John Amato interviews Naomi Klein about the next Shock Doctrine: 'The Wall Street Bailout Giveaway'
By John Amato Friday Sep 26, 2008 4:00pm
Part 1
Part 2
Thursday night I was joined by the brilliant Naomi Klein, author of The Shock Doctrine,” to talk about the current economic Shock Capitalism that is taking place right now, thanks to Bush and Paulson's 700 billion dollar plan to bail out Wall Street. And all the wealthy free-market conservative CEOs that drained Main Street for ungodly sums of money until all the financial institutions began to crash and burn are cheering. Bush's base is comprised of these CEOs and they pulled off the ultimate "complexity scheme" on the American people. Naomi hits on some very important ideas during this twenty minute interview.
Klein: But I think that it's important to stress that this is money that could be used for actively preventing foreclosures. They could be using this money - a fraction of it - to keep people in their homes. They could be stimulating and rebuilding the fundamentals of the economy by investing in infrastructure, public works projects, a green-style New Deal - all of the investments that are so desperately needed. New technology, investing in the real economy and getting away from this casino economy. And because they want to throw all this money at Wall Street, that is money that will not be available for those real investments.
Say goodbye to Universal Health Care if McCain is elected. John and the House Republicans are now trying to pull another scam on the American people ,which is another tried and true method that conservatives use. As Digby says: They run as Populists, but govern as Aristocrats. It works all too well. It's a wonderful scam. Now, I'm not saying that a deal shouldn't take place, but a cautious approach should be paramount. As Krugman says: The Dodd-Frank changes make the plan less awful, mainly by creating an equity stake... Also, the oversight means that Treasury can be prevented from making the plan a pure gift to financial evildoers. If the plan looks not-awful enough, I'll be pro. But I won't be cheering - I'll be holding my nose.
Klein: And they all knew it. They all knew it and they were making money as fast as they could based on their belief that they would get bailed out. Because it is entirely consistent with the Bush administration over the past 7 years. One of the other big lies floating around is this is somehow a departure from the way the Bush administration usually does business. It's not a departure; it's just a change in the direction of the flow. This is what they have been doing for 7 years: transferring public money, public wealth, into the hands of private crony contractors. And now as their final act they are taking the bad debts of the corporate sector and transferring them to the taxpayer. There is no aberration here; there is no big surprise. This is entirely consistent with everything they've done.
For instance, where the heck did this $700 billion figure come from in the first place? A Treasury Department spokeswoman told Forbes.com this week, quote, "It's not based on any particular data point, we just wanted to choose a really large number." A really large number? That's the calculus among our nation's leading economic theorists and managers? We just need a ton of money; we don't know how much, just make the pile really tall? Isn't economics a science? Not reassuring.
Just think about that figure. They pulled it out of thin air. Here's the interview. (full transcript below the fold)
Amato: Hey this is John Amato with Crooks and Liars and I am joined by a very special guest, Miss "Shock Doctrine" herself Naomi Klein. Naomi thanks for joining Crooks and Liars and jumping back into the blogosphere.
Klein: Great to talk with you.
Amato: Well, it's a busy time today. I'm sure everybody is asking your opinion on what's going on. Just real quick, tell people what the Shock Doctrine is and what is Disaster Capitalism?
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Klein: Well, the Shock Doctrine is a political strategy that the Republican Right has been perfecting over the past 35 years to use for various different kinds of shocks. They could be wars, natural disasters, economic crises, anything that sends a society into a state of shock to push through what economists call "Economic Shock Therapy" - rapid-fire, pro-corporate policies that they couldn't get through if people weren't in a state of fear and panic. This is a move that the Bush administration is very fond of; they did it after 9/11, privatized the War on Terror. We are seeing the Shock Doctrine in action right now with the exploiting of people's fear trying to deepen that fear (we saw that with Bush's address) to ram through unprecedented corporate giveaways which will later be used to rationalize cuts to social programs and more privatization and deregulation in the name of getting the economy back on track after they've screwed it up.
Amato: That's it in a nutshell. We are really witnessing it first hand, up close and personal. Now at least with your book and your ideas we have a blueprint to draw on and to actually see how all this has taken place. When you look at $700 billion and then you go how much is Barack Obama's nationalized health care - I saw a figure $85 billion. When you are talking about $700 billion and $85 billion -
Klein: The $85 billion is the AIG bailout alone.
