Wesley Clark Responds
By John Amato Monday Jun 30, 2008 9:00am
Gen. Wesley Clark went on MSNBC's The Verdict to respond to the criticism he has received for his opinion of John McCain during his visit to Face the Nation on CBS Sunday morning.
Download | play 
Download | play 5 min...(h/t Heather)
He didn't back down and stood by what he said while never making much of a comment about Obama's response. (I don't think it was included in this clip) Good for him....
Please tell me where he was out of line. He said he honored and respected McCain's service and said he was one of his heroes, but didn't think getting shot down was a prerequisite for the White House. Media Matters has the full transcript posted of FTN here.
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Foist Pendejos!
Good for him!!!!
The man is right - and General Clark is also a hero.
Please don't move toward "the center" if kowtowing "the center" led us to this mess.
What will happen next?
"No bastard ever won a war by "getting shot down" for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
- Attributed to General George Patton Jr
(from "A Genius for War" by Carlo d'Este)
Again, it's the press making more of this than they should, but then anything to sell copy. he was criticizing McCain not attacking him, and certainly not swift-boating him. and McCain is presuming to be President of the United States, so therefore any issue that any single voter wants to form an opinion on about any candidate is fair to be discussed and considered. voters should be as informed as possible before selecting a candidate. emotion shouldn't run the day. and that of course goes as well for Barack Obama: any issue about him that any voter wants to consider before voting is important, as long as that voter determines it to be. even for Barr or Nader or whomever.
Clark said nothing wrong and this entire "scandal" was created by the rightwing and given play by their media enablers. I was very happy that he did not back down when repeatedly pressed. With Obama moving to the "center" (he now supports expanding government funded faith-based intitiatives!) I kinda wish Clark was the nominee.
Being shot down in a fighter plane should not be a requisite to being POTUS. Nor should being in the armed services be a requisite to being POTUS. Never has been. Clark was exactly right except for one detail. He said that McShame had been a hero to him and millions of others. Beg to differ General. I don't believe you really, deep down, believe that McShame is a hero but God forbid! you would ever say that!!! So I will say it for you: John McCain is no hero.
theWalrus @ 6:
Yeah...I hear that...Obama is not making me happy lately....I don't want to think that my time and money spent supporting him were wasted...
theWalrus @ 6:
Sorry, but Obama has always been a centrist. In fact, if you look at his policy record... like most of the Dems he is a moderate conservative.
There is nothing even close to left in the mainstream American politics.
I think his comment was correct. In fact, I don't think service in uniform is a prerequisite for executive political service either. They are not transferable skills. Certainly, fighting a war does not qualify one to decide to start a war, and, as we see with GWB, not fighting doesn't either. The two criterial have nothing to do with the talent needed to make such determinations. Eisenhower was very clear that the war machine was something to fear, not sanctify, and he HAD military executive experience.
Where was he out of line?
He questioned the qualifications of a Republican. Not his patriotism or penchant for taking airplanes up in the sky and bringing them down in several pieces or his ability to be a POW but his bonefides to run the country. Everybody knows the last thing we need is a qualified President. It would fly in the face of tradition.
I am inclined to agree with Gen. Clark. He said nothing wrong. In fact, he is doing the media's job buy looking at McCain's service instead of blindly accepting the meme that McCain and the GOP are pushing.
What kind of country are we where you can't question a person's qualifications for our MOST IMPORTANT JOB, because he was POW?
I was in a car wreck once. I guess that makes me qualified to run General Motors. (Oh, wait, GM's another car wreck. Oops, poor analogy.)
See. Here we go again. Who's more patriotic. Next will be who smoked pot, who's more religious, etc. etc. etc. Why is this crap important?!?!
Meanwhile, pentagon source says Israel is poised to attack Iran. Little coverage by the MSM. Coincidence? C'mon
As a result, scared ignorant Americans will vote for the "tough-guy" party, the Supreme Court will become dominated by conservatives, and the American Fascist state wil continue to cater to the Cheney's, the Bush's, and the rest of the power eliets as the U.S.A. continues its decline into the abyss...
This is so frustrating. I just want Clark to say, "Hey Bob Schieffer YOU tell me how getting shot down qualifies one to be president. Explain it to me. Eisenhower was high commander of Allied forces in Europe. That's arguably a bigger responsibility that POTUS. That surely qualified him. Kennedy and Bush I also served with distinction but never made that a big part of their campaign, instead emphasizing their real executive service. This is such a no brainer I can't believe it. I can't believe Obama jumped on the diss Clark bandwagon.
O/T (sorry)
Obama now says he's going to expand Bush's "faith based" initiatives:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080701/ap_on_el_pr/obama_faith
Meet the new boss...
I have yet to figure out just why McCain is a "hero". What exactly did he do that others didn't, who were in his situtation? What does being a POW have to do with anything, but being a POW? And the same for being a military person? What does leadign a squadron have to do with the presidency? That would mean that even Mr. Bush had some great qualifications for being President from being in the military, which is oh-so evidently not true.
It's too bad that the term hero has been so devalued that simply existing seems reason to deem someone that.
So, many reich-wingers, who never served, attacking a General.....how amusing and a tad bit ironic.
