Kristol plays the Marx card
By Steve Benen Sunday Apr 13, 2008 5:15pm
The right seems to take inordinate pleasure in red-baiting Democrats, and today, the New York Times' Bill Kristol joins the parade.
I haven't read much Karl Marx since the early 1980s, when I taught political philosophy at the University of Pennsylvania. Still, it didn't take me long this weekend to find my copy of "The Marx-Engels Reader".... My occasion for spending a little time once again with the old Communist was Barack Obama's now-famous comment at an April 6 San Francisco fund-raiser. Obama was explaining his trouble winning over small-town, working-class voters: "It's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
This sent me to Marx's famous statement about religion in the introduction to his "Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right": "Religious suffering is at the same time an expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people."
I don't expect much in the way of intellectual seriousness from Kristol, but if he wants to understand how wrong he is, he might want to pick up his un-dog-eared copy of "The Marx-Engels Reader" again. Andrew Sullivan notes that the comparison doesn't make any sense.
UPDATE: (Nicole) Joe Lieberman sees nothing wrong with asking the question either. Figures. Gotta remember to send a big thank you card to Harry Reid for Lieberman's continued chairmanship.
Regardless, I'm as struck by the messenger as I am the message.
Kristol helps define elitism. He makes a considerable amount of money arguing in support of tax cuts for millionaires and military adventures that burden low-income families disproportionately. He's had every advantage in life, and now gets paid ridiculous sums to write regrettable items for the nation's most prestigious news outlet. Kristol probably visits small towns, only to tell his very wealthy friends about how "quaint" they are once he returns to the D.C. cocktail-party circuit and Fox News green room.
Kristol's most notable contribution to public policy came in a 1993 memo he wrote to congressional Republicans, explaining that they had to destroy any effort to pass a national healthcare bill, not because the policy was flawed, but because it would "give the Democrats a lock on the crucial middle-class vote and revive the reputation of the party." If tens of millions of Americans were left uninsured, so be it -- the goal, Kristol said, was to help the Republican Party, not those without insurance.
Barack Obama, meanwhile, used some clumsy language to describe a real phenomenon in struggling communities, where working-class families have fallen behind thanks to the policies embraced by Bill Kristol. Obama, whose faith is genuine, has, like Hillary Clinton, presented a policy agenda that might actually help these communities for a change.
Kristol concluded, "[W]hat has Barack Obama accomplished that entitles him to look down on his fellow Americans?" Oddly enough, I'm tempted to ask Kristol the same question.
Login or Register to post comments.
He was actually quoting Groucho. He just doesn't understand there are sunni and shia, Groucho and Karl. Potatoe and Dan Quaalude.
First he is a muslim terrorist, then Obama is a christian radical, now he his a godless communist.
Whats next, Obama is Hindi?
He hasn't read Marx since the early 80s but apparently he enjoys reading comic books and Reader's Digest. How else to account for his childish and narrow vision of the world?
oldtree @ 1:
I wish he would quote Harpo instead.
It's common among wingers to call any philosophy that - like the New Testament - promotes sympathy with the unfortunate, 'socialism'. That's supposed to make us DFH's deny the public interest, like the right wing.
Hey, for the five minutes or so it took him to write his column today he seems to have taken a break from trying to get the United States to attack Iran.
c. atrox @ 3:
He probably got it from the national enquirer.
There's a lot of this going around. David Horowitz parroted this line on the radio today. One of the members of our local school board called our state teachers' union president a communist recently.
When ya got nothing else, fall back on the old chestnuts. Like, from 1952...
Kristol is the consumate bloodthirsty psuedo-intellectual.
The sad thing is that so many Americans are psuedo-brained, and fall for the turd blossoms that pass Kristols lips so effortlessly, especially the GOPer strain of the Americanus Ignoramus.
The end of his column is especially rich:
What, indeed? (Pay no attention to his heritage, his upbringing, his education, his community service, legal and teaching work.) And while we're on the subject, what has William Kristol accomplished that entitles him to look down on those who are actually in the public arena? What has he been right about that qualifies him to comment in the paper of record about anything?
This is rediculous. I had an argument with my republican parents the other night. It was over Iraq and how I thought there wasn't any money being invested back into the United States and how most people in this country don't know how to work on something that is bigger than themselves, or at least those were my talking points. When I asked/said that however many people Saddam killed or kept down, did it compare to the likely 500,000 dead Iraqis, over 1.5 million displaced, without clean water, sewer, and food and gasoline? And that I think we only went there to try and steal there oil because we couldn't "justify" having to pay Saddam for it. The said, "Well, we need oil!" My jaw just dropped. We need oil...
The saddest part of it, record profits for oil companies... CEOs that earn 100,000 a day...
Why don't Kristol and republican's ever want to talk about real issues?
Socialism is a repuke code word for demonizing people who care about others. That's how sick and fucked-up they are. In order to trash people of goodwill, they have to associate it with a percieved insult. Meanwhile, neocons are the biggest welfare queens (socialism lovers) on the face of the earth. Their sick brand of social however is raping the poor and middle class so they can give more disposable income to multi-millionaires!
Democrats need to start using the term sociopath when describing neocons. That would be the truth!
I would like to see someone on the tube ask Lieberman where are his loyalites; the GOP? the United States? or Isreal?
But religion IS the opiate of the people. Even though thats not what Obama was saying.
Considering the fact that the Demosratically controlled Senate has made no inroads in stopping the Iraq occupation(or extra-constitutional eavesdropping, for that matter), I believe that the Democrats made a huge mistake in allowing the LieberMan to caucus with them.
I think they should expell him on principle.
They won't lose any more votes than they would have by phantom filibuster in the first place. And this would set the LieberMan up as the disgruntled and vindictive soul that he is when he appears at the Republican Convention.
Kristol is entitled to his opinion (who cares WHAT he thinks)! However, I do agree that Obama really blew it with the comment he made (but NOT for the reason that Kristol is positing).
This is the baby boomer generation after 25 years of television.
Of course, Kristol could have easily have referred to "Bread and Circuses" (panem et circenses) from Juvenal's Satire X, but then he would be comparing Obama's words to that of a highly respected Roman poet, when Kristol's obvious intent is to imply that Obama is a Marxist.
Good ol' Bill Kristol...a lesser, lobotomized caricature of William F. Buckley. When the going gets tough, you can count on Kristol to resort to a weak ad hominem slur.
I Hate to get in the middle of ANOTHER Obama-Clinton sandbox throwing contest-But whocares? Billy is an idiot. I think everyone's mind is made up-OR It should be. what else do WE need to know?
But get this: during Lieberman's run for the Senate as a Democrat back in 2006 Obama came to a CT fundraiser, urging the supporters to get out there and make sure that Holy Joe won because he was such a "great Democr"at and did wonders in serving CT. The reason Joe lost the Dem primary was because he was pro war (and remember, Obama would not have voted for it, blah, blah, blah). So Joe lost and switched over to run as an Independent with the help of the CT Repubs. So now we fast forward and Joe is not sure if Obama is or is not a Marxist. Talk about hypocrisy coming out of their combine two faces.
Reply to Myshiba:
The truth hurts sometimes don't it? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to inflame anything here, but if you actually watch the entire speech, or at least a good 15 minutes of it, you'd realize how out of context this has been taken... Just like Reverend White. It's pathetic really. The first candidate willing to speak the truth, plainly, is getting shot down by a bunch of assholes. On both sides...
Over the weekend I heard someone say that Lieberman has become Smithers to McCain's Mr. Burns. Pretty good analogy.
Obama's remark was a two-fer for the Ruin or Rule crowd and their pernicious allies (and, yeah, I mean Hillary Clinton). Not only can they lie and misconstrue that particular remark, but they can also invoke San Franciso (wink-wink, nudge-nudge) doing it.
Pat J @ 21:
I'm from CT and grew up there. Joe was a wonderful guy(back then) championing the little guy. Now He's a hack.
Is anyone seeing the first possible three-way race here? I mean, it's a slim chance, but even if Hillary gets the nomination, Obama has raised so much money. If Hillary doesn't squeezy out the delegates, will she be able to run as an independant? I'm not sure I even care anymore lol...
He was a Muslim last week. I can't keep track of all his affiliations.
He's right. I'd hate to think of a communist like Obama taking charge of this country. Under communism, the government would be corrupt, the economy would be fucked up, the media would be lying toadies who parrot the party line, and we would be engaged in pointless bloody wars to expand a failed ideology.
All you libs should be thankful that we're ruled by conservatives because under conservatism we... uh... um.... well... oh shit.
William Kristol, now there's a guy who really understands the working class! Yeah...right!!
Jake @ 26:
I'm with You. I has become very boring.
Hell, I thought ol' Joe McCarthy croaked a long time ago. Apparently, he has been reincarnated in the body of William Kristol.
To loosely quote one of McCarthy's foes, "At long last, sir, have you no shame?"
I've stepped in dung that smells better than Kristol.
And has anyone seen the cover artlcle on the New Republic? An 'analysis' of why Michelle Obama has negative feelings about the US. Hmm - maybe because she isn't a rich old white man who was born to privilege and has never had to scrounge for a living? Nah - they just think she's just ungrateful.
Myshiba @ 17:
I am so sick of this shit, from the msm and the repugs. What Obama said was the sad truth about the state of America. I also heard Hillarys speech today, and she has done it for me. I will not vote for her. I would hate to see McCrazy win, but Hillary really isn't any different.
Powkat @ 23:
Come on, Mr Burns isn't THAT old.
Myshiba @ 17:
it is important what he thinks, this asshole has a national advantage to be heard
and like most(all) gop pundits spewing reichwingneocon trash, the facts and the truth
are important. obama was actually right on with his comments and if you heard the
interviews taken from some of these small towns in penn., you would hear the people
there agreeing with obama and not with the gop liars.
Oh Jesus! Another Obama/Clinton pigpile. How...yawn ...interesting.
JM @ 29:
Actually, like Steve Martin in "The Jerk" he was born a poor black child...
xargaw @ 14:
haha! I would dearly love to see that as well. But you know that the brave soul would immediately be branded as an anti-Semite and get blacklisted from being in any position of influence in the media ever again. AIPAC would then get the senators and congress people in their pocket to pass a resolution entitled "The Patriotic U.S. Resolution Affirming Unconditional Support of Our Friend in the Middle East, Israel and Condemnation of any Efforts to Express an Alternative Opinion."
On Bill Kristol, this guy sounds like a completely unhinged conspiracy theorist who had a nervous breakdown and is now homeless (apologies to homeless people) and muttering to himself on the streets.
seele @ 2:
I think that next, Obama will be the same-old-same-old of elderly, white-haired, white guys in charge of Washington, and that'll be Kristol's reason we should all vote for McCain. Either that, or that Obama is albino.
You know, we really have to get a meme out there in the political culture. Everything this guy says is dead wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG!
You want to know the future? Just look into the Kristol Ball -- and conclude the opposite!
I mean, Karl Marx?! Are you fracking kidding?
Did I read that correctly?
William Kristol has communist literature in his home? And America is supposed to listen to what that commie sympathizer and financial supporter has to say? I'm thinking no.
Pardon me while I wrap an American flag around my ears so I'm not tainted by his anti-American propoganda.
Interesting. I was listening to right wing radio the other night (I was driving someone's parent's car as a favor, tried some of their stations, and 560 Hot Talk was pre-programmed...so i decided to just listen for a few minutes) and this fella named Mark Levin was on a "lib" rant (he even started with "You libs out there"). Part of the diatribe was to call us all Marxists. I am not debating whether this is bad or good, but I do think it is noteworthy that this clown was going Marxy just as Kristol had written his latest article. man, these conservatives sure do pass the index cards around. I'd admire them for their ability to stick together if I didn't find the practice so pathetic and repugnant.
Here comes the newest righty meme, I guess.
Steve,
You DO know that giving attention to Kristol only makes him more legitimate don't you? If you want to discredit Kristol, you should ignore him. When you criticize him, Kristol and all his supporters rally around each other and giggle at how angry he is making people on the left.
If Kristol hears criticism from the extreme left, then this only gives him more energy and self-fulfillment in his ideas, because it means in his mind that he is doing something right. It is solipsistic to think that pointing out his errors in reasoning is enough to make him see his errors. He WANTS the far left to criticize him. That gives him clues that he is on the right track, at least in his own mind.
The more the left criticizes him, the more he thinks that he is doing things right, because he thinks that the left is a totally wrong ideology. So if people on the totally wrong side criticize him, in his mind it means he is right, which will cause him to continue on with his ideas.
I am so amazed that the left (and right for that matter) haven't figured this out yet.
Tehehe...i saw a quote about Obama having trouble with the bourgeois values of middle america as well. This is too hilarious, the world's current economic order is tumbling like a house of cards! The language has changed quite a bit in the last 7 years and now we're starting to see some old words coming back in style so keep using "Marxist" as an insult, it makes me giggle.
By the way, you know who should really be compared to Karl Marx? Bill Fucking Kristol!
A guy who offers a dubious academic theory whose application to the real world is lethal.
I doubt Kristol and Lieberman know much more about Marx than what they learned from Joe McCarthy and Reagan. But if Lieberman's cool with calling Obama a Marxist, then I'm more than cool with calling him a bloodthirsty, warmongering fascist.
Drew @ 43:
I respectfully disagree. The "ignore it and it will go away" strategy works before someone like Kristol has gained prominence, status and power. Once he has a place on television and in the culture, he must be countered at every turn. Once he has that power and status, ignoring him is a lot like ignoring your teeth. Sure, they'll go away if you ignore them, leaving your mouth disease-ridden and in painful shambles as they slowly disappear.
At a certain point, some video game entrepreneur tried to sell a game in which the player took the role of the Nazis, and the goal was to exterminate as many Jews as possible. The Jewish community at the time rightly ignored this obviously offensive little ploy, knowing full well that the creator was banking on the controversy to sell his garbage. No one ever heard of the guy because no one made a big deal of it.
But if, for some reason, some huge company had marketed that game, and it began to sell like hotcakes, and the news started to examine the trend, simply ignoring it would not be a good idea.
mutiple talking points from the repugs today!
1) elite obama
1) campaign financing violator obama
1) godless communist obama
pity they couldn't count higher than 1. they have given themselves away.
Smack my ass for blog-whoring but I have comments by Clinton Superdelegate/PA Governor Ed Rendell that pre-date Obama's "bitter" kerfuffle with even less nuance here.
-AF
Andrew Sullivan Is A Fraud
They are attacking the wrong candidate.
The Obama Post and bittergate brought Obama dowm.
In probably one of the dumbest moves I have ever witnessed in politics, Obama refuses to apologize for insulting the voters.
Too late now, he is over.
Drop out Obama.
Wow....so, in Bill Kristol's world, Barack Obama believes in one-party totalitarian domination over the rest of the world for a glorious proletarian revolution against the bourgeouisie (mangled, IK) and there's little to separate Barack Obama from Uncle Joe or Chairman Mao or Pol Pot....
What motherf*cking alternate reality is this guy from?????!!!!!
Drew @ 43: You're entitled to your take, but you're completely wrong. Your approach would work for a low-ranking hack like right-wing blogger Mark Noonan, but Kristol is in The New York Times. He's editor of Weekly Standard, very influential in conservative circles, and on Fox News all the time. During this campaign alone, he's floated BS memes that other conservatives have replicated. It's virtually impossible to "ignore" him, and folly to try. You've got the analysis backwards. Kristol gives liberals a preview of conservative attacks, and it's best to start knocking them down as soon as possible. You're also making the mistake of assuming that Kristol is arguing in good faith. He's not. There are good faith conservatives out there, but Kristol is an odious hack. Benen's analysis doesn't validate Kristol. It notes that he's got a big microphone, but he's completely full of BS (while a reaction to Kristol that accepts Kristol's prejudicial, false framing would play into Kristol's hands). We need much more of those challenges - the liberal blogs excel at it, but many liberal pundits don't, and the MSM certainly doesn't fact-check as much as it should. Remember the Swift Boat smear campaign? Challenging this sort of BS is important for winning elections, but even more so for media reform. Put more simply, how is pointing out that Kristol is completely full of crap possibly a bad thing?
Marx makes more sense than any of our politicians do.
oldtree @ 1:
Actually, its long past time that William the Bloody (doofus) started working on his Harpo Impression. I can almost hear the placid silence now . . .
getalife @ 50:
HOW DARE HE!! How dare he say it like it is and not spin everything and talk to people like we are children. He shouldn't bring up hard truths. He should just say everything is fine like the republicans do. That is after all what it seems people expect and even want from their leaders.
Karen @ 47:
I appreciate your thoughts. But I think you may be overestimating the power that charlatans, like Kristol, have. I consider many lesser tools like Tucker Carlson, and how he has been attacked for YEARS by the left. But he stayed....until his ratings were too low. Those ratings being low is proof that he was starting to be ignored, and it was the low ratings based on ignoring him that got him fired.
I think that's the same thing we need to do with Kirstol. I think you are making him seem more important and more intelligent than he really is when you say that he has gained "prominence, status and power". These things are not permanent, they are temporary. They are temporary because they are based on how much attention they are getting!
I think the TRUE reason why people on the left think he needs to be attacked is so that they have something to talk about, that is, so that they have a source for engaging in discussions. I think in this sense, the left RELIES on Kristol. Without Kristol, who is going to be attacked?
I honestly believe that "symbiosis" is a very prominent aspect of human nature. As a person who does not consider himself to be left or right, I find that the left and right are almost dependent on each other. The people on each side use the other to advance their own agenda, and this is probably the reason why improper usage of the other side is frequent. For example, Kristol probably hates communism, and so he needs a way to communicate it. He therefore uses Obama, someone on the left, as the target for his thoughts.
I really think that this mentality of not understanding symbiosis is the primary reason why so many errors are made in applying one's own ideas. People on both the right and left use the people on the other side in order to get their message across, even if the person or people chosen have absolutely no connection at all to what is said.
This mistaken ideology is perhaps further a result of the terrible philosophy of treating people not as ends but as means. Kristol is treating Obama not as an end him himself, but as a means in order to advance is own neo-con agenda.
I don't know, does this make sense? I think you would understand this.
getalife @ 50:
pathetic
I was once told I was being Marxist, when among coworkers, I responded to a question why so many people in the Middle East were angry, by saying "A hungry man is an angry man." No, I replied, just a Wailer. Get up and stand up.
Oh my gosh. I can't believe the MSM and the left-wing blogospere is making this Lieberman flap into a really big deal. If you go back and listen to the whole speech and take everything he said into context, it all makes perfect sense. Instead we get one or two cherry-picked sentences and then it gets parsed every which way but Sunday and all the talking heads go crazy. People are really going out of their way to try to misconstrue his words.
He really wasn't trying to condescend to anyone or disparage their beliefs; he was just trying to talk about what's really bothering people, what's really on their minds. Sure it may have been awkwardly worded, but in many respects, he was telling people the truth. It's about time we had a politician who wasn't afraid to tell people the hard realities.
And besides, even if he worded things in a way that made people offended, I'm sure he deeply regrets that.
getalife @ 50:
You DO understand that the people Obama talked about are rallying around Obama in a positive way, don't you? Did you know that groups of bitter people are starting to form that are saying Obama "gets it"??
But this is besides the point. All the media are wasting their time talking about a few fucking WORDS someone said, meanwhile it was discovered Bush signed off on a fucking TORTURE memo, and all the goddamn media can do is ignore THAT and focus on two or three words? Do you not see the insanity in this? People are being TORTURED and we're worrying about a few words?
You talk about DUMB moves, well sir, THAT is a dumb move. And you eat it up...sad...
What is pandering and insulting to working class folks are Clinton and McCain and the rest of these "explainers" rushing to tell working class voters what to think about what Obama said.
I love that their finally getting to recycle their Cold War garbage. Kristol is about as convincing as a bad guy in a George Clooney political flic.
What was the point of posting this article by Bill Kristol? Was it to minimize the questions about Obama and what he said about the voters of PA to a group of wealthy contributors at a San Francisco fundraiser? Kristol is a moron and this is nothing more than trying to deflect from the issue. There are legitimate concerns about what Obama said but again, no questions allowed.
What Obama said was insensitive and insulting. Of course people are bitter about what's happened to our country over the past 7+ horrific years but saying that people "cling" to their guns and their God because of it is just stupid. Why can't he just apologize and own his mistakes. We've already got someone in the WH that cannot admit a mistake and I don't want another one.
Bill Kristol @ 62:
Are you talking about yourself in the third person?
Next week the reich-wing MSM will claim Obama is a transvestite.
Miles Tougeaux @ 15:
Funny how those that are the most religious also vote against their own economic best interest they only see the moral view
If one considers the target audience for his statement, the typical Fox news loyalist, then the statement DOES NOT HAVE TO MAKE SENSE! To these toothless fans, the act of simply making ANY STATEMENT "on the TV" makes it TRUE! Kristol knows this, as does Rove and the rest of the neocons. He is no fool. He plays these people for the fools they are because after all, their vote counts as much as any college political professor's. He harvests votes ANY WAY HE CAN... and believe me, that is the ONLY way they would garner votes after all that has transpired.
63: And Hillary still has to admit her "mistake" in voting to authorize the Iraq war.
When she had a chance to display 'Profiles in Courage" Sen. Clinton choose "Profiles in Triangulation".
(I'll still vote her over mcbush, but she really should stop sniping and acting like a spoiled princess.)
We have lots of bitter people around here, they use to make automobiles here in Detroit, before the price of gasoline hit the roof. The latest poll of Michigan shows Obama passing Clinton.
Bill Kristol should stick with the Marx Brothers, not Karl Marx.
Drew @ 60:
Well Said!!
I don't think either Kristol or Lieberman meant he was a Marxist in the sense of "one who follows the philosophy of Marx". More in the sense of "very very scary person that all true Americans should fear and loathe".
Bill Kristol, the neocon warmongering pig that never gets nothing correct...and I mean absolutely nothing!
Powkat @ 32:
Politically, the magazine generally supports center-left, liberal policies.
Why is a so called progressive magazine for liberals smearing Michelle Obama faux style?
Groucho, Chico, Harpo, Zeppo and Gummo have passed on, but Dummo has got a sweet gig at the NY Times...
The smoking gun on Hillary:
In multiple meetings with Theda Skocpol, both Bill & Hillary Clinton spoke about the working class and
I'd like to see Theda Skocpol share about those meetings on the national news...
Talking Points Memo
First Reverend Wright gets pilloried for telling the truth about US foreign policy and racism at home, now Obama is getting it for pointing out the obvious.
As far as religion goes, Marx was spot on. Right wing despots through history have used religion as a tool to rally the masses and obscure the institutional power structures that lay at the root of their impoverishment and disenfranchisement. What's the fuss? What Obama said is the same point made by Thomas Frank in "What's the Matter with Kansas?" It is no secret that poor and blue collar workers who vote Republican against their own economic interests do so because of two factors: The Democrats, under the leadership of the corporate imprint Democratic Leadership Council, alienated working class voters by abandoning their economic interests in favor of chasing corporate campaign financing (anybody remember NAFTA?). Having no more reason to vote Democratic, they turn to the Republican party who have marketed themselves as representing blue-collar "values" i.e. God, Guns and
Gays. Do we have to pretend that this phenomena doesn't exist? Are we elitist in pointing out that under the DLC and Clinton, the Democratic party lost its soul and alienated the working class?Anybody who denies that what Obama says is the truth is being willfully deceptive.
Kristol, O'Reilly, Alan Keyes and assorted other morons have degrees from Harvard, Yale or Stanford. That only means they have academic ability. Beyond that they have the intelligence of a teaspoon.
getalife @ 50:
Aaaah, if only you were to apply your screen name to yourself.
Anyhow, care to point out where and when did Obama insult the voters?
Tyler Durden Says:
It's mind numbing the contortions they have to go through to re construe Obama's words as an insult. This story has no real legs but that won't stop the pundit class from trying to make a mountain of BS out of it.
Oh. That fucking retard still has a voice?
Kristol has been a bigger terrorist and un-American slug than almost anyone, always a spokesman for the worst possible plan.
Is there any news outlet that is not on board with destroying our republic?
I know this is the op ed page but if they allow this - how can they claim their goal is not an America in the gutter?
I know, next week we will see an article in the NYT about how our political discourse sucks. Tweety likes to talk about that before he introduces Coulter.
Our nation has NO CHANCE LEFT. NONE!
This was a great and mighty nation and it has taken a lot for the conservative movement to kill it, but they have succeeded.
Snowball @ 79:
From where I am standing and if I have any faith in the majority of Americans, it looks like Obama said some things that made a lot of sense (straight talk, indeed. McMealyMouthed ought to take note) and that the people he was addressing were going to respond, if not favorably, then with a respectful ear to someone who is talking more on the real and less bullshit politico-speak; engaging in real dialogue. The righties had to get ahead of that and make sure those same people were insulted by explaining to them just how insulting what Obama said really was. No WAY were they going to let the masses get any kind of truth without their take on it, meaning: negative spin.
I love the way Getalife@50, Dennis@59, and Bluesage@63 have to come to grips with the fact that their views on Obama are very similar to Bloody Billy. One can be a conservative and not realize it guys and girls. Aahahahahahahaha!!!!
As much as I hate to say it, watching conservative sissy-boys like Kristol, Hannity, and all the other pretty boys on Faux and in the rest of the media, convinces me that the only way out of this lust for war in America is to bring back the draft, and a draft with no deferments.
Bonkers Hussein @ 83:
I should say:
Obama said some things that could have made a lot of sense (to the people he was referencing).
I have no idea how they actually would take his words. Far be it for me to assume anything about people I have never met. Each person should try to make up their own minds about how they feel about what he said, not necessarily have it spelled out for them or especially not have it twisted around.
Bonkers Hussein @ 83:
Interesting point, friend. If War loving McFraud had made those comments the barbecue loving MSM would have labeled it as "straight talk", or if it didn't garner a good response a "senior moment". Most thinking people(who don't have an agenda already) will give Obama the benefit of doubt since he does not have a track record of hateful comments, and he does appear to be a nice and decent person. Next fake ass story, please.
As much as I hate to say it, watching conservative sissy-boys like Kristol, Hannity, and all the other pretty boys on Faux and in the rest of the media ...
As opposed to what other kind of conservative?
.
I once saw obama hitting his sneaker on a bench trying to clear off some mud in the treads. First thing that came to mind was Nikita Kruschev. Freakin' commie!
So is John McCain a marxist. I saw Scarborough on " Race for the Whitehouse" and he implied that republicans are going to use the " bitter on anti-immigration" comment against him in the general election. They will try to pull the race card on him and I hope dems are ready to counterattack them b/c McCain actually said republicans were acist b/c of their anti-immigration position....
HUGH HEWITT SHOW:
HH: ...did you serve alongside Senator McCain for 12 years or longer?
RS: 12 years.
HH: So you know him well.
RS: I do.
HH: When you hear the media talking about him, and of course, he got Iraq right, and we’re all grateful for that, but he wasn’t the only Republican to get it right. Do you believe he’s sincerely changed on the immigration bill to where he understands the message that was delivered last summer?
RS: No.
HH: Why not?
RS: Well, I mean, because John McCain was the leader on the other side of the aisle. John McCain was the guy who was working with Ted Kennedy to drive it down our throats, and lectured us repeatedly about how xenophobic we were, lectured us, us being the Republican conference, about how wrong we were on this, how we were on the wrong side of history, and that you know, this is important for his…because having come from Arizona, knowing the strength of the Hispanic community, that we were going to be seen as racists, and he wasn’t going be part of that, that he was not a racist, and that if we were for tougher borders, it was a racist thing. Look, John McCain looks at things through the eyes, on these kind of domestic policy issues, looks at it through the eyes of the New York Times editorial board, and accepts that predisposition that if you are not, if you stand for conservative principles, there’s some genetic defect.
HH: ...did you serve alongside Senator McCain for 12 years or
Looks like McCain thinks people opposed to immigration are racist.
Smarmy, sissified, Zionist knucklehead.
Some day the fascist propagandists like Kristol will see justice for their crimes against humanity.
So honestly, were this guy and Benito Mussolini separated at birth?
Marx may have gone too far in some ways, but, in economics, he is generally regarded as a genius.
Gee, what a surprise that Michael Gerson also brought up Marx in the segment following last night's "Compassion Forum" on CNN. Clearly, the new message from the GOP will be that Obama=community organizer=America-hating Commie Pinko. Sick.
Mike @ 31:
Joe McCarthy had sex with a carp and Kristol is what hatched.
yellow dog @ 77:
It doesn't even mean that. Heard of legacies and 'the gentleman's C"?
On the February 29, 2008 Real Time, Bill Maher asked Hillary Clinton superdelegate PA Governor Ed Rendell:
Gov. Rendell's reply:
Is Gov. Rendell a condescending elitist or a realist? The sole difference between Gov. Rendell's comments vs. Sen. Obama's comments is that Obama actually provided a context and rationale for his perception whereas Rendell simply implies there is rampant bigotry and sexism among his constituents.
The only mistake Sen. Obama made in his "bitter people" comments is one of politesse. He should never have singled out PA before the primary lest undecided voters be offended. Those already committed to Obama are all too painfully aware that he speaks the truth.
Enough with this kerfuffle already.
-AF
Andrew Sullivan Is A Fraud
Karen @ 47:
I respectfully disagree with you, Karen. No matter how well established someone like Kristol is, it still becomes a matter of ratings and "What have you done for me lately?". FOX has been under some pressure, ever since the democratic candidates, and liberal pundits, began refusing to come on their shows. Remember BillO groveling to Obama to come on his show? Without having the liberal side, FOX lost what little legitimacy they had and were shown to being insignificant. It was a beautiful thing to witness. Kristol has already been under pressure. Many people at the NYT were pissed when he was hired as a columnist. They were quite vocal about it. I think it is important to keep the pressure on, and ignoring him as insignificant is a one good tactic for doing so.
Bill "Neocon" Kristol's "attack" is like a mosquito biting Iron Man. Get this douchbag off my paid cable!!!
MARX
I don't like Obama for many reasons. Even in my worst moments I couldn't compare his words to Marx.
Kristol is living proof that it's not cream that rises to the top.
God, it's like looking in a toilet.
God, this is pathetic. Are the right wingers that out of smears? Communist- who is going to fall for that any more? Next thing you know they are going to tell us that Obama is a Hun.
Cantor de Mambo @ 92:
Amen. It make me sick that this asshole and fuckers like him still have their freedom.
When are we going to refuse to listen to morons such as Kristol? If it becomes clear we don't give a flying f*** what he says, maybe they'll quit having him on these shows.
kristol is pretty much a mental midget who is almost always wrong about everything. Why do people listen to this Israeli intellegence agent anyway?
Only undergraduates and jackasses read Marx from the Marx-Engels reader. These are people that can't understand what Marx says in context of the original, challenging works themselves.
Willie, you found your level!
I guarantee you that Willie the Weiner never read Marx and if he did, he didn't understand it.
Kristol is an idiot. He is a willfully ignorant fool, to boot. His comparison of Obama to Marx is just plain stupid. He deserves to be publicly wedgied and hung by his underwear on a hook. Period.
Kristol is a fascist masquerading as a Conservative.
I know some male gigolo has got to have some tape on this guy.
PLEASE everyone e-mail this "person" or the NYTimes your comments.
A thousand voices cannot all be wrong.
Writing amongst yourselves does not change anything.
kristol is just a pompus full of shit lying asshole of a fool. I don't know why anyone would listen to anything he says!!!
Jeffrey Stewart @ 107:
Yeah, somehow I don't picture Mr. "shit eating grin" capable of reading through all the volumes of Das Kapital.
A back to school test to Kristol
Question one - What happens to empires in the end and why does it happen?
yeah old but..
Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception
Many neoconservatives like Paul Wolfowitz are disciples of a philosopher who believed that the elite should use deception, religious fervor and perpetual war to control the ignorant masses.
http://www.alternet.org/story/15935
oh yes, the gop is now calling Obama a communist....they suck!
jnratliff @ 111:
But people do, unfotunately.
Drew @ 43:
So, I suppose you think that because there isn't any argument coming from the left that he will just shutup right? You think that if we don't continually discount his lies, that they will go silently into the night and not fall on MILLIONS of ears? Where do you get this kind of thinking?
Maybe that's why the neocon smear machine wins... Because you think they will be silent if we don't argue with them.
No, see that's what they want you to do. They don't want the truth out there. Because that works for them, and convinces people who have been told that the TV is all the truth.
Keep thinking like that, take a look outside, your kind of thinking is the reason we are in this mess in the first place.
why the fuck does anyone care what senile chicken hawk neo con nazi kristol-meth thinks anymore.. that simpleton cock smoker doesn't know his ass from his elbow and has been talking gibberish for decades
bloody little bill has led a charmed life of prep schools and family money, learning early from his neo butt father that they are above everyone else and no lie or spin is to lowdown to use in the fight to keep it that way. His views and reasoning should be given the same weight as one would give to a poor stand up comic, just like dennis miller as an example. When ever my friends hear a neo- clown speak fairy tale speak, we just look at one another for a few seconds, then burst out laughing like they had just said the best joke we ever heard,It leaves them no road to even try to spin their reasoning on you and they realize right off that you are not going to buy into any bullshit. If they do try to start spinning, you just laugh harder and louder at each thing they say. Works real good as they soon go off in search of someone who will not start laughing the moment they open their mouths. I think we all should use this method as it makes it very hard to make a spin appear legitimate when people burst out laughing at every word you say!---to rico@85 your right but add just one more thing--Anyone in congress who votes for war, they or at least one of their family members are with the first boots on the ground, no matter what or who, after all if it is bad enough that we must go to war, then they have to help carry the load along with us, then we will see some real thought and reasoning before we stick our nose where it doesn't belong And after all everyone in congress loves america right? let them prove it with something besides flapping their lips. Congress-put yourself or your loved ones ass, where your mouth is! we do!
Loosely Twisted @ 117:
"So, I suppose you think that because there isn't any argument coming from the left that he will just shutup right? You think that if we don't continually discount his lies, that they will go silently into the night and not fall on MILLIONS of ears?"
Yep. Right now he is not a politician. He makes his living in the market. In the market, the only way to eliminate something you don't want is to try your best to eliminate the demand. You won't be able to eliminate it by trying to remove the supply. This property of the market is incontrovertible. Take the drug war for example. They are trying to eliminate drugs by attacking the supply. But as long as there is a demand there will be a supply. Another example is illegal aliens. They are trying to eliminate the problem by attacking the supply or, the illegal aliens themselves, rather than the demand, which is welfare money and other benefits from the state.
If you try to eliminate people like Kristol from the media by attacking the supply, that is, Kristol himself, then you will never rid the world of "his kind". Because even if you succeed in getting rid of Kristol, the demand for people like Kristol is still there, and so another patsy will take his place. Have you noticed that this is how the Bush administration operates? So, the best way to eliminate people like Kristol is to try to eliminate the demand for people like Kristol, which means ignore and boycott. Eventually he will no longer be paid by the paper, because the paper will see that there is just no demand for him anymore. This is how the market operates. Boycotts are always the best way at getting unwanted products out of the market.
Now, you can be afraid of Kristol, I know you are afraid because your instinct is to attack him, then that's fine. But don't be surprised if another idiot comes in to replace him. What you don't want to think is that there is a demand for Kristol's writings right now. When people, who don't really know Kristol, see him being attacked by so many others, they get interested why he is being so attacked. Since so people automatically think "left or right" in this country, the people on the right will see Kristol being attacked by those on the left, and since they are on the right, they will automatically "side" with Kristol. Thus Kristol's popularity has grown just because he is being attacked by people on the left.
Now, in politics it is different. We SHOULD attack them if they err. This is because government is funded by a demand that is forced, not voluntary. So no matter how much we ignore them, the demand will never go away, because the demand is taxes, which are law.
Hmmm . . . Religion is the opiate of the masses. And that is incorrect how?
Damn right I'm elite, dumbasses. Now that I've upset your fragile vanity it is the
death spiral of clinical depression for you.
.
The Fascist NoeCons and their Loyalist Christian(R) Cultists want to call people names eh...?
.
.
R E M E M B E R:
These Fascist NeoCons practice projection on a daily basis...
"This sent me to Marx’s famous statement about religion in the introduction to his “Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right”: “Religious suffering is at the same time an expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people.”
DON'T FORGET...
G.W.Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'
LOLOLOLololololol.....
.
LIEBERMAN AND MARXISM?
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/14/lieberman-its-a-good-question-to-ask...
NAPOLITANO: Hey Sen. Lieberman, you know Barack Obama, is he a Marxist as Bill Kristol says might be the case in today’s New York Times?
LIEBERMAN: Well, you know, I must say that’s a good question.…I’d hesitate to say he’s a Marxist, but he’s got some positions that are far to the left of me and I think mainstream America.
Dear Joe,
Are you f*cking kidding me? We were roommates for four years at Yale and I was always to the left of you. (Face it, I was a "scholarship" student -- although from a working-class "Republican" family and you weren't. Your father was "Democratic" and rich enough as a liquor store owner to pay your full way.) I experienced first-hand the "Bush" legacy, bussing dishes for those preppy, rich boy assholes as a scholarship job. You didn't. So, please spare this "man of the people" bullshit.
Barack Obama and I are to the "left" of you because we actually care about what happens to the real American people. You obviously don't. You care only about oil and Israel, the pharmaceutical and insurance industries. Hardly what mainstream America cares about. You have, unfortunately, become a total buffoon and a "tool" of imperialism.
And yet neither you nor any of your family, children or grandchildren, have volunteered to join the military and fight for America. Why?
Are you just a chickenshit chickenhawk? Is that to be your real legacy? To have other poorer and minority people die for your neo-con fantasies of an American Empire in the Middle East?
Please spare me your total (and false) hubris. Please think about the good of America and bring our troops home now. If not, get your children and grandchildren to join the military and fight your fight. That's the least you can do. Otherwise, you're not only a coward, but a complete hypocrite. I'd like to think better of you. Please show me how I can.
Sincerely,
David
You mean, he stopped short of, all history is the history of class warfare, and being enslaved to those that own the means of production (which leaves people bitter and looking for opiates)?????? I'm no expert, but I remember those bits too.
2 seele Says: First he is a muslim terrorist, then Obama is a christian radical, now he his a godless communist.
====================================
I'm still not sure if he's black, or not. Or, do I mean black "enough"? Whatever he is, it's obviously not what America so desperately needs, now is it? (snark)
It's all such a waste of time and money, if one considers Dick Cheney is going to declare martial law anyway.
Appears to be a false comparison. Still, Kristolnacht being wrong is a universal constant.
However, despite being constantly wrong, rest assured that Kristolnacht knows the *best* idealogy. If Marx & Levi Strauss got into a fight, Levi would win easy! Kristol's daddy told him so. So umm.. there. Thats irrefutable.
Kristol has got to be really, really stupid to raise the "opiate of the masses" issue or to talk of eliteism. It's like throwing stones when you live in a glass house. Being that he is a 2nd generation neocon, an alcolyte of Leo Strauss, I would think he'd want to keep his mouth shut. It is a premise among neocons, derived directly from Strauss's twisted spewing that God does not existm and the only purpose of religion is as a "noble myth", a lie invented and maintained for the express purpose of manipulating the masses, the great legions of unwashed useful idiots, and keeping them in their places. To the neocons, religion is nothing but an instrument of control to be wielded by the elites. Of course the neoconshold themselves to be the elites, entitled to rule and use, and do so without any trace of conscience, all others as suits their whims. Incidentally, this is one more reason I will never vote for HRC, since I consider her to be every bit the neocon as is Kristol and crew (notice how she's spewing the neocon party line on this issue and attacking Obama as lustily as are the neocons?).
Kristol is exploiting the tried and true neocon/GOPer tactic of accusing others of possessing or expressing behaviors and qualities which are, in reality, sole attributes of the neocons and the GOPers. And of course nobody is going to challenge him on it.
Whatever may be said about Bill Kristol, of whom I am no fan, it is absolutely contemptible for Andrew Sullivan to call him a "non-Christian." Andrew is welcome to recognize American hypocrisy whenever he thinks he sees it, as far as I am concerned, even though he was not born or raised here.
So, similarly is Bill Kristol entitled to unmask Christian hypocrisy when he thinks he sees it. Barack is no hypocrite Christian (no more so than the rest of us hypocrite Christians, anyway), but the fact that Kristol is a "non-Christian" does not render him unqualified to speak on the subject.
And calling him a non-Christian does not hide the word you avoided, Andrew.
A couple of observations:
1. When a wingnut like Kristol goes after Obama, it just makes me love Obama even more. If the wingnuts hate him so, he must be doing something right.
2. What Kristol fails to acknowledge is that MARX IS RIGHT!!!!!
MacDaKnife @ 99:
A boycott by prominent progressives is not the same as simply ignoring. And those folks wouldn't be boycotting in the first place if so many progressive websites weren't calling attention to the network's daily lies and misinformation, which, for a very long period of time went unchallenged in many regions of the country.
I'm not sure how we can simultaneously be vocal about our objections to people like Kristrol and ignore them.
These liars are very loud. Their megaphones reach millions of viewers. The pernicious side of the right wing got as big and detrimental as it has because of its far-reaching noise machine. It's very organized. It's falling apart now because groups like Media Matters and blogs like C&L have been documenting everything it says, and countering it at every turn. Ignoring it or writing it off as lunacy allowed it to fester and grow.
NoGWBpolicyleftinplace @ 13:
No, it would be more name calling.
Neocons don't need to make sense. Sarcastic diatribes using multi-syllable words are enough for the right to believe something intelligent is happening.
Paul (at 128) hits the nail on the head. Kristol is a card-carrying Straussian. Strauss, like, Marx thought religion was the opium of the people, but unlike him, thought that was a good thing. To Strauss, religion and patriotism were both noble myths, not believed by the philosopher elite, to keep the masses in line. Strauss also thought liberal democracy was the worst form of government, because individual rights lead to anarchy. A Canadian academic, Shadia Drury, has written several critiques of Strauss' supremely cynical philosophy. Too bad that poliltical philosophy is not likely a hot topic for a 60 Minutes expose. These people cannot be dismissed as They have been incredibly successful in labeling liberals as elitist intellectual snobs who have contempt for the masses--when that is exactly what they are.
Gerhard @ 132:
No, it would be the truth! If it's the truth, it would be a descriptive, as opposed to an insult - such as name calling.
Jake @ 11
...Wow. Your parents have no souls. If my parents said that, I'd never speak to them again.
Thanks for reminding me of how brilliant Marx could be Billy. That one quote was more of a contribution to society than all of the blather you have ever produced.
yeh yeh yeh, fine and this is coming out of the mouth of the biggest fascist talking head? WHATEVER!
Login or Register to post comments.