Amato: There you go. We'd rather bail out AIG than help people with universal healthcare. It's really a sad state of affairs. Today, as you know, has been a 3-ring circus.
Klein: It has and I think it's really important for people to understand that this bailout is as bad tomorrow as it was today. The only thing that has changed is its bipartisanship. A couple of fig leaves have been put in front of it to make it a little more presentable, but the core of this deal is totally corrupt. It is a bad plan. The only people this plan is good for is Wall Street. There is no guarantee that it is going to fix the problem that it is supposedly going to fix, but one thing we do know is that it is a bomb that will explode on U.S. taxpayers because of this massive debt that has been incurred. I mean, this $700 billion is twice as large as the projected deficit for this year, so this is an incredible burden. These bad debts were described as sticks of dynamite in these companies that the government is taking out of their hands. Well, they're not just taking them out of their hands because now the dynamite is now in Washington and it's going to explode and then it will be used against whichever administration. If Obama wins, then this will be the dynamite to say that he can't forward his health plan.
Amato: That's right, and if McCain gets in he can cut every program he wants in the name of saving America: "I'm cutting this to save America." I mean, this jingoism is just sickening. You know what the Democrats should do? When McCain said he was going to suspend his campaign and go to Washington they should have all just left and said "if John McCain is coming in we will not have a deal." This is all political theater. We all know what is going on and I think a lot of people do see it too. Usually, people get frustrated about the average American voter because they're worried about their lives and they're not into the whole nuts and bolts of what's going on but I think the American people (we've seen the polls) know it's a political stunt. This is textbook Republican disaster capitalism. They come in - Paulson, Bernanke- the sky's falling, we have to do something now. And now they're going to make John McCain swoop in. And who will foot the bill? Americans.
Klein: And the other thing I think we need to stress is the extraordinary level of responsibility in the Bush Administration in allowing this crisis to get to the point that it got to, which was not just predictable but predicted. Alan Greenspan was saying a year ago that there was a housing bubble, and what bubbles do is they burst because they are filled with hot air. Everyone knows it. This was entirely predicted, and they end up with a two and a half page - barely two and a half page - plan with one idea, which is to turn the U.S. government into the world's biggest trash can. Take all of this trash and give it to the taxpayers. That is their only idea, their only preparation.
Amato: That was one of the most insane things I've ever seen, and of course John McCain hasn't read those two and a half pages yet.
Klein: He didn't have time. I have to say - I've said this before that their biggest mistake was how short it was because it was short enough that people actually read it. Usually what they do is ram through legislation that's hundreds of pages long and say we have to do it in two days and nobody has a chance to read it, then they read it after the fact. But I think in its case brevity really was their downfall
Amato: For the first time!
Klein: One thing I think is important is to resist this bipartisanship. At this point this is not a moment that the priority is bipartisanship; the priority is intelligence. The priority is in getting to the root of this problem. The financial sector has abused the trust of the American people. There's a couple of other points I want to stress. This idea of John McCain scapegoating greedy CEOs is obviously a joke because he is flanked by some of the greediest CEOs in the world. But the real thing is you can't be shocked by the fact that CEOs want to make as much money as they possibly can. That's like being shocked that movie stars want to be famous and that politicians want power. This is what corporations are built to do, this is what CEOs are built to do and it's the role of government to regulate them.
Amato: Right. You know, that CEO pay, it's almost like the MacGuffin of this whole thing. They got $42 million or they got $20 million and that's horrible. But when you talk about $700 billion, $20 million is really inconsequential. It's about the abuse that you were talking about, this whole system. Did you get a chance to read Paul O'Neil's book that Ron Suskind wrote? In it the most interesting chapter was when he wanted CEOs to be accountable. And it was the CEOs that called Bush! In the book he said they were his "base." And in the book the CEOs revolted and said they'd rather resign than actually sign a paper that said their books were in order. This is insane.
Klein: Let's remember that Henry Paulson was chosen to replace Paul O'Neil because he was a team player.
Amato: Again, this bubble was not only going to burst, it was going to explode like no other bubble before it.
Klein: And they all knew it. They all knew it and they were making money as fast as they could based on their belief that they would get bailed out. Because it is entirely consistent with the Bush administration over the past 7 years. One of the other big lies floating around is this is somehow a departure from the way the Bush administration usually does business. It's not a departure; it's just a change in the direction of the flow. This is what they have been doing for 7 years: transferring public money, public wealth, into the hands of private crony contractors. And now as their final act they are taking the bad debts of the corporate sector and transferring them to the taxpayer. There is no aberration here; there is no big surprise. This is entirely consistent with everything they've done.
