Obama 1, Dobson 0
As John wrote about earlier, James Dobson attacked Barack Obama Tuesday for what he called his "confused theology." Leaving aside the obvious projection on Dobson's part, today really marked the beginning of a rather dramatic shift in traditional American politics. Think about it: Not only is Barack Obama aggressively courting the evangelical base, he is currently involved in a dispute over theology and public policy with James Dobson. And he's winning. After Dobson trashed Obama for "distorting the Bible," Obama put out this statement, which pretty much sums up why Dobson and his ilk are a cancer on the American political process:
[That speech that Dobson criticized urged that] people of faith, like himself, "try to translate some of our concerns in a universal language so that we can have an open and vigorous debate rather than having religion divide us."
Obama is trying to introduce a new kind of "faith-based" participation in politics, one that seeks to unite people of faith around a common goal, rather than driving them apart with divisive wedge issues. I think it's pretty obvious which of the two is more healthy and productive.
What's more, Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwel, a Methodist pastor from Texas and longtime supporter of President Bush who has endorsed Obama, has actually started a website bashing Dobson and proclaiming he "doesn't speak for me."
In what can be considered the best news of all, John McCain faces a big uphill climb when it comes to earning the support of the evangelical Republican base -- the same coalition that helped propel George W. Bush to two terms. McCain is trying to play the "strong conservative" and "maverick" cards at the same time, apparently not realizing that they end up canceling each other out. Robert Novak (of all people) writes extensively about this in a column called "McCain's Evangelical Problem." Senator McCain may be a "straight-shooter" who appeals to independents, but he's also a Republican who can't lock down his own base.
Lordy, lordy not a Frister in sight
Amazing how much effect Religion has in American Politics.
I don't give 2 hot sh*ts about what "Evangelicals" think. As if the future of the world rests on listening to these intolerant freaks!
Funny how religious tenets as interpreted by the televangelists violate all the actual teachings of the church. Americans are learning how much they've been lied to and misled. see http://cabdrollery.blogspot.com/2008/06/dawn-of-reason-has-broken-for-su...
AquaVelvaMan @ 3:
There are millions more evangelicals in Africa than there are here. I have some bad news: They generally think the ones who reside in America are too left leaning.
"Maverick", an old beater in the 70's that Ford slapped together
So much for no religious test to gain office...
Frankly I don't think religion should be part of the public political debate. It sickens me that Democrats are now going down this same damn road.
Separation of church and state 0, Theocratists 1
xoites defends Constitution @ 5:
Damn!
Growing list of words I would like to send on the first rocket to the sun (with all due respect to Silent):
flip flop
bashing
metric (as used by Pat Buchanan and others)
libs
...more to come as they occur to me...
;)
I'm with Beelzebud @ 7!!! This whole pandering to religion to get into office is disgusting.
AquaVelvaMan @ 3:
There are a lot more people of faith than there are rabid right wing evangelicals. In the past the MSM and rethugs did a good job of convincing these people to throw in with them even when doing so was against their own best interests. Obama stands a good chance of appealing to these voters. I think that's what's behind his movement to the center of late.
Dobson personifies an aspect of religion that needs to fuck desperately off.
This is very smart of Obama. Why didn't the democrats think of it sooner? If you show disrespect and don't bother courting the vote, you don't get it. All you have to do is not make yourself repulsive to them and you have a shot at their vote. The same can be said of the stupid Terry McAuliffe strategy of only focusing on certain states and ignoring others. If you don't go after someone's vote, if you don't at least pay them lip service and show that you WANT their vote, you ain't gonna get it.
Terrible @ 10:
Perhaps that is why our country is not really a DemocracyThe candidates pander to not only evangelicals,but alsothe mitary industrial complex,
All theology is bullshit. There's no sky daddy. So Dobson et al are all bilking the ignorant. Really works TOO!
sully18 @ 14:
TO FINISH: We pander to the military industrial complex,Big Pharma,Big Meat,Bigger Oil,and on and on....
I don't see it as pandering, it's more like acknowledging where we come from. I think Obama is just being honest in regards to his view of the Bible and simply let the chips lay where they fall.
To me theology is just the next step up from mythology. It's a natural progression that we need to take as human beings.
Euro 2008:
Spain to play Germany at the final sunday
PS: screw obama and dobson ................
I'm tired of US politics: you give democratie a bad name, teens can do beter than this shit i'v seen this year
Phylter @ 15:
Obama isn't ignorant.
With all the baggage from Obamas church, I don't think he's going to win any evangelicals over. Let's see him get Dobson and Wright on t.v. together to talk religion in America.
I think Dobson might be a bit confused about exactly whose theology is confused, here.
Dobson is an easy mark this campaign season--guys like him, Limbaugh, and Hannity are scrambling to get any headlines they can as the "conservative" movement circles the drain desperate to be relevant. Clearly, the GOP have NOTHING for America and their wedge issues are not getting any traction.
This is exactly what needs to happen. Rather than duck and hide from religious attacks on the democratic party, spin it around and marginalize the attackers expose them for the zealots they are. A kind of religous debate akido if you will...
Sorry, more specific link....http://www.tagg-lines.com/2008/06/james-dobson-amateur-god-expert.html
baby jesus is going to put Obama in the White House.
The Dobson's of the world keep me away from religion and churches!
CD @ 18:
well said
I think Obama is setting a stage for when Roe v. Wade is overturned by the Supremes and then each state decides its stance on abortion.
Adam Franklin @ 22:
Precisely. I don't think Obama is pandering here. He's appealing to the saner majority now that they've begun to understand just how the right wing zealots and dollars for jeebus televangelists have been playing them for saps. He's taking something that has been a position of strength for the repigs and turned it against them. You've got to love the irony there. The guy (or gal) who came up with this strategy is the anti rove.
xoites defends Constitution @ 5:
And Africa is such a better place because of this!
Floridiot @ 6:
'70's Ford Maverick: Gas-guzzling V8 wedged into rust-prone body, 4-wheel drum brakes prone to severe fading, and an archaic "3-on-the-tree" column-shift clunky transmission--seems to describe McCane perfectly.
I don't see this thread as an improvement over the Obama flips on FISA ones. There we see him and other Dems selling out the Constitution. This thread is about Obama sucking up to the religious crazies.
Yes, religious folk on the left are not by-and-large the hateful bigots you'll find on the Religious Right, but religion in politics is a bad mix and we've seen too much of it in recent years. Where are those of us who believe in government as a secular institution to go?
Religion has no place in politics.
For a candidate who is supposed to do things differently, Sen Obama sure is playing the game just like the rest of them.
they're all tax dodgers!
abarts @ 33:
Since the day The Declaration of Independence was signed there has been a place for religion in politics.
True it is not right for congressmen to scream "pass this law my religion says so!!!" but religion has always had a place of respect.
McCain also has issues with the religous right because his wife is in the business of selling booze. The LA Times did a good article on the issue. http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-hensley22-2008jun22,0,3931241,full.story
Patriot: You said that "Obama is trying to introduce a new kind of “faith-based” participation in politics, one that seeks to unite people of faith around a common goal..."
I don't believe it.
Obama is wrapping himself in religion the same way he wraps himself in the flag when it suits his purpose.
He is appealing to evangelicals for their votes.
What is the "common goal" that you think Obama is trying to unite people of faith around?
It ain't ending the war in Iraq.
It ain't single payer health care.
It ain't undoing the havoc meted upon our civil liberties by the patriot act.
It sure ain't reconstructing the historic American concept of the separation of Church and State.
Even in Texas, Methodists can be cool.
(Just kidding, I was raised Methodist and make jokes about Texas 'cause I lived there for years.)
Anywho, pandering or not (and I think not), I believe we can pretty much all agree that James Dobson doesn't speak for us.
If you don't think he does, I'd say sign the petition from the "doesn't speak for me" link in the post. Hell, why not?
[Deleted. Off topic. Site Monitor]
Well its not hard to win a theological debate with Dobson if you're sane and rational... and I have a feeling that Obama has a better understanding of the Bible than Dobson ever dreamed of. Sorta like shooting fish in a barrel.
I can see the wisdom in the strategy and as I've been saying on these threads for months now, there is a split coming among evangelicals and you're going to see many of them heading to the center. Obama is smart to campaign to these people because now is the time. As another poster commented above, he's not going to get their votes unless he asks for them. I can't fault that. And maybe Obama is right about having dialogue so those of different faiths can work together for the same goals (and I'm assuming that is the common good for all peoples in our country).
All that said, I'm still disturbed at how often religion comes up in this campaign and I think we'll hear lots more before November. I'm still waiting to hear about the issues. Y'all remember those? The war, the economy, the fact that we've tortured prisoners at Gitmo, fuel speculators? Stuff like that? I'm not hearing as much about the issues as I would like and it is making me uncomfortable.
I hope to hell that a lot of this is pure politics, and after the election religion gets shuttled back to the churches where it belongs, only this time for good. The mere thought that my tax dollars are used to offset the tax-exemption of religious organizations is repulsive. What is the modern justification for this exemption? If people of faith need a monetary incentive to simply honor the Golden Rule then they are far weaker morally than the atheists they publicly deride.
I'm willing to give a pass to Obama's dancing for the sake of getting elected in this ravaged political environment (Thanks, Karl), but if he starts talking up more 'faith-based' programs then that will be a big problem.
Is it just me, but is Dobson starting to look like Falwell now? Geeze, what is it with these guys that they either get fat and/or look like their tailors, hairdressers and makeup artists all work at funeral homes???
You have to tip your hat to Dobson though: When he talks about distorted, confused, and dangerous theologies, he's an expert. How much did Christ say about homosexuality? Abortion? Drinking? Yeah. Kind of reminds me of the old joke: Why don't Baptists have sex standing up? It might lead to dancing. What a @#$%^&* up set of priorities... As bad as their Wahabbist counterparts in Saudi Arabia. Same $#!+, different name for God.
Duncan @ 41:
I'd like to see religion out of the campaigns and back in the private lives of individuals, where it belongs. Thank the repubs for setting the stage for this mess. As for the "faith-based" programs, whose faith do you base them on? And that is why we're supposed to have a separation of church and state which seems to be eroding more each election cycle.
Just image someone running for office who confesses that he doesn't believe in fairy tales.
ronhohn @ 44:
"confesses"? "fairy tales"?
You're not helping Obama by writing that sort of thing.
I like the part where Dobson criticizes Obama, a former professor of Constitutional Law , on his interpretation of the US Constitution!!!
Organized religions are fairy tales, plain and simple. Religion brainwashes people starting at birth, and needs to be reinforced on a daily bases via required prayers and churches weekly. There are annual events and milestones. All to scare you so you won't go to hell, wherever that is.
What proof is there of anything religion preaches?
ronhohn @ 47:
Are you saying Obama is brainwashed?
In Matthew 7:15 Jesus warned of people like Dobson and other hypocritical televangilists. They didn't have television back then but they had the same characteristics...
A quick google of the Bible did not bring back the GOP or Republican once. Go figure.
If you really believe that all religions are designed "to scare you so you won’t go to hell, wherever that is," then you pretty much lose all credibility in talking about religion. There are plenty of religions that don't even have such a concept, like Taoism. In other words, your knowledge of religion is a "fairy tale."
Also, scientifically-speaking, simply because there is no "proof" (an idea which science doesn't really subscribe to in this post-positivist era; science is about demonstrating possibilities and supporting theories with evidence) of something, that doesn't mean that something doesn't exist. It could mean that it does exist, but scientific researchers haven't demonstrated such a possibility.
For instance, in the 1970s, surveys tracking racial prejudice showed that it had essentially disappeared from US society. However, that was mainly because, since the Civil Rights Movement, many people would either: a) knowingly lie about their feelings, keeping in mind that it was no longer fashionable to be a racist; or b) unknowingly misrepresent themselves with their overt answers because they did not want to see themselves as such.
However, in the early '80s, psychologists began developing unobtrusive ways to investigate stereotyping and prejudice such that study participants could not hide their associations between race and positivity/negativity. You can check out one of the more state-of-the-art/recent/popular tests at projectimplicit.org.
Point is, scientists couldn't find in the '70s what they could by the mid/late '80s, and so just because there may be no "proof" of something, yet, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Deity or no, if a higher power exists, then scientific "proof" would likely be hard to come by, 'cause you might have to have some pretty serious measurement devices. It's likely to be a bit more elusive then targeting implicit stereotyping.
i realize there are a lot of antagonistic, possibly hateful, feelings towards "people of faith" particularly evangelicals. though i am not an evangelical, i am a progressive person of faith who tries to respect people from ALL types of backgrounds. if you think all evangelical preachers are the same please read the following rebuttal from jim wallis, founder of sojourners, regarding james dobson:
Dobson and Obama: Who is 'Deliberately Distorting'?
James Dobson, of Focus on the Family Action, and his senior vice president of government and public policy, Tom Minnery, used their "Focus on the Family" radio show Tuesday to criticize Barack Obama's understanding of Christian faith. In the show, they describe Obama as "deliberately distorting the Bible," "dragging biblical understanding through the gutter," "willfully trying to confuse people," and having a "fruitcake interpretation of the Constitution."
The clear purpose of the show was to attack Barack Obama. On the show, Dobson says of himself, "I'm not a reverend. I'm not a minister. I'm not a theologian. I'm not an evangelist. I'm a psychologist. I have a Ph.D. in child development." Child psychologists don't insert themselves into partisan politics in the regular way that James Dobson does and has over many years as one of the premier leaders of the Religious Right. He has spoken about how often he talked to Republican leaders -- Karl Rove, administration strategists, and even President Bush himself. This year he tried to influence the outcome of the Republican primary by saying he would never vote for John McCain or the Republicans if they nominated him, then reversed himself and said he would vote after all but didn't say for whom. But why should America care about how a child psychologist votes?
[Snip! Site Monitor]
Dobson has also fought unsuccessfully to keep the issue of the environment and climate change, which many also now regard as a "life issue," off the evangelical agenda. Older Religious Right leaders are now being passed by a new generation of young evangelicals who believe that poverty, "creation care" of the environment, human trafficking, human rights, pandemic diseases such as HIV/AIDS, and the fundamental issues of war and peace are also "religious" and "moral" issues and now a part of a much wider and deeper agenda. That new evangelical agenda is a deep threat to Dobson and the power wielded by the Religious Right for so long. It puts many evangelical votes in play this election year, especially among a new generation who are no longer captive to the Religious Right. Perhaps that is the real reason for Dobson's attack on Barack Obama.
i realize that this won't change the minds of many out there. but, my hope is that this will give some of you pause to open your hearts (and minds) to try to be accepting to those of us who are not only progressive/liberal (who fight for the same things you do), but are also people of faith who believe in a higher being.
peace.
[Too long, Blitz. Please quote brief passages of text and provide a link for the rest. For further clarification, please consult the C&L commenting policy, the link provided just below the Koufax Award on the upper left of the page. Thank you. Site Monitor]
Professor Peabody @ 46:
Yeah - but this professor of Constitutional Law voted for the Patriot Act.
Isawthelight @ 53:
He still knows a ton more about Constitutional Law than Dobson.
Get real pepul; The most destained minority in the world is aetheists. I like having someone who runs cover for me. "Thank God", I'm not fat and gay, then the mob with torches would be out with their pitch forks for me.
I am amazed that there is actually intelligent life in Texas. Oops showing my prejudice. But you got to admit you haven't met many Texans that weren't assholes.
You can believe whatever nonsense you want, just keep it out of my face and government. There is a sizable chunk of us (16%) who are non-affiliated.
Dr. Dimbulb read it in a book, therefore it must be infallibe. Doesn't sound like looking out for his families if he is promoting a cult of personality and closed-minds....They might not be able to meet the challenges about to smack them in the face the next decades.
ronhohn @ 47:
I'm agnostic so I don't mind saying that I don't know everything, but just to make the argument, what proof is there that you love anybody? No proof does not necessarily mean something doesn't exist.
xoites defends Constitution @ 5:
And we should care why? Tell obama to go to Africa and run for president there then....maybe odinga will help him bully his way in.
Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell:
http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2008/02/23/kirbyjon-caldwell-obamas-six-de...
Metanoia Ministry
We are pleased to announce the creation of “ The Way, The Truth and The Life”, a program created to provide Christ Centered instruction for those seeking freedom from homosexuality, lesbianism, prostitution, sex addiction and other habitual sins.
http://wthrockmorton.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/metanoia-ministry.mht
Is Dobson looking particularly grotesque these days or has he always been like this?
Perhaps he's rotting from the inside out. THAT would make sense.
*
AquaVelvaMan @ 3:
I do not like being called an intolerant freak. While I believe in the separation of church and state there are millions of Americans who do not. Plus, its simple math when you realize that 100 to 150 million Christians in the USA identify themselves as "Evangelical". Myself included. We are not to be marginalized or ignored as fruitcakes because we are now in the majority in this country.
Instead of showing a total lack of respect and understanding towards an entire group of people in this country it might benefit the Democratic Party to reach out to some of us. Just like Obama is trying and completely failing to do. I say he’s failing at the moment because what neither he, nor a lot of the people on this website understand is the Bible. Dobson totally won the first battle of this long election campaign. And how Dobson and his ilk go, so goes about 100 million votes.
Dobson’s believer’s are the people who have been disenfranchised by the government for so long they no longer can comprehend the concept of a better life. They have been left-behind, kicked in the teeth, and spat upon for a 100 years so that they can only see three issues as a reason to vote. Gays, Guns, and Pro-life. That is not going to be fixed by Obama or anyone else. One cannot change someone’s mind if there is no mind to change. If the concept can’t be touched, felt, tasted, then how can it help me?
So that leaves about 50 million Evangelicals like me who can be reached by Obama or the Democratic Party if we are shown a little respect. After all I tend to follow this website quite closely and the only thing that find it consistently wrong about is the Evangelical question.
After reading the previous comments, it's obvious you only publish mostly ones favorable to Obama. Well, here's another you can throw in the delete basket. I am a Christian and an independent. I've voted for all Presidents (who won) in the last
40 years. If you people can't see that Obama is a liar and will say or do anything to get elected, then you will get what you deserve. This last ploy of his to to try to interpret the Bible for us is ludicrous, James Dobson, nothwithstanding. I don't need someone whose pastor and wife hate whites and America to tell me what Jesus meant or anything else relating to religion. He'd be smart to stick to politics.
Floridiot @ 6:
Beater? It was the necessary link in the evolution from Falcon to Tempo. Some respect please!
Julie McCluskey @ 61:
After voting for Nixon, Reagan, and both Bushes, you have @#$%^&*-all to say about people getting what "they deserve", you sanctimonious twit. Especially since you've already decided that anyone who's disgusted by the disparity between what America is and what it says it is is automatically a "hater." You have all the mental subtlety of a rabid pit bull in heat, and that comes through loud and clear. I actually used to respect John McCain, but now I wouldn't vote for him now if the Democrats put Mickey Mouse on the ticket. Talk about a liar who will flip-flop and say anything to get elected! Look in the mirror, cupcake.
Julie McCluskey @ 61:
You voted for George W. Bush twice. You have zero credibility.
I WANT TO KNOW WHY THEY ARE NOT PAYING TAXES
Ivy Gort @ 60:
It's strange how some people claim to hate intolerance fundies yet act so much like them.
Bonkers Fist Jab @ 9:
How about: elitist, mavrick, appeaser, libtard?
To cubiclegrrl and Rusty Martini
Sorry, I thought the discussion was about Obama's being unqualified to interpret scripture and trying to use religion to get votes. It's not about whether I've been happy with my past choices for president, including both Bushes. By the way, I never said I liked John McCain. So far as I'm concerned, he's the lessor of two evils. We independents have no candidate.
Wow!! Talk about haters.
Julie McCluskey @ 68:
You still have zero credibility, Jules. Why would we discuss anything with you?
cubiclegrrl @ 63:
Beautiful!
Litabell @ 67:
Sorry; that should read:
CartoonCoyote the Stalinist Fuck @ 71:
"Triangulation" would be on my short-list.
Rusty Martini @ 70.
Boo-hoo.
George Carlin distills the position of the egocentric, condescending, self righteous leaders in organized religion that rely on radio and television to support their lifestyle:
“Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bulls**t story. Holy S**t!”
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