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Hitchens Gets Waterboarded: "Believe Me, It's Torture"

  In order to determine whether or not "water boarding" is indeed torture, Vanity Fair's Christopher Hitchens decided to do the most logical thing: experience it first hand.

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“If waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture.”

Vanity Fair:

Arms already lost to me, I wasn’t able to flail as I was pushed onto a sloping board and positioned with my head lower than my heart. (That’s the main point: the angle can be slight or steep.) Then my legs were lashed together so that the board and I were one single and trussed unit. Not to bore you with my phobias, but if I don’t have at least two pillows I wake up with acid reflux and mild sleep apnea, so even a merely supine position makes me uneasy. And, to tell you something I had been keeping from myself as well as from my new experimental friends, I do have a fear of drowning that comes from a bad childhood moment on the Isle of Wight, when I got out of my depth. As a boy reading the climactic torture scene of 1984, where what is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world, I realize that somewhere in my version of that hideous chamber comes the moment when the wave washes over me. Not that that makes me special: I don’t know anyone who likes the idea of drowning. As mammals we may have originated in the ocean, but water has many ways of reminding us that when we are in it we are out of our element. In brief, when it comes to breathing, give me good old air every time.

The entire terrifying account is truly worth the read. It's also important to remember, as Hitchens explains, that his experience would end the moment he wanted it to and that he would be returned afterwards to his rather privileged life; not some dark cell for an indefinite period of time under the harshest of conditions. Whether or not one thinks the United States should be using this "technique" is (I guess?) open for debate. What's not, however, is the fact that it is torture. Can we all agree on that already, please?

And in case you needed anything more to feel outraged/ashamed about today, check out this story from The New York Times about where the Gitmo "interrogtation techniques" originated from:

The military trainers who came to Guantánamo Bay in December 2002 based an entire interrogation class on a chart showing the effects of “coercive management techniques” for possible use on prisoners, including “sleep deprivation,” “prolonged constraint,” and “exposure.”

What the trainers did not say, and may not have known, was that their chart had been copied verbatim from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean War to obtain confessions, many of them false, from American prisoners.

As John Cole wonders, "Can the indictments start now?"



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192 comments

i wonder if beer boarding would have been a better
choice for christopher

How America has dealth with this torture issue, tells me what kind of country you really are.

Does Dewars and water count as water torture for Hitchens?

Why does anyone cares what Richards thinks? I mean, he is not a journalist or anything. Is it because he is an outspoken atheist?

I can't think of any one better to waterboard, except maybe for some terrorists.

Where was this besotted fuckwit in 2005?

Now imagine it without the kid gloves and a healthy dose of animosity.

No, it's not torture at all.

Would of been better if the people doing the waterboarding did not speak his English, stripped him naked, shoved a broom handle up his ass, put a rucksack over his head before the waterboarding started. Would of been more realistic.

Don't worry, Snuggly, the Security Bear will protect Hitch.

http://www.markfiore.com/constitutional_compromise_0

karl @ 1:

i wonder if beer boarding would have been a better
choice for christopher

I was going to say gin martinis.
wow, he really does have phobias. Although I think he's a pussy, I have to give him credit for trying.

harley @ 8:

Would of been better if the people doing the waterboarding did not speak his English, stripped him naked, shoved a broom handle up his ass, put a rucksack over his head before the waterboarding started. Would of been more realistic.

That ranks along side with being on the Isle of Wight on a sunday, banned by the Geneva convention.
IOW wonderful place for short visits...

Here's a lawyer's joke that goes out to AG Michael Mukasey:

Q: What do you call a prosecutor who knows a serious crime has been committed and doesn't seek an indictment?

A: Accessory after the fact.

Laugh it up while you can Mssrs. Ashcroft, Gonzales, and Mukasey. Your time will come.

MsJoanne @ 7:

Now imagine it without the kid gloves and a healthy dose of animosity.

No, it's not torture at all.

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. (actually, yours and harley @8)

I'd love to administer the experiment to John Yoo. Really.

now suit the bastard up and let him patrol Basra

Would it be bad form to say listening to Christopher Hitchens blather on about anything on TV is a form of torture?

America is diseased to allow this kind of torture to go on.

What the trainers did not say, and may not have known, was that their chart had been copied verbatim from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean War to obtain confessions, many of them false, from American prisoners.

They were false confessions, just to stop the torture? No kidding? /sarcasm

I'm a liberal and I'm FOR waterboarding and torture.

That's because I really can't think of a fairer way to punish the Bush Administration and their supporters

If capital punishment for political corruption becomes law, then I will no longer support torture.

How much water did they douse him with? A cup?

mudshark @ 10:

karl @ 1:

i wonder if beer boarding would have been a better
choice for christopher

I was going to say gin martinis.
wow, he really does have phobias. Although I think he's a pussy, I have to give him credit for trying.

You tell him, tough guy.That goes for the rest of the mowroons up stream who think it's funny to make booze jokes about our "proud, courageous soldiers" torturing people. I wonder, I truly do if the reaction to the first captured Us soldier who is shown in a grainy video being tortured will produce the same har har funny jokes?

mudshark @ 19:

How much water did they douse him with? A cup?

see the dixie cup in the backround

nyguy @ 4:

Why does anyone cares what Richards thinks? I mean, he is not a journalist or anything. Is it because he is an outspoken atheist?

You're tired. I know. It's late. Go to bed. C&L will be here tomorrow.

Hitchens is an asshole but he is smarter and better educated than all of us combined and he writes like a dream.

Now, he was the perfect guy for this demonstration because he supported the war and all the crap!!

Next should be Kit Bond R-MO.

It didn't take long to drop the metal bars!!

Otay @ 17:

What the trainers did not say, and may not have known, was that their chart had been copied verbatim from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean War to obtain confessions, many of them false, from American prisoners.

They were false confessions, just to stop the torture? No kidding? /sarcasm

At least make the effort to change a couple words. Verbatim is just being plain lazy. I understanding saving some some tax bucks but come on, add a little flair to it.

Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 18:

I'm a liberal and I'm FOR waterboarding and torture.

That's because I really can't think of a fairer way to punish the Bush Administration and their supporters

If capital punishment for political corruption becomes law, then I will no longer support torture.