Amato: I completely agree. The shock of the American people - this isn't like 9/11. When we - I'm from New York and I had friends in the World Trade Center - when I saw that I was truly shocked. And I was in shock for two weeks after I saw the towers go down. With this whole financial market - when people read we had to bail out AIG and Lehman Bros. went under - to the average American that's still not that kind of a shock. That's why Bush and Paulson had to go on TV and give you that exclamation point. You can go read Paul Krugman; I think Richard Shelby was waving some paper out there. He has 20 economists (he doesn't say which ones) saying Paulson's idea is wrong. Does anybody really know what's going to happen?
Klein: Well of course not. What Bush was saying when he went on television last night was that we have to bail out the people at the very top because it's going to trickle down back to you. There are many more ways of helping Americans who are in foreclosure on their homes and even helping companies that are not able to access credit. You can actually do it directly, you can do it from the bottom up instead of saving the people at the top and hoping it trickles down. And I think that the anger of Americans directed at Wall Street in this bailout is a very fair comeuppance for Wall Street because there has been a total severing between what is good for Wall Street and what is good for Americans. In the '90s this was the line "What's good for Wall Street is good for Main Street." Americans do not believe that; they know it's not true. It's been Wall Street's predatory practices - not just subprime - bedding up companies that laid off workers, rewarding companies for moving jobs overseas, just acting in predatory ways in myriad ways and exacerbating the climate crisis and acting in completely irresponsible ways. They have severed themselves from regular people and now when they're going down regular people don't believe that things are bad for them too. And that was Bush's job was - to try to scare people to say what's bad them is bad for you. But after so many years of what's good for the elite not being good for regular people, it's a much harder sell.
Amato: Again, it's almost a different set of rules with this one.
Klein: But I think that it's important to stress that this is money that could be used for actively preventing foreclosures. They could be using this money - a fraction of it - to keep people in their homes. They could be stimulating and rebuilding the fundamentals of the economy by investing in infrastructure, public works projects, a green-style New Deal - all of the investments that are so desperately needed. New technology, investing in the real economy and getting away from this casino economy. And because they want to throw all this money at Wall Street, that is money that will not be available for those real investments.
Amato: No... which has been a complete failure. I've been writing that conservatism is dead. One of the fundamental problems (I don't want to get into the election too much) has been this bipartisanship notion which kind of drives me off the rails. The Republicans run this country and the whole goal is to get rid of the New Deal and destroy every program that's helped Americans because it lessens their profit margin. They've been able to do that over these last 8 years and Americans see this. That's why there's so much more anger towards Wall Street because the wealth now - it's like we're going into royalty, right? These people used to be buying houses and now they're looking for villas. And people are really feeling this crunch.
Klein: The smartest thing that the Obama campaign could do is oppose this bailout.
Amato: I completely agree and I think they should get out in front of it because McCain is going to come out tomorrow and he's to go to the debate, but he's going to say...again, do you watch that show "Mad Men"? It's like they are the perfect ad men because their jingoistic talking points are so simple to sell. Even though they're destroying you, they can paint it so they're saving you. Obama should say no, he should get out in front of this.
Klein: The more he has taken direct aim, the more he has stood up to the ideology of Wall Street these past two weeks, the better his numbers have been. He is in line with where people are at. He's worried about those blue collar votes? Go and get them. Oppose this bailout. It's unpopular.
Amato: I agree. The Republicans needed to do something. Once this bailout started - this has been planned for a long time. It's at the end of his administration. It didn't all of a sudden today "oh, we need this $700 billion." They've been planning this.
Klein: They've been planning this for six months.
Amato: And it's really sickening. He should probably demand that Paulson be fired. If Paulson comes up with a two and a half page - can you imagine? If you were working in a corporation like Paulson was, say Goldman-Sachs. Imagine if one of his employees came up to him and gave him a two and a half page plan to bail out his company. What would he do to that guy?
Klein: [laughing] No, it's truly extraordinary. It is born of a lack of transparency, a lack of accountability. The Paulson plan is "Let me dig a really big, deep dark hole and throw $700 billion into it."
Amato: We talk about these numbers - again, they're so incomprehensible. Until you break down what you can buy with $700 billion or a trillion dollars...
