AC360: Ed Schultz Calls Out Cliff May
Download | play 
Download | play (h/t Heather)
Radio talk show host Ed Schultz has taken all he can take and he can't takes no more. On Anderson Cooper 360 yesterday, he blew up when PNACer Cliff May, Director of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, suggested that the left wants us to lose in Iraq as a way to teach the US a lesson on the evils of imperialism.
MAY: Yeah, I think also on some of the left wing blogs, Obama is taking some hits. But this does move him to the center and look, I want to put the...I'm not a big fan of his, but I'm going to put the best spin on it, which is that he understands the situation...fairly...well. Certainly better than the Daily Kos does and some of those on the left who would like to see America defeated in Iraq as a demonstration exercise that US power can never, never be used for good.
SCHULTZ: That I am...whoa, whoa! That is absolutely outrageous! That is outrageous for you to say people on the left want to lose in Iraq. I'm not going to sit here and listen to that. This is the Fourth of July, we are Americans, we don't believe in fighting in Iraq the way we are doing. We are depleting our resources. That's ridiculous. That's absolutely ridiculous.
Now this kind of cheap shot with no foundation infuriates me as much as it does Schultz, and his anger is certainly understandable and justified. But this is where I have to split from Big Ed and suggest that we on the left have to get a whole lot smarter about these kind of appearances. The key to these kind of exchanges is not to get angry, but to rob them of their framing and put them on the defensive. May's assertion is absurd on its face, so put that back in his lap and ask him to prove it--name these mythical leftists. And then ask him how he defines "winning" in Iraq. I mean, you have a signatory to the infamous PNAC letter to Clinton recommending that he take out Saddam, how well have any of their premises turned out in reality? Don't dignify this guy who has been on the wrong side of every argument by accepting his frame, Ed. Show him for the chump he is.
Full transcripts below the fold:
MAY: Yeah, I think also on some of the left wing blogs, Obama is taking some hits. But this does move him to the center and look, I want to put the…I’m not a big fan of his, but I’m going to put the best spin on it, which is that he understands the situation…fairly…well. Certainly better than the Daily Kos does and some of those on the left who would like to see America defeated in Iraq as a demonstration exercise that US power can never, never be used for good.
SCHULTZ: That I am…whoa, whoa! That is absolutely outrageous! That is outrageous for you to say people on the left want to lose in Iraq. I’m not going to sit here and listen to that. This is the Fourth of July, we are Americans, we don’t believe in fighting in Iraq the way we are doing. We are depleting our resources. That’s ridiculous. That’s absolutely ridiculous.
MAY: Well, Ed, tell me how you’re going to win in Iraq. Just tell me how you’re going to win in Iraq if you have no troops there.
SCHULTZ: You don’t even know the definition of “win” is.
MAY: Tell me the definition of win. If I don’t know, you tell me. Tell me.
SCHULTZ: The fact is we’re depleting our resources. We don’t have enough money to do this. We are absolutely hurting ourselves staying in Iraq. The Iraqi people need to step up.
MAY: They do. They do, and they are.
SCHULTZ: The real enemy here is in Afghanistan. For you t sit here and say that liberals don’t want to defend this country is unconscionable. That is absolutely outrageous.
MAY: I didn’t say it of you, I didn’t ….there are those on the left who would think that a US defeat in Iraq would be like the US defeat in Vietnam: an object lesson on the use of force.
SCHULTZ: Listen, Mr. May, I don’t know where you get your information but I spoke to Barack Obama face to face today.
MAY: Oh, congratulations to you.. I’m very….
SCHULTZ: And I asked him if he wanted to get out of Iraq. He said he was going to get us out of Iraq. I asked him if we were going to into Afghanistan with more troops, because that’s what President Bush wants to do now. He said he would support sending more troops into Afghanistan.
MAY: I’m glad they agree.
SCHULTZ: Now that is fighting the War on Terror.
MAY: I’m glad that Obama and Bush agree on the need to also fight the battle in Afghanistan. These are both very important battles in one global conflict. We don’t want to lose either one.
SCHULTZ: It’s something Bush hasn’t done well, I might add. It’s something Bush hasn’t done well at all.
First!!!
I saw this the other day and I was so glad that there was finally a real Democrat on television that cleaned that right wing hacks clock!!!
Thanks Ed Schultz, we need more like ya!!
Just look at this list of losers. They are always wrong.
Elliott Abrams Richard L. Armitage William J. Bennett
Jeffrey Bergner, John Bolton, Paula Dobriansky
Francis Fukuyama, Robert Kagan ,Zalmay Khalilzad,
William Kristol ,Richard Perle, Peter W. Rodman,
Donald Rumsfeld, William Schneider, Jr. Vin Weber,
Paul Wolfowitz, R. James Woolsey, Robert B. Zoellick and Cliff May.
May they all end up in the Hague!
It is precisely because of sh*t-for-brains like May why we are in this most unfortunate predicament in the history of our country. Check out this link of the true reason why we are mired in such a disaster: http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/entries/20...
Cliff May should be particularly ashamed of himself. He's obviously an articulate person and knows better. He's completely sold himself out to the corporate/industrial complex. I hope he is one day held accountable for his sick salesmanship of something he knows, deep down, is immoral and unconscionable.
Weak minds need to use childish rhetoric in order to feel more confident about their own position, and that's all there is to it.
Another way of putting it back in their laps is to say that people like May put their bank accounts, and their pet political projects, ahead of the well being of the country. In other words, they are traitors.
Bahahahaha... Cliff May just got his arse kicked, polished, and handed back to him on a platter, delivered personally by Jeff Gannon dressed only in a ribbon. I love it.
Every time I see this clown May on tv he is lying to the American public big time. Every time, the guy has no shame.
Say what?!
Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, what the hell is that?!
It's really amazing how these guys can come up with all these preposterous names for their organizations.
I live in an democracy other than America, so I know what real democracy is.
Don't need mr. may's fake fascist crap, thanks...
I always thought that it was a mistake for Air America to fire Schultz. Now they have crap on their station, and Rhodes could only rant aimlessly for so long before opening her big mouth and making a big blunder. Schultz was the midwestern voice of moderation. Look, I am an vegetarian and animal rights activist, but if he wants to hunt and fish, that is his choice. He may have a different perspective on hunting and still be a Democrat. I feel that he was kicked off because he talked about fishing and hunting, and even though he dealt with real issues, especially after Hurricane Katrina hit (I remember his news coverage was superb that day), he did not appeal with the far left of the party. How is this a 50 state strategy? I am glad that they still let him talk on TV because he is way better than Rush Limbaugh, who is not making 408 million dollars a year for blowing hot air. Keep on fighting, Ed, this country needs you now more than ever.
What disturbs me about Cliff May's comments is that he's succeeded in making it about "Winning in Iraq" -- and at least Ed turned that around a little and said Cliff May was accusing the left of "not wanting to defend the US"
But in actual fact, what the hell are we doing trying to "Win" where we have no place BEING in the first place?
Cliff May's position is like the position of a drunken compulsive gambler, gambling away the life savings and (all future earnings, on credit!) of a family.
When his wife comes and tries to drag his sorry ass away from the slot machines, yells back at her "You just don't want me to WIN!"
THAT'S what's wrong with Cliff May's argument, and THAT'S what Ed Schultz should have called him on.
Cliff May should be particularly ashamed of himself.
People like Cliff May HAVE no shame.
The trick to debating these assholes is to not get pulled into "winning" or "not winning" in Iraq. We can't win that semantic nonsense. Stick to the facts: The "war" in Iraq was a mistake, lives have been wasted in vain, we are mistrusted all over the planet because of it, it should have never happened and we must get out as soon as possible, formally apologize to the Iraqi people, offer reparations and proceed with war crimes trials.
May and his co-horts have no right to make statements like that. The audacity of smearing people who want the war to end! Does he have loved ones serving in the militery? Has he joined? Christ! These warmongers are traitors who are destroying our country!
cf - Great minds think alike.
This clif may is why the republicans are disliked soo much. Yeah the gift that keeps on giving.
The other headline here could have easily been:
"Cliff May Praises Obama's Iraq Policy"
Ugh.
I'm gonna watch that clip again ... that was so very satisfying. Ed Schultz, I applaud you !
Ed could also have replied that it's up to the Iraqis to "win," not us because it's their country.
There are many on the right who are betraying our country and the American public by seeking to squander our wealth and influence on foreign adventurism and transferring the public till away from infrastructure to the Military Industrial Complex. It is, as we are seeing now, unsustainable and will lead to social decay at home while placing the US at greater risk internationally as it sows resentment, diminishing our ability to lead by example and diplomacy.
It is the right wingers, like Clifford May, who are leading the United States perilously close to economic collapse at home, throwing our military into disarray and diminishing our influence and credibility abroad.
good schultz gave him some of their own medicine
that less than patriotic bull shxt....is old propaganda
one other thing i'm easily confused...when rove had his discussion with alan colmes he wouldn't call the iraqi conflict... war......is it a war or is it going after criminals/terrorists who don't represent a country....so what is winning anyways??
Hum, now that Cliff May certainly doesn't look like a guy that we would meet at an Applebee's salad bar. He must be elitist democrat...
SCHULTZ: And I asked him if he wanted to get out of Iraq. He said he was going to get us out of Iraq. I asked him if we were going to into Afghanistan with more troops, because that’s what President Bush wants to do now. He said he would support sending more troops into Afghanistan.
MAY: I’m glad they agree.
SCHULTZ: Now that is fighting the War on Terror.
Hate to tell you this, Ed and Cliff (and Barrack) but the so-called "War on Terror" is pure bamboozle.
Remember this one from the guy who should be our nominee?
Democrat John Edwards Wednesday repudiated the notion that there is a “global war on terror,” calling it an ideological doctrine advanced by the Bush administration that has strained American military resources and emboldened terrorists.
"We need a post-Bush, post-9/11, post-Iraq military that is mission focused on protecting Americans from 21st-century threats, not misused for discredited ideological purposes. By framing this as a war, we have walked right into the trap the terrorists have set that we are engaged in some kind of clash of civilizations and a war on Islam.”
Duh.
They're still pulling this "win in Iraq" bullshit because they study polls that show how ignorant Americans still are. These polls give neocons like this guy the confidence to make bold faced lies and deceptions fucking 5 years after the unjust attack on Iraq. Luckily most people now oppose this war and have figured out the truth so neocon snake oil salesmen like Cliff May are increasingly becoming laughing stocks.
He's right in my case, but I don't know if opposition to US goals in Iraq is the position of a leftist so much as just a decent human being. The US invaded Iraq so it could commandeer Iraq's resources and real estate; I would have them fail in this. The problem isn't Bush's failure to invade Iraq properly, it's that he invaded it at all.
TheNextDylan (you should be banned for that nick alone),
Ed Schultz never worked for and could never have been fired from AAR as best I can tell.
Project for a New American Century.
I find it so telling that the "new American century" they seek is a continuation of the worst parts the last century.
The 20th Century was bloody, and there is money in blood. And the PNAC is really just a group of sales reps.
These guys rep the Carlyle Group and Halliburton.
Does Coca-Cola's national sales manager get to go on Andrea Cooper's(sexist remark sorry, he is such a ho) show and talk about
nutrition?
These guys are upper management in MIC.
String'em up with the rest of the traitors.
There I said it. I have been holding off with the term "string'em up" for a few weeks. Thinking it's violent and might cause
trouble for C&L.
Fuck it.
We all need to go to Washington with some rope.
Lot's of it.
TheNextDylan @ 11:
Um Randi Rhodes is back on the air and it aint Air America!!
http://www.novamradio.com/live/
Pssst... Cliff May hates America.
And freedom.
According to a 1996 paper drafted by prominent hard-line neo-conservatives -- including some, like Douglas Feith and David Wurmser, who would later serve in senior posts in Cheney's office and the Pentagon in the run-up to the invasion -- ousting Hussein and installing a pro-Western leader was the key to destabilising Israel's Arab enemies and/or bending them to its will. This would permit the Jewish state not only to escape the Oslo peace process, but also to secure as much of the occupied Palestinian (and Syrian) territories as it wished.
Indeed, getting rid of Hussein and occupying Iraq would not only tighten Israel's hold on Arab territories, in this view; it could also threaten the survival of the Arab and Islamic worlds' most formidable weapon against Israel -- OPEC -- by flooding the world market with Iraqi oil and forcing the commodity's price down to historic lows.
That's how it looked five years ago anyway.
.
Cliff May seeks a victory from our occupation of a sovereign nation that never attacked us...
Who wins from an occupation like that?
Who looses in an occupation like that?
What is won and what is lost... exactly?
Does Cliff May think staying in Iraq another 100 years is a 100 year victory?
Does Cliff May think leaving Iraq is a defeat... ever?
.
theWalrus @ 13:
I agree that they basically have no shame but I know the man, before he goes to sleep, occasionally realizes what a complete douche he is. I strongly agree with your argument about the need to frame the argument in such a way that winning or not winning is not the issue, but in which it is posited that the war was fought on false pretenses, that our presence there is not desired, that the American people do not favor our presence there, and certainly the Iraqi people do not. Anyway.
"Don’t dignify this guy who has been on the wrong side of every argument by accepting his frame, Ed. Show him for the chump he is."
clapclapclapclapclap...
bingo.
Athough his voice sound like him, Ed is no Rush Limbaugh.
Embittered & Anti-Republicrat - Max-Hussein-1 @ 31:
who wins hunt oil,chevron,BP, shell....halliburton,KBR and blackwater......that's all that matters and what will they say to the little people is that we don't undertstand the quest for resources is for national security...saddam moved away from the pegged u.s. dollar to crude the federal reserve didn't like it. he also kicked out oil companies to nationalize the oil for iraq
he had too much potential control of the global economy/also becoming wealthier israel doesn't like that...iran is now doing the same thing using a basket of currencies for crude....russia may follow
kerplunk @ 34:
GOOD one is too many
George Carlin said it best about these self-proclaimed patriots of being proud to be an American. Pride involves having some role in the outcome you are so proud of. What did these new era America First jingoists ever contribute to any of the causes that America stands for? All they know how to do is urge public policy and foreign adventures that fly in the face of everything just, democratic, and constitutional, then defend these policies by labeling as traitors, appeasers, or dupes all real defenders of America and humanity. When the war crimes tribunals are finally convened, those who took no risks, paid no price, and gave no treasure should be the first ones tried and convicted. Jesse Helms died of natural causes, but there is yet time to imprison the neocons and warmongers.
So now it's up to the people who think this war is a sham to define what winning is, and not the people who shilled for it.
I'd say that it is the job of the "moderator" to call their guests on such outlandish B.S.
They never do however (since Donohue was canned), and are oft time the purvayer of the BS.
Thanks Big Ed! These wingnut talking points are sooo bad it's sickening. (it's because the wingnuts 'frame' the debate to make Liberals look bad instead of offering any kind of worthwhile discussion or solution. They're too busy blaming instead of helping) They truly deserve the 'Lunitic Fringe' label.
and tell me, how many Republicans are praying for a bloody Terrorist attack on American soil so they might win the 2008 Presidential election??? sick bastards, all of them...
cf @ 12:
Excellent analogy!
You can NEVER get a good clean answer when you press Republicans for a description of "winning" in Iraq. You get circular logic, mis-representations, incorrect assumptions, lies, accusations, and finally claims of "I'm a better patriot than you."
Best answer: "You, sir, are an idiot."
lex @ 40:
what did scott mcClellen tell us ongoing politicization(sp)......ongoing linguistic framing/blaming
karl @ 42:
That's because Republican'ts don't have anything else.
What a weak response...
When are the people on the left on TV going to get a back bone and tell people like Cliff May that they should be in prison for deceiving Americans into supporting an evil act of war on Iraq and at the same time protecting the very people who attacked us on 911 ...the Saudis!
So what... Ed Shultz gets defensive and a little testy while that bastard sits there and grins... how weak.
How about explaining that while the Saudi royals smile and shake our hands and take our money their people support Al Qeada?
How about pointing out that the vast majority of foreigners that go into Iraq to kill Americans are Saudis?
Getting all testy doesnt make the point at all.
Cliff May -- What an arrogant, lying a*****e.
My hat's off to Schultz.
We cannot let these pseudo-patriots like May get away with that c**p anymore. They've had a free joyride with this for far too long. It is NOT patriotic to treat your fellow American citizens who have the intelligence and the courage to question the idiotic, self-defeating, un-American policies of the B/C administration as if they were your enemy.
Cliff May, redirect your efforts toward something more your speed, like changing lightbulbs, or licking stamps and putting them on envelopes.
A little background on Cliff May and The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies
http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1475.html
Snowball @ 47:
Uh, no, I don't have any need to view gay porn, thanks.
Gerald Gibson @ 45:
Has the irony hit you yet?
Good post, Nicolle. I agree that framing and reframing the issue like Rachel Maddow does so well is the best way to take on these buffoons. But to some degree, I'm glad that there are people out there that will get mad and show some passion when the PNACers start to spew their stuff.
And Schultz is right, we are all Americans, but the people on the left want what is best for America, we just don't see that endless war in the Middle East is in the best interests of America... the oil companies, maybe, but not all Americans.
That's the way to talk to these people, Ed was furious and he was right.
I saw it on television that night.
This weasel May had to be stopped...
Ed pushed him of the Cliff.
We shun them. Not to put too fine a point on it, but why are they even invited to discuss their long ago discredited views? The world weeps.
Gerald Gibson @ 45:
we tried that when we told them the (9-11) planes that destroyed the WT towers were taken over/flown by saudis....didn't seem to work...the already know and they don't care....many of us here know it's a bumper sticker....schultz can't/wouldn't be able to get into that
people don't want to hear the truth..saddam wasn't going play their game anymore
Go Big Eddie! You are 100% spot on. Get angry!
I for one am tired of the right wingers who have nothing but advice for the left. The dems are angry, watch out they is get'n riled up. Well you know what, I am friggin' angry.
Sorry, Nicole, but when someone says crap like this it calls for an angry response. If this doesn't, what does? We need to get angry when it is appropriate. Answering them back in the fashion you suggest is fine for standard issue stuff. However, calling people like May out does nothing except give them the chance to repeat or add on. They never explain because they don't feel like they need to. Demonstrating anger at some ludicrous remark gets their attention, throws them off. Sometimes it pays to get in the bully's face.
Besides we have every right to be angry and it is high time we stood up. Then maybe our lack lustre representatives will too!
Viva la Revolution!
Che Schultz!
I have been watching all this closely and posting on these blogs for the past 7 years and I hardly EVER see the truth said on TV... on these blogs I see it all the time... but on TV.. almost never... so what if the people dont want to hear the truth... the democrats pussying out is exactly why I helped the Ron Paul people try to take over the Republican party... if people just give up and dont keep pounding away at the truth and try to take action then these asswipes just get away with it... and that includes Obama letting them get away with it even if he does "win" ...
Gerald Gibson @ 55:
Oh. Ron Paul supporter. That explains the bitterness.
You're absolutely right. For far too long, ridiculous Republican "arguments" have been met with shrill emotion. A far better approach would be to meet their specious arguments with measured reason. I sit and watch my parents lap up everything Bill Kristol says, because he "sounds" reasonable - i.e. he doesn't get excited. Republican policy rarely is based in reality. It would be exceedingly easy to poke holes in just about any of it.
Pedro @ 57:
Are you kidding? He sure gets excited when Republican'ts talk about killing more poor brown 3rd world people.
All Neocons/PNAC talking heads have one thing in common ,they push for wars that they want others to fight in.
They all use the same language challenging others patriotism when their own ideas of wars put to question...
Neglect democracy at home,while trying to make it the cause of wars abroad.
Randy @ 59:
Yep. Democracy at gunpoint.
my favorite Right wing questions:
a) why do liberals want to lose in iraq?
b) why don't liberals recognize the islamist dangers we face?
If May wants us to win so fucking bad why the hell isn't he over there helping out ? Oh yea he is just another chicken shit chicken hawk. Every time I see this little creep I wish I was on the set with him so I could go up afterwards and set that worthless fuck straight . Not a one of these right wing assholes can tell any of us what actually be considered a win in that theater of war.
Bush Is A Yankee @ 44:
Bush Is A Yankee @ 44:
Bush Is A Yankee @ 44:
BIGBONEDED @ 61:
It looks like they have already won the war. They invaded, set up a puppet government and now are getting the no bid contracts on the oil, which is why they invaded in the first place.
BIGBONEDED @ 61:
Nah. They'd all just have a doctor diagnose them with "pilonidal cysts" (lumps in the arse) like Tubby Limbaugh to avoid the fighting.
Cheney, Bush, Rove, Addington, May, Gonzales, Yoo, the list goes on. If hubris and incompetence were virtues, these clowns would have succeeded with their scheme of "full spectrum global hegemony" long ago, but they haven't and they won't. No one ever does. Too bad so many suffer and die whenever this particular variety of scum rises to the surface of the pond. They always do. Until we understand why and how that happens, history will require that we continue to retake the course.
sulphurdunn @ 65:
And Junior's Yale degree was in history. Ironic?
What a bunch of brainwashed neocon turds. "War on Terror", Win In Iraq, Support the Troops, blah, blah, blah. Their brains can only hold about 6-7 half baked ideas at once. I say we put them on the front lines in Iraq and let them "win" the war.
Comrade Rou @ 67:
Please. The proper phrase is "The War Against Terror." So we must support Bush's T.W.A.T.
I love the fact that he brought up Vietnam. Anyone think he actually served in Vietnam? Didn't think so.
The whole problem stems from the Rove/Cheney/Bush/PNAC sales job that we were in a war.There was no war till Bush gang sold it to us as a war and then made it
a war by attacking Iraq.We all know this,but we allow the loud-mouthed assholes to continue to reinforce their rhetorical bull shit while we sit there with our finger in our nose while we ask each other "how can these guys get away with this shit?"
Well, it`s because they`re criminals who sold us the snake oil with the threat of anthrax and mushroom clouds if we didn`t buy it.Not us,but the rest of the American People who watch FOX,CNN,CBS,NBC,ABC,et., al..I don`t buy any of it and didn`t ,but fighting the bastards that make up the rules as they go along is like trying to get heard in my family growing up--it just ain`t going to happen.So I grieve the loss of America.
And if you think Obama is the answer,well his white guy sold his black guy down the river on FISA.I can pray,and that`s what I`ll do..
joeedugan @ 69:
Eh, he probably served his country by ensuring that the Vietnamese didn't invade Texas, just like Junior.
Bush Is A Yankee @ 58:
So because the poster uses "Pedro" as a handle you mention the word "brown" in a hateful and patronizing tone even while sounding like a sympathetic liberal phony. You belong at redstate or stormfront.
The one thing I wish Ed had said was, "This is not a war, it's an occupation. There is no way to win an occupation. There's only occupy, then leave."
Gerald Gibson @ 55:
i don't hear the complete truth at least what i perceived to be the truth either.....you may know more than me. i personally liked some of paul's ideas/philosophy i don't want to get into that....i do respect him but his message was idealistic. you can't just turn the titantic around that easy.....but changes do need to be made.
it's a process and ron paul was part of that process it's going to take maybe twenty yrs. but i don't appreciate the pxssy comment it's complicated with many variables nobody has all the answers...but getting out of iraq is a start for me.
Dale H @ 72:
And if your opinion ever means anything to me, I'll keep that in mind, thanks.
Has the Rightwing "patriots" ever offered any evidence that any major or notable liberal or Democrat has ever said he or she wants the USA to lose in Iraq? I can't recall, but apart from Cliff May there are a bunch of Republicans and conservatives who made that claim. I think they're just trying to project their own despicable views onto liberals and Dems.
Someone should keep a running tab of folks like Cliff "Claven" May making such statements.
Vincennes @ 76:
They don't have to offer any evidence. People believe what is constantly thrown at them from the media. Goebbels' method.
Johnny2Bad @ 17:
why not when thoes oil companys take over in iraq we,ll still have our sand rollers pimping for the corporations , sixteen months my ass!
Well that sure is comforting to know that the Republicans say the "war on terra" is in Iraq AND Afghanistan, and the Dems think the US should focus solely on killing Afghans (oops I mean those evil Taliban that are everywhere). How reassuring that BOTH of these parties plays the "we know the real evil ones" shell game. So, after the election, if the Repubs win, it's continuous killing of Iraqis and Afghans and if the Dems win, it's just Afghans that "deserve" to be killed. Who says only Republicans have catch phrases and slogans? Seems to me the Dems have a few of their own as well.
ConcernedCanuck @ 79:
Uh, thanks. Feel free to comment about your own government, and we'll take care of ours.
swampfox @ 78:
pull the combat troops out and leave Blackwater in iraq if they want. they're a public company....bush has set up a catch-22 for obama he knows we all know it
Bush Is A Yankee @ 80:
Uh, thanks, but how is that working out for you? Oh ya, it isn't. Don't shoot the messenger just because you don't like the message.
karl @ 81:
pull the combat troops out and leave Blackwater in iraq if they want. they're a public company....bush has set up a catch-22 for obama he knows we all know it
Of course they would want to stay. They're making ungodly amounts of money in a country where they are absolutely immune from prosecution for any mistakes they make.
ConcernedCanuck @ 82:
That's nice. Again, when we want to emulate the Canadian government, we'll ask for your asinine opinion.
Cliff May - cheerleader for using US troops as mercenaries for the multi-national oil corps. Fuck him!
Bush Is A Yankee @ 83:
Of course they would want to stay. They're making ungodly amounts of money in a country where they are absolutely immune from prosecution for any mistakes they make.
let them stay and let the oil companies take on the cost
have a withdrawl that works but this staying for 100 yrs. as long as there is no casualities is bull shxt.
Terrible @ 85:
CORPORATE welfare......jesse helms knows about that
Logic and facts are a useless weapon in this century of truthiness. Today, tt's all about emotional gut feelings and ad hominem character issues. So the only way to disarm these neocons or wingnuts is to combine these two response tactics with, "What have you (or your organization) ever done for this country??? -- and don't say blaming people for our troubles and fearmongering. Those do not count as doing something for your country."
Say what you want about Ed, but Liberals need to hit a-holes in the jaw like that every day so that the people realize that those jerks are full of it and need to shut their mouths.
EconProf @ 88:
No, that's too open-ended of a question. They wouldn't be cornered with that. They'd just regurgitate something about "supporting the president and our troops," yadda yadda. The better question would be to ask them, directly and repeatedly, "why aren't YOU over there fighting in Iraq if you're so supportive of it?"
What Schultz could have jumped on and didn't is the assertion that American troops in Iraq are there to do "good".
He could have replied that we were there for oil and that the troops were being used for ends that are anything but good.
We want our troops out of there.
Isawthelight @ 91:
No... as much as the truth of it actually is that we're there for the oil, the Reich-wing has repeated the "anyone who thinks that is a tinfoil-hat-wearer" crap so often that it probably would've hurt Schultz more than May.
I disagree a little controlled anger is a good thing.
Being dispassionate is what helped kill the Dukakis campaign.
However, a definition for a win or a time-table should be insisted upon, because otherwise how do we know if we failed or succeeded
Besides parceling out oil drilling rights?
ysbaddaden @ 93:
Well, a timetable wouldn't help win the election. The Reich-wing has already beat that one to death with "letting our enemies know when we're leaving" crap. And they're masters at giving insanely general answers for what a "win" would look like... crap about "freedom flourishing, all Iraqis walking through fields of daisies and worshipping Jesus, etc." They OWN the mainstream media.
I wished Schultz had said, "Why don't you tell the viewers who you really are, Mr. May? Tell them you were on the sidelines of the Clinton Admin trying to get Clinton to go full-blown-war so you and your cronies could capture the oil in Iraq, which is exactly what you and your cohorts used 9/11 for!".
I wished he had said something along those lines.
Snowball @ 47:
From the link:
Like its neoconservative partners, FDD's agenda has included supporting a long-term military engagement in Iraq, advocating aggressive action in Iran and Syria, promoting the idea that the United States and the West are in an existential conflict with "Islamofascism," and pushing public opinion to support an Israel-centric U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East. The foundation has also pushed a number of domestic policies in the war on terror, including controversial eavesdropping legislation. And like many of its neoconservative brethren, FDD links cultural issues in the United States to the broader issue of confronting enemies overseas. The foundation has even lambasted comic books for their supposedly corrosive impact on American youth (Boston Globe, August 28, 2005).
FDD’s director is Clifford May, a former writer for the New York Times who in 1997-2001 served as director of communications for the Republican National Committee. May was also the editor of the party's official magazine, Rising Tide, is a former vice chair of the Republican Jewish Coalition, and is a CPD member.
Fascism, thy name is Zion.
Does anyone know what a win looks like in Iraq yet? This is something George Bush and his neocons have never been able to state for us or have been able to say it in a clear manner. Of course, we all know you can't win an illegal occupation! Spit.
KayInMaine @ 97:
And they don't have to. Especially right now. They're running out the clock so they can blame Junior's mistake on someone else.
Talking point I want to hear: You ask me do I want America to win the war in Iraq? What do you think this is, a football game? I'm interested in what's good for America, and for America to do good. Your talk of winning reveals you're thinking like a child! We won the war in the first few days, and we've been fumbling the occupation since. American values and American interests lose, lose, lose, as long as we continue to be bogged down in this colossal strategic blunder. The oil companies are the only ones winning this. What would be good for America, and what America could do that is good, is to get the hell out. That's what the Iraqis want, and you know what? It's their country, not yours!
swampfox @ 78:
No. You just get TF out. Unless Obama will be more worried about his reelection than doing the right thing.
Hmmm.
Vidal said it best.
Perpetual war for perpetual peace.
Che's Lounge @ 101:
That's creepy. Then again, I think it's creepy when I see stickers on trucks with big "Peace: The Old Fashioned Way" with the photo of a B-52 on it.
Bush Is A Yankee @ 84:
Perhaps you should emulate the Canadian government instead of displaying your arrogance on a blog. Like it or not, YOUR government affects the globe. This isn't some Hollywood movie where ya'all come off as the heros when ya gets the bad guy. You are bankrupting economies as we speak thanks to military interferences globally, and the best you can come up with is trying to slam a fellow poster cuz he actually says the truth. This isn't a competition to show us how big your pecker is. We already know that it's not the size when you obviously don't know how to use it, so to speak. The world already knows how the bully on the block can beat everyone up, but still can't count to ten without his fingers. Stop proving all those catchphrases about Americans are true. I for one don't buy it.
First drink, hero, from my horn:
I spiced the draught well for you
To waken your memory clearly
So that the past shall not slip your mind!
—Hagen to Siegfried
Die Götterdämmerung
Every state must have its enemies. Great powers must have especially monstrous foes. Above all, these foes must arise from within, for national pride does not admit that a great nation can be defeated by any outside force. That is why, though its origins are elsewhere, the stab in the back has become the sustaining myth of modern American nationalism. Since the end of World War II it has been the device by which the American right wing has both revitalized itself and repeatedly avoided responsibility for its own worst blunders. Indeed, the right has distilled its tale of betrayal into a formula: Advocate some momentarily popular but reckless policy. Deny culpability when that policy is exposed as disastrous. Blame the disaster on internal enemies who hate America. Repeat, always making sure to increase the number of internal enemies.
http://harpers.org/archive/2006/06/0081080
Bush Is A Yankee @ 102:
Deal with it. That's US foreign policy since the west was won in a nutshell.
It's interesting because Grandpa McSame is trying to placate the war-weary public by saying that he's "always spoken out against the mismanagement of the war." He'll never say that he was against the war itself; I guess he just believes that he could've done a better job running it.
ConcernedCanuck @ 103:
Seriously. I don't GAF what you think about the US or how you think it should be run, no matter how swell you think your country is. You think the Canadian government is great, whoop-de-f---ing-doo. I don't GAF about what you believe about Americans, but your superiority complex is compelling.
Che's Lounge @ 105:
No argument here.
I'm glad that Ed called May out on painting liberals as unpatriotic, but the rest of it is useless. You will never get the Republicans to admit it was wrong to invade and to admit we can't win. They simply are not able to see that.
The way to counter their BS is to use logical jiu jitzu; use the opponents momentum against him. Yes, we need to "win" in Iraq. Start up the draft, build up a military of about 20 million, an Imperial Army. Raise taxes to pay for it, and start whuppin' butt. If the "War on Terror" is worth fighting, it's certainly worth paying for.
No more funding it off budget. No more "emergency appropriations" or "supplemental appropriations." No more borrowing to pay for it. No cutting other programs to pay for it. This is WAR for the future of democracy, Jesus and apple pie, for God's sake. It's worth every penny, every sacrifice, to save America from the Muslim hordes.
Raise taxes on corporations and the wealthy. they're the ones who wanted the war in the first place.
Stay in Iraq for a hundred years, John? How're ya' gonna' pay for that?
Richard Peterson @ 109:
LOL I like it. But until you make every Joe Q. Citizen feel the effects of us being in war, things will continue as normal. Cheney was arrogant enough to say that "Reagan proved deficits [spending] don't matter," and that's how they're running it and will continue to run it. There is no rationing of materials like there was in WWII, and no draft. Regarding a draft, that's so politically thorny right now that it'll never be raised as an issue... even if the draft were reinstated, there's no way in hell that politicians would institute a draft effecting people of all economic stripes.
cliff may is a fucking bully.
if he did not have the public audience,
he woudl not be such an ass. karma
has a way of catching up with a jackass
and it's certainly due for may.
he's another gop duty dogger with
his balls hung around his neck.
Hey Cliff
Soooo just how do you win a war crime.....tell us I kind of want to know???
*affecting people of all economic stripes.
Scooter @ 112:
Good one.
Ed Shultz aspires to be the Rush Limbaugh of lefty radio. Yesterday he interviewed Obama and was just as fawning and weasilly as limpballs is with chainy. What a putz!
karl @ 86:
let them stay and let the oil companies take on the cost
have a withdrawl that works but this staying for 100 yrs. as long as there is no casualities is bull shxt.
Karl
People or nations fight over resources.
Warfare has nothing to do with spreading
democracy, or American Values ( ie. like fast food outlets and Hummers)
This has been happening since the beginning of time.
( ie before 4000 BC).
OK. Religious minded people follow a different trejectory
but,,, ?
In the end Americans, including you , will foot the bill
for this Crusade into the Middle East, unless you have
investments in companies making money on the same
Crusade. If you have invested rightly you may come
out ahead .
I missed this one and a lot of others.
This Crusade will drain America, and the Bush family will Walk.
With the Sub-Prime Meltdown , it will be a tough
for many Americans for 4 to 5 years ,
which is very unfortunate.
" Bush Is a Yankee @ 80, ' Please note.'
It's all about money .
Washington Politics is all about money.
The Problem is In Washington . D.C.
It's up to you, because you pay for it.
Eventually the Amerians in the RED States
will wake up.
Be Patient.
Johnny2Bad @ 23:
I think that Johnny has it almost completely right. I would add the idea that the war in Afghanistan is as ludicrous as the war in Iraq, and that the WOT is a hoax. I don't believe the mainstream media narrative about America being attacked by Al Qaida on 9/11. The story doesn't hold together. To begin with, what caused those 3 buildings to collapse in the way they did. It had to be more than the effects of the two airliners that crashed into the twin towers. Those buildings were demolished by bombs that had been planted in advance, awaiting the attack. The question is, who was behind the demolition? It certainly couldn't have been Osama bin Laden from his cave in Afghanistan.
Glad to hear Ed Schultz stand up for the left. Who knew. But after watching even one minute of CNN I feel dirty - especially when Mr. Dreamboat restated his little 360 narrative that something Obama said moves him to the center.
Banish cable news. It's degrading.
I agree with you on every point except your very last one. Do you really think Americans in the reddest of the red states will wake up regarding Iraq? I have a hard time ever imagining they will. I can't even fathom what it would take.
Jack Canuck @ 117:
WTC owner Larry Silverstein: "I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it. And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."
i understand schultz getting angry, but he missed oppportunity after opportunity to turn the entire dsicussion around on asshat may
when one goes to these programs, one must have on hand the mutltitude of quotes by the bushies as to what "winning" means
you then list them, and note how they have changed month to month
then, instead of just saying "bush hasnt been very successful in afghanistan" you note that the reason the taliban have regained a stronghold is because this country is now incapable of fighting a war on two fronts....which has made us weaker than any time in our history
you go on to point out that were this the case in a time like ww2, we might well be speaking japanese or german
Uncle Joe Mccarthy @ 121:
Well, the problem is the venue itself. Television is largely confined to seconds-long soundbites, and it's doubtful that Schultz would get very far, were he to try listing all of those very valid points.
Jack Canuck @ 117:
I was with you till the 911 conspiracy stuff. That usually gets deleted for good reason.
theWalrus @ 13:
ESPECIALLY proceed with war crime trials.
(I wish someone would slap that sh*t-eating smirk off may's face.)
Check out Ed Schultz here.........
http://www.bigeddieradio.com/
What would happen if the supposedly 70 odd percent of Americans who want change, first of all control the language of the debate?
Taking control of the framing is done initially by controlling the words.
There is no war in Iraq.
Do not refer to the occupation as anything but what it is.
The 'Mission Accomplished' moment was on May 1, 2003,
that was when the invasion was declared a success.
Schultz should have told May, 'Winning? Get your head on straight, Jasper. We won that five years ago, now's the time to end the occupation.'
You will continue fighting an uphill battle, constantly falling into the verbal pitfalls until such time that you take control of the narrative and that starts with the spoken word.
Their reality can only exist as long as they control the parlance.
Their reality is spawned from a labyrinth of repeated lies, deceits and misdirections.
Time to define a new reality, you know, one that starts with facts and the truth.
this all means that the right still controls the dialog and the associated politics. the whole mmeme about al ciaDA and Afghanistan is false, certainly not provably true. 15/19 known participants of 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia.
Beaverboy @ 126:
I agree, but it's the truth against a huge, corporate-owned MSM with a virtually endless money supply. I wish I could believe that it had any chance for changing, but with the nature of the beast and the apathy of most Americans, it doesn't hold much hope. The internet as a medium itself is helping, but way too slowly.
ConcernedCanuck @ 103, Well said my Northern neighbor!
Richard Peterson @ 109, sounds like a good plan to me!
Richard Peterson @ 109, using it as a counter to the BS sounds good to me that is!
SCHRODINGER’S CAT @ 116 says "and the Bush family will Walk"
Don't stake too much on that or you may miss out like on the war crimes investments. History has lots of examples of their kind not coming out on top. Remember they are pawns too of the real power brokers. And when push come to shove don't think for a second that the real big players won't throw the bush family under the bus.
Just once I'd like to see someone force, actually force a Neo-nut to answer 1 stinking question. How are we paying for the war? A lot of people bring it up but no one ever forces a "send more troops" Neanderthal to answer that 1 fundamental question.
Despite Ed calling him out on his divisive patriotism he still let bastard slide on answering that.
Always with Neo-nuts!
We will pay the price but we won't count the cost!
We will pay the price but we won't count the cost!
We will pay the price but we won't count the cost!
It stupidity like that that has caused this world economy to the edge of collapse, and maybe the Reagan worshipers who think this war is such a boon outh to take note. Iran is doing to us what we did to the USSR. Hey were building a nuke, so the feaqr mongers will spend more on war and ultimately break the bank. You are all f******g retards, we'll be lucky to have enough money left over to throw rocks at Iran.
so pissed I was I couldn't even type LOL!
Why does everything in American news talk show just end up as shouting?
This is why I hate watching this crap.
I just cant stand it.
WHY DID I PRESS THAT BUTTON????!!!!
In any sane discussion, the guy on the left would have defined his argument thusly:
The right's definition of 'winning' in Iraq is BEING IN IRAQ!
It's always been that.
We're there and we're winnin'!
But...
IT'S BEEN FIVE FREEKIN' YEARS...!!
We're still there (and still winnin')!
Violence has calmed down a bit because most neighborhoods have been ethnically cleansed - there's simply less people around to kill.
The PRICE OF OIL is almost $150 a barrel.
I guess you could say "we're winning".
Somebody is winning... it all depends on what your definition of "WE" is...
I say again... the Right's definition of "WINNING in IRAQ" IS BEING IN IRAQ.
Because as long as "WE'RE there" then "WE'RE" winning.
SO...
If by "WE" you mean oil companies, Haliburton, Blackwater, and the countless other contractors and no-bidders who are making BIG BUCKS off of the biggest government giveaway program in the history of mankind.
Yeah, then I guess "WE'RE WINNING"...
And you want "US" to keep on "WINNING" forever...
I think the Republicans want us to lose. Why else would they not do more planning? Why else would they not pay more attention to the war and learn from their mistakes? Why can't they finish Afghanistan? Why can't they finish Iraq? Why can't they find bin Laden? Why can't they do ANYTHING right? I think Republicans hate America and that is why they are ruining our country and trashing the constitution. And the Dems are so worthless they never go on attack...constant defense, total wimps...you can have the worst administration EVER and the Dems will still lose the next election...
It's sickening how far to the right US discourse has moved when you can't even think of not supporting the military. That was certainly not rare to hear, even from troops, during the Vietnam War. I personally would love for the US to lose in Iraq and Afghanistan and everywhere else at this point, quite honestly. But despite common belief, the US is not losing in Iraq. The US has succeeded in destroying the country; slaughtering, injuring, and displacing over half the population (according to Dahr Jamail and Nir Rosen); poisoning it for the foreseeable future; and insuring US military bases stay there for decades to come. Meanwhile, the US population has been convinced that whatever "chaos" or "conflict" there is is the fault of those "backward Arabs" with their inscrutable "tribalism." And if Greg Palast's research is correct, the rising oil prices are also part of Team Bush's plans, so that oil profits remain high even as supplies decrease.
These little effeminate pukes like Cliff May really step beyond their turf into realms they can't defend, don't they? I dare him to come up to me and a) tell me I don't care about my country and b) that I want terrorists to prevail in the world. I double dare his little whining nether-region to do so. If not for bravado-full wimps like him and his cowboy centerfolds, we would have far fewer American-hating terrorists in the world. For that matter, far fewer America haters, period.
Seems to me that the objective in Iraq was to eliminate the threat of nuclear weapons, since we couldn't wait for the final proof "which could come in the form of a mushroom cloud".
Since that's done, it's time for us to ask the Iraqi people how best to withdraw. (Since about 1,000,000 have been killed since hostilities started.)
Because the US Congress seems to not have pulled their heads out of their arsses, solving the withdrawal question seems to be a question that the Congress is incapable of handling. (Along with any issue that doesn't involve corporate welfare or other corporate treatment, like immunity.)
Bush Is A Yankee @ 110:
Joe Citizen is feeling it at the gas pump, the grocery store, and everywhere else. Part of the rise in gas prices is increased demand from China and India. Part of it is speculation, due to the deregulation of commodities trading engineered by McCain's economic advisor, Phil Gramms. But the biggest part is the weak dollar, which is partly due to funding the War on Everyon But the Terrorists with borrowed money.
John in New Mexico @ 3:
I didn't read the comments so I don't know if anyone else caught the few obvious ommisions:
Douglas Feith (sp?), and of course the four asshats behind it all--Chenney, Rove, Rice, and Bush.
john in california @ 115:
Ed is a local boy. He became a liberal talker after he married a gal who is a liberal activist. Supposedly she educated him and he switched sides.
Other folks think he just realized that there already was a Rush Limbaugh and more than enough other conservative talkers, so he decided to go to the pasture that wasn't being overgrazed.
I'm glad he did, because he was able to get the air time and sponsors that any liberal starting out wouldn't have seen. but he may be just an opportunist.
Terrible @ 130:
Thank you. I hope someone suggests it to Obama.
NoName @ 136:
Yes, YES now that is the point Ed should have thrown right back at Over the Cliff May
Ed Schultz rocks. I listen to Ed's show every day and he's right on the money and what I like best about him is that he doesn't take any shit from those damn republican propagandists and he never, ever backs down. Way to go Ed!
Winning and losing? This is not a game. There's no winning involved. Iraq already lost hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians because of the war, and we lost more than 4000 young Americans. There is only loss for us and the Iraqis. Who won? Al Queda. As soon as Bush invaded Iraq, they won. They couldn't have asked for a better gift. More than 4000 Americans dead, trillions spent, our military bottled up in Iraq when their command and control was in Afghanistan. They won. Bush lost. On day one he lost. Al Queda managed to destroy a lot more than the twin towers and kill 3000 people on 9/11. With Bush's help, they divided America, helped consolidate the power of the American right, helped those who wanted to drop the hammer down on our civil liberties, and helped the oil companies increase their profits to levels never seen in the history of the world.
What the hell is wrong with this country? That ANYONE still thinks we can "win" in Iraq . . . is an absolute sign of our moral, ethical, and intellectual decline to the bottom of the heap.
Time to step up and tell the REPUBLICANS that they are CHICKENHAWKS, and the CORPORATE CONTROLED MEDIA has to be broken up. Pelosi,Hoyer,REID and the BUSH DEMOCRATIC DOGS have to GO.
Sorry, Cliff May is one of a growing list of right-wing fools that I simply cannot bear to watch or listen to. (bush is #1 on the list.) I'm glad you include transcripts so I can at least read that which I cannot stomach hearing.
Our American Taliban Rethugs try to use pride for America and ignorant white people as their cultural base to be manipulated.
The "Win" in the fraudulant Iraq war has taken longer than WWII for Bushie. They dont want to 'win' there or Afganistan anyway. They just want to milk the pockets of both America and the middle east. Higher gas prices and no bid govornment contracts anyone?
Their leaders are usually rich white people that never served their country. McCain is the anomoly. He still serves the rich cause though.
Stop enlisting in the military to do their dirty work, and stop paying taxes, they dont.
Vote Democrat, or third party, not rethug.
That is all.
Comments are closed on this entry