Treason and War Profiteering are both punishable by death.

bob dobbs @ 20:

mudshark @ 10:

karl @ 1:

i wonder if beer boarding would have been a better
choice for christopher

I was going to say gin martinis.
wow, he really does have phobias. Although I think he's a pussy, I have to give him credit for trying.

You tell him, tough guy.That goes for the rest of the mowroons up stream who think it's funny to make booze jokes about our "proud, courageous soldiers" torturing people. I wonder, I truly do if the reaction to the first captured Us soldier who is shown in a grainy video being tortured will produce the same har har funny jokes?

easy does it... just having some fun at christopher's expense

bob dobbs @ 20:

mudshark @ 10:

karl @ 1:

i wonder if beer boarding would have been a better
choice for christopher

I was going to say gin martinis.
wow, he really does have phobias. Although I think he's a pussy, I have to give him credit for trying.

You tell him, tough guy.That goes for the rest of the mowroons up stream who think it's funny to make booze jokes about our "proud, courageous soldiers" torturing people. I wonder, I truly do if the reaction to the first captured Us soldier who is shown in a grainy video being tortured will produce the same har har funny jokes?

Hey boob. blow it out yer arse . this went over yer head boob.

I wonder how many people realize that the US government (John Yoo report /regulations) torture rules allows anybody to be tortured,
including wives and children of suspects, which includes US citizens, US residents, visiting aliens, detainees etc.
as long as the potential goal of retrieving information seems really important at the time.

Ol' Hitch is not exactly the picture of health these days, is he? I'd recommend he change his lifestyle and see his physician.

Hitchens is frequently an ass. But I give him extraordinary kudos for this.

It is torture. It was torture when the Japanese did it, it was torture when the Khmer Rouge did it, it was torture when Tomas de Torquemada did it, and it's torture when you do it.

Anyone who denies that waterboarding is torture is a twat.

Hitchens isn't even wet
Not the kind of waterboarding I have seen on TV where the whole body was dunked under.

I don't think it is cool to make sport of the disease of addiction.

Progressives are better than that.

ferrofluid (Obama 08) @ 28:

I wonder how many people realize that the US government (John Yoo report /regulations) torture rules allows anybody to be tortured,
including wives and children of suspects, which includes US citizens, US residents, visiting aliens, detainees etc.
as long as the potential goal of retrieving information seems really important at the time.

Yoo is on my personal detainee list should law and order break down. That fucking traitor.

Carol @ 31:

Hitchens isn't even wet
Not the kind of waterboarding I have seen on TV where the whole body was dunked under.

this was much more effecient and less dramatic. those guys had done this MANY times. it was almost effortless on their part.

and quickly made Hitch feel very squishy.

BobbyG @ 33:

ferrofluid (Obama 08) @ 28:

I wonder how many people realize that the US government (John Yoo report /regulations) torture rules allows anybody to be tortured,
including wives and children of suspects, which includes US citizens, US residents, visiting aliens, detainees etc.
as long as the potential goal of retrieving information seems really important at the time.

Yoo is on my personal detainee list should law and order break down. That fucking traitor.

try it on yoo...yoo

Carol @ 31:

Hitchens isn't even wet
Not the kind of waterboarding I have seen on TV where the whole body was dunked under.

The actually waterboarding is at a much steeper angle. All most 90 degrees - strive for that total helpless feeling.

What?!? Do any of you think that BEING GODLY... or paying lip service to Christain values would make Hitchens' observations more valuable... or more right?

Don't be absurd! It was our "I have Jesus in my heart" president that got us into this horrendous situation in the first place. Christain conservatives seem to scream the loudest to support the fact that this country is condoning TORTURE on prisoners.

What Would Jesus Do... hold the prisoner's nose shut... or pour the water into his gaping, gagging mouth?

Athiests are able to recognize travesties of justice too. Actually, maybe athiests are BETTER at it... considering what all of our GOD FEARING Republican leaders have accomplished since 9/11.

BobbyG @ 33:

ferrofluid (Obama 08) @ 28:

I wonder how many people realize that the US government (John Yoo report /regulations) torture rules allows anybody to be tortured,
including wives and children of suspects, which includes US citizens, US residents, visiting aliens, detainees etc.
as long as the potential goal of retrieving information seems really important at the time.

Yoo is on my personal detainee list should law and order break down. That fucking traitor.

They serve a higher master than America and the US constitution. The REPUBLICAN (org crime) family and its godsquad brownshirts.

Yoo and Addington testify, Hitchins demonstrates (as has been done before) that waterboarding is torture yet ... where is no support for impeachment? ... Here is some Bush admin comentary on torture mashed up in a video with a protest song - what an Extraordinary Rendition of America the Bushies represent.

Poor guy didn't even get a complimentary photo-op with Lynndie England.

Hey boob. blow it out yer arse . this went over yer head boob.

Such a witty guy. Go back to Fresno, freeper.

roobeer @ 41:

Poor guy didn't even get a complimentary photo-op with Lynndie England.

No volunteers to complete the naked human pyramid. Total lack of patriotism on their parts.

hey, sorry for going off-topic, but can you believe george w. bush plans to visit monticello on the 4th? talk about tempting the fates. either chimpy gets edjumicated, or he incurs the wrath of a thousand locusts.

.
.
.
? tj know da secret door muthafucka

bob dobbs @ 42:

Hey boob. blow it out yer arse . this went over yer head boob.

Such a witty guy. Go back to Fresno, freeper.

LOL, you're alright bob. heh. Fresno.
close, but not quite. You got the state right.
wow, never been called a freeper before.
But obviously this went over your head bob.
thats ok. we'll work it out some other time.
Have a nice evening Bob.

roobeer @ 41:

Poor guy didn't even get a complimentary photo-op with Lynndie England.

its weirder than fiction, her story

He thought someone said 'be teabagged by Andrew Sullivan".

From the NYTimes article
China Inspired Interrogations at Guantánamo

.. The 1957 article from which the chart was copied was entitled “Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions From Air Force Prisoners of War” and written by Albert D. Biderman, a sociologist then working for the Air Force, who died in 2003. Mr. Biderman had interviewed American prisoners returning from North Korea, some of whom had been filmed by their Chinese interrogators confessing to germ warfare and other atrocities.

Those orchestrated confessions led to allegations that the American prisoners had been “brainwashed,” and provoked the military to revamp its training to give some military personnel a taste of the enemies’ harsh methods to inoculate them against quick capitulation if captured.

In 2002, the training program, known as SERE, for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape, became a source of interrogation methods both for the C.I.A. and the military. In what critics describe as a remarkable case of historical amnesia, officials who drew on the SERE program appear to have been unaware that it had been created as a result of concern about false confessions by American prisoners.

Senator Carl Levin, Democrat of Michigan and chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said after reviewing the 1957 article that “every American would be shocked” by the origin of the training document.

“What makes this document doubly stunning is that these were techniques to get false confessions,” Mr. Levin said. “People say we need intelligence, and we do. But we don’t need false intelligence.”
..

The administration KNEW they would get false confessions.

In fact they PLANNED on getting false confessions.

Why?

Obviously we can't discuss "who is responsible for the 9-11 attacks" here .. but it's gotta he OBVIOUS by now that the Bush administration has gone to great lengths to cover up who is responsible.

Right?

I've searched in vain for the link, but I recall it was Addington, Cheney's Chief of Staff, who requested that the SERE techniques be used at Guantanamo.

abarts @ 47:

He thought someone said 'be teabagged by Andrew Sullivan".

that's fxxking funny

i'll die stapled to the cross w/ my nuts sawed off before i let my german-american grandma endure another carpet bombing...

CowBoy Bob in Austin @ 38:

What?!? Do any of you think that BEING GODLY... or paying lip service to Christain values would make Hitchens' observations more valuable... or more right?

Don't be absurd! It was our "I have Jesus in my heart" president that got us into this horrendous situation in the first place. Christain conservatives seem to scream the loudest to support the fact that this country is condoning TORTURE on prisoners.

What Would Jesus Do... hold the prisoner's nose shut... or pour the water into his gaping, gagging mouth?

Athiests are able to recognize travesties of justice too. Actually, maybe athiests are BETTER at it... considering what all of our GOD FEARING Republican leaders have accomplished since 9/11.

I was a little upset reading a few of the anti-atheist comments, but then I realized people were probably just venting over Hitchens being an War-on-Terror supporter and only now realizing what happened because of this "war". The "atheist" comment (I hope) was just superfluous.

marko @ 32:

I don't think it is cool to make sport of the disease of addiction.

Progressives are better than that.

"Progressives are better than that" Another bullshit catch phrase used by Repubs in the middle of a serious and vicious fight on weak minded "liberals". Maybe you should check "yourself" with all of your daily Obama smearing.

MountainMan23 @ 48:

From the NYTimes article
China Inspired Interrogations at Guantánamo

.. The 1957 article from which the chart was copied was entitled “Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions From Air Force Prisoners of War” and written by Albert D. Biderman, a sociologist then working for the Air Force, who died in 2003. Mr. Biderman had interviewed American prisoners returning from North Korea, some of whom had been filmed by their Chinese interrogators confessing to germ warfare and other atrocities.

Those orchestrated confessions led to allegations that the American prisoners had been “brainwashed,” and provoked the military to revamp its training to give some military personnel a taste of the enemies’ harsh methods to inoculate them against quick capitulation if captured.

In 2002, the training program, known as SERE, for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape, became a source of interrogation methods both for the C.I.A. and the military. In what critics describe as a remarkable case of historical amnesia, officials who drew on the SERE program appear to have been unaware that it had been created as a result of concern about false confessions by American prisoners.

Senator Carl Levin, Democrat of Michigan and chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said after reviewing the 1957 article that “every American would be shocked” by the origin of the training document.

“What makes this document doubly stunning is that these were techniques to get false confessions,” Mr. Levin said. “People say we need intelligence, and we do. But we don’t need false intelligence.”
..

The administration KNEW they would get false confessions.

In fact they PLANNED on getting false confessions.

Why?

Obviously we can't discuss "who is responsible for the 9-11 attacks" here .. but it's gotta he OBVIOUS by now that the Bush administration has gone to great lengths to cover up who is responsible.

Right?

I've searched in vain for the link, but I recall it was Addington, Cheney's Chief of Staff, who requested that the SERE techniques be used at Guantanamo.

i've always believed they wanted to piss off the arabs
keep the opposition engauged i don't support the alleged bad guys i support the constitution....just like the habeus corpus case obama supported it saying they have the right to request a hearing that's all he said the key word is request
the trolls want to say we support the terrorists....doesn't make any sense darwin is rolling around in his grave

Is this the same asshole who supported torture and the US involvement in Iraq?

Amazing .. I quote the article .. and point out that it is OBVIOUS that the Bush administration WANTED false confessions about the perpetration of 9-11 .. and the post disappears .. technical glitch or censorship?

MountainMan23 @ 55:

Amazing .. I quote the article .. and point out that it is OBVIOUS that the Bush administration WANTED false confessions about the perpetration of 9-11 .. and the post disappears .. technical glitch or censorship?

technical glitch ..

republican = insanity!

bullfrog @ 50:

i'll die stapled to the cross w/ my nuts sawed off before i let my german-american grandma endure another carpet bombing...

Hey bullfrog, what does his have to do with this thread. just wonderin.

I just can't believe the question exists. I always say:

If it's not torture, then how does it work???

and hitchens even supports the wars in the mid east. what a guy!

Yes, would not surprise me one bit to learn that the admin wanted false confessions as a means to convict these people, instead of as a means to obtain any information.

Hitchens looks as if he just swallowed something.....not all of it though, some got on his shirt.

Ignoring Hitchens' previous remarks, he's mostly a guy raised in the West with some phobias of not continuing to live. Yes, this demonstration was far "easier" than what our detainees face - isn't that the point? Those of you who read C&L regularly and check out the links for the full story know damn well that waterboarding is one of the least damaging tactics the US uses. Add threats of wives and children being raped after the detainee has been sodomized with a broom handle or an auger...as ferrofluid reminds us, "the US government (John Yoo report /regulations) torture rules allows anybody to be tortured, including wives and children of suspects".

The courts just threw out the death penalty for rapists of children. Perhaps they should consider the US interrogation techniques - break a person's life, you get broken. I'd support that. Treason? Yup, let's waterboard. War crimes? Waterboard! It's not torture, it's the latest and greatest in humane rehabilitation!

JC in Kentucky @ 5:

I can't think of any one better to waterboard, except maybe for some terrorists.

Gee, let me think-
John Ashcroft
Joshua Bolten
G.W.Bush
G.H.W.Bush
Dick Cheney
Alberto Gonzales
Sean Hannity
Rush Limbaugh
Michael Mukasey
Condoleezza Rice
Donald Rumsfeld
Karl Rove
Well you get the idea!

Add to the above list in #64:

Karen Hughes
Ari Fleischer
Dana Perino
Scott McClellan
David Addington
John Yoo
Paul Wolfowitz
Colonoscopy Powell

Let me know when Ann Coulter is ready to undergo the same treatment, so she can remind us again about how it's just "dripping water down the noses of terrorists."

Doug Feith

lafin gas @ 64:

JC in Kentucky @ 5:

I can't think of any one better to waterboard, except maybe for some terrorists.

Gee, let me think-

Rush Limbaugh

Not the $400M chickenhawk. He runs America, just ask him.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was boarded 100 times in 2 weeks.

The guy is scum and should, after a fair trial, probably be locked up (IMHO) for life. But this is not justice. After two sessions he probably told them anything they wanted to know. What did they possibly hope to gain with the other 98 attempts? Propaganda?

It just doesn't make any sense, unless they enjoyed doing it.

Biggus Diggus @ 67:

Doug Feith

major player

MountainMan23 @ 48:

From the NYTimes article
China Inspired Interrogations at Guantánamo

.. The 1957 article from which the chart was copied was entitled “Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions From Air Force Prisoners of War” and written by Albert D. Biderman, a sociologist then working for the Air Force, who died in 2003. Mr. Biderman had interviewed American prisoners returning from North Korea, some of whom had been filmed by their Chinese interrogators confessing to germ warfare and other atrocities.

Those orchestrated confessions led to allegations that the American prisoners had been “brainwashed,” and provoked the military to revamp its training to give some military personnel a taste of the enemies’ harsh methods to inoculate them against quick capitulation if captured.

In 2002, the training program, known as SERE, for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape, became a source of interrogation methods both for the C.I.A. and the military. In what critics describe as a remarkable case of historical amnesia, officials who drew on the SERE program appear to have been unaware that it had been created as a result of concern about false confessions by American prisoners.

Senator Carl Levin, Democrat of Michigan and chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said after reviewing the 1957 article that “every American would be shocked” by the origin of the training document.

“What makes this document doubly stunning is that these were techniques to get false confessions,” Mr. Levin said. “People say we need intelligence, and we do. But we don’t need false intelligence.”
..

The administration KNEW they would get false confessions.

In fact they PLANNED on getting false confessions.

Why?

Obviously we can't discuss "who is responsible for the 9-11 attacks" here .. but it's gotta he OBVIOUS by now that the Bush administration has gone to great lengths to cover up who is responsible.

Right?

I've searched in vain for the link, but I recall it was Addington, Cheney's Chief of Staff, who requested that the SERE techniques be used at Guantanamo.

The whole end game is to keep fanning the flames of America's enemies, so that we can keep fighting them and keep throwing no bid contracts to Halliburton. It's that simple.

Cheney is a beast. He doesn't give a rat's furry behind if America is safe, he only cares if he can make money by pretending to keep America safe. He wants to keep the conflicts going all over the world. Torture is a good way to keep the animosity going.

Hitchen's first remark was "it isn't simulated drowning .. it IS drowning" is something I've wanted to YELL at every news article I've seen that says "waterboarding simulates drowning."

Just another example of the COMPLICIT CORPORATE MEDIA.

The actual reports I've read of real waterboarding include the torturer punching the victim repeatedly in the stomach and diaphragm to force the water from his lungs .. to revive him so they could do it again .. and again ..

what's the point for this? The guy comes off (and not just now) as an attention whore. Any mildly rational person would agree that waterboarding is torture, it's not something new and has been documented (see Alfred McCoy's book "A question of torture"). So, this guy comes along and says "well, it IS torture, I HAVE tried it" like some type of authority. Unless he's doing it out of guilt for cheerleading what led to more than 4,000 US troop and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths, I don't give a flying fuck what he says.

Hitchens' outrageous accent and politics are incoherent usually but this one time is obviously speaking truth.

It was torture for Hitchens because there was no scotch in the water!

Question: why don't we require every member of Congress go through this procedure? Particularly if they have the attitude that waterboarding is not torture, and are ready to vote on the conviction that it is not.

i am for putting bush, cheney, condi and all the rest of this
bastard administration in gitmo and WATERBOARDING them
daily until they fess up to all the crimes they committed
during the last 8 yrs.

it's only fair that they be treated the same respect
contempt they have shown to the entire American Citizens
and world.

KansasCityFaGt @ 22:

nyguy @ 4:

Why does anyone cares what Richards thinks? I mean, he is not a journalist or anything. Is it because he is an outspoken atheist?

You're tired. I know. It's late. Go to bed. C&L will be here tomorrow.

You failed to make any point. tsk...

[deleted--David, you know better than this. Don't advocate violence on this site--towards anybody.]

Otay @ 76:

Question: why don't we require every member of Congress go through this procedure? Particularly if they have the attitude that waterboarding is not torture, and are ready to vote on the conviction that it is not.

I suggest Pelosi shows some leadership and takes a "ride" for each one of them. I will be charitable about it. She gets a 30 second air break after each waterboarding.

nyguy @ 4:

Why does anyone cares what Richards thinks? I mean, he is not a journalist or anything. Is it because he is an outspoken atheist?

Well, he's a well known writer, and is often seen on TV. If he's using his celebrity for a good cause; then good for him. Torture is wrong. It should not be supported. Do we really want to be known as a country that grabs people off the street, who are often innocent of any wrongdoing, shipping them away to secret prisons, and torturing them?

Think about the damage that's been done. Psychologically, physically, and to their lives in general.

Don't you think that some of those people have families? Imagine if someone with a wife and kids suddenly disappears for YEARS.
What do you think happens to that family?

Imagine if YOU, or a loved one just vanished one day? Think about the anguish you would feel.

What if years later you found out they were hidden away and tortured?

I also have to wonder about what kind of person would think that such actions are totally fine.

Didn't they used to execute people for such crimes? That's a rhetorical question. I know for a fact that they did.

You will, no doubt, have a person trying to be hard-core, trying to make it seem like Hitchens is a pussy. Whether or not waterboarding is 'torture,' is somewhat of a shibboleth. If you can justify what is 'infliction of extreme pain' for the interest of national security,' than torture is somewhat a moot point. Any amount of 'inflicted pain' is necessary and justified if you buy those parameters.

Che's Lounge @ 69:

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was boarded 100 times in 2 weeks.

The guy is scum and should, after a fair trial, probably be locked up (IMHO) for life. But this is not justice. After two sessions he probably told them anything they wanted to know. What did they possibly hope to gain with the other 98 attempts? Propaganda?

It just doesn't make any sense, unless they enjoyed doing it.

yes partly for enjoyment also revenge on the enemy and also to permanently break the mind of the victim.
Also its prob was done for training purposes of new TLA and contractors, plus desensitizes people so they will go do worse.
No matter how gungho people talk about 'go getting them' in training, they still need blooding with real pain and techniques on real victims.

David Ehrenstein @ 79:

[deleted quote]

Why do you say that? Why would you wish the man harm?

Has he done something to you personally?

Like I said earlier; you have to wonder what kind of people would think torture is acceptable.

I guess you're the person I should ask about such issues. So tell me David. Why do you want to hurt people?

FWIW, here's a link to the straight dope posting of someone who tried waterboarding to see what it was all about. His description of the psychological effect it had is even more chilling than Hitchens's...

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717

This is sad. A man goes through this and he is attacked. What's going on?

P.D. @ 86:

This is sad. A man goes through this and he is attacked. What's going on?

He didn't go through squat P.D.
His own phobias were worse on him that that cup of water.
But as I said upthread, I give him credit for trying.

P.D. @ 86:

This is sad. A man goes through this and he is attacked. What's going on?

Called changing the subject that Neocons use so well.

P.D. @ 86:

This is sad. A man goes through this and he is attacked. What's going on?

Easy to explain. We have sadists in our country. Lots of them.

We also have people in this country who are amoral, uncaring and greedy. They would gladly see people die if it satisfies their ideals.

They especially hate people who are different. In fact, they both fear AND hate them. If there are people in the world who are different from them lets them know that their worldview might not be the only one. That's something they can't tolerate. Their psyches are too fragile for that.

That's it, in a nutshell.

We are reduced to this? America? What happened? Oh yeah, BUSH!

mudshark @ 87:

P.D. @ 86:

This is sad. A man goes through this and he is attacked. What's going on?

He didn't go through squat P.D.
His own phobias were worse on him that that cup of water.
But as I said upthread, I give him credit for trying.

Hitchen's isn't the only person who's tried waterboarding. They pretty much ALL agree with him. It's torture.

Say what you will about Hitchens, but at least he had the guts to go through a waterboarding. You know, the good kind of waterboarding, if there is one, where clean filtered water is used and he gets to signal when he has had enough.

The real waterboarding that goes on is much, much dirtier. And it continues.

marko @ 23:

Hitchens is an asshole but he is smarter and better educated than all of us combined and he writes like a dream.

Now, he was the perfect guy for this demonstration because he supported the war and all the crap!!

Next should be Kit Bond R-MO.

It didn't take long to drop the metal bars!!

Oh, can we make it Steve King (R-IA) instead? He's such a tool.

Well, I suppose if that's the criteria let's add Cry Me A River Boner, too.

P.D. @ 86:

This is sad. A man goes through this and he is attacked. What's going on?

Why? Hitchens did his far share of water carrying before doing the water boarding.

I'll take a Hitchens or Buckley conservative any day over Bush and the neocons. At least there's some intelligence to argue against.

P.D. @ 90:

We are reduced to this? America? What happened? Oh yeah, BUSH!

It wasn't just Bush. It was people like Rockefeller, Cheney, Rove, Reagan (I know I'll get flamed for that). It was also companies JP Morgan, GE, Haliburton, all the major oil companies.

It was a whole lot of people with a vested interest in having this country become fascists. Also notice how most of those people, and companies are bleeding this country dry of money.

They are NOT pro America. They are all about lining their pockets and gaining power.

They would be perfectly happy if we all became slaves.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that's their ultimate goal.

Based on his position on the war in Iraq I assume Hitchens supports John McCain for President. Maybe this experience will broaden his perspective.

Numinous @ 91:

mudshark @ 87:

P.D. @ 86:

This is sad. A man goes through this and he is attacked. What's going on?

He didn't go through squat P.D.
His own phobias were worse on him that that cup of water.
But as I said upthread, I give him credit for trying.

Hitchen's isn't the only person who's tried waterboarding. They pretty much ALL agree with him. It's torture.

I'm not saying that waterboarding isn't torture. All I'm saying is that was a poor exhibition of what happens when someone is waterboarded.. But I do give him credit for trying it with a phobia of water. I think his own mind did the most damage in this instance.

And Hitch got the very easiest waterboarding experience possible, he should try it with people who don't care if he lives or dies, no safe words no signals, just the whim of someone who seems to really hate you.

The truth is out there but you will NEVER find it an "official report"

My husband and I are thinking about going to Canada. I love this country, but damn it! something has got to change. I thought Kerry would win, but no. Maybe I'll be better off abroad, anything than this.

As I've made clear for the past 5 years I'd have been happy to let the indictments began 5 years ago! To do THAT would have been following American and American military law! It's time to put an end to the lawlessness and bring the criminals of the bush administration to justice starting today!

Numinous @ 96, I agree and you wouldn't get any flame from me for including ronny ray gun!

"Whether or not one thinks the United States should be using this “technique” is (I guess?) open for debate." (a quote from LoudMouthedPatriot)

LoudMouthedPatriot--you seriously gotta get another job on some other blog. seriously. you have once again left me, well, breathless...once again, your words have left me feeling like i've been waterboarded. why on earth would you give any ground on whether or not we should be using this "technique"?

Just as soon as the above quote has left your fingertips, in the very next sentence you (fortunately?!) concede (?!) that waterboarding is torture... and in so doing, one up yourself in the flabbergast-inducing department--if it's torture, correct me if i'm wrong here, but then it's not open to debate as to whether or not we should be using this technique!

for the love of god, someone please spray a hose in LoudMouth's ear and put the fire out in his/her brain.

.
Rightwing News website has a a poll that asks if waterboarding or torture is justifiable.

How about a poll for the sheep that asks if torture is illegal. How about another poll that asks what country do they think they live in : Syria, Iraq, Iraq, North Korea, or the USofA?
.

P.D. @ 100:

My husband and I are thinking about going to Canada. I love this country, but damn it! something has got to change. I thought Kerry would win, but no. Maybe I'll be better off abroad, anything than this.

I all ready got a safe haven in Panama. Little house on 70 acres with 1500 feet beachfront on the Gulf of Panama. Bought it in 2002. Best money I ever spent. Knowing it is waiting for me is very helpful to my state of mind.

harley @ 105:

P.D. @ 100:

My husband and I are thinking about going to Canada. I love this country, but damn it! something has got to change. I thought Kerry would win, but no. Maybe I'll be better off abroad, anything than this.

I all ready got a safe haven in Panama. Little house on 70 acres with 1500 feet beachfront on the Gulf of Panama. Bought it in 2002. Best money I ever spent. Knowing it is waiting for me is very helpful to my state of mind.

wow, you got 1500 acres? Nice.
I got one down on the east cape region of the tip of Baja. yeah, it helps the head stay in a better place. plus it's warm in the winter time.

These techniques Did Not originate with the Communists:

The techniques were diagrammed and spelled out earlier, in Gestapo manuals (View a photocopy online of an original at GW University's National Security Archives) produced in the 30's, are identical (except for the sexual perversion) to all of the torture techniques used by the CIA (and who knows what other agents of the US gov) since the disastrous National Security Act was passed under Truman. The Gestapo’s favorite techniques (yielding terror and false confessions, not accurate info) included a combination of sensory deprivation (with or without sensory overload), self-inflicted pain (stress positions etc), environmental stress (hot, cold etc), sleep deprivation, controlled starvation, with or without asphyxiation techniques(such as water boarding). Remember the Abu Ghraib photos of thugs torturing with asphyxiation by sitting on the board sandwiched chests of their civilian prisoners. Many die from asphyxiation techniques. One of the few convictions for U.S. torture in Iraq was for the asphyxiation torture death of uniformed Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush (the heavy set officer that officially surrendered to Gen Schwarzkopf at the end of Gulf War I) who had turned himself in for questioning while the U.S. was holding members of his family. He had been water-boarded but died while tightly bound head-first in a sleeping bag. Celebrities and pundits, who undergo fake water-boarding, help to trivialize one of the worst tortures in history.

Through "Operation Paperclip", the US secreted many Nazi war criminals to the US, not just rocket scientists, but sadistic torturers (among multiple other categories) so as to learn what they knew. It was therefore obvious from the very beginning (starting in 2001 at Bagram) to those with even a cursory knowledge of this history, that the 1st accounts coming out of Bagram air force base in Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo, and all the rest meant not just isolated, rogue or poorly trained soldiers being cruel but the top-down institution of the Gestapo’s techniques as the policy of the Bush administration. It has been reported in the last several months that Bush is now "rendering" and torturing 10's of thousands of people on a world-wide network of prison ships. (He stole that idea from the British).

The Soviets had their own version of “Operation Paperclip” and learned from the Germans as well. The big joke after World War II was that the US could brag that “our German scientists are better than the your (the Soviets) German scientists”.

It is quite curious that those who should know better would claim that these techniques were studied scientifically and perfected by the fascists, not the communists. That is not to say that all of the powerful democracies (including the U.S.) have used torture (and terrorism) extensively for over a century. The U.S. killed and tortured the people of the Philippines by the hundreds of thousands at the turn of the last century.

No need to blame the Communists on this one.. Makes you wonder what the source of the story was.

Peace, JK

P.D. @ 100:

My husband and I are thinking about going to Canada. I love this country, but damn it! something has got to change. I thought Kerry would win, but no. Maybe I'll be better off abroad, anything than this.

Given my druthers, I want to move to Belgium. But I am looking into Windsor, Ontario. I am working in Detroit next week and will be taking many evening cruises to look at houses.

Evan Yeung @ 85:

FWIW, here's a link to the straight dope posting of someone who tried waterboarding to see what it was all about. His description of the psychological effect it had is even more chilling than Hitchens's...

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717

People...please read this post. PLEASE. This is a man who has built his body to the limits of endurance and he can't stand waterboarding.

I feel shame that I am one of those who cannot break the shell of being nice to people in order to stand up and fling shit in the eyes of this administration. I need an anger management class - one in which I'm informed of how to direct my anger towards the flaming bastards that do this.

A Bush Administration Justice Department official underwent the proceedure and said that waterboarding was torture. Waterboarding obviously qualifies as torture.

reasons for bush chenay tortures , cover your ass for 911, even granny grunts would confess to being involved!

P.D. @ 100:

My husband and I are thinking about going to Canada. I love this country, but damn it! something has got to change. I thought Kerry would win, but no. Maybe I'll be better off abroad, anything than this.

it doesn't seem like were in control of our country or lives sometimes.........new zealand

Sorry about the grammatical and composition errors above (#108).

The next to last paragraph should read something like:

...It is quite curious that those who should know better would claim that these techniques, which were studied scientifically and perfected by the fascists, were created by or copied from the communists...

Peace, JK

Tiki @ 110:

Evan Yeung @ 85:

FWIW, here's a link to the straight dope posting of someone who tried waterboarding to see what it was all about. His description of the psychological effect it had is even more chilling than Hitchens's...

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717

People...please read this post. PLEASE. This is a man who has built his body to the limits of endurance and he can't stand waterboarding.

I feel shame that I am one of those who cannot break the shell of being nice to people in order to stand up and fling shit in the eyes of this administration. I need an anger management class - one in which I'm informed of how to direct my anger towards the flaming bastards that do this.

oh man i couldnt have said it better

I guess Hitchens found out it wasn't no picnic, at least compared to the whiskeyboarding he's accustomed to.

mudshark @ 106:

harley @ 105:

P.D. @ 100:

My husband and I are thinking about going to Canada. I love this country, but damn it! something has got to change. I thought Kerry would win, but no. Maybe I'll be better off abroad, anything than this.

I all ready got a safe haven in Panama. Little house on 70 acres with 1500 feet beachfront on the Gulf of Panama. Bought it in 2002. Best money I ever spent. Knowing it is waiting for me is very helpful to my state of mind.

wow, you got 1500 acres? Nice.
I got one down on the east cape region of the tip of Baja. yeah, it helps the head stay in a better place. plus it's warm in the winter time.

70 acres, 1500 feet of beach front. Right before Coronado. I like Panama because they use USDs. Mexico scared me because their currency is doing so well. Could currency depreciate your self to the curb. I have xpats friends theire and their buying power has been destroyed the last 3 years.

karl @ 112:

P.D. @ 100:

My husband and I are thinking about going to Canada. I love this country, but damn it! something has got to change. I thought Kerry would win, but no. Maybe I'll be better off abroad, anything than this.

it doesn't seem like were in control of our country or lives sometimes.........new zealand

I lived there for 19 months. As a single women you are treated like a piece of meat. Subservant, I am not. Very loooonnnggg winters. I was glad to leave.

harley @ 117:

mudshark @ 106:

harley @ 105:

P.D. @ 100:

I all ready got a safe haven in Panama. Little house on 70 acres with 1500 feet beachfront on the Gulf of Panama. Bought it in 2002. Best money I ever spent. Knowing it is waiting for me is very helpful to my state of mind.

wow, you got 1500 acres? Nice.
I got one down on the east cape region of the tip of Baja. yeah, it helps the head stay in a better place. plus it's warm in the winter time.

70 acres, 1500 feet of beach front. Right before Coronado. I like Panama because they use USDs. Mexico scared me because their currency is doing so well. Could currency depreciate your self to the curb. I have xpats friends theire and their buying power has been destroyed the last 3 years.

really?
I have 85K into my property and house(ocean view). It's worth over 300k. where I'm at it exploded. It's still going up, just not like it was a while ago. property values have not dropped where I'm at. But then again some of these folks are putting up over 2 mill to buy beachfront now. I was lucky, I got in at the ground floor when the Mex Govt first opened up beach front property for sale to fereners. : )
{Thats nice you guys, but can we get back on topic? SiteMonitor}

B O D H I S A T T V A ...

No ifs, ands, or buts.

harley @ 118:

karl @ 112:

P.D. @ 100:

My husband and I are thinking about going to Canada. I love this country, but damn it! something has got to change. I thought Kerry would win, but no. Maybe I'll be better off abroad, anything than this.

it doesn't seem like were in control of our country or lives sometimes.........new zealand

I lived there for 19 months. As a single women you are treated like a piece of meat. Subservant, I am not. Very loooonnnggg winters. I was glad to leave.

honestly i don't much about nz but it looks beautiful
ok now back on topic

fuck hitchens

it took an actual experience of being waterboarded for him to accept that it is torture???

we prosecuted the japanese for doing less

stupid ass drunken war mongerer

Did Christopher Hitchens confess?

I thought Christopher Hitchens was supposed to be a really smart guy. Do you have to stick your arm into an open flame to know that fire is hot. Bugs Bunny said it best, "What a maroon".

Cycle3man @ 123:

Did Christopher Hitchens confess?

he will next time hes on bill mahers doodle bug show

SadButTrue @ 12:

Here's a lawyer's joke that goes out to AG Michael Mukasey:

Q: What do you call a prosecutor who knows a serious crime has been committed and doesn't seek an indictment?

A: Accessory after the fact.

Laugh it up while you can Mssrs. Ashcroft, Gonzales, and Mukasey. Your time will come.

The problem with our current junta is, they really honestly seriously don't think they have done/are doing anything wrong. It's completely outside their scope of comprehension. Like true racism, they think they are justified in their actions. Hitler truly believed he was doing a good thing. Saddam was defiant to the very end when that trap door opened and the rope snapped tight.

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=958764725

what ever happened to america? does it seem like the powers that be are makeing fun of you?do you get the feeling that the people who make movies these days are saying you have the mentality of a twelve year old? what ever happened to filmmakers who made movies like the long hot summer, picknic, cool hand luke , the last picture show? now they put out crap like hellboy meets the mighty hulk, captain america trys to deflower wonder woman, supermen gets laid, well you know what i mean ! every other book writtens about some stinking politican, writers are only hacks these days, tv commercials seem aimed at morons , oh wait! anyway even the tv shows suck the big one, danceing with the stars , fifty lumps vieing for supremacy on castaways, whos smarter then a fith grader , dontcha ust hate it that they got your number, oh well when they get haliburton number one ready you wont miss real intertainment ,

Hitchens next stunt is to try being drawn and quartered...good luck Chris.

One sentence and three words:

"I believe if we began impeachment proceedings we will be engulfed in more of the politics that has made Washington dysfunction." -Obama

"...off the table." -Pelosi.

Wow, it's incredible how little water that took. I thought they splashed buckets of water, so when they were pouring a bit here and there on the towel, I thought that it was just to get it wet before the big splash. That took a glass of water and a minute, and he knew he could get out of it in a split second, so there's no doubt about its effectiveness. Add to that long-term confinement, beating, deprivations, and we think we're going to get actionable confessions? Hahaha.

Bravo to Hitchens for acquiescing to the suggestion of those who thought it was indeed torture, and for acknowledging that it is.

When's Bill O'Reilly going to try this? I mean, what if he were to actually drown? Wouldn't that be just terrible? So sad.

When are the rest of the republican droolers gonna take the plunge?

Too chickenshit is probably why.

.

Q U E S T I O N:

When the Maverick Hero was in a POW camp and TORTURED, subsequently signing a confession,
What did that make the Maverick... ?

And if what the Maverick Hero signed wasn't the truth but a coerced confession designed to stop his TORTURE,
Just what does this demonstrate about the use of TORTURE?

So why is Johnny for the use of TORTURE...?

.

What the hell !???? These lunatic Bushlerites and neocon / Republicans and the right wing nuts actually trying to create doubt and debate whether water boarding is torture or not ? I sure as hell didn't need Chris Hitchens to do a test run to tell me whether or not it is torture , did you ? Un-friggin believable that there can even be any debate about it , but that is the evil and madness of the Bushlerites and the right .

Would be interesting if someone/people would take a bus and goes on a "Waterboarding tour "of the USofA. Then the people who think it's not torture could experience it for themselves -- what? they wouldn't want to take that opportunity? why not ... it's NOT torture, right?

If we are to consider water boarding a valid form of information gathering, then why don't we practice it in police stations here in the US? It seems to me that if you picked up someone who had credible knowledge of the whereabouts of drug dealers, human traffickers, kidnappers, sexual predators, etc., then a little "taste of the damp towel" would be just the prescription for getting the information necessary. Isn't the life of a kidnapped child, health of a person not yet coaxed into a life of drug addiction, etc. worth "a little discomfort". If it's so harmless, then we need it here at home to prevent crime. And if the police were mistaken, then "no harm, no foul", right? I mean, it's not like they cut off someone's head or something.

More and more I feel like we're engaged in a headlong rush to the bottom.
Post Comment Edit Cancel

Left&Left @ 52:

marko @ 32:

I don't think it is cool to make sport of the disease of addiction.

Progressives are better than that.

"Progressives are better than that" Another bullshit catch phrase used by Repubs in the middle of a serious and vicious fight on weak minded "liberals". Maybe you should check "yourself" with all of your daily Obama smearing.

I agree Left&Left. Nice guys finish last is another one. This is war for the White House: anything is allowed to rid the world of this neo-con scum. They are TORTURING people in YOUR name!!! Where is the outrage over that?? Be nice everyone. Don't offend anyone. Yeah, right!

Not only could he stop it when he wanted, it was the only torture technique he was subjected to, and it didn't go on for years. And the doctors attending to him were actually there to help him, not to create more pain, as doctors in US torture chambers do. And can we stop blaming the Chinese and communists for OUR torture? The US has been training other countries in the most unimaginably sadistic forms of torture for decades, to an extent never even approached by China, yet Americans are all shocked because we might be using torture techniques gleaned from a potential enemy, and one of another race and political system at that.

Pretty much anybody in journalism would have a motive for wearing that mask in the photo, right?

Look, mein Herren und Damen–no one here understands science! One man’s experience is MERELY AN ANECDOTE. We need controlled clinical studies to evaluate the question “is waterboarding torture.”

Deflecting about $100 million from the NIH budget should suffice. Enrolling participants should be EASY.

Why, first on the list can be Alberto Gonzalez! The Secondary Aim of the study can be “Does Waterboarding provide useful information.” If Albie says something other than “I don’t recall”, there’s you’re proof!

The enrollment can then proceed onward to include Dick Cheney, John Yoo, Rummy, Addington, Feith, Rice, Powell, Rove, etc.

There! Then we can answer this important Question!

Their must be international war crimes tribunals.

I have had problems with Chris in the past but I'll give him high marks for this one. No matter what his reasons for this, he has made a statement and will have the chattering classes squawking for weeks. Besides, how many of his detractors would go through this. It's easy to criticize, hard to take action.........I'm just sayin'...............
Let's see if he's on Morning Joke today.

God is not great..... She's Fabulous...........

Waterboarding is torture. But don't take it from that drunken moron. Take it from those in the Bush administration who volunteered to find out for themselves.

I vote that Bill 'rubber lips' Kristol should go next. Think he'll beat Hitchens' record of 17 seconds?

When I was a kid, it was called Japanese Water Torture. I am filled with rage that my tax dollars pay for something so cruel and so stupid. I hope that, for the rest of his life, whenever Bush has to pop out of his bubble, whoever has the opportunity will just look at him and say "Your legacy is torture."

Paul @ 140:

Their must be international war crimes tribunals.

The Hague? Which is part of the U.N.?

The only problem is that the United States decided it didn't want to play in that particular game. It only plays in the games where IT can make the rules and decides who WINS and who LOSES.

The fact here is that the American people and all the poor saps we've murdered, maimed and tortured all over the planet are the real losers. Bush, Cheney and all the others listed above (plus hundreds more) are laughing all the way to the bank. I wonder how many of them are converting their oil dollars into Euros?

But, never mind all this. Just be sure to pick up your little flag on the way out of 7-11 when you go to pick up your hotdogs and beer for the big bash tomorrow. And DO enjoy the fireworks! They are such lovely reminders of who we are.

That was really funny. I bet other "tough-talking" political commentators would have been just as sissy as Hitchens was. Bill Kristol, Bush, Cheney, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, etc... They are pretty much all privleged frat boys

fuckface actually did something useful. good for him. that was water they were using, right? i retract my statement if it turns out that was vodka.

Oh, Canada really is no better. They participated in the TORTURE, too.

I find it interesting that liberals always talk about TORTURE, but never discuss depleted uranium ..

And Joanne, thinking of coming to Canada? Call ME. ladybroadoak@gmail.com. We can work on the war crimes tribunal together up HERE - or we can coordinate by email and phone.

lowlevelradiation.blogspot.com

And yes, the must be an international WAR CRIMES tribunal. No doubt. Since it was all done internationally, the jurisdiction is broad. (At this date, only the US does not subscribe to the ICC)

freedetainees.org

“If waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture.”

Clearly, this guy did not watch the presidential primaries.

notorture @ 40:

Yoo and Addington testify, Hitchins demonstrates (as has been done before) that waterboarding is torture yet ... where is no support for impeachment? ... Here is some Bush admin comentary on torture mashed up in a video with a protest song - what an Extraordinary Rendition of America the Bushies represent.

Actually there's lots of support for impeachment. It's just all being ignored.

JC in Kentucky @ 5:

I can't think of any one better to waterboard, except maybe for some terrorists.

What a surprise, a mindless rednecked fuckwit from Kentucky. I had the grave misfortune of having to go to that god forsaken shithole of a medieval state for 2 days. Those were the worst two days of my life. Just make sure you toothless inbreads stay in KY. The rest of us will start building the fence around you very soon.

As for the rest of you repig chickenshithawks, make a video of yourselves being water boarded, then you can poke fun at one of the people who had the balls to actually do it.

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