Klein: And we're up to a trillion. If you include AIG, Bear Stearns, and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac we're over a trillion.
Amato: Wall Street is quite all right with their wingnut welfare. But where is O'Reilly saying "Just pull up your boot straps"; "This is America"; "You too can be successful if you just work hard enough." But that's not true with Wall Street.
Klein: That thing that's important that you get out there now is that we had a window where we had people like Chris Dodd speaking out against this plan because they were getting bombarded with calls from their constituents. But starting tomorrow the Democrats are going to be spinning this as hard as the Republicans because they're going to claim that they won big victories. They're going to say that they got equity, that they protected against corporate greed, they won the most token concessions. None of it is meaningful; all of it can be gotten around. The sickness at the core - that $700 billion - this deal is bad. It was bad yesterday, it's bad tomorrow and everybody should be opposing it.
Amato: I agree. We are all speaking out. One of the hard things -
Klein: The reason why people have to do that is because then both parties are going to hear from their constituents that they don't want it.
Amato: I agree. When we get into the economic world, it is difficult. If economists had all the answers then nobody would ever lose money in the stock market. If it was that easy, everybody would go "OK, here's $1000 to my broker and in 10 or 12 months I'll have $100,000." It's all unpredictable.
Klein: I do think that Americans grasp what's going on and that is that they're being robbed and we got into this mess through the tyranny of complexity and the way in which economists and financial experts use complexity to shield themselves from regulation, democracy and any accountability. So people should trust their gut on this.
Amato: Right and they are. They really are. People are just looking at this and saying "Whoa, hold on a second." They have frightened people enough for people to say that we probably need to do something. But let's face it: Is the stock market at 6000 today? Did they lose 1200 points today? Did they lose 1200 points yesterday? No they haven't.
Klein: John I think they did their best to scare the market. His speech last night was completely irresponsible. He's lucky the market didn't dive. And John McCain announcing he's suspending his campaign in the name of America? That's ridiculous. He's sending completely alarmist messages to the market and he knows it.
Amato: Again, it's like our economy, a lot of it is based on perception, all these numbers. It's like this confidence factor, and that's why you never hear a president talk the way you heard President Bush talked the other night. You never hear that doom and gloom, especially on economic issues. You can be honest without making it sound like they're going to explode a nuke over Cleveland.
Klein: [laughing]
Amato: Listen, I don't want to keep you any longer.
Klein: That was a good note to end on.
Amato: I want to thank again Naomi Klein for joining Crooks and Liars. Our readers love you; we love you, and let's talk again real soon.
Klein: Absolutely. Thanks John.
Make sure you read: Demolition accomplished
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best take on the bush years to date. fantastic.
Part II
07:49 Naomi Klein:
"Both parties are going to hear from their Constituents"
Really, pray tell, are they going to vote for Nader, who would increase funding for the DOJ and throw the Wall Street crooks in jail?
I hope so, because I will, but I am not holding my breath.
When the Democrats cave as they always do, the Constituents will do what?
This is the no science(creationism) gang. the no reality gang( they will greet us as liberaters, heck, they have weapons of mass destruction!)
The fundamentals of the economy are strong!
Why would you expect them to get the math right?
There are two things that drive markets, GREED AND FEAR.
Yeah, but I have a bigger crush on Naomi than John does:P
The majority of the people do not want this bail out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcZSh1diQRQ
Of course, the GOP strategy, Promise the sun, the moon and the stars, low taxes and winning wars! Deliver absolutely nothing but hardship and heartache (I'm thinking families who lost sons and daughters in the war) and then blame the other party! Tell me this isn't what's been happening?
What's worse, this whole scenario that's been played out will never reach the vast majority of the American people. They won't read about or hear about it or understand it because its not discussed in the media they expose themselves to. And the media where they should cover it, that this majority might watch, lies about it (that's right FAUX News, I'm calling you liars. Omission of the truth is still a lie.) If the GOP were outlawed tomorrow, I would be the happiest person alive.
Canada has (at least) incredible Naomis: Klein and Wolf. For the merest smile from either, I would crawl across broken glass to sniff the pencil shavings in their sharpeners, scrape the stubble from their razors and smoke it, and expire, sated...
Most middle class Americans see this bail out as the last legal raiding of the treasury by the richest of Americans.
They must be laughing all the way to the bank.
