Putting public ignorance in context
By Steve Benen Tuesday May 27, 2008 11:50amI genuinely believed, foolishly, that one of the unintended side benefits of the media’s fascination with Jeremiah Wright is that no one, anywhere, could still possibly believe that Barack Obama is a Muslim. After all, everyone in the country got to see a whole lot of Obama’s Christian pastor and his Christian church. Sure, there are some uninformed people out there, and some willfully ignorant people who simply choose not to accept reality, but generally speaking, it’s hard to imagine more than a handful of voters buying this foolishness.
And yet, the polls have been discouraging. The most recent Newsweek poll found that 11% of the public still thinks Obama is a Muslim. An NYT/CBS poll put the number at 7%. The Pew Forum found 10%.
As disappointing as this is, however, Ben Smith provided some interesting context to public confusion.
One relevant piece of context: Large minorities of Americans consistently say they hold wildly out-of-the-mainstream views, often specifically discredited beliefs. In some cases, those views should make them pretty profoundly alienated from one party or the other.
For instance:
22 percent believe President Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance.
30 percent believe Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.
23 percent believe they’ve been in the presence of a ghost.
18 percent believe the sun revolves around the Earth.
In other words, if about one-in-10 voters buy into the nonsense about Obama, it’s still a reasonably low number, compared to some other widely-held misconceptions.
I’m just not sure, from a political perspective, whether this is reassuring or not.
Ben looked at the numbers and concluded, “Obama may well be elected president with a substantial minority of the citizens despising him and convinced that his beliefs are irreconcilably foreign to theirs. Which, after all, is the current state of affairs. It’s only that the people who believe those things about Bush and the people who believe those things about Obama live in different parts of the country.”
Fair enough. If about 10% of the population believes Obama is a Muslim, and if we’re willing to speculate that the same 10% believe adherence to Islam is somehow a bad thing, the next question is where these misguided people live. If they’re mostly clustered in uncompetitive states that Obama is likely to lose anyway, then the ignorance will likely be without consequence.
If, however, it’s evenly distributed, and about one-in-10 voters everywhere is this confused about Obama’s faith tradition, it’s more likely to have an impact.
Any guesses?
Login or Register to post comments.
7 % isn't bad actually.
think about the reality of the masses, folks.
Yeah, 7% ain't bad at all.
The thing is, that 10% are people who would not be voting for Obama anyway. They're all Republicans.
At the very least Bush knew about the August 6th 2001 Presidential Daily Briefing entitled Osama Bin Laden determined to attack in the United States.
some of them are probably Muslims who would vote for Obama specifically because they thought he was Muslim. If I was an American living in Saudi Arabia and some pasty white guy named "James Dobson" was running for office and claiming to be Muslim, I'd probably assume it was for political expediency too. and then I'd probably vote for him.
these numbers are a wash.
Didn't I read somewhere here yesterday that 10% of Americans think that Martin Sheen in the television series "the West Wing" actually is the president?
And then there's the Americans who cannot find the US on a map of north America.
this kind of self-instilled ignorance is why there
is a creation museum and the 29 per centers.
The numbers are discouraging, but I think the sheeple are starting to come out of theirs comas. When you pay a fortune for gas and food, and are worried about losing your home, you kind of put things into priorties, Who cares about "moral issues" when you can't feed your family?
smear 08
It does not help by the media saying "
Osama"oops no i mean Obama
oh and some highlights "as far as i know" or "well he says he's not"
These people are not voting for Obama because he's half black. They're just using the Muslim thing as an excuse. That much is obvious.
whats the percentage that believe that the government - or criminal elements inside it - carried out 9-11?
I mean, if your going to cite the LIHOP poll.... go all the way...
I have to agree that 7% isn't bad when you consider that 18 percent believe the sun revolves around the Earth. Now that is a scary number!
Unfortunately, 7% does represent progress because I believed that it was as high as 14% just a month ago.
At the same time, I assumed that Wright would put his "muslim" ties to rest too. I mean Obama is still new and still has to introduce himself to the world. Keep in mind that right now, only diehard political junkies are following every blow-by-blow of this race. The average voter won't tune in until after the convention. That means Barack still has to introduce himself.
But I NEVER expect that number to be any lower than 4% or 5% because regardless of the facts, those who don't intend to vote for him will use every excuse imaginable on why they shouldn't even if it does mean creating fiction when the facts are clear. I mean if you did a poll right now asking "Is Hillary Clinton related to Satan?", I guarantee at least 3% of the public will say Yes. It's stupid and it's unfair, but at this point, we know how people think.
OK, so the Earth actually revolves around the Sun.
But the Earth is still flat, right?
Just making sure.
The 9-11 thing is not fair on that list. The view may be out of the "mainstream," but there are quite a few people who believe Bush had foreknowledge. ConstitutionalCommando is right about the Aug. 6 briefing, and there is other evidence out there as well. Overall, the post is right to wonder why on Earth anyone would still believe Obama is a muslim, but the 9-11 thing isn't so fair.