Calling McCain a hero is like giving the quarterback that threw the interception that cost him the game a MVP.
breakspear @ 5:
I don't think it's only the press that's making a mountain out of this molehill. I'm looking at you left-wing blog comments sections...
andrea @ 16:
He's not a hero. The reich-wing GOPigs have perverted the very meaning of the word.
General Clark is right. Anyone flying a fighter plane during wartime can get shot down. This is not a prerequisite for anything in my book. In fact, if you really want to get technical, McCain has brought down more American planes himself by crashing them than probably every North Vietnamese missile or anti aircraft battery combined.
The Media Industrial Complex has made Clark's comments into "Clark trashes McCain's military service".
Complete and utter bullshit.
Bob Schieffer, whom I really respected until Sunday's show, came at Clark with "Well, Obama never got shot down and spent five years as a POW" -- and Clark simply threw it back in his face.
WTF is "Barry O" up to these past few days? Throwing Clark under the proverbial bus; now he wants to EXPAND gov't funding for faith-based programs. What's next Senator?
If getting shot down and being a POW qualifies an individual to be president, why wasn't McCain nominated by his party in 2000 over Bush?
What General Clark said was literally true.
It is undeniable that McCain's POW status in Vietnam does not qualify him for the presidency. Those who disagree bear the burden of explaining exactly in what way McCain's POW status makes him uniquely qualified to serve as Commander in Chief. It's like saying that surviving a plane crash makes me qualified to pilot a 747.
andrea @ 16:
Yes, there were many POW's in Vietnam. This particular POW was not just the son of an Admiral, but also the grandson of an Admiral. So you can see the distinction right there. His Royal lineage...
Sorry that is so pre 1776 thinking on my part.
Obama is one big disappointment. This latest cave to the repugs over Clark's statement is just another proof of Democratic weakness. Obama is no better than Pelosi and Reid in giving in to the whining of Bush and McShame. IF Obama is elected in November will we see more of the same, giving in to the repugs on every issue and not standing up for anything? What is worse, a president who leads the country in the wrong direction or a president who doesn't lead only follows.
ringworm @ 19:
Really? Well thanks for stopping by. Hopefully you will pick up a fact or two for a change.
I like Ballonjuice's perspective that by McCain's criteria Randy "Duke"Cunningham, who is now in prison, would make an excellent presidential choice, since he served heroically in the military.
Unbelievable!! After all the lies and disreputable acts that have characterized the Republican Party’s last three election campaigns, that they and their cowardly surrogate supporters have the gall to criticize Wesley Clark for an honest observation that in no way demeaned McCain. But they are experts at twisting the truth so as to focus the blame on their opponents.
this is such a friggin non-issue. the back and forth over this is pure farce.
oh, to have a msm that actually covers the issues.
and, like others have said, obama doesn't need to tack to the center, he is of the center. good for some, for others, not so much.
McCain opened himself up to the attack by surrendering to the Viet Cong all those years ago.
crap, i meant to put center in quotes.
as in:
obama is of the "center"
as, today's notion of the "center" is biased to an extreme.
Of course he wasn't out of line. About time people in this Nation spoke up. Objectively, just what does being a POW, standing alone, give you to make you more qualified to be President? Nothing. Was it horrible to go through? Absolutely.
Samson- @ 30:
In this country having an MSM that covers the issues would be a disaster. Half of Congress would be looking for work, the President, Vice President and at least one former Attorney General would be behind bars and our tax dollars would be used for things like health care instead of bombs. Surely you can see the dilema that would create.
This is just high drama about an old man who has nothing to offer anyone. This is the neo-con strategy, and Clark fell into it. Better to have kept his mouth shut.
It's never about issues. It's always about how we "feel" about candidates.
xoites defends Constituion @ 27:
Really? Well thanks for stopping by. Hopefully you will pick up a fact or two for a change.
Listen, John Amato himself constantly says how this is Obama's party now. He won the primary and one of the nice things about being the nominee is that you get to decide how your campaign is run. Traditionally that means you get to control the party's message. Can we agree with that? Good.
People are completely distorting Obama's "rebuke" of General Clark. He isn't rejecting the substance of the statements, he is rejecting using that tack in his campaign message entirely. He has decided that attacking McCain's military service at all is not only a political non-starter, it is also bad form. I don't know why anyone is surprised by this or thinks that he is in any way altering his position, or moving to the center. It is none of those things. This is the exact sort of thing he's been saying since he first started running. He wants it to be about the issues. Maybe that's weak, or soft, or naive, or whatever, but it is entirely consistent with his campaign message to date.
xoites defends Constituion @ 27:
Highly doubt it, the logical dissonance inside the right winger's brain is so deafening as handicapping them from performing simple exercises in logic.
Who could blame them. Would you be able to pick facts if you had an entire kitchen staff banging their pots and pans as loud as they could for hours inside your head?
how this is Obama’s party now.
PartY ON, MOFOs
Strange.
When the "swiftboaters" first came out, FOX-whatever promoted them as a source of truth.
However, now that Clark has spoke out about his own opinion, he's now "swiftboating" McCain.
Implying that it's a smear-job.
Implying that FOX now admits that the "swiftboaters" were smear-jobs against Kerry.
That they promoted.