2 trillion was stolen from pentagon's budget sept 10, 2001 acording to Rumsfield and there never was an investigation, Point 2 Sept 11, 2001 missile that hit pentagon killed all people that worked for the GAO, pretty clear message. PENTAGON MIC WE WERE WARNED BY EISENHOWER!
If the bailout does not go through all credit will dry up and America will fall into a depression. There will be massive unemployment and most of the population will face very difficult times.
If the bailout goes through the government of the US will collapse under the weight of the added debt. There will be few government programs or spending, except, of course for the military. There will be massive unemployment and most of the population will face very difficult times.
In any case, we're screwed.
Thanks for including the transcription, because frankly, the audio quality is harsh. Those odd-numbered harmonic distortions grate on my ears to such a degree that I had to turn it off after only 10 seconds.
I'm surprised someone in the recording industry would knowingly inflict such an ugly sound image on anyone. Message good, medium bad. Bur again, thanks for the transcription.
Naomi Klein: The priority is in getting to the root of this problem.
Let's do it.
woody, tokin librul @ 8:
Touche, bro!
I loved Naomi Klein's "No Logo," but when "Shock Doctrine" came out I thought it may be an excellent book but it was ill-timed. I thought there were a lot of areas that she could have applied her talent to that would have had greater impact.
That's the last time I EVER second guess Naomi Klein. The Washington reaction to the Wall Street mess couldn't be a better example of the risks of "disaster capitalism." Thank heaven for Klein and her uncanny prescience.
John McCain - NOPE
BigIslandDave @ 14:
You two can grovel all you like- I'm playin' it cool.
The Bush Administration and their international corporations are trying to get the American people and the American government into a position of debt bondage. That way the international corporations will own the United States. As Abraham Lincoln said so clearly...
"The government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of government, but it is the government’s greatest creative opportunity. The financing of all public enterprise, and the conduct of the treasury will become matters of practical administration. Money will cease to be master and will then become servant of humanity." ~ Abraham Lincoln
As it currently stands a privately owned corporations - The Federal Reserve - issues our currency and charges us interest for this service. We could do away with that and go to a system the system that Abraham Lincoln talks about where our own Government deals with these matters. Fuck the Federal Reserve and its private shareholders. Let them do their own business and we'll do the business of the American people and the currency needs of our Country.
Okay - Here's my idea. Since all of this to-do is about big numbers written on pieces of paper - 'cause money (dollars) don't really "exist" they just "represent"
work or product or worth.
So, let's get a huge supply of White-Out (that would be an economic boon to the company that makes it) and then white out all of the nasty numbers we don't like on balance sheets, bank statements and government records. Then we will have a
"blank slate" and we can start up our economy all over again at ZERO!
Brilliant. NO????
Seriously, what #11 says above is the real deal. They've pretty much set it up so that we, the middle-class citizens of the USA, are about to get royally screwed. Then we'll be seeing the Darth Vader guys out patrolling the streets.
WEENIE ALERT! The bill just passed and the Democrats wet on themselves again.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26915459/
Drilling is in, fricken weenies!
This is what happens when you elect a drunken frat boy to be president.
moniker @ 20:
He was never elected.
Welcome to Groundhog's Day in Hell:
Our "government" borrows money from China, gives it to the credit industry who loans it back to us (at a price) so we can buy crap from china so they can loan it to our "government" who bails out the credit industry...Aggghhhhhhhh.
The credit based, borrow and spend, drive down wages, destroy unionism, send jobs overseas economy that Greenspan, Reagan, Rubin and Clinton created will collapse and it might as well be now.
No bailout.
woody, tokin librul @ 8:
And as for their Barbaras - we have a certain je ne sais quois.
"All of the perplexities, confusion, and distress in America arises, not from the defects of the Constitution or Confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, so much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation." -- John Adams
Fiat Empire ~ an hour long look at some ideas about the intelligence of the Federal Reserve System and Monetary Policy.
Orangutan. @ 17:
This is correct, based on what I've read and learned over the years. Lincoln wanted to take back control of the currency because of the usery rates being charged by the European banks who were financing the Civil War. Unfortunately, they killed Abe rather than give up the profits. Same with JFK, he spoke out against the "secret groups behind the scenes" and issued an Executive Order to dissolve the Federal Reserve and take back control of the currency - guess what happened to him?
