Bruce Ivins-Anthrax Scientist/FBI Story is a joke. Investigation needed of the FBI
This whole story concocted by the FBI smells really, really bad. Are we supposed to believe this yarn? I'll try to do a bunch of posts on this because it is a completely insane story. Did it really take seven years for the FBI to finally catch Bruce Ivins, a scientist who was working with anthrax and then helping the FBI to finger Steven J. Hatfill---who just so happens was wrongly accused and smeared until he happened to fight back?
June 27: The federal government awards Hatfill $5.8 million to settle his violation of privacy lawsuit against the Justice Department.
Have you ever seen a huge settlement like that right before they catch the real killer?
Did you watch the press conference yesterday? It absolutely made no sense. The feebs made it sound like there were millions of people that could have had access to anthrax. When they were asked why it took so many years to come up with Army scientist Bruce Ivins---they looked to the universe.
Q:When did you get around to him as a suspect from March 31st in 2005?
A: It's important to remember how complex and complicated this investigation was. At the outset we had to identify the universe of persons and labs that might have access to this type of anthrax. Once we identified what type of anthrax it was, then over the years there were efforts to shrink the size of the pool...
What the hell is he talking about? I'd say the FBI was drowning in a pool of lies. Are there 8 million people and labs to check out to see who actually had anthrax? I want to see the FBI logs on this case. The day to day activity. Really, there needs to be a full investigation of this. How many hours did they spend on this case? What did they know and when did they know it? Ivins was actually helping the FBI with their own case! It's right out a serial killer novel. I'll have more later. There are so many layers to this story.
Read this NY Times story for some information...
Emptywheel has a good time line.
And Glenn Greenwald is on top of it too.
There is something rotten in the State of Denmark!
I thought you knew....EVERYONE'S got it nowadays...
What makes you say that Hatfill was "wrongly accused"? That the gov't paid him a pile of money is no evidence (to me) that Hatfill is innocent.
I don't believe any of it. And everyone, even NPR, is spewing these personal items about Ivins. Which is exactly why we had to pay Hatfill 6 million.
It's easy to talk about someone who can't defend himself. This is a sham.
really, the FBI's story seems like it was pulled from a really bad novel.
from the crazy-insane scientist (who just happened to be one of the army's top experts on anthrax)
to the immediate character assassination after the story broke (he liked young girls, dont'cha know)
to the suicide--before he was ever talked to by any non-govt sources (convenient, helps the FBI frame the story however they please)
if this were the plot of a new novel i think most people would think it too cliche.
but, that said, i am not ready to declare any govt conspiracy (for several unmentioned reasons). although, things smell like rotting fish meat.
Cleaned up nicely just before BushCo leaves office.. how conveeeeenient.
The "suspect" died in the psych ward. The mainstream media is also trying to keep away from the public that Bruce Ivins died in the mental hospital. YOU DONT GET YOU HANDS ON DRUGS THAT CAN KILL YOU IN A PSYCH WARD.
Bruce Ivins was supposed to be released the following down.
DR. PHILILP ZACK is the REAL suspect.
I love Anthrax's "Attack of the Killer B's"
Every research laboratory is registered. All infectious agents and who will be working with them are registered. Apparently they didn't think to ask the NIH, USDA or the CDC who had this strain. Granted, agents were easier to get prior to 9/11 and it may have been something the lab had before the current checks and oversights. Retirees leave and don't bother to dispose of what's in the freezer before they walk out the door. But if there was a "pool" of potential labs to look at it shouldn't have taken this long.
Thank you for covering this...it smells indeed...badly...and Skippy and Keith on Countdown has been covering it as well...the FBI press Conference yesterday took the cake- held during the poor man's burial service ( so his friends and family would not see what was said about him...?)
Who knows what's going on with this. You just can't believe anything this government tells you.
Maybe they did not want to catch him. At the time they were leaking a connection to foreign terrorists. Doesn't it follow that they just didn't try very hard?
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ivins7-2008aug07,0,...
Here's the LA Times article on the matter.
Bruce Ivins was supposed to be released the following day.
The anthraz Bruce had contact with was in a liquid form and not the powered form that was static treated and was coated in Bentonite.
Dr. Philip Zach was fired from fort Detrick for racial attacks and illegally came back to fort Detrick and was let in to the area by an old collegue of the lab with the weaponized anthrax. It was caught on camera BUT the FBI will not go after him.
The FBI, CIA and Department of Justice all have a credibility problem. They know it and could help themselves by being open to a credible peer examination and review. This was suggested by scientists as SOP when a conclusion is reached in someone's research. The methodology and conclusions are attempted to be reproduced at other sites for verification and extrapolation for other conclusions then those drawn by the original researcher (the FBI labs). The results are then published in professional journals for further scrutiny. It's called "science" for a reason. The FBI should welcome such a review and the opportunity to have their own credentials validated by the larger science community.
Jesus Christ, does every freakin thing this government do a consiracy to you John??I hope you are ready for this type of crap when Obama is elected. Except it will be Hannity, OReilly and team that will be over thinking everyting the government does. Our side has to hold itself to a higher standard than those nuts. Please get a hold of yourself...
Mr. Blade needs to step away from the Kool Aid. He was found in his house, unconscious, and was taken to the hospital, where he died two days later. He was not scheduled for release, since he wasn't conscious.
I love a good conspiracy story and don't think we have even a tenth of this one (yet). But you're just being too weird. Go back to your Bldg 7 apartment and go some googling, dude.
Whoever it is in the FBI who killed/ordered killed Ivins, I hope they eventually fry. What a bogus bunch of crap.
Didn't they say the cause of death was an overdose of acetaminophen?
I didn't know acetaminophen could kill you. You'd have to take one helluva lot that drug to kill you.
And I think it would shut down your liver and or kidneys. Either way, you wouldn't die immediately.
how fortunate for bush co. to have this investigation wrapped up so nicely . especially when the better part of this year has been spent on building his legacy. oh my, and in an election year no less.
i mean it is not like they have used the f.b.i. to benefit their own agenda on the past , rigtht?
Is C&L saying there was a conspiracy?
Philip M. Zack, Lt. Col. (retired), Ph.D., DVM is an American microbiologist. 'Phil' Zack worked at USAMRIID in Fort Detrick through December 1991, then at the US Army's Walter Reed Institute, then for Eli Lilly, and then to a company in Colorado acquired by St. Louis' Nexstar Financial Management.
The Hartford Courant newspaper ran a series of articles in December 2001 and January 2002 which discussed Dr. Zack as a "person of interest" in the 2001 anthrax attacks in the US, his relationship with Dr. Marian K. Rippy, and their harassment of Dr. Ayaad Assaad at USAMRIID in 1991. [1] After Zack had been fired from Fort Detrick, a surveillance camera recorded him being let in at 8:40 p.m. on Jan. 23, 1992, apparently by Dr. Marian Rippy.[2] Salon magazine ran a story by Laura Rozen on January 26, 2002, which reported that Zack was among those: "eager to continue working on projects USAMRIID said they should stop. What followed, the documents reveal, were scientists sneaking into the Army biowarfare lab to work on pet projects after-hours and on weekends, former workers like Zack, who left in 1991, still being let in to do lab work, pressure applied to technicians to help out, documents going missing, and deliberate mislabeling of specimens among other efforts to hide unsanctioned lab work."[3]
Not only can Tylenol kill you, but it's a very painful death. Any one with Ivins' experience would know this. He would also have access to many less-painful ways to kill himself.
Of course, I'm not sure if LSD makes it easier. Maybe it does. So, maybe it wasn't so painful. And maybe he was too paranoid to come up with an easier method.
Here, lies the flaw in their plan.
With all past, alledged or legit, conspiracy coverups it would be easy to pull off. By controlling/influencing only a select few newspaper editors or television producers, they could control the message. Unanswered questions wouldn't get beyond the watercooler, and then forgot about by the next week. Holes could go unpatched. However, with the internet, you got many great minds willing to expose those holes to a degree that has not been possible in the past.
Sorry neo-con mafia, but Ivin's cement shoes aren't sinking this time.
Then I think an honest organization, if there is one left in this country, should look into the so called suicide. I don't believe he committed suicide...I guess since we question this whole damn investigation we will be next.
Well...Ronnie, I can totally see your POV...but I think, as with so many other instances in this administration...if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
The levels of corruption and incompetence in this administrations handling of absolutely everything just really boggles the mind...
An FBI cover up is totally within the realm of possibilities here.
8 samples had the mix that Ivins lab had.
And so the people with access to the blended mix are the people that had access one of those samples.
All the facts unveiled so far is that the same is "downstream" of that flask.
mudshark @ 19:
It musta been a SHIT load of acetaminophen...
Yeah this thing really does smell bad.
This suicide is too convenient,too cut and dried for the FBI and government.
Ivins may as well have had "Patsy" stamped on his forehead.
Dear C&L: Please add the very helpful link to the "Anthrax Vaccine" blog- by Dr. Meryl Nass. (Glenn Greenwald continually references her in his own posts on the troubling aspects of the FBI's case against Ivins.) She worked alongside Ivins for years, is one of the world's leading experts on Anthrax, and has continued to provide invaluable insights on the FBI's case from a true authority. Her skepticism about the FBI's "conclusive" case should be troubling to all of us.
Consider her recent posts:
Beyond a Reasonable Doubt?
FBI Subjectivity and Disinformation
More than 100 people had access
Now just one minute here. Bush told us it was Al Qaeda? This guy didn't look like no Al Qaeda to me. What am I not getting here?
Hey. I'm not for letting somebody off the hook just because I hate everything the government is up to these days but this crap does not add up. That guy on Olbermann laid it out very nicely last night and last Friday night. There is definitely something wrong here. But of course Joe Sixpack and Betty Winebox will eat it up like it is a double decker Big Mac.
Did any one else notice who Keith Olbermann had on Countdown last night as his "investigative journalist" that just couldn't accept that Ivins acted alone & was horrified that he was being convicted by the media after a suspicious death?
One Gerald Posner, acclaimed author of Case Closed the great Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman, there was no conspiracy, disinformation masterpiece.
He's gotten all this traction as a questioner of the official 9/11 story but i'm questioning the guys motives & allegiances.
Yeah, throw a dead guy under the bus! Er...
FOX is State Sponsored TV @ 4:
Are you referring to NPR finding that Ivin's played a murder in a play in HS? Yeah, it was painfully obvious that they were reaching with that one. I was jack the ripper in a college play which makes me a serial killer, i guess.
Personally, i think that this guy knew what was coming his way..
and thats why he commited suicide.
He probably framed the other scientist accused of the anthrax attack to get away with the attempt.
He did darken the reputation of those accused but justice would eventually get here.
The FBI only went after Hatfill and Ivins because they couldn't make a case against Richard Jewell.
Fucking Bunch of Incompetents - the FBI - your tax dollars at work.
If the FBI worked as hard in the '90s on counter-terrorism as they worked for Starr and Freeh in order to overthrow the president of their own country (treason?), then there never would have been a 9-11.
Maybe this is the second time the FBI has tried to pin the case on some fall guy? Unfortunately, this time they struck pay dirt by picking someone who killed himself rather than fought back and filed suit. Given this administration's certainty that their ends justified their means, maybe they figured this was just one more little stunt to help shore up their case for dictatorial powers and the license to go into Iraq; of course, they miscalculated and people ended up dying.
investigate 9/11 while your at it.
and JFK,
and MLK,
and RFK,
and so on and so on......
If you're in the mood for conspiracies, this is what you should keep an eye out for.
1) People start making noises about the lack of an autopsy.
2) The body is cremated, possibly at the supposed request of the family.
Extra:
3) Something nice happens to the family. (They don't seem to have a pile of DUIs to be ignored, so it will have to be something nice, instead of the removal of something bad.)
Have you ever seen a huge settlement like that right before they catch the real killer?
How about the $5 million the CIA (?) gave Habbush to write the letter tying al-Qaeda and Saddam and Yellowcake together? Suskind called $5 million a payoff (needs quotes).
what's sad is that the braindead zombie american populace either don't care or still believe the bs spewed by the gov't
Funny how the important witnesses and suspects all wind up dead.
another sticky aspect of the official story is the anthrax dna side of it.
not to say this isn't real, isn't efficacious, etc.
just that for the vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast majority of people we'll never have the knowledge to judge whether the dna claims are accurate.
it is harder to pick apart a contentious story when the deciding factor is beyond the scope of understanding of the public.
(note: i know NOTHING about dna technology)
What's wrong with YouTube?
This is quite the impressive performance by the FBI. Use Scientist A as a source to investigate Scientist B, who the FBI blames for sending the Anthrax. Do this for several years and never come to a conclusion, file charges or get an indictment against Scientist B. Settle a lawsuit for defamation of character with Scientist B, that the FBI originally blamed, with the help of the Scientist A. Immediately after settling with Scientist B, blame Scientist A, who the FBI used a source and then paint him as crazy despite everything that previous happened. Conveniently, Scientist A is now dead and therefore can't sue like Scientist B did.
You couldn't make this stuff up.
This story was very insane it took the FBI several years just to trackdown an scientist that was working with this deadly white powder that was placed in the mail of innocent bystanders , He made the bigggest mistake ever by working with a susbstance that can actually kill humans my view is that this guy is an idiot he must pay for his mistakes and next time the FBI should work harder and put more focus on the issues occuring in the community catching these people and cracking down on issuses is the way things should go thank god they finnally figured this case out.
Not even the Freeperz believe this. Of course, unlike us, they're determined to find a Moozie to blame. But the fact that they see the same glaring holes in this that we do makes me wonder just who is fooling whom. Busco is not even fooling some of the people some of the time with this one.
Its been asked over and over since the announcement that the FBI got their man who killed himself: HOW DID SOMEONE WITH MR. IVINS HISTORY OF MENTAL PROBLEMS GET CLEARANCE TO WORK ON WEAPONS GRADE ANTHRAX?
Someone is lying! Someone screwed up! Someone Paid off???
I hate this, all of this! Eight years ago I told anyone who would listen especially Bushies (people supporting W in 2000) that we would be on the brink of economic disaster by the end of W's term. Said the same thing in 2004 and those people still think he did a good job. NOW, we have all that we know about what happened and how the American public was lied to, Nancy Pelosi took impeachment off the table, high price of gas, heating oil, GOP lies about drilling and every other f@#$ing problem so we can all feel better because the Anthrax guy killed himself (maybe) and no one in government can make the connection that maybe, just maybe there's a little skull-duggery (skull and crossbones?) going on?
I don't feel any safer - Do You?
One of his heirs needs to file a wrongful death suit against the FBI (we can contribute to the fund). The discovery process should be able to force the FBI to provide all of the documents it has rather than just enough to bamboozle folks. Come January, maybe we can get a Congressional investigation?
surfjac @ 38:
Ah, but maybe he asked for more than money. Maybe Hatfill also required that the FBI be mean and nasty to anyone who pointed a finger at him. And who did that?
And to think only last week, Hirsch had information that people in Cheney's office talked about dressing Navy Seals as Iranians in gunboats...you know the rest.
if u did a poll the majority would say it was bin laden that did it. just another scare tactic in the build up to war in iraq and afghanistan. sending envelopes to liberals with anthrax is a small price to pay for the war profiteers getting their public support.
The thing that smells the worst in this whole episode was the leaks to ABC that this Anthrax came from Iraq from people supposedly out of Ft. Detrick. I am surprised that the FBI never followed up on this as this could actually lead to the person(s) that perpetrated this. There is your real conspiracy.
WTF is this guy talking about? He's acting like they were trying to pinpoint a meth-lab in the midwest and not a person with access to a rare compound. This stinks. Someone has vomited in the petunias and I don't like it. Not that I'm shocked that stuff like this goes on. Looks like about par for the course if you ask me.
bob @ 42:
Are you having problems playing video too?
This whole thing stinks. There is certainly a cover up. But what is the cover up? Incompetence, or something worse?
It makes me think that they're setting up a possible release of a weaponized virus soon.
It also makes me think that that they want EVERYONE to be a terror or terrorist suspect.
We are lead by fascist criminals. It's only a matter of time before everyone in the world realizes how much we are in trouble.
it is shit like this that leads to things like the truther movement being created
ya, the entire story stinks
and a full congressional investigation needs to be started
The parent flask of the sample in the investigation of the suspect of the validated science of the trial of the evidence of the steps of the focus of the individual of the delay of the cover up of the extensive task of the leading tremendous amount of the access of the nature of the time consuming tests of the including others that lead us to the lab of the suspect, Dr. Ivins.
There is no lie beneath these sell out criminals.
Guess what ,Ken Lay is innocent of all charges and so is Ivans. Simply suppositions and conjectures but we are all INNOCENT until convicted in a court of law not public opinion.
I don't get it. I remember years ago shortly after they first said that the anthrax came from the labs at Ft. Dietrick. It took 7 yeaars to identify who had access to the anthrax?
Uncle Joe Mccarthy @ 55:
Full congressional investigation? What? Are you kidding? And that will lead to? Nothing, as usual.
A couple of things come to mind. First, the FBI was desperate. It had to come up with a suspect. It focused for years on one guy and then turned to Ivins. Once it decided, without proof, that Ivins did it, it had to develop the proof which is basically Ivins had some mental problems, was pro-life, and had access to the anthrax. Therefore, he sent the anthrax.
Having been engaged in filing affidavits for search warrants over the years, I know there are two approaches to them First, if you really have probable cause you set it out cleanly. If you don't, you beat around the bush with all sorts of innuendos and rumors hoping that you can slip it by the judge. The FBI had no evidence to give the judge so it set out a lot of nonsense: a:/ Ivins is pro-life - Dashle and Leahy are pro-choice, [therefore Ivins sent them anthrax] b:/ Ivins had a hang up on a sorority, the mailbox from which the letters were mailed was near a sorority's office, [therefore Ivins mailed the letters;] c:/ Ivins had a post office box in a post office that may have sold the type of envelope the anthrax was sent in [therefore Ivins bought those envelopes.] This is exactly the type of nonsense you include in an affidavit when you have nothing else. These incriminating matters could apply to anyone in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area who was pro-life and used the post office. As far as the sorority evidence, there is nothing to show Ivins knew the Sorority office (actually a storage room) was located in Princeton, New Jersey I'm sure there are closer sorority places to where he lived and worked.
But what I find most intriguing is that the FBI had access to his emails and included some of the thousands he sent in the affidavit. How did it get that? Probably without a warrant under the Bush Administrations no need for a warrant policy. That means the FBI had the ability to go through all the emails of all the people who had access to the anthrax, pick out the one person who had mental problems, and pin the rap on him. it is a sad state of affairs.
It should also be noted, for those unfamiliar with the long history of FBI Cointelpro, that it would hardly be unprecedented for the FBI to deliberate use the media to circulate false rumors about someone they intended to discredit and stigmatize. The disgraceful FBI character assassination of leftist starlet Jean Sedberg comes to mind, in which the agency deliberately circulated false rumors via LA newspaper gossip rags of the impregnation of Sedberg by a member of the Black Panther Party to, in the FBI's own words, "to possibly cause her embarrassment and tarnish her image with the general public".
Under enormous stress brought on by the campaign of harassment and surveillance by the FBI, she gave birth prematurely. The infant died after two days. Seberg had an open-casket wake with her white-skinned dead baby to dispel the smears- but never fully recovered from the trauma of it all. She repeatedly attempted suicide afterwards- and eventually succeeded.
(Bonus link: 1958 Mike Wallace interview with Seberg she had become identified as an enemy of the state. Sponsored by the Phillip Morris, "A Man's Kind of Mildness").
What stands out too is Judy Miller was the ONLY one to receive fake anthrax....hmmmmm. That's just plain odd since we now know she was "reporting" on behalf of rove, libby and the whitehouse.. I hope these people burn in hell.
What are they covering up?
Someone from Cheney's office (or someone who is directing the Cheney Gang) got hold of weapons grade anthrax from Fort Detrick and sent it to the Congress People who needed scaring into signing the Patriot Act, and also sent it to enough non-Congressional types to terrify the nation, and concocted the tale that this anthrax could only have come from Iraq.
That's what they are covering up.
Just my guess.
:)
Our old friend Donald Rumsfeld, former chairman of Board of Directors for Gilead might have some answers.
Remember in 2005, when millions of doses of Gilead's Tamiflu were produced and sold to protect us from Avian Flu? (""So the U.S. placed an order for 20 million doses of this worthless drug at a price of $100 per dose. That comes to a staggering $2 billion." http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/10/327804.shtml).
Gilead - and Bush-connected Bayer - also makes Cipro. Surprise!
Probably just a co-wincky-dink, or a known known...
bonnie@16 Racking up a few mccain points are we? Hard to see anything where your head is, pull it out into the light and look at the way they have conducted this investigation and the off-norm items they are using as evidence, this type of crap used to be called creative report writing 1-A or CYA to prevent civil lawsuits. You can believe the FBI knows how to build a case. You can believe that if this guy was guilty their would be good solid evidence and time line of events, not wild speculation or off the wall theory by some head doctor who can't spell and has a long arrest record for DUI with pending cases on a court docket. Wake up john? Pull it out bonnie.-CEO
Thanks for covering this John, I really hope this story doesn't fall through the cracks as it perfectly symbolizes the Bush mis-administration.
I have a feeling that whoever *really* sent those spores is long since pushing up daisies as nobody in their right mind would *ever* leave that person around for very long. Loose ends/lips, etc. It was just the matter of finding an appropriate patsy that took some time. It is truly miraculous that they convict an AQ mastermind taxi driver and a dead scientist that wrap up big terr'rist investigations all within a couple of weeks and conveniently just before a big election.
And why was Ivins suicided?
Because he knew too much about what actually happened.
64 Gimme some truth vacine Says: Our old friend Donald Rumsfeld, former chairman of Board of Directors for Gilead might have some answers.
Remember in 2005, when millions of doses of Gilead’s Tamiflu were produced and sold to protect us from Avian Flu? (”"So the U.S. placed an order for 20 million doses of this worthless drug at a price of $100 per dose. That comes to a staggering $2 billion.” http://portland.indymedia.org/.....7804.shtml).
Gilead - and Bush-connected Bayer - also makes Cipro. Surprise!
Probably just a co-wincky-dink, or a known known…
=======
You mean Heroin Bayer?
Zyklon-B Bayer?
THAT Bayer?
It's a lie and a scam, you can tell, look at all Republican B.S. They all ways throw a bunch of Shiite against the wall and pray some of it will stick. <b. Army scientist Bruce Ivins had possession of purified anthrax spores linked to the deadly 2001 attacks. He worked alone.
He submitted false anthrax samples to FBI officials to throw investigators off his trail. He tried to frame unnamed co-workers and threatened to kill anyone who wronged him.
No proof in any of the charges, and his anthrax was liquid form
So a "universe" of people have access to Anthrax? Nice
Any government agency should be investigated for total corruption by the bush crime family. The crime family has done nothing right so why start now. Even the Secret Service needs to be investigated on how they protect Sen. Obama when a person with fake press credentials is allowed close to him without any problems. What a shame these republic hacks have taken over perfectly good agencies and turned them into a political machine for the repubic party!!
I really really don't want to think that Alex Jones and those nuts might be right about something, but this really really smells like a false flag operation. Sounds like he was about to sing, and they Ken Layed him.
No mention of this guy, Dr. Zack Philips.
http://www.aztlan.net/zack.htm
Stay on it, John. Despite the best efforts of alot of very powerful people and some erstwhile smart black ops types somebody fucked this up very badly, and the door has now been opened -- a crack admittedly -- maybe just enough to get to the bottom of this whole thing, 9/11 possibly included. Just don't be afraid to go places that are going to be unpopular. Start with Phillip Zack.
36 Obummer Says: investigate 9/11 while your at it.
and JFK,
and MLK,
and RFK,
and so on and so on……
also check the JFK, JR plane crash. Quite suspicious. Can't seem to get any answers (flight instructor's presence/body and the plane's seat missing, flight plan mising, flight bag including contents missing, etc. missing)-TOO MANY MISSING ANSWERS. everything's secret
natteringnaybob @ 72:
Did I reverse 1st name, last name?
Ron @ 74:
LOL! I guess I did.
"The indivual is handicapped, by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous, that he cannot believe that it exists" J Edgar Hoover---CEO
Who watches the watchmen??
IF it is true that Ivins acted alone with anthrax he got from his U.S. Gov't lab... Then where is the investigation of the four separate gov't sources that told ABC news back in 2003 that the anthrax DEFINITELY came from Iraq? Hello? If Ivins worked alone then these 4 gov't sources were lying in a way that would have focused attention away from Ivins. Obstruction of Justice? Govt' propaganda against America much?
The FBI should be brought up on murder charges, period. It is obviously a witch hunt to make thenselves look better than they are and now the real anthrax mailing "terrorist" is not even going to be caught. They are gonna end it here and thats it. They got their patsy!!!
The universe of domestic labs and people is easy and should have been where they start, if for no other reason than to elimiate those labs and people as suspects. Possible foreign sources, that is a big universe and complex to investigate, but it is horseshit that it would take seven years to track it in down in a DOD facility in this country.
Never mind that, The Buffalo Beast is smuggling al Qaeda across the Canadian border!!1!
If I went to the booger pickers convention in Gun Barrel TX and suddenly remembered I had to mail off my electric bill, and did so while there, what would I be suspected of?
And ooh, he got vaccines a week or so before the first mailing...
Well...duh...he worked with dangerous materials.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syBH1aJOH5A
Brilliant and courageous scientist and researcher, Dr. Leonard Horowitz, has been addressing this very issue for years.
The CIA's Role in the Anthrax Mailings:
Could Our Spies be Agents for Military-Industrial Sabotage, Terrorism, and Even Population Control?
Bravo to C & L for addressing this charged issue ... and may God bless and protect Dr. Horowitz and all doctors and scientists and activists and journalists speaking out such complex and highly charged matters.
.....There is something rotten in the State of Denmark.....
1 - Alex X. Copenhagen, specifically?
THIS SOUNDS AN AWFUL LOT LIKE A CONSPIRACY THEORY AKIN TO 911. perhaps C and L would do well to quash this one as well.
Mr. Blade @ 14:
http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/PhilipZack.html
..... But of course Joe Sixpa......
29 - Captain Bitter. I think I talked to Joe Sixpack today. He's owns an electronics repair shop in Florida. Mid-50's. Planning to travel the USA in a Winnebago when he retires in a couple of years -- "because Americans have passport problems and arn't liked overseas and anyway, there is plenty to see right here in my own backyard".
Of course, he's entitled to his opinion, but I just felt it my duty to inform Mr. Sixpack that Americans ARE liked overseas and that it's his stupid president who is NOT liked overseas. Then I reminded him that it's the same president that brainwashed him and tried to brainwash the whole world with fear tactics. At that point, Mr. Sixpack left the chat.
The restless consumer lies
Asleep in her hotel
With such an appetite
For anything that sells
A hundred voices from a hundred lands
Need someone to listen
People are dying here and there
They don't see the world the way you do
There's no mission accomplished here
Just death to thousands
A hundred voices from a hundred lands
Cry out in unison
Don't need no terror squad
Don't want no damned Jihad
Blowin' themselves away in my hood
But we don't talk to them
So we don't learn from them
Hate don't negotiate with Good
Don't need no more lies
Don't need no more lies
Don't need no more lies
Don't need no more lies
The restless comsumer flies
Around the world each day
With such an appetite for efficiency
And pace...
Don't need no more lies.
-Neil Young
The Restless Consumer
liberalMcTireGaugeO'JusticeNmoderation @ 28:
Mudshark, you should be aware that acetaminophen is indeed an excellent suicide poison. Very deadly. You didn't know that because your not knowing is supposed to deter you from selecting it as a suicide option.
The Bush "administration" demonstrates once again their belief that government departments should not be staffed by the best and brightest, but by the loyal, the faithful and by rejects from the private sector. (per Thomas Frank)
"At the outset we had to identify the universe of persons and labs that might have access to this type of anthrax."
Where did they keep it? On top of the counter in main enterance candy shop? Next to the boxcutters?
Tom Clancy, are you getting this? Why are you rolling on the ground, laughing?
61 Charles Says: Uncle Joe Mccarthy @ 55:
it is shit like this that leads to things like the truther movement being created
ya, the entire story stinks
and a full congressional investigation needs to be started
Full congressional investigation? What? Are you kidding? And that will lead to? Nothing, as usual.
Another stern letter?
....... Even the Secret Service needs to be investigated on how they protect Sen. Obama when a person with fake press credentials is allowed close to him without any problems.......
So what else is new? One of the Bush twins had her purse stolen while she was being guarded by the Secret Service!!
I recognize there a honorable agents in the both the CIA and FBI, but these two agencies have been compromised by foreign entities. Both of these agencies are in the Executive Branch which is a major problem. It won't be long before this country has no scientists or honest intelligence agents. Who could blame them? One day you are the investigator, the next day you are public enemy number 1.
The fact that Ivins was a registered Democrat raises questions as well. Interesting that letters were sent to Daschle and Leahy who were the two people in Congress at the time that could have stopped the passing of the Patriot Act.
Mr. Blade has this one right I believe. Look at the attacks against Dr. Assaad and then look at the notes that were inclosed in the anthrax letters. Same MO. Immature and unprofessional.
In case anyone missed it. Excellent questions are raised from the link in Mike's Blog Roudup Section on C&L
DCist: Anthrax case has some big holes in it.
97 Centrocitta Says: ……. Even the Secret Service needs to be investigated on how they protect Sen. Obama when a person with fake press credentials is allowed close to him without any problems…….
So what else is new? One of the Bush twins had her purse stolen while she was being guarded by the Secret Service!!
What about her virginity?
ysbaddaden @ 101:
It wasn't stolen. She gave it away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEFmXoAhyFY
It would have been fun to see what a good defense attorney could have done to the government's case in court. They seem to be doing an "Empty Chair" prosecution.
The government wouldn't have given Steven Hatfill millions of dollars if they still thought he was still a suspect. Has everyone forgotten Richard Jewell. The FBI has a history of being very, very wrong at times.
This explantion stinks TWO Major Democratic Senators in very key positions were assaulted by this product not counting the untold MILLIONS spent in the wrongful prosecution of another Scientist that just received MILLLIONS because of the fumbling Bumbling Investigators. This STINKS WHITE HOUSE coverup VP coverup . Investigate the FBI.
does the anthrax trail lead to the bush white house?
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/anthrax_trail_leads_to_Bush.html
how bout that madam in florida...since we are talking unresolved cases? where is her book of johns from the capitol?
Add this to the list of items needed for an Congressional investigation. Damn that is a long list. Between impeachment and the list of items needing investigation we need a new branch of government. The Figure Out How The Bush Administration Has Screwed Up and Fix It Branch. Congress sure can't do the job. The Justice Department is out and don't get me started on the Supreme Court.
You mentioned a serial killer novel and it reminded me of the story that said they were having professional novel writers come in after 9/11 to help them "imagine" the possible terrorist attacks on this country. You'll recall all of the "we never could have imagined" statements made by the administration around that time.
The anthrax story is something that easily could have been "imagined" by these guys.
Mr. Blade @ 7:
That is an excellent point. Do you have any links to articles that say he died in a psych ward? (Not saying I don't believe you I would just like to follow up and learn more). The story about his "suicide" is in itself very fishy. First they said he died of taking an overdose of Tylenol with Codeine (these are called Tylenol No 3 and Tylenol No. 4) which would be possible but would take a lot of the pills and if he died in a psych ward he would have gotten very quick attention so they would have been able to take him to an emergency room and pump his stomach. Also, Tylenol with Codeine is an old drug that used to be used for pain relief but is seldom prescribed anymore because the Codeine is an old style narcotic that can kill in large enough doses. So who prescribed pain medicine with Codeine to a guy that was suicidal or homicidal rather then something less potentially harmful such as Vicodin?
Later reports I've read just say he died from "an overdose of Tylenol" which I don't think is even possible. As I understand it Tylenol alone could kill you over the long term due to damage to your liver or kidneys but a massive dose would make you very sick but not result in death.
This story reminds me of the nut who "confessed" to Jon Benet Ramsey's murder a year or two ago. The media jumped all over that too.
Brad @ 93:
Can you back this up? The book Final Exit by Derek Humphry is a manual for people who want to end their lives with dignity and I just double checked it. He lists the most common drugs useful for suicide and never mentions acetaminophen . There is only one mention of acetaminophen in the index and that is in reference to another drug that is a combination of Darvon with acetaminophen and the discussion is all about the potential use of Darvon.
Ronnie @ 16:
I'm very skeptical of much of the 9/11 truth movement, for example the ideas of remote controlled planes and demolitions that brought down the towers. I agree with you its a mistake to see conspiracies everywhere. However, its also a mistake to accept everything at face value, especially from an administration that is incompetent and trying to cover its ass. Also, you don't have to believe that the Anthrax was mailed from Cheney's office to question that the particular guy the justice department is claiming to be the killer is the wrong one. I think one of the things the left does wrong is that many of us are so afraid to be labelled "conspiracy nuts" that we don't criticize strongly enough. Bringing to light that the FBI may have again bungled the investigation highlights how the common media frame that we are safer under the GOP is a big lie and will help Obama get elected. BTW, that is also why I think people who publicize 9/11 conspiracy theories that are at best speculation do a dis-service to the left. They make it harder to raise the quite justifiable criticism that Bush never really investigated the crimes nor caught the people who funded and supported the terrorists.
Carmikl @ 104:
if there was some organization, or even a rogue faction of some better-funded intelligence agency, either foreign or domestic, framing ivins by leaving dirty "evidence" out there like easter eggs for the fbi... how would anyone know?
MikeD @ 110:
After I had surgery on my broken leg, Tylenol with Codeine was at the bottom of the hierarchy of pain relievers offered to me to relieve the pain. Oxycodone was at the top, followed by Percocet then Vicodin. The Tylenol with Codeine really did very little to kill the pain, and I found aspirin to be more effective. I didn't ask for anything up the hierarchy because I didn't want to become dependant. I just used aspirin. Somehow overdosing on Tylenol with Codeine just doesn't sound right.
Mr. Blade @ 7:
It seems as if the story is that he committed suicide right after being released from the psych ward:
Ultimately, Byrne feels Ivins’ apparent suicide was triggered when he was removed from Fort Detrick by police after ranting about weapons and making death threats, and admitted to a psychiatric ward. “I think he committed suicide when he walked out of the building, escorted by law enforcement officials,” Byrne told Vieira. “That meant the end of his career. That meant he never had a scientific career.”
"Byrne" is Dr. Russell Byrne one of Ivins' colleagues. This quote is from an article on the Today Show web site.
It's as if a corrupt Department of Justice were conspiring with some secret government spy agency, like the CIA, to help it get away with murder and treason by framing a single, socially inept scientist and badgering him into committing suicide.
Lairs!
This is a sham. I want my taxes back! F this government and all its accomplices!
Ronnie @ 16:
Go read what Invins own colleagues said about him after his death, not one of them said he was the perp, they coundnt believe it was him.
mudshark @ 19:
ODed and found on sunday then died on tuesday,
all the gubbermunts money, Americas top doctors and the best ICU in the world coundnt save or prolong the life of the USA's most wanted terrorist suspect !
suspicious definitely, did they bother to try to get him stable enough to answer questions we ask ourselves.
And the real anthrax villain is:
Dr. Phillip Zack
Dr. Phillip Zack
Dr. Phillip Zack
And the unasked question of the day is:
Why did Zack try to make it look like US/Israel-hating Muslims did it?
[Edited. Point taken, Kevin. But typing the guy's name in that many times hogs bandwidth- and bandwidth ain't cheap. Please remember this in the future. Thanks! :D Site Monitor]
There are a lot of people who have the means, motive, and opportunity to commit a crime, who are perfectly innocent. I think that sometimes the government believes that just because he could have done it, then he must have done it.
surfjac @ 51:
You just know that somebody in the WH was a keen fan of gay porn stars (pretend journalists) in WH bathtubs.
more good stuff at anthrax vaccine and mike the mad biologist.
Kevin @ 121:
Good point editor. Also, rather than just list his name you might give some information that makes you think he is the culprit. I did a Google search and found that Zack was known to be anti-arab. He made harassing comments to an Egyptian biologist who worked at the lab and was initially thought by the FBI to be a suspect due to anonymous tips (that quite plausibly may have come from Zack). However, that's about all I found in the way of evidence implicating him. Also, Zack seems to be the target of a number of neo-nazi sites due to the fact that people think he is Jewish which in fact he isn't: http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/PhilipZack.html
Charles @ 56:
One interesting tidbit that came out (TY MSM) is that Hatfill designed and supervised the building of a mobile Anthrax production lab.
If anybody doesnt know this breaks pretty much every UN and Geneva convention rule on bio warfare, and assorted cold war era treaties on no offensive bio weapons.
NYT
Then theres the case of the dead UK scientist playing with a dirty bomb in Scotland oops boom, no more MoD scientist.
Then one year later another UK terror weapon expert and the UKs loan expert to the UN in Iraq, Dr. David Kelly dies in a wood wrists slashed seven times both wrists, no blood according to witnesses who see his body on the ground..
'I feared I'd end up dead in the woods like Dr Kelly,' says biological warfare expert who criticised Britain and U.S.
Dr. Frank Olson (1953)
It was dangerous to be a bio warfare scientist in late 2001, many started dying.
Britain lost quite a few defense scientists to mysterious deaths and outright murders in the 90s.
It was like somebody or something was knocking them off a list.
[Edited. Point taken, Kevin. But typing the guy’s name in that many times hogs bandwidth- and bandwidth ain’t cheap. Please remember this in the future. Thanks! :D Site Monitor]
Will do.
MountainMan23 @ 70:
Yes, THAT Bayer: Wikipedia:
"Bayer became part of IG Farben, a conglomerate of German chemical industries which formed the financial core of the Nazi regime. IG Farben owned 42.5% of the company that manufactured Zyklon B[citation needed], a chemical used in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. During World War II the company extensively used slave labour in factories attached to German concentration camps, notably the sub-camps of the Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp[4]. When the Allies split IG Farben after World War II for involvement in several Nazi war crimes, Bayer reappeared as an individual business. Bayer executive Fritz ter Meer, sentenced to seven years in prison by the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal, was made head of the supervisory board of Bayer in 1956, after his release.[5]"
And the other side of this, is why does ABC not disclose who their "four well-placed sources" are for the crucial five days of reporting where they implicated Iraq by saying bentonite was found in the anthrax...when in fact none ever was?
Protecting them as sources is not an issue according to other journalists, since these "sources" were spoon-feeding them misinformation. Wouldn't it be nice to know who coordinated four well-placed sources to lie to a major news outlet about this, when it was at least partially instrumental in making the case for the tie between 9/11 and Iraq in the public mind? Keeping in mind that the anthrax letters began about a week after 9/11, and included notes praising Allah to implicate Muslims.
And according to this article, FBI Director Mueller said that White House officials repeatedly pressured him to prove it was a second-wave assault by Al Qaeda. The article also mentions how both Bush and Cheney used the opportunity to publicly drop hints to the same effect.
Kevin @ 122:
Like most of us that have researched Zack, it is obvious that the FBI have intentionally overlooked him for some reason....hmmmmm.........I wonder why that could be?
MikeD @ 114:
Ever since the JFK assassination, the term "conspiracy theorist" has been programmed into us to synonomous with "mental nutjob lunatic". It serves the government well for us to be shamed into admitting a belief in conspiracy, despite the historical proof that, in fact, conspiracies do occur, even at high levels of government.
Well, guess what? Proof that there's more than one person involved in this anthrax case. Can you handle it?
ABC News is implicated by failure to retract falsified accounts from Sept. 28, 2001 from within the lab where Ivins worked, that linked the anthrax attacks to Iraq, while citing four highly-placed, independent sources".
ABC appears to be protecting the "four sources" of that false information. This would obviously implicate more people than just Ivins or Hattfeld.
Look up Glen Greenwald at Salon
The investigation then finally focused on the investigators ass, they then knew conclusively who the culprit was and where the anthrax came from.
Kevin @ 22... The man's name is actually Dr. Philip M. Zackerie (Dr. Zack). He is said to be a double agent.
John,
Maybe make a post listing the questions raised in these comments. There's enough for a few years of investigations!
Here's mine:
Why did ABC News (via government sources) give the impression that there were only a few possible sources for this strain of anthrax, but now the FBI says, "At the outset we had to identify the universe of persons and labs that might have access to this type of anthrax."
The situation in the FBI's "outset" and ABC's "outset" are different. In the FBI's "outset", there were a universe of possibilities; in the ABC's outset, there were only a few possibilities and one probability - Iraq.
This stinks of either incredible incompetence or incredible criminality, either of which deserve to be investigated thoroughly!
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