Isn't it great when you can gloss over history?
I couldn't agree with Wesley Clarke more. I've been saying the same thing for the last year, and have NEVER heard it mentioined by anyone.
mcBush was a POW. I regrettably respect that five years. I don't even want to know what he told the enemy at the time. I would have told them anything they wanted to know most likely, considering the treatment that they administered to him (similar to what we NOW administer to our prisoners).
But that in NO WAY makes him a "hero". He was a POW. He didn't jump on a grenade, save any of his fellow servicemen, do something "heroic". Wake up America. You are so screwed up on your thinking.
And being a Navy pilot is to be commended. If you were to go into his personal life back then, I don't think you would believe he was such a "model citizen", but he was a young military jock, and I can accept that.
But all this bullshit about "hero", and "fit to be president because he was a POW" is simply bullshit, twisted logic.
I was in a motorcycle accident 8 months ago. Does that make me qualified to head the Transportation Department? God, the logic this right wing, noecon/fascist party and the media spin is appalling.
Are Americans REALLy this f*cking stupid? Do we have to appear to the rest of the world like we have absolutely NO BRAINS??
We truly are a nation of f*cking morons. We're #1, we're #1....
Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 31:
Speaks volumes that McCain got shot down flying a multi million dollar jet by a farmers, wearing flip flops.
He was out of line because he broke orthodox. It's that simple. The bias of the press isn't so much towards the GOP or the Democrats. The bias of the press is to maintain orthodoxy and enforce The Narrative. And questioning how events in McCain's service are qualifications for President sends McCain Media Love Train completely off the rails.
He was not out of line one bit. The media response is very telling, especially regarding Schieffer. They are equating any questioning of McCain's leadership experience with questions about Obama's race as far as "no talk" goes. But the reality is McCain has very limited national security chops, and if you want to gauge his decision making look at Iraq and how Al Qaeda and The Taliban have regrouped. All we have heard from him is crying about protecting Pakistan sovereignty. Despicable to anyone who has friends or family who signed up to do a real mission.
liberAL @ 26:
I tend to agree. Obama's recent vote on FISA, and now his failure to back Clarke, while it may be smart politics, suggests to me that he is not above abandoning his priciples in order to reach his goals.
Did you see the part on "V" for vendetta w/ Abrams last night where Wes said the media was swiftboating him and Tfucker Carlson said "whatever that means"?
ringworm @ 36:
Listen, John Amato himself constantly says how this is Obama's party now. He won the primary and one of the nice things about being the nominee is that you get to decide how your campaign is run. Traditionally that means you get to control the party's message. Can we agree with that? Good.
People are completely distorting Obama's "rebuke" of General Clark. He isn't rejecting the substance of the statements, he is rejecting using that tack in his campaign message entirely. He has decided that attacking McCain's military service at all is not only a political non-starter, it is also bad form. I don't know why anyone is surprised by this or thinks that he is in any way altering his position, or moving to the center. It is none of those things. This is the exact sort of thing he's been saying since he first started running. He wants it to be about the issues. Maybe that's weak, or soft, or naive, or whatever, but it is entirely consistent with his campaign message to date.
Perhaps you are missing the point. I have yet to make a comment on what Obama has said or done in all of this.
The Media, the Monopoly Media has gone Ape Shit over this. As if by questioning McCain's qualifications was a direct attack against the press. They are highly offended and outraged. They are, in point of fact, McCain's cheerleaders.
If this is fine with you you missed your era. The Soviet Union collapsed already.
One thing I would implore all of us to do is 'not' to talk about how disappointed we may be in Obama's response on any given issue...just let them play out...let Obama's surrogates do the heavy lifting and keep the enemy at bay. No, just keep one thing at the forefront on everything. No matter what is said and done about anything over the next four-plus months, no 'effin' way we're gonna reward the Repugs with another four years after this past eight. As Paul Craig Roberts has said, we may not be happy with the performance of the Dem leadership at times, but the one thing that we can, and must do, is to hold all Repugnicans accountable for the performance of bush/cheney - after all every one of them supported, contributed to and enabled them to do the criminal damage they have done to us and others and they shall all be found guilty at the ballot box.
I love how Obama doesn't hesitate to throw anyone under the bus.
Unbelievable.
If you actually take a look at the quote and the question asked prior to it it's actually nothing. Of course I doubt Obama or his campaign even bothered.
"Bob Schieffer: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be President."
i'm so glad he didn't back down... maybe all those petitions helped?
he was just repeating schieffer's words in his response... repeating schieffer's words.
werenotgonnatakei @ 42:
The bias of the press is obvious. John Kerry, a decorated war veteran who is a democrat, is free game and his service can be openly criticized. However, McGrampa's, a reich-winger, military service is off limits.
It's amusing to read the "outrage" shillary supporters claiming Obama tossed the General under the bus.