The the Bush crime family has been aiding and abetting the folks who run this international financial cabal (PtB) including the Fed, for decades. We need to go back to doing business according to the Constitution - only the Congress should have the authority to control our currency.
Rush to War @ 10:
And Eisenhower was the last decent Republican president.
Rachel Maddow makes the point I have wondered about ever since the $700 billion was mentioned. Why that much?
And why bail out Wall Street? Why the trickle down? Why not Naomi's idea and have the money trickle UP for a change?
Yet the GOP whines about welfare queens, whom they would let starve or go homeless, but would pinch our pockets to save Wall Street.
I believe Allan Meltzer had it right when he joined Paul Krugman and Eugene Ludwig on the PBS Newhour on Tuesday 9-23-08:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec08/bailouttalk_09-23.html
ALLAN MELTZER: "Yes. I don't want to join a debate about different ways of picking the public's pocket. I think, if they're going to do something -- and I don't think that we really need to do anything. I've heard these stories over and over for 40 years. You know, maybe there will be a crisis.
But despite all the talk, Main Street is not doing so badly. And the fact is that they've been predicting disaster since January. It hasn't happened.
And if they're going to do something, then what they ought to do is make loans, which the financial institutions have to repay with interest. And if you think -- that's an idea which the Chileans have used in a bigger crisis than this for them in 1982, and it worked for them.
People paid back the loans. They weren't allowed to pay dividends until they repaid the loans. They weren't allowed to take bonuses until they repaid the loans. I think that's the way -- if we're going to do this, then that's the way we should do it".
A guy who works in securities called into C-Span this morning and was basically saying what Naomi says about using a more bottom-up approach, helping people pay their mortgages rather than just buying all the bad debt.
I'm not sure which way is better, but it's good to see that there are some people on Wall Street who also favor this type of approach.
We sure have to do something, but I've not heard any dispassionate analysis of the various pros and cons of top-down and bottom-up.
"Isn’t economics a science? "
Actually economics is not a science.
Alice X - (Click Here for Nader Debate What If) - status quObama - change you can pretend in - @ 2:
So why don't all your Green party candidates in Congress do something to stop it?
Korry @ 30:
Good question, I will ask them.
But I suspect the two wings of the Corporate party will prevail!
The people want accountability and a Reckoning. Those Wall Street and Federal Reserve criminals need to go to jail. Charge them with criminal conspiracy to destroy the United States economy. Seize their assets and their bank accounts. Repeal the Federal Reserve Act or Nationalize the Federal Reserve. There is no way the international bankers (aka Federal Reserve) should be in charge of issuing our currency or setting it's value.
This is a purposefully engineered crises designed to steal America's wealth!
HISTORY LESSON:
"The refusal of king George III to allow the colonies to operate an honest money system, which freed the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators was probably the prime cause of the revolution." -- Benjamin Franklin, Founding Father.
Our country sought escape from this during the American Revolutionary war!
“All of the perplexities, confusion, and distress in America arises, not from the defects of the Constitution or Confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, so much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit circulation.” — John Adams
The Federal Reserve has the power to regulate the money supply and it's value, which gives it the power to bring entire economies to it's knees.
[Snip. Site Monitor]
We need to spread this information to the people that can actually do something about it!
[Ham, it's way too long. Also, as you note, you've posted it here before. From the C&L Commenting Policy: "C&L reserves the right to edit all e-mail and posted comments for content, clarity, and length.
Bandwidth is expensive. The comment space is reserved for comments that relate to the topic of the post . You may not reprint lengthy text from your own works or those of others, including news articles. You may link to them. Please remember this in the future. Thank you. Site Monitor]
Naomi Klein doesn't tell you this:
There's a difference between someone earning $1 million a year, say, from a medical practice, and someone earning $1 million a year from investments.
Tell me, which one do you want to screw from a tax standpoint?
I'll tell you: the system has screwed the Doc, not the investment earner.
That's tax policy 101.
Amitola @ 25:
Yeah. I appreciate you backing me up on this. I really do. I sincerely want get to the root of these problems like Naomi Klein talks about and I hope others do as well. The fact that Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, and JFK all faced assassination attempts and all took on the big bankers behind the Federal Reserve should say something to any investigative journalist worth his salt. Let's get out there and put some puzzle pieces together and connect the dots. It can be fun. And many people have already done a majority of the work. We just have to get over the hurdle of digesting it and then publicize it a bit, which is why I am glad whