorship, theocratic rule stuff a couple of hundred years ago? I don't care how charismatic they are, they think they speak for god or are a living god, and that's total weirdness.
It was not Nepal's *first* democratic elections, but the first since the end of the civil war. That's an important distinction and I hope that Amato will correct it.
Dalai Lama = in exile @ 1:
Um, no. "And if countries are really concerned about Nepal, we shouldn’t have this sort of non-issue of opening ceremonies or not."
"Countries" are not concerned about Nepal. They are concerned about Tibet.
SplendidOne @ 68:
You were there, huh? If true, big deal. Proves nothing about your point.
Your point, BTW, is bogus. The Chinese destroyed hundreds of monasteries and have imprisoned, tortured and killed hundreds of monks. Maybe to you that is normality, or merely a different, excusable kind of 'weirdness'.
You're an apologist for 4 years of Chinese Imperialist fascism and genocide.
Begone.
Correction to post 71 above:
I meant to say 40 years of Chinese Imperialist fascism and genocide, not 4 years.
"Begone?" How quaint.
I don't even think you know what my point is, you are so prejudiced up front.
Let me ask you these:
"How does a Tibetan monk earn his living?" (Either the peasants slave for him or the Chinese government pays him welfare. You choose.)
"Is the Dalai Lama a living god?" (Do progressives really have time for lunatics?)
"What are those torture rooms doing in the dungeons under the Potala Palace?" (Going un-used since the PRC took over, pretty busy before that.)
"Who "appointed" the first Dalai Lama?" (The Chinese Qing ("Ching") Dynasty.)
Want more?
Oh, and for some reason, no country in the world has ever recognized Tibet as a separate nation from China.
You opinion is sought: http://istibet.ning.com - facts, too. Reality does have a well-known liberal bias.
Actually, the Dalai Lama was installed almost 500 years ago by what was left of the Mongolian empire, of which later would see Buddhism imported and turned into the majority religion. The Lama would not become the political head of Tibet until a couple Lama's down the line. Like China, Nepal, and Bhutan, Tibet was a feudal kingdom, with a very rigid social and economic system. Like most of Asia, Tibet suffered under unequal treaties imposed by foreign governments (notably Britain).
This was essentially the case till 1949. With the defeat of KMT, and the fall of Beijing, the Communist Party sought to cement its control over what was once the Chinese empire, and especially, overthrow the control of local landlords and warlords in the various regions. So the Communist armies moved west and, tearing up feudal contracts and forgiving peasant debts all the way to Tibet.
Now this is where things get tricky. Is what China did, entering Tibet and destroying its feudal landlord class, which included the vested financial interests of the four schools of Buddhism in Tibet, invasion and oppression? Or is it possible that the Communists are both sinners and saints, initially supporting the overthrow of a generally reviled group of landlords, only, in the end, to replace it with their own bureaucratic apparatus?
That seems to be the case. To suggest that the Dalai Lama, and the landlord class he ostensibly represented, were a bunch of knobs is not to suggest that one approves of the Communist party's now increasing corruption and oppression in the area. In the same way calling Iran a corrupt theocratic state does not mean you support war against on Iran, or looking for a peaceful resolution of the Korean nuclear crisis means you support Kim Jong-il's brutal authoritarian regime, its possible to deal with a certain amount of subtlety in regards to Tibet. We must push forth for a Tibet free from the corruption of China AND free from the possibility of a return to a feudal state (lest we have another Nepal, a country who has seen its religiously backed monarchy thrown out recently).
For sure, the British as drug dealers in Asia are so little-known. Everyone in Shanghai wanted us to pay attention to "The Bund" - "Look at all those colonial buildings." Yawn. We thrilled at the Pudong newness and the old quarters of the Puxie.
Admitting to not being a wise person on this, okay, isn't Chinese oppression and corruption decreasing here, rather than increasing? No one I spoke with - and I got off the beaten path a lot - short of getting thrown in jail - waivered a bit to talk with me about the Cultural Revolution or the Tianenman Square Massacre. Geez, one artist I bought a painting from told me how he met his wife when he was "re-educated" to a compass factory after having gotten an MFA. Not a whole lot of rancor there.
Frankly, I think the PRC needs some young insight about transparency and "controlling the message."
Does Tibet even have the means to exist, economically, as a separate nation in a democratic sort of state? Personally, I'd rather have Chinese corruption than a feudal state, since I figure that I and most of my ancestors clearly were the 'peasants'.
What does Tibet "sell" besides tourism? I have a "singing bowl" and it's pretty cool. I have a necklace with a little "prayer wheel" icon on it. What next? Yak meat? Bottled Tibetan air?
Oh, but I forget, I am a "tool" and "misguided."
thank god! i can't tell you how relieved i am that this "gaffe" did not go unnoticed. i heard what hadley said and was confused by his reference to "nepal". hunh? and then i looked at snuffalupagus (my new sesame street name for george s) waiting for him to make a correction in country and NOTHING HAPPENED. was this better or worse than the mccain/lieberman discussion re: sunni/shia?
I'm not exactly sure why you are suggesting I called you a "tool". I'm simply saying that things in Tibet, like anywhere, are significantly more complicated than people want to ascribe it, and that you don't need to choose one or the other (supporting the Dalai Lama OR supporting the PRC's corrupt nomenklatura).
As indicated by the increasing number of strikes and peasant revolts, China does have a significant problem with its lip service to workers and peasants that it simply does not deliver on. While we mostly only hear about western-oriented dissidents (since they ostensibly only talk about political rights without tying them to economic issues), there is a significant, if un-organized, base for independent unionism, and surprisingly, a return to more leftist political positions.
As indicated by the actions of some in Tibet, there seems to be a division between monks, and the lay people, as to what exactly they're shooting for. The ethnic violence, mostly stemming from economic inequality in the region,seems divorced from the more political aspirations of the monks. With little to no news coming out of the area, its hard to gauge how much the lay people and the monks are on the same side.
SplendidOne @ 73:
Prejudiced? Don't accuse others of what you so blatantly show in your own posts. You fool no one.
Your 'torture rooms in the Potala' story is the same thing you seem to be peddling on comment threads at HuffingtonPost.com. You don't even have the wit to use a different handle.
The 'torture rooms in the Potala' is Chinese propaganda, no more. Parroted by agents of the Chinese gov't, of which you may be one.
What is not in doubt is the torture, imprisonment and abuse of Bhuddist monks in Tibet for decades. Also the innumerable monasteries destroyed along with the holy texts they contained, all at the hands of Chinese troops and Red Army engineers in the 1970s and 80s. As you surely know, there is ample photographic evidence for this ruthless campaign of destruction. It cannot be denied, even by Chinese apologists such as yourself.
As for how Tibetan monks earn their living - by collecting alms and working in the monasteries. What of it? What do you imply? That their alms-collecting is somehow tainted? Or that they live off the honest labor of others? If that is the case, so is the income of all priests, ministers and other religious devotees tainted. I'd say it's a hell of a lot less tainted than the money 'earned' by the apparatchiks, bureaucrats and bosses in the Chinese regime.
'Is the Dalai Lama a living God?' Another question you ask accusingly - and, in doing so, reveal your own fascist contempt for Tibetans and their ancient religion. Personally, I have no interest in the exact religious nature of the Dalai Lama's authority. I'm a democrat and a free man, so I respect the right of others to hold religious beliefs different from mine. Unlike you, apparently. What's it to you if Tibetans believe their lamas to be divine? If that is their faith, who are you to question it?
The ‘torture rooms in the Potala’ is Chinese propaganda, no more. Parroted by agents of the Chinese gov’t, of which you may be one.
Okay this is just starting to get to the heights of absurdity. Descriptions of Tibet's society existed before the PRC's takeover, and there generally not very pleasant. In fact, theres generally no feudal society that could be described as pleasant.
But again, this is confusing the issue. Recognizing that Tibet's former rulers were bad does not mean that the people who replaced them are paragons of morality. Recognizing that the Shah was a corrupt, brutal dictator does not excuse the equally brutal and autocratic regime of the Ayatollah. Disliking Ian Smith doesn't mean you support Mugabe. The world is a complicated place, and its important not to simplify everything into an easy case of X vs. Y.
Dalai Lama = in exile @ 1:
His representatives are in Dharmasala in India, not in Tibet like John Amato claims. And, I watched that video of the riots in Tibet, the video "that China doesn't want the world to see" so called and I'm thinking big deal!! I just see a riot and rioters. Yeah, and? Just like there was a riot and rioters in LA in 1992. It doesn't follow that there are human rights abuses. And, if one were to contend there are, surely one can equally assert then that there were human rights abuses in LA perpetrated by the USA Government in '92.
Alice Hussein @ 19:
This just underlines one thing. "America" doesn't give a toss about Tibet. Bush's National Security Advisor doesn't even know the difference between Tibet, a part of China, and Nepal, a separate country sandwiched between China and India. I bet the majority of the Congressmen and women who gathered for the Dalai Lama's speech on October 17th I think last year don't even realise that about 4 times more Tibetans live in neighbouring Qinghai province in China than live in The Tibetan Autonomous Region of China.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A75B9FF6-7B2E-49FE-9812-0031C2E1B...
This is not about Tibetan self-determination or Tibetan freedom. This is about USA imperialism. This is about divide and rule. Or as the Chinese government accurately says, "splitting the motherland", something that would be a welcome part of any USA imperialist's calculus.
Don't you remember Ahmed Chalabi? He had a government-in-exile too, just like the Dalai Lama. His was in Washington DC. His government-in-exile was for Iraq. He told the Neo-Cons a fib that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The neo-cons were conned. And the neo-cons, in turn, conned the rest of the US population to go to war against Iraq on the false pretext of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Don't be fooled a second time!!!
Do you think that because the Dalai Lama receives a Congressional Medal of Honour, has received a "Nobel Prize for Peace" and is addressed as "His Holiness" The Dalai Lama, you should trust him any more than you trusted Ahmed Chalabi?
Sean S. @ 80:
I take back the stuff about you being a Chinese agent.
But your defense of China's oppressive activities in Tibet, and especially your demeaning comments about Tibetan culture and religion, only serve to undermine your own arguments.
I gather from your comments on Huffpo, which carried a link to your website, that your comments about Tibet are based on your experiences during a recent trip to China. Terry, one trip with other American tourists, escorted and supervised by Chinese guides, does not make you an expert on China or Tibetan politics.
Your derisive comments about the Dalai Lama, Buddhist monks, etc, are right out of the official Chinese party line. Whatever you may have seen or experienced in China, you didn't experience for yourself the supposedly terrible "feudal" society your Chinese hosts seem to have spoken to you of. You simply have no right to judge Tibetan culture and religion, and no basis on which to assess how Tibetans governed themselves before the Chinese invasion.
As you yourself said above, the world is a complicated place. That cuts in many different directions.
Oh dear!! Am I going to be banned now? Or are my comments going to be deleted? Just like my comment on Nicole Belle's previous post was deleted... Better save them for future reference.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ihvaJElcA0wDeScLOA3LpRPD18wgD90195PG0
AP replaces Nepal with Tibet in Hadley's quotes, but doesn't acknowledge it
MINISTRY OF TRUTH
I don't know why anyone could be surprised. If McSame can confuse Shiites and Sunnis, Hadley can confuse Nepal with Tibet. Bush doesn't even know where Cornwall is.
Another Bush idiot who does not know the geography of a middle schooler. I wonder how these people ever find their way home. Of course Hadley probably has a driver to take him home. There may be a lot of Bushies joining Gonzo on the unemployment line come January.
Bush is lucky that crazy senator from Wisconsin is dead with Bush’s condescension to Communist China and it’s interests he would be deemed a pinko
He's focusing on the Nepal because he doesn't want anybody to remember the Iraq or the Tibet. You see, "I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because some people out there in our nation don't have maps and, uh, I believe that our education, like such as in South Africa and, uh, the Iraq, everywhere, like, such as, and I believe that we should, our education here in the U.S. should help the U.S., or should help South Africa, or should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future for our..." *DING*
Besides, come on, it's a well known fact that the Bush Administration has a problem with mixing up countries that are just so far away, because "it's hard work!" After 7 1/2 years I would have thought we'd have learned that lesson by now. Come on, people!
Paul Carr @ 83:
Bullshit, albeit apparently well-intentioned.
What Chalabi actually said to the neocons was more along the lines of "If you put me in charge of that country, I'll let your companies write my oil policy", and he was telling the God's honest truth. What both he and the neocons failed to take into account was that the Iraqi people would by all accounts rather no-one were in charge than someone as oily and dishonest as Chalabi.
Annoyed Canuck @ 79:
One of those descriptions is from 1900. The Qing Dynasty had yet to fall then, so obviously Mao's fun happy land had yet to arise.
That said, China's doing nothing we didn't do and still do to our Indigenous and the Australians to their Aborigines. Let's finish cleaning up our mess with our Indians before criticizing China for doing as we do and not as we say, mmkay?
Paul Carr @ 83:
pps @ 86:
My comment (drawn from 1984) underlines a number of things.
You must listen to many voices to discern the truth.
The powerful will seek to manipulate.
The people reporting may not themselves be competent or trustworthy.
Even when you believe you have arrived at an understanding you must remain vigilant.
That the AP does not acknowledge their change of the words critical keywords Tibet and Nepal is distressing and perhaps illustrative.
Is he just retarded, or voluntarily ignorant?
This is about T-I-B-E-T, you asshat. Even the Tibetan gov't in exile is in Dharamsala INDIA, so what in flipping hell is this dork talking about Nepal for?
THIS is who's in charge of intelligence?????
I think Alice had it right:
SplendidOne @ 76:
So let me see if I've got this straight -- their right to live as free people and worship as they so choose is entirely dependent upon what they can SELL?
Spoken just like a Communist convert to the Chicago School of Friedman Economics. (That would be the model that is FAILING all over the world right now -- you might want to find something new to latch onto -- that philosophy is going down in flames.)
Newsflash: Buying or selling more stuff will not make you a happy, fulfilled individual. There is more to life than production and consumption.
They lived peacefully for 1,500 years on their own. Their development is their own business. THEY DON'T NEED YOU.
hadley is just another republican fool, a liar, and an idiot, that is the whole makeup of the republican party.
Enough about Nepal and Tibet!
I want to know more about Obama's "bitterness" quote and how it could possibly affect the remaining primaries. Who cares if there is virtually no conceivable scenario under which Hillary would win?
The other question is: Why didn't Stephanopoulos call Hadley on this? George was so focused on whether or not Bush was going to the opening ceremonies that he wasn't even listening to what Hadley was saying, or maybe the whole thing was staged. Who cares. 95% of Americans are too stupid to find their own ass with both hands. Let see them find Nepal or Tibet on a map. At least Americans know where the Starbuck's and McDonald's are.
pps @ 86:
Why should Hadley even BOTHER to be accurate, when he can be confident that the corporate media will either ignore his repeated fuck-up like Stephanopoulos did, or completely re-write it as the Associated Press did.
JPsy @ 92:
Well, that's what I learned from watching the first part of "Bush's War".
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/#
I found this article just now.
http://www.slate.com/id/2096813/
"He [Chalabi] found defectors who affirmed suspicions that Saddam was building weapons of mass destruction.".
Anyway, as I recall from watching the first part of the documentary, "Bush's War", Chalabi passed on confidential information to the Pentagon regarding evidence of weapons of mass destruction, evidence, which to this day, hasn't been declassified. He had a close relationship with Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle in the Pentagon and, as I recall from watching the first part of "Bush's War", Paul Wolfowitz's overwillingness to trust Ahmed Chalabi put a irreversible strain to the point of sundering a decades-long friendship with Richard Armitage who was deputy secretary of state under Powell during the Bush administration's first term...
Paul Carr
I have made no defense of China's oppressive policies. I have not posted on HuffPo, and I have not made a website about my travels. I am not the other poster in this thread. Stop confusing us. In your rush to spit vitriol, you don't even know who you're responding to.
Actually the Dali Lama is in Dharamsala which is India.
"When the Dalai Lama left Tibet, Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru offered to permit him and his followers to establish a "government-in-exile" in Dharamsala in 1960. Since then, many Tibetan exiles have settled in the town, numbering several thousand. Most of these exiles live in Upper Dharamsala, or McLeod Ganj, where they established monasteries, temples and schools. The town is sometimes known as "Little Lhasa", after the Tibetan capital city, and has become an important tourist destination with many hotels and restaurants, creating a resurgence in tourism and commerce."
Of course, George "I am so beautiful" Stephy-coccollus, didn't catch the error either.
SplendidOne knows zilch about buddhism. Begging is not a sin when the spirituality is the goal. Buddah was a grand beggar. Not so splendid of him not to know that. But, I get his jib and I gots no complaint with his views, but he comes across as a capitalist pig.
People dont need goods to live on when they can produce what they need for sustenance. They don't need no steekin' imports, they need to be left alone. God nows what would have happened to them hundreds of years ago if the chinese weren't there to save them. And btw, Tibet is loaded with raw materials. Oh, they gots oil too! Google bauxite, dude and keep your mouth closed.
Amato seems as ill-informed - he says "Nepal did just hold their first elections" - he doesn;t know that these are far from Nepal's "first" elections! Nepal has had a functional democracy for a long time, with elected governments, though these governments were on some occasions disrupted by coups by the king or controlled by the king...
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