Jack Kennedy took a spin about in pt-boat during WW2, did not hurt him in his run for the presidency -- did it? And the obama folk admitted to giving Clark his talking points. This was just a trial balloon that turned into lead. No one looks foolish here to me except Axelrod and company. And one more question to the obama fan club that seems to be here in great presence (paid employees or not) ---- what candidate running for president in history has taken his first European tour -secretservice in tow- while he is campaigning? there have to be axelrod talking points on this -----
I watched this interview on TV Sunday and thought that Schieffer showed bias in his reaction to Gen. Clark's remarks about McCain's war record as it relates to qualifications to be POTUS. I thank McCain and all of our veterans for their service to our county but am of the opinion that being a war prisoner or NOT being a war prisoner has no bearing on ones qualifications to be president. Sure it was a terrible experience for McCain but being a victim of bad karma does not automatically make you a hero. My idea of a war hero is my Dad and 8 uncles who served during WWII, participated in combat, suffered wounds, came home and rarely ever talked about their experiences. They just did their duty and got on with their lives. My jaw just dropped when Monday's lead story on NBC evening news was a sound bite taken out of context that made Gen. Clark look like he was blasting McCain's war record. Talk about biased reporting I might as well have been watching FOX news. I never expected this type of reporting from NBC news.
It's also amusing to see almost of Barrys supporters respective necks being snapped off from Obama switching his position over and over.
McCain sent out a friggen SWIFT BOATER fraud out to attack Clark and the Obama campaign does nothing. They are weak, very weak.
DirtyDawg @ 47:
One thing i would implore everyone to do is excersize their right to free speech.
One should expect the press will continue to side with McCain and buy into his narratives as long until he trails in the polls. They'll never back the leading horse. Thankfully, it seems Obama doesn't need the press on his side to maintain his lead. The press "corpse" won't report on the blowout story until it's history.
That said, if McCain is going to stand on his military service as the experience that trumps Obama's, isn't it fair to examine those claims?
I think this Clark "scandal" is just a taste of what's to come over the next 4 months. The Right have placed McCain on a pedestal and they are not going to stand for any even remotely implied questioning of his maverick, war hero status. He's their daddy.
Dr. (Fast Eddie Hussein) Matt @ 50:
I saw the 300 pound ladies wearing 3 little pink bandaids making fun of Kerry's purple hearts. That was considered free speech.
ringworm @ 36:
Listen, John Amato himself constantly says how this is Obama's party now. He won the primary and one of the nice things about being the nominee is that you get to decide how your campaign is run. Traditionally that means you get to control the party's message. Can we agree with that? Good.
People are completely distorting Obama's "rebuke" of General Clark. He isn't rejecting the substance of the statements, he is rejecting using that tack in his campaign message entirely. He has decided that attacking McCain's military service at all is not only a political non-starter, it is also bad form. I don't know why anyone is surprised by this or thinks that he is in any way altering his position, or moving to the center. It is none of those things. This is the exact sort of thing he's been saying since he first started running. He wants it to be about the issues. Maybe that's weak, or soft, or naive, or whatever, but it is entirely consistent with his campaign message to date.
Clark DID NOT attack McW's military service! Have you watched the tape or read the transcript?
How many American prisoners of war were there?
And they're all the best candidates for president?
Weirdest thing I ever heard of was a POW forced to pose for propaganda pictures for the Viet Cong.
To make it clear he was doing so unwillingly he flipped the bird to the camera.
The VC didn't get the reference
Life magazine used the picture for a cover, but removed the offending finger.
All across the country people thought the Viet Cong chopped his fiinger off.
FNORD @ 9:
It is up to us to change that. The military industrial complex has defined the political spectrum for us too long. 1/2 TRILLION per year for the military budget now!!!!! That has ruined our democracy and bankrupted us. Every one of our positive actions on the Internet is our current hope. It is up to US!
All you have to do is kill a bunch of civilians to become an American hero. And now you know why our country is so screwed up.
I just finished reading and article by Lt.General Robert Gard,who worked with Clark and speaks good of him titled 'Defending Wes Clark' on Huffingtonpost.com,
I did not know that Wes Clark was wounded four times in Viet Nam until I read the article today.
It is interesting to know that no network ever mentioned that..even when he ran for president last time in 2004.
So, Clark just as hero as McCain...the difference is General Clark was in charge of defending all NATO countries in Europe ,as Allied Supreme Commander. Under his command there were hundreds of thousands of troops in Europe under many flags.
So when General Clark raised the question of abilities of McCain, he was talking of experience.
But the media with its spin and twist translated Clark's words as an attack on McCain's military service record...which is not what Clark said.
In fact Clark said the opposite, he praised McCain's wartime service record.
"Good for him"? He did not mention Obama's rightward pandering - defending McCain against something that Clark didn't even say.
Is it good because our position now is that Obama is the democratic nominee - so we must ignore
all of his rightward tilts and betrayals of progressive values?
Party before principle.
This really distinguishes us from the Republicans, doesn't it?
.. and I'll say it again ..
If we accept the Republican's definition of "torture" then McCain was not "tortured" by the Vietnamese.
The worst he suffered were the same "enhanced interrogation techniques" the US has used at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and uncounted
torture"enhanced interrogation" sites around the world.Say THAT and get a rise from our knuckle-dragging "media" ..
xoites defends Constituion @ 55:
One thing i would implore everyone to do is excersize their right to free speech.
Why didn't Richard Simmons ever become a professional exorcist?
harley @ 58:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/483894335_4bfab5c051.jpg
ysbaddaden @ 60:
Weirdest thing to me is getting shot down makes you a hero. Getting attacked during 9-11 (Rudy/Bush) made them a hero.