Of COURSE Obama isn't a Muslim.
Martians aren't allowed to be Muslims.
I think the 7% are the elderly folks who sing Bush's praises on C-span. They are truly delusional.
AND AT LEAST ONE SITTING PRESIDENT BELIEVES:
THAT THE SUN REVOLVES AROUND HIM
THAT HE IS IN DIRECT 2-WAY COMMUNICATION WITH GOD
THAT A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO BASTE
THAT HE HAS DONE A GREAT JOB
THAT NONE OF ANYTHING WAS HIS FAULT
....... HEY...STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES
actually... @ 15:
its just a smear attempt. and a poor one at that.
I got proof that he's a dang muslim! Just look at that picture of him with the funny hat and that dress on. Or how's about the fact that he got himself one of them dang ol' Kooran's tattooed on his butt. There's definite proof, I tells ya!
His middle name is Hussein. If that ain't proof enough of his godlessness, then I'm a billy goat.
I know for a fact that he don't wear a flag lapel pin. That's sure-fired muslim islamo-fascism for ya.
You know how I knows all this? The interwebs told me. And so did my pastor.
A lot of those panicked & paranoid anti-Obama emails that were flying around suggested that Wright's church was somehow "secretly Muslim" -- prayed toward the East / Mecca, etc. So convincing that last 7 - 11% will be no easy task.
Besides, as comedian / screenwriter John Rogers has suggested, there's always about a 27% "Crazification Factor" -- the percentage of people who will always put "party identification, personal prejudice, whatever ahead of rational judgement".
http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/10/lunch-discussions-145-crazification...
(And who says ghosts aren't real...?)
none of us are perfect. i, for example don't believe we ever landed on the moon. sorry.
What I don't get is the implication that there would be something wrong if he were in fact a Muslim.
Frankly, I'm surprised that percentage is not higher. Americans are more than fat, sloppy and loud. They're also incredibly stupid. A bunch of whining morons suffering from a severe case of ADD.
To many Americans, history is last week's People magazine.
I just saw a bit of king george speaking at the airforce academy. After Scott Macellan spoke up yesterday I hope there is alot less people listening to him.
There will always be a segment who feel that what they first accepted into their brain should never be challenged or changed. It makes life easier for them and they are happy. When challenged they dig in and won't be moved.
The other end of the spectrum is the same. It's up to those who feel that they are in the middle to not let either end take control of the power that could hurt the whole. Good luck to us all.
Hey!
If you guys are gonna censor the 911 truthers then you shouldnt take potshots. That just aint right!
Just the fact that, after 8 years of failed Republican rule, there are millions of people ready and waiting to vote for McCain makes me think America is quickly heading into the trashheap of history.
Rebel Patriot Says @ 11:
whats the percentage that believe that the government - or criminal elements inside it - carried out 9-11?
I mean, if your going to cite the LIHOP poll…. go all the way…
The poll only represents MINORITY beliefs...
jake1 @ 26:
I don't think anyone is censoring the 9/11 truthers, I just don't think the masses agree. It's a cold hard fact that Obama isn't a Muslim. It's not a cold hard fact that 9/11 was a conspiracy.
The question shouldn' be "Is Obama a Muslim ?", the question should be... "So what ?!"
Obama is running against a REPUBLICAN who has Bush's blood all over his hands and face. It really wont matter if Obama was a Muslim, an athiest or a Martian.
40% of the electorate will not be voting for Obama anyway and I'm certain that the 7% or 10% or 11%'ers are clearly in those 40%.
The Truth Hurts @ 23:
And Rush is their god!
The reason why people don’t believe that the United States could become a Third World nation-state bespeaks of the Bush Cheney Regime’s greatest ally.
Ignorance of economics.
People are always running around where I work saying that Obama is a Muslim. I guess that's what happens when people are to lazy to try to inform themselves. These people hear the middle name Hussein along with Fox News and there all to common Obama/Osama mix-ups and automatically think that he's an Al Queda sleeper agent. It's completely absurd. It's not just by coincidence that these people are all Fox News viewers, anyone who can watch Fox an honestly think that it isn't biased to an extreme measure obviously doesn't have the ability to think logically. There are also some who will come up with any reason that they can to not vote for a black man so they fall back on this Muslim crap.
Ignorance is no excuse for stupidity.
Never underestimate the ability of the common man to prove why he's called that.
CT @ 3:
I don't think that's true. Several months ago I was going past the security desk at my office building and overheard a conversation between two young Latina women and the young African American security officer. They were discussing whether Obama was Muslim and one of them expressed the view that the Constitution specifically prohibited Muslims from becoming President. I barged into the conversation and told them that they were wrong on both points - he wasn't a Muslim and the Constitution explicitly prohibited any type of religious test for any public official including the President. Maybe my words and the subsequent Wright publicity changed their minds but I think there are potential Obama supporters like these people who believe the Muslim story and may be affected by it
I had a friend say he's not voting for him because he's a muslim just the other day. I then preceded to tell him people as stupid as him really should just stay at home on election day and ignore the feelings of guilt and worthlessness for not caring enough to actually make an intellegent and informed vote. I also tell him to stop listening to his dad's decrepid old fart friends too, but he doesn't listen to me on that neither. Maybe one day if I have more money than those decrepid old farts ever had, he will, but with my morals and ideals, it's probably going to have a lot more to do with luck than just setting that as a goal for myself.
Were the people polled from Florida? If they were it means that they've improved. What a hopeless state that state is in.
Richard @ 34:
I agree. I know logical people who believe the Muslim rumor. The reality is that the average person who doesn't actively engage and discuss politics really don't know who Obama is and will believe whatever rumors they hear until the hear otherwise. The right is pushing the Muslim stories hard, it's up to Obama and the left to push the truth even harder.
I just want to point out that once upon a time Saddam DID have weapons of mass destruction (just not at the time of the invasion). The only reason I bring this up is not to quibble but to point out that half the time (made up statistic) polls are so poorly worded that they can't help but come up with bizarre results.
Take the question "did president bush have knowledge of the 9/11 attacks before hand?" well didn't the clinton administration warn them about Al qaeda? doesn't that count as "foreknowledge" even if he didn't know about the specific attack?
People who beleive Obama is a Muslim, either don't read a newspaper or stare at Faux News. They are truly hopeless, and will never sat they were wrong and well stick their fingers in their ears to deny the truth. I should know, my Mother is one of them.
I received an email the other day claiming that Obama was a Muslim and had joined Jeremiah Wright's church all those years ago as a coverup, because he planned to run for public office someday.
Some people have an answer for everything.
Haulin' Oates @ 21:
I'm with you on that one, Oatie
In this day and age, if we as a nation aren't smart enough to rid ourselves from the consumption of fossil fuels, then we didn't go to the moon either.
Hmm, I wonder what percentage of those folks, adhere to several, or all, of those beliefs?
Stupid people are louder than smart people.
This country has lost the plot completely. Look at the recent news of Dunkin' Donuts pulling an advert because Michelle Malkin and other loonies complained that the scarf Rachel Ray is wearing AROUND HER NECK in the advert looks too much like a middle-eastern type head scarf. WTF?? Anyways, it's painfully obvious that any situatio that has more then two facets to it is way too complicated for the average SUV driving, cheap beer drinking, christian lobotomized american to get their pea brain around so they'll gladly take any loud person's opinions as 'fact' or 'news'. Quite sad, but I grew up in a golden age, have no children, so have no vested interest in the future of this country anymore. Don't get me wrong, I still believe America was once the greatest country in the world but until we get past that antiquated notion and accept we got some problems that need mending, we may as well start brushing up on our Mandarin now. Amazingly we are regressing as a country while alot of other places like Eastern Europe are slowly surpassing us as far as economy, quality of living, etc, etc. oh well.
And, I have written off all the Red States. I just can't understand why the vote for these guys over and over again. I mean how often can you be played for fools?
Don't think this is much. I doubt any person that gives a shit thinks Obama is a Muslim. There are plenty of wingers that WANT to believe that and express it as a belief..but no one of any count ever believed it.
When communists were the enemy of the day the wingers labeled Democrats communists. When it was terrorists the wingers labeled Democrats "with the terrorists". Now its Muslims that are the boogy men and low and behold. There is nothing new here, just same ole same ole Winger paranoia.
Hey Steve: I hope when YOU become a ghost that you stand there hollering for someone to acknowledge you and they refuse to believe you exist.
(#1) 22 percent believe President Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance.
-- only 22% are aware of the August 6th briefing? that sux ..
-- so 22% got this one right.
(#2) 30 percent believe Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.
-- yes he HAD them (past tense) - the US, Britain & France sold them to him.
-- so 30% got this right.
(#3) 23 percent believe they’ve been in the presence of a ghost.
-- no comment.
(#4) 18 percent believe the sun revolves around the Earth.
-- actually the Sun & the Earth revolve around a common center; neither revolves around the other. Anyone who thinks the Earth revolves around the Sun is wrong too.
Do these people still beleive the Earth is flat? Jeez!
This weekend I was at a restaurant with some friends, and the 20-year-old waitress started chatting with us (it was a slow night...). She's politically "engaged" enough to be up on her conspiracy theories about 9/11 but was worried because she's heard that Obama is a terrorist. She says that when she listens to him talk he doesn't seem like a terrorist. I assured her that he's not.
This is a young woman from a lower-income family who's attending a university and working full time. She's indicative of many people who just aren't able to spend the time reading the news or keeping up with blogs. She's an example of why I don't like to pigeonhole people as being dumb just because they're uninformed or misinformed. Certainly there are those people out there, but it's a base of people like her that need to be taken seriously and brought in to being engaged in the real issues that affect their lives. I did what I could to make a case for her voting, but I think she feels like it wouldn't matter.
Compare this to the woman on the video clip I saw from West Virginia who is aware that Obama SAYS he's a Christian, but she knows he's lying. Some people just can't accept anything beyond their prejudices.
The greatest irony of all will be when we retire the word 'irony' from the English language because nobody knows what it means anymore.
Peoples lives are changed and sometimes destroyed by other peoples ignorance.
This story enrages me:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_he_me/formaldehyde_in_trailers_7
If you think about it... 22 percent of people thinking that Bush knew about 9-11 is pretty big.
Considering at least another 33% are that 33% you have heard about for 8 years that think he shits gold (which is now down to like 23%?) and would never in a million years even entertain the notion.
Another 20 percent at least are people who are probably on the fence but don't want to really admit it.
And the final 30 percent are people who don't give a shit one way or the other about politics and couldn't even tell you when 9-11 happened.
SO really, if you consider that 60 percent of people are ignorant (as in ignoring theory or information, not just dumb), and 20 percent are on the fence, and 20 percent believe it so... it's a pretty big number.
Me? I don't think he personally knew shit. Which makes him the perfect president for the crime. Everyone around him knew everything. And if you don't think so, then you are a bigger conspiracy theorist than me.
Have to say that polls, such as the examples shown, are always suspect. People who say that Obama is a Muslim may not believe that at all. They may either be trying to perpetuate what they know is false or may simply be screwing with the pollsters. I know I do that if they annoy me at a particularly inappropriate time. Given the nature of the polls and the confidence intervals on the data I wouldn't be too ready to condemn people out of hand.
I'm really glad you brought this up.
I know I have said as much before but my husband's family are adamant in their belief that Obama is a 'secret' muslim. That's how they always say it. So even though we did our best to show them the facts of the matter on our last visit, they absolutely refuse to accept it. It doesn't matter that he says he's not and that he's christian. They know he's a secret muslim.
These folks are bible belt xians who think the bible is mostly true and some of the scarier ones like to think the 'left behind' series is prophetic.
They also get a lot of those forwarded emails from anonymous "concerned citizens", warning them of the horrors of the hidden Obama agenda.
He's apparently going to enslave the south in revenge for the past and will make the US atheist and/or socialist and/or hand it over to terrorists or something like that. You know, whatever they could come up with.
I know they get this stuff regularly because they forward it to everyone they know and I'm on that list. No matter how often I ask them to stop sending me xian tracts and racism thinly disguised as humor.
So not only do they receive and read this crap without a single question about where it comes from or what the actual facts of the matter are, they're also mindlessly helping to spread it.
It really is frightening to realize how ignorant some people are but it is more frightening when you realize how deliberately ignorant they are.
leftminded @ 42:
after I saw Sibrels documentary - I changed my opinion on that as well. low earth orbit. only
This is a stupid nation. But the so called intellectuals profit from that stupidity. Instead of throwing the criminally dumb a life line, we give them "Lost", "American Idol", The Next Super Model", TMZ, etc. Educated people would certainly make the Politicians, MSM, work much harder.
How many know the correct answer but deliberately answer the questions incorrectly?
Jennifer @ 10:
I thought he was raised by the white side of his family (white mother, white grandparents). His father added some color to his skin and not much else.
With that background , where do they come up with "he's half black". I find that the black part doesn't add up to half.
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
About 9/11: I find it curious that folks who don't believe a word out of Bush's mouth accept everything he and his representatives claim about the attacks in NYC.
You know this country would have a lot less problems if we stopped giving truck loads of money to untalented, drug addicted celebrities to parade around on TV just how easy they have it. If we took all that money we blow on those morons and gave it to the working poor to pay for healthcare, now that would be an accomplishment. I mean, has anyone here ever seen The Kardashians (how ever the frack it's spelled)? It's a bunch of pill popping zombies walking around being complete fracking idiots. This is what a large segment of the American public find entertaining? Turn of the god damn TV America.
If you want to make any headway in clearing up the error in some people's minds about Obama, you must say, "Obama is a professed Christian" or something like that. You must not repeat what he is not. Studies have shown this only reinforces the mistake. (See? It's easy. I didn't say what he is not. Just do it. Thank you.)
Some people think dinosaurs didn't exist because there weren't any in the Bible, others said they did and Leviathan was one.
Then they believe mankind and dinosaurs lived at the same time, primarily because of some goober in Grapevine TX who's an amateur archeologist, who pisses off the real ones because he disturbs sites with his digging.
His "museum" of creationism looked like it was cobbled together in his garage.
If less than 30% of eligible voters actually cast their votes then 7% is a big number! Wake up your neighbors and get out the vote!
What if they believe Obama is a Muslim, but also think that's the bearded man living in Afghanistan?
ysbaddaden @ 62:
AND at 60,000 square feet it is smaller than most WalMarts!
Jake S. @ 36:
Smart friend. You hang with a great crew. He probably has a couple of kids, so he can pass on his stupidity to the next generation.
My friend's father, a retired dentist and WWII veteran with too much time on his hands and sick-to-death-of-paying-insane-Nassau-County-taxes-and-hence-Republican-activist, is not the least bit uncomfortable falling back on the old "that we know of" advisory when responding to the point that Obama is clearly not a Muslim.
A reminder that, sadly, it's not just uninformed mouthbreathers in Appalachia or southern panhandles, but also people who are smart enough and with access to information enough to know better.
Which means for many, it is a choice, close enough to deliberate that it can't be dismissed as merely an involuntary reflex hardcoded from generations of ignorance. It's a choice to pick the low road. Isn't it a pity?
MountainMan23 @ 48:
oops .. left out the kicker ..
In the runup to the Invasion Of Iraq national polls showed something like 76% of Americans supporting the War On Iraq.
At the same time a national poll revealed that only 24% of American High School Graduates could FIND IRAQ ON A MAP.
(Put that into this foolish "only a minority of Americans" think something poll!)
Interestingly, if you add the 24% to the 76% it makes 100%.
So I wondered: "Could it be that the few of us who know enough about THE WORLD to be able to FIND IRAQ ON A MAP also have the sense to realize what a stupid mistake it would be to invade?"
Jake S. @ 60:
Way too late....the genie is already out of that bottle. I'll say it again, the time is coming very soon when this country collapses under the weight of its own stupidity. The days of a single global superpower are just about over....and that's probably a good thing.
Jennifer @ 10:
Muslim=black, illegal immigrant or illegal = Mexican/Puerto Rican/Cuban
It's strange that they're smart enough to use euphemisms.
The Truth Hurts, Ouch! But, so very true.
ysbaddaden @ 62:
I bet he sells trucker hats ("I break for Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego") and beef jerky (Jesus jerky?) .
brake
Those who don't like Obama because he is half black better get used to the idea that the world is getting darker. Only the most rabid white racists will survive as 'white'. Any other combination - the vast majority - will eventually darken the population to some degree.
Reply to #66 The Truth Hurt
He's not hopelessly stupid, but like everyone says here, just willfully ignorant. He doesn't care to follow politics, and that's his right, but I just tried to tell him that if he doens't care enough to actually research and make an informed vote, then he should just stay home, because when you vote with your gut, who for who you think is a swell guy, then you get a f*cking chimp for a president.
Hey, I just spent a long weekend with my sister-in-law. She still absolutely believes that Saddam was behind 9/11 -- even when told that Bush himself has denied it.
Well, maybe people this time won't elect an idiot they want to have a beer with. Wasn't that Bush's motto?
The 30 percent that still believe Saddam had WMD's is really troubling.
The propaganda/hate machine that the drooling wingnuts cherish and at the same time call the liberal media is working very well for the corporatists. The USA number one in ignorance!
OK, but how many of these marginal, willfully ignorant folks actually vote?
This poll would be more useful if it had also asked how may of them have bothered to register. I'd say few of them have done so. Hope not, anyway.
StirFry @ 71:
What are you tryin ta say dere, wokman...yer Confucian me. Buddhist ok. I guess we know where U cummin from. ROK on, dude.
;-}
Haulin' Oates is right (#22)! When it comes to things I believe (or not) - well, then, I don't really believe that there is any such place as Texas. I've never seen it myself, and nobody I know has ever claimed to be from there. I think it's just some sort of weird joke. Anyway, if you're going to get all exercised about the number of people who are capable of believing the most outlandish things, often while disbelieving provable, demonstrable, factual things, then you'll be in good company. I suspect that the invention of language was simply so some simian ancestor of ours could say to his friend "What in tarnation is that fool smoking?" or words to that effect.
ronhohn @ 75:
Some rabid white racists have names like Martinez
bill DOH @ 57:
When Halle Berry won an academy award in 2001, she was hailed as the "first African American" woman to win such an award. Some people then claimed that she, like Tiger Woods, wasn't totally black(a way for some to strip the "black" credit away). Trust me, if you're even a touch black, you're black in this nation. Just ask any biracial person who's been profiled by the cops, or followed in a retail store, caught a cab in the city.
SJD @ 60:
strange, isn't it.
absolutely unwilling to consider the possibility.
I can understand you not believing in ghosts because you haven't been in the presence of one, but just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean they don't exist. Plus there are many other energetic experiences, such as being a Reiki, that help us to realize there is a lot more going on than what meets the eye. How about a little open-mindedness?
Vic @ 80:
Actually those 30% of us may remember that WE sold the WMD to him so he could fight Iran, who GHWBush met with in Paris and set up the IranContra triangle! Saw Ollie North talking about ethics on Fox! Iran Contra Ollie of all people!
Proud2bHumble Hus(in)sein Whitenbitter Lee Assassinine Ann Wrightly Soe @ 82:
I doh'nt no
should have read "such as Reiki"
SJD @ 60:
I've been dumbfounded by this for years.
StirFry @ 89:
DOH!!
LOL
;-}
BobD @ 88:
Yep, let us never forget the photo of Rummy shaking hands with Saddam. The reality is after the first gulf war Saddam didn't have many of those WMD's left, like the ones he used to kill the Kurds by the thousands, and the UN inspections that Dumbya wanted halted had big results. Why don't you get ahold of Scott Ritter and tell him all about those WMD's! He will explain how they were destroyed well before Dumbya took/stole the Presidency.
BeeSting @ 91:
My guess is that is irrevocably alters their perception of this government that they have completely bought into.
The social contract is null and void when the state is a predator upon its own people.
Acting against the state in this circumstance is required - or withdrawing into hopeful obscurity where the state will not notice you and act against you (like trying to get to th center of the herd in grazing animals.)
Dave @ 90:
One must balance one's subjective/objective yinyang or suffer the excruciating embarrassment of being Reiki'd over the Karmic (firewalking)Coals, grasshoppah...
;-}
P.D. @ 49:
I't not?
;)
Rebel Patriot @ 94:
The 'state' is an illusory faceless front tool of the plutocracy.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives."
-John Stuart Mill
StirFry @ 73:
You'd have to raise the robe first.
bill DOH @ 96:
The confusion lies in that it's flat and round (like a pancake).
;-}
Proud2bHumble Hus(in)sein Whitenbitter Lee Assassinine Ann Wrightly Soe @ 97:
perhaps - but that illusory tool is very powerful - and more importantly - very convincing in its propaganda.
2B, you are the Punisher.
Look, I don't know if Bush knew about 9-11 in advance or not. What I DO know is that two planes hit and three buildings went down. They went straight down. Even watching it as it happened, I could not believe they would fall STRAIGHT down. I still don't know how building seven went down. I still don't know what happened that day because the 9-11 commission was not given all the info they needed. So, if having these and other doubts about what our administration knew, their motives, and their actions puts me "out of the mainstream", so be it. I'm fine with that.
Actually that idiotic Creationism museum is in Glen Rose TX.
ysbaddaden @ 99:
...after you lowered the bar, if you want the divine baptism...
;-}
ysbaddaden @ 99:
I think you're referring to the Grapevine Jesus Kippered Sausage
Rebel Patriot @ 101:
As long as the smokescreen's working, the plutocraps feel untouchable. They need to be touched...
;-}
ysbaddaden @ 104:
there's one also in the Cincinnati area - on the Kentucky side I believe.
actually... @ 15:
And didn't Israel warn that something big was afoot?
I think they had an idea that something was probably going to happen. I don't think they knew the format or the location, and they probably imagined it taking place on an overseas US target, a la Beruit '83.
I don't think Bush would allow an attack on the US financial center. I don't think Bush Sr. would have been anywhere DC had he known airplanes would be crashed nearby.
73 StirFry Says
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego
I always thought it was Shadrach, Meshach, and Meshuggina.
StirFry @ 102:
Shhhh, it's a secret.
Bill @ 103:
but...but...but...
Popular Mechanics says the government version (a legitimate suspect) is the one we are supposed to blindly believe.
Haulin' Oates @ 22:
Everyone gets one crazy theory. That one's mine, also.
Rebel Patriot @ 108:
There is, when I was online double-checking the site of the Texan one, I saw there was one in Kentucky, supposedly fairly sophisticated, but the site was a trash the liberals site. One sentence would be how "liberals" were upset that the Kentucky museum might upset kids grasp of science, and then somehow morphed into that portrait of Mary with elephant dung in the next sentence.
That's some bad electricity sparking up there. National fluoride program has irrevocably changed minds and bodies.
Charles @ 109:
Yep.
Message at the bar for ya...
;-}
If you want the biggest example of large numbers of Americans believing crazy stuff, how about this: The majority of Americans believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, as well as the fact that he rose from the grave three days after he was executed. Talk about your nutjobs...
MountainMan23 @ 48:
Good ones! As to (#3), those must be the people who've seen Michael Hayden (CIA Head) on tv. Aside from being chief spook, he looks like Casper - no not Weinberger (who's dead) - but the cartoon ghost.
Proud2bHumble Hus(in)sein Whitenbitter Lee Assassinine Ann Wrightly Soe @ 111:
I was thinking more like this punisher.
Charles @ 109:
he wasnt george bush sr was in ny visiting the bin ladden family on 911!
You mean he's not a Hari Chrishna?
I guess we all learn something new every day.
22 percent believe President Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance.
30 percent believe Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.
23 percent believe they’ve been in the presence of a ghost.
18 percent believe the sun revolves around the Earth.
But, did the study find how many of these jackballs were registered voters?
OT::
I love the way the Whitehouse is trying to paint Scott McClellan as if he has lost his marbles.
This from the BBC:
Of course it's not the Scott they knew, This one decided to tell the truth and clear his conscience. They know the cover is off, so you can count on a lot of truthyness coming soon.
I so thoroughly agree with the 9.11 truth issue not being in the same category at all. I have yet to see any credible debunking of the hundreds, maybe thousands of details that are wrong, protocol that they went wonky on, Cheney, etc. IT's just legion.
I have yet to understand why so many mainstream pundits and people don't even entertain the issue with the same level of disgust as one must explain to a teenager why the Confederate flag is more than a cultural icon.
Other than Popular Mechanics feeble one horse cart of a rejoinder, can anyone point me to an exhaustive explanation of what happened that day and the many before and after it. I'm open to the truth, but I've spent a lot of time on this, and the issue is hurt by having all the other grand conspiracy theorists out in force for this one. I assure you however, many are reputable people putting their professional reputations on the line for an unpopular line of questioning.
It's that the questions are too widespread, the failures too many to have been chance, and an administration that is certainly capable of hideous brutality on a scale that doesn't seem to ruffle their eyebrows at all. And. And. And, they haven't gotten away with it because they fucked up too often on too many things to have people looking to closely.
jim schmidt @ 118:
Although it's a big if if he existed at all, he could've rose again.
The Jews of the time used some form of mandrake wine/vinegar. It acted as a painkiller, and was offered on sponges to those who've been crucified. Sometimes it could cause catalepsy, an appearance like death, when the body would then be brought down and the victim revive later. That's why the Romans took up the habit of breaking the legs of the crucified dead, although that's been taught as being because of superstitious dread. In Matthew 27:34, Mark 15:23 and John 19:29-30, Jesus dranks some kind of wine-vinegar, but it's usually taught as the Jews mocking Jesus when he cried out in thirst.
jim schmidt @ 118:
Ok, I will. If he pulled a three day disappearing act nowadays, he very well could have been convalescing from a testicular implant and/or sacklift...but given the times he lived in, I think his
propagandistsdisciples probably exaggerated just a little...i believe in ghosts. every time i walk into my house the ghosts scatter and SLAM all the doors shut. i ALWAYS miss them by like half a second.
As a professional firefighter in a big city for over 22 years, which I am, I can assure you that the only reason that 343 firefighters died on 911 is because the deck was stacked. Don't get me wrong, Firefighters are brave Men and Women, but they are not suicidal.
There were undoubtedly some new (green) firefighters on that fateful day. They undoubtedly followed the seasoned Firefighters (including Chiefs) into those buildings. As with any other profession? You tend to trust those who went before you. Those who are showing you the ropes.
By the grace of God I was not there on 911. I would have went into those buildings with the full confidence they would not collapse.
If, for a moment, I foresaw an imminent collapse? I would not have allowed any Firefighter into those buildings. Full logic would have dictated that those around the buildings be saved. Expand the perimeter. How many of the people you saw running from the collapse could have been evacuated prior to collapse? It was after all, 1 hour before the first collapse. Think you could have cleared the scene in an hour?
Not one of those Firefighters, including bosses, thought the buildings were coming down.
Want further evidence?
The person in charge of a fire crew is a Lieutenant or a Captain. YOU NEVER, I repeat! NEVER! expose your fire truck to damage. (We call them "apparatus"). If you did? You had better have stopped the death of at least one baby, and that may not save your ass. The powers that be could give you 96 reasons how you could have saved the baby without losing a truck.
How many "fire trucks" were destroyed because they were too close?
Did those officers throw abandon to the wind? Not likely.
Some of the best Firefighters in the world did not know that Silverstein and Bush and Cheney and Netanyahu of Israel and most of all David Rockefeller were blowing up the buildings.
Nice hangin witchyall...
Hittin’ the road, Jack,”and I ain’t comin’ back no more no more no more no more”…
“Last word, freak.” - Melvin Udall
out
;-}
just john @ 16:
Hoho...you almost made a funny.
Pooche @ 131:
good post. I hope it, among others, is not deleted.
I've read all of the above posts and I couldn't stop thinking that many of you don't care what the polls say you just want to gripe and complain, and demean other people. The words that are used; stupid, ignorant, mouthbreathers from Appalachia???;
what is the desired effect here? If you truly want to discuss the polls discuss them but leave the name calling and demeaning out of it. When you use these types of terms along with profanity you are just showing your own lack of terminology and you loose any chance to move your ideas forward.
How many 'murkins think the earth is 6,000 years old?
How many 'murkins don't believe in evolution?
How many 'murkins think Busholini is honorable?
The list of such questions is endless in the numbnuts nation known as the USA!
You cant really compare
22 percent believe President Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance.
with
18 percent believe the sun revolves around the Earth.
I really dont think that believing our current administration (which has demonstrated it will lie, go to war and imprison people to maintain its power) may have had advance knowledge of an attack that they knew would benefit them politically thus not taken all the steps they could have to prevent it.....
fits in the same category as still believing something that was debunked by scientists 400 years ago. That kind of ignorance is just a half-step above still believing the earth is flat.
I think it's messed up that you lump people who question the official story of 9-11 along with people who, for example, believe that the sun revolves around the Earth!
This tactic of mocking those who seek the TRUTH about 9-11 is a cheap way of devaluing any further investigation when all one has to do is scratch the surface and the “official story” crumbles. In fact, the “official story” of 9-11 is the only conspiracy theory that’s hard to swallow.
I don’t want to go into every piece of evidence here point by point… there are plenty of movies and websites out there (like the great documentary “9/11 Press For Truth”)…
So I really hope you’re not asking me to believe that the Bush Crime Family lies about everything EXCEPT the one event that they use to hang all their criminal policies on?
I understand the reluctance to swallow the truth. I know that it's hard to believe that our government would be so evil, but you need to be realistic as to what we are dealing with. Gulf of Tonkin, Operation Northwoods... the government has lied and does lie to further political agendas.
The Bush Crime Family had their "Project for a New American Century" plan all mapped out years before they stole the first election. They had all their players in place including Wolfowitz, Libby, Perle, Bolton, Cheney, Rumsfeld...and more… do you really think that they would sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for their “new Pearl Harbor?” Or do you think they would MAKE it happen while they have their pieces in place?
C'mon – we should encourage the search for truth, not vilify the truth seekers.
To return to the original question, would the 10% that believe Obama is a muslim affect the general election if spread equally in each state rather than sequestered in states that were not competitive (Texas, New York, etc.).
I propose it wouldn't matter if all 10% Obama-is-a-muslim believers were in a swing state it wouldn't matter. This population are not swing voters, the same way the 28% that believe Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks were not swing voters 2004 (though not all of them voted for Kerry) and had already made their minds on not voting for Bush. Their ignorance doesn't directly affect the out come of the election large part because the motivation of the voter doesn't matter. A vote from a well educated and well reasoned citizen is as valued as someone who bases their decision on who to vote for on what their dog told them.
The other reason why the Obama-is-a-muslim believers, the tin-hat wearing community, and the Bush masterminded 9/11 cabal do not effect the out come the election is because they do not vote and oftern are unregistered to vote.
I hear the KKK started as a group of drunken college kids playing a prank on newly freed slaves, by playing ghosts. It worked, they got the reputation for being the spriits of recently slain Confederate soldiers.
Sounds like the kind of crowd boosh would've hung out with at school.
You mean 78% of the people in America think that the Twin Towers fell into their own footprints and Tower seven just like the "London Bridge" came falling down? Really?
Like physics don't matter?
Kareen @ 135:
Ignorance in a vacuum is cute and forgivable. Willfull ignorance in the real world however is one of the key causes of much of the pain and suffering humans face.
Particularly in our country over the last eight years... ignorance has reigned and we have suffered greatly for it. So its no surprise that people arent so forgiving anymore....
"22 percent believe President Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance."
Don't think this should have been associated via the phrase: "wildly outside the mainstream" when polls have shown that Americans, in much higher %, nearing half, believe the gov't was complicit in allowing the events to unfold with success and in ensuring that success.
IT still seems a dirty phrase to actually discuss that fact openly, as if it's something, '..one does not discuss in polite company..."
“Obama may well be elected president with a substantial minority of the citizens despising him and convinced that his beliefs are irreconcilably foreign to theirs."
Could anyone speculate how this would differ from a country in which a substantial majority of the citizens despise the President and are convinced that his beliefs are irreconcilably foreign to theirs? After all, we've gotten a good deal of experience with that situation lately.
So 18% still believe that the sun revolves around the Earth? Is that more of that "Scientific Theory", like gravity? In what Red states were these surveys taken?
re: 18 percent believe the sun revolves around the Earth
pardon a colorful metaphor but, .... that is fucking unbelievable, .. along with the ID'ers, Creationists and other loonies running around, I am getting out my bottle of bourbon and putting on some Miles & Trane.
"18 percent believe the sun revolves around the Earth."
try 9% were screwing around with the poll and 9% misunderstood the question.
Does anyone else remember the poll they took in england and just how many people according to the poll believed that the events in LOTR were historical?
Steve D @ 21:
Those of us with with a minimum of half a brain.
smittypap @ 147:
The voice of the lobotomized.
Actually one of the things that blew Phaedo for me in Five Great Dialogues by Plato, was in a very good and logical build-up to the belief in the soul and it's immortality, Socrates included anecdotal, hear-say evidence of ghosts haunting cemeteries, because they long for this world, and not the one of philosophy.
Geoff @ 148:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN4BGzYYmAg
Login or Register to post comments.