We really reward failure.
Obama seems to be bent on making himself a one-term president, one who loses in the '12 primaries, before he even gets elected.
Dr. (Fast Eddie Hussein) Matt @ 67:
http://www.danegerus.com/weblog/images/JFKerryBandAid.jpg
douglas in oklahoma @ 52:
Actually, Roosevelt was the first U.S. president to have ever traveled abroad. But, what's your point? Many US citizens (much to my dismay) have not traveled abroad. Perhaps he didn't because he was a young man starting a career and a family, and, until pretty recently, didn't have tons of money. Big deal
ysbaddaden @ 66:
Why didn't Richard Simmons ever become a professional exorcist?
Religous differences, i suspect.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b371/theonanist/dishonor.jpg
obviously clark was right. the constitution does not require one to be a fighter pilot/POW in order to be president. the drama should have ended there.
so fucking dumb...
from flag pins, to terrorist fist jabs, to this nonsense. meanwhile... in the real world, things get worse and worse.
this is what the msm does best: distracts.
and we willingly go along for the ride. this he said/she said bullshit will drag on for a couple of news cycles only to be replaced by some recipe-scandal, or questionable wardrobe choice, or what have you. yet, again, the real issues are not discussed and things continue to slide downhill. no where is it written that the US won't collapse in on itself. and, when it does, we will have to face the music that we fiddled while rome burned.
Because he lost in an intra-GOP matchup; things like family values, valuing military service, etc., are only important to the GOP when running against a Dem and then only when the issue favors them. The GOP carps about the left having relativistic or situational ethics, but the GOP wrote that book.
QuestionEverything @ 23:
Thankx, that was a great catch.
Dr. (Fast Eddie Hussein) Matt @ 50:
The military industrial complex wants war mongers in federal government. It is good for business. The only way to stop it is to teach our children that
the military is doing all the spending of our money and children for their own pockets. GREED!!! Stop enlisting in the military. Force the greedy murderous bastards (the military) to start the draft.
It doesn't matter what he says. The MSM will keep lying for their GOP bosses until a blatant lie becomes the truth to the clueless American public. Its the way things work in the Orwellean states of America: up is down, Bush is a uniter, freedom is slavery, tax cuts increase revenue, blah blah blah.........
He was "out of line" simply because he brought up McCain's record in an unflattering light.
MountainMan23 @ 65:
'When John McCain was my captive'
"But I can confirm to you that we never tortured him. We never tortured any prisoners."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7459946.stm
Libertas @ 79:
NO HE DID NOT. Schieffer brought up the "getting shot down and being a POW" bullshit.
Dr. Acula @ 59:
Clark DID NOT attack McW's military service! Have you watched the tape or read the transcript?
Thank you Dr. Acula, I believe your post is an accurate rendition of this matter. And focusing on the relevant issues is not weak or naive, it is absolutely essential if we are to change anything for the better in this country.
NoGWBpolicyleftinplace @ 78:
"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.
"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What i tell you three times is true."
Lewis Carroll
This is what happens when you speak truth to power.
there are bigger fish to fry.
This A.M. on all major networks
Oh my god, the shape of the Milk carton changed!!!
MountainMan23 @ 84:
Yes, power goes ape shit.
wesley clark the war criminal?
C&L, you sure you wanna be associated with this scumbag?
apeman @ 85:
Really?
I have to go!
I honor ALL who've served in the military but that in and of itself does not make one a "hero".
owemygod... @ 87:
Would you care to back up your slander with some facts?
Bottom line: McCain finished at the bottom of his academy class. If it was not for his Dad he would of never been an avatar in the first place. McCain should of been a surface warfare officer on a ship working on the bridge. But because of the "old boy network" he got a dreamy pilot slot. It was a waste of the U.S. taxpayers money to spend the money to train him to fly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
harley @ 80:
Yeah .. I saw that .. surprisingly MSNBC included that article on the page that loads when I sign out of hotmail.
"McCain's torturer denies torturing him. Says McCain made up the stories about torture just to get votes. Also says he'd vote for him for president because he loves his country."
.. totally wierd ..
dr acula:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
Underground Pirate @ 77:
I'm growing a little tired of hearing angry liberals scream for the draft.
My kids haven't done a damn thing that would merit them being forceably shoved into the military industrial complex suicide machine! What's more, even if the draft did come back, assholes like Bush and Cheney would use their connections to exempt their own, and my kids are the ones that would have to go (just like Viet Nam). And if you think a draft would stop these maniacal bastards, you are sadly mistaken!
The real problem, is that we live in a nation of clueless stupid fucking morons! After the absolute disaster and cornholing the repukes gave working Americans the last 7.5 years, McStupid will probably still get 45% of the vote (minimum), and win the entire south and midwest.
Actually, the point is that low-level military service, no matter how heroic, is not a significant qualification for the presidency. Now that the GOP candidate has some combat experience and the Democratic candidate does not, they are trying to use it to give McCain a leg up on Obama; however, when it was the AWOL Bush vs. Kerry, they instead tried to devalue Kerry's service so that it couldn't be used against the Shrub.
Clark's statement was simply to point out that although McCain seems to mention his service like Guliani brought up his mayorship during 9/11, McCain's service is not a strong qualification. For example, McCain's explosive temper would make him a very dangerous person to have in command of the US armed forces (more so if things get bumpy with the nuclear missle armed Russia).
xoites defends Constituion @ 88:
Holy cow! Do you have a link?? This is huge!
though I still think Clark should have phrased things better, the more I see the media discuss it (Olbermann the one exception) I don't think it would have mattered. The reporting does not even go into the substance, but rather only the outrage and some twisted indignation at a Swift-Boating angle that doesn't even make sense. The media twists every event in a way to make it seem like it hurts Obama and how Obama has to live up to what McCain unquestionable is and represents - its not even close to balanced reporting. McCain is still getting a preposterously free ride. McCain's flip flops and his lack of knowledge on Iraq and Iran (who's the Sunni, who's the Shia? he still probably doesn't know) are totally ignored.
Also, CNN is awful - nearly as bad as faux news, but probably worse since they purport to be an honest media outlet.
FNORD @ 9:
Maybe Obama should stop being such a wuss and actually stand by what he believes in, or at least says he believes in.
The last few months have been nothing but him saying "No, I really mean it....unless it makes people sad, then I'll totally change my stance."
I never was a fan, and he's definitely not winning me over with his constant pandering.
From Article II, Section 1 of "The Constitution of the United States of America":
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
There is no requirement mentioned that one must have been shot down in a fighter jet, or (to put it in the terms of the late 1700s) that one must have had their horse shot out from under them in a time of war.
Bombin' John's been lying about his torture for 40 years.
He was injured when he was shot down and pulled--roughly--from his wrecked plane before he could drown.
The Vietnamese treated him as well as they could, without anesthesia.
There wasn't much of it around Hanoi in those days, and the Vietnamese were mainly using it on the people Biombin' Johnnie and his pals were trying to kill...
MountainMan23 @ 93:
Why we know IF HE DID TORTURE McCain he would of been convicted of war crimes. Funny that he is a free man talking to the press.
Obama needs to wake up..because the next few months these Swiftboaters are going to be busy having him on their target board.
Yesterday and today...all the media is repeating what McCain has been saying that..."Obama's word cannot be trusted...",but with no evidence whatsoever why this statement has been made.
What was Obama's response yesterday?!!...he praised McCain's record...
If Obama continues this...he will be thrown off deck very soon.
He needs to respond in a stronger fashion and with vogor..or he will be riding Kerry,Dukakis and Mondal bus of losers.
Fanon @ 97:
SPIN! SPIN! SPIN!
liberAL @ 26:
Okay, so the alternative, MORE OF THE SAME, is better? Look, we've had enough total insanity, and we want our country back. ALL THAT MATTERS NOW, IS THAT WE GET THESE MANIACS OUT OF OFFICE, and rebuild or give all our freedom and life as we know it, away to the reich wing..........NO, A THOUSAND TIMES OVER.
Obama, on his worst day, will be a better leader than boosh ever was on one of his fake, best days........commander cod piece lied about everything, everything. Eight years of zero leadership is all this country can take.
Andrea @ 100:
I believe what you are seeing is exactly what Barry "believes in": Hyar kom de new bahss, jus lahk de ow' bahss...
In today's USA Today, McCain is quoted as saying "I'm proud of my record of service." This declaration does not square with McCain's statements on 60 Minutes in the 1990s, when McCain said that he considered himself a war criminal for having dropped napalm on Vietnamese civilians. Further on in that article, Obama states that "... no one should ever devalue [McCain's] service." Apparently the last thing that the [alleged] agent of hope and change would wish to do is to challenge and question the need for people like McCain to blindly accept and obey those illegal orders which involves incinerating innocent Vietnamese civilians. Another example of America's politicians pandering to American militarism.
Wes Clark is not the issue . . .Obama is! Obama is a complete and utter disaster.
The McCain war hero story has a Jessica Lynch feel to it.
Son of a 4 star, serving his country bravely, shoot down and tortured........
Jessica Lynch for President.
NoGWBpolicyleftinplace @ 95:
I agree. I would much prefer that we build down our military and close all foriegn bases. The only purpose of our military, especially our Navy is to protect oil tankers and the interests of large corporations who pay less or no taxes and charge high prices. A National Guard would do fine. Besides, had we not been in Saudi Arabia 9/11 probably would never have happened. Subtract Military adventurism from foriegn policy and we have more than enough volunteers to cover our needs.
Andrea @ 100:
Maybe Obama should stop being such a wuss and actually stand by what he believes in, or at least says he believes in.
find out what he really believes in
google: CFR
CarpeDiem @ 110:
Hey, looks who's back!
xoites defends Constituion @ 112:
Funny the Constitution states "no standing armies longer than two years".
Looks like we can blow that one off too.
When a military man wants to have sex with his wife, does he bark
"Fall into formation!"
?
CarpeDiem @ 110:
if you're a Hillary hold out - the exact same storyline would be unfolding for her should she have been the nominee.
The dumbocrats still don't get it!
The proper response to this is to look directly into the camera and say "why don't republicans and their MSM employees want to talk about issues that matter to the American people (economy anyone, the GOP tax cut scams)? Why don't they want to concentrate on what they did to this country under their leadership and policies? Why do they want to avoid putting the light of day on the results of CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN idealogy?"
The democrats are so fucking slow to catch on. If politics had a Special Ed class for the politically challenged, their entire leadership would have to be enrolled in it! Where did they get these dumbasses from??
What was really gross, was that Abrams and his panel completely tore General Clark down as soon as he was off-camera, unfairly and aggressively. This guy has an impressive record. I think they are just confused whenever someone has the integrity not to cower under the hypocritical spotlight of the media.
Rod @ 100:
119 NoGWBpolicyleftinplace Says: The dumbocrats still don’t get it!
Been listening to Birch Barlow?
NoGWBpolicyleftinplace @ 119:
Don't ignore the over arching mindset. Once you start playing by the Corporate Media's rules you lose your bearings in a hurry.
Did Obama really reply to Clark's comment? By what he said it doesn't seem like it, Clark's comment related to qualification for POTUS, Obama's comment related to patriotism.
Other than McCain not being qualified due to his past as one of the dumbest out of the Naval Academy (894 of 899), having destroyed 4 planes prior to the disaster on the Forestal when he destroyed another and 134 sailors were killed, and then getting shot down and forgetting his requirement to give out only Name, Rank and Serial Number, he went singing to the Vietnamese until they 'supposedly' offered him a chance to be repatriated.
To be a 'Hero' you must have done something 'heroic'. I don't see that here. Done is an active verb, not passive as in 'done some suffering'.
But more salient is that a 'lawmaker' he does not seem to have any idea what is lawful and what isn't. He said: ” …. Assured of lifetime tenures, these judges show little regard for the authority of the president, the congress and the states. They display even less interest in the will of the people. and the only remedy available to any of us is to find, nominate and confirm better judges”
Does McCain not know that the sole purpose of the Justices is to validate a law as to its constitutionality, regardless of presidential and public opinion?
Wes Clark was a general and injured in combat himself. But he's a Democrat so he gets put on the defensive. With McSame it's hands off.
CHICAGO - Reaching out to evangelical voters, Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is announcing plans to expand President Bush's program steering federal social service dollars to religious groups and in a move sure to cause controversy support some ability to hire and fire based on faith.
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Can Obama do anything else to piss us off? I mean, uh, jesus.
I'm almost starting to be glad I voted for Clinton. She may have been a bit cuckoo, but everyday I get a worse and worse feeling about Obama.
beastmode @ 118:
No no Hillary holdout there beastmode....just a troll from McBains site, trying to earn some "points"...
Fanon @ 71:
MY POINT IS THIS --- we, the American people are going to pay millions to protect obama while he travels to Europe --- if he wins --- fine; but as a candidate -- preconvention -- it just seems cheeky. And for the last 60 years most the presidents had traveled before they were elected. The only one that had obama's lack of curiosity of the European experience --- was George Bush Jr. sad but true......And obama took a holiday between college and law school --- he could have gone anywhere -- it's not a qualication of course --- but his world view might be different had he...
jake3988 @ 126:
Oh, this is great news. Bush lite.
BrokenArrow @ 108:
I have to agree with ya...I'm am however, still pissed at Obama over this faith based funding BS!
douglas in oklahoma @ 128:
This is where i get deeply concerned about some people's ability to process information. To suggest that Obama has never been out of the country is the most bizzare of all arguments. On the one hand a photo of him in Africa wearing traditional garb has been widely circulated for the purpose of "proving" he is a Muslim. His schooling in Indonesia has also been used as a way to say he is a Muslim. Now we are being told he never went overseas so his experiences are limited. I am not a potted plant. I don't grow when you cover me in shit.
ysbaddaden @ 122:
Never heard of him/her? Who are they?
The media has become one of the biggest problems for America because they don't seek to educate or even report the news... they serve us up controversy because it sells and gets them ratings and if there is no controversy... they will make one.
Yesterday we witnessed yet another faux controversy at General Clark's expense. What he said was accurate and true. He did not denigrate or devalue McCain's military service, but put it into perspective.
General Clark knows combat first hand and is highly decorated for his service in Vietnam where his platoon was ambushed and though hit four times by AK-47 fire he led a successful counter attack with his men and refused to leave the field until a reaction force had come onto the field. He was awarded the Silver Star for that action.
As I listend to Dan Abrahms and the chorus of MSM talking heads blather on about how General Clark's remarks were or weren't terrible and such I realized the problem...
General Clark was trying to make them understand what it is really like to be a war time commander, which he knows very well having been an Supreme Allied Commander in Europe in the wars that broke out there, as Commander-in-Chief of the United States Southern Command, and as the Director of Strategic Plans and Policy for the Joint Staff at the Pentagon, and having led the military negotiations for the Bosnian Peace Accords at Dayton.
He knows the realities of war and command first hand, from direct experience. He has made the tough calls ordering men and women of our armed services into harms way. We've all heard the expression, "its lonely at the top"... well the man has been there.
The talking heads and pundits don't really understand that experience, nor do most of us except you Vets, yet they feel free to criticize him about an area that they know nothing about.
These are but a few of the reactions of those who have seen combat to General Clark's remarks and the attacks on him:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/30/223436/275/665/544457
Perhaps some MSM reporter could ask McSame to explain to us just how his experience being a jet pilot and having been shot down qualifies him to be president?
Since everyone who talks about McSame praises his service to the country, being proud of his service, I was hoping some reporter might ask McInane if he was proud of his own performance in his military career? Beyond his off duty behavior which frequently exceeded the behavior expected of Officers and Gentlmen, beyond his maritial infidelities before and after he was a POW, what does he think of his own military performance, does he think he is a brave hero?
If McIsane could expound upon the experiences he had in the military that are presidential qualifiers I would like to hear them.
If and when my questions were ever answered I'm sure the answers would not sway me from not wanting a President who's first response to events comes from military training. I'm not discounting the military as an option, but recognize it as one of several options Presidents have when evaluations of situations are made. McCodger's views are limited by the blinders worn by republiscums. That and an inability to look beyond his own self interest.
CarpeDiem @ 111:
Hey Republican butt plug, lay off the demagoguery...We get you...you hate Obama. But if you think for one second I'm (or most sane people at this site) going to make you happy and let McVomit become Prez because of a couple of bad decisions by Obama, you're fucking nuts.
By saying he "honored and respected McCain’s service and said he was one of his heroes." That's where he was out of line.
xoites defends Constituion @ 131:
HAHAHAHA Xoites, that's awesome. I got so caught up in responding to that that I didn't really read it! That's a definite more coffee indicator.
xoites defends Constituion @ 123:
Not sure what ya mean exactly; but keeping the spotlight on the truth will eventually be a winner. At least I hope?
If it isn't, at least I would feel better about losing, knowing we gave it the best we had. Always backpeddaling the instant a neocon puts up their faux indignation bullshit, has got us to where we are today.
I like Clark for Defense. Period.
Fanon @ 137:
Xoites does know how to turn a phrase doesn't she!
CarpeDiem @ 111:
Everybody needs stop their whining and give Obama a little credit!!!
If you think that Obama is going to win the presidency by taking by taking the most liberal position on every issue… you are delusional.
Like it or not anyone who is to be president has to win over the 40 something percent of moderate/somewhat conservative swing voters.
Unfortunately - this means not always getting your way… you know compromising.
If you take an all or nothing approach to politics, you will more often than not end up with nothing… this one’s to important to do that again.
BrokenArrow @ 108:
i see your point, but i also think that you have to be very careful
don't view history in 8-year chunks, or from one admin to the next. look at the bigger picture. how, since the 70s-80s, the country has moved to the right and faltered (understatement). how income disparity grows, wealth becomes concentrated, our govt is castrated, etc.
then, ask yourself, would obama stem this tide?
i, personally, don't think so. i believe he will govern as the past several admin's have (reagan, bush, clinton, bush), and we will continue to see america's standing go down. to some, like me, this election should be much bigger than a refutation of bush policies. it should be a refutation of the entire past 30 odd years of economic and foreign policy.
and with obama little will change, in regards to the decades-long progression of what i discussed. yes, he will be markedly different than bush, but the overall, systemic failures won't be addressed.
NoGWBpolicyleftinplace @ 138:
I was refering to people who interact with the press. The fall in line with the "rules" implied or otherwise in a hurry. Stick a camera in someone's face and it changes them. Most people like the attention and if they do not behave in a certain manner they get ignored and they know it.
BaScOmBe hearts Lara Logan @ 139:
With two active wars running and a possible third in the wings (which I can't believe) we are in need of his experience one way or the other. He really does believe that war is the absolute last resort in contrast to McCrazy and the juvenile cowboy in the White House.
McCain In 2003: ‘I Absolutely Don’t Believe’ Military Service Alone Qualifies Somebody For President»
McGrampa has proved that he'll surrender to the enemy
Fanon @ 72:
So when John Adams wrote those letters to Abigail from 'France' he was really in Atlantic City? With the young JQ Adams?
Mon Dieu!
Rasputin,
One small disagreement. I posses male genetilia.
Clark used poor words. That is PAINFULLY clear. The theme he was presenting, as John Amato puts it rather succinctly, was that military service isn't a pre-requisite to becoming POTUS. That is a point that needs to be made since John McCain reminds us every thirty words that POW and Hanoi are his two favorite words (phrases?). However, saying that his service is not a qualification (that it DOES NOT COUNT when one is looking at the quality of a candidate) for being POTUS is asinine. It runs against the point Clark himself repeatedly made: that McCain's willingness to serve speaks to his character. The comments being asinine consists in supposition required to support both of the points made above: that a person's character is not germane to deciding their fitness to serve as POTUS. Only a fool would agree with that, and I dare say that Clark is not so foolish.
He is shooting himself in the foot for not putting that point to rest. He fails to do so at the cost of killing any possibility for a candid discussion within the MSM of the value of John McCain's service as regards his judgment. And anyone reading this far into the comments knows what a monumental task that was even before Clark gave the MSM this red herring.
Remember kids: always consider HOW you are saying WHAT you are saying.
miss_kitty @ 136:
I like Clark's closing comment that people took what he said out of context, then politicized it. that was a perfect response to Abrams. why the hell should clark apologize for a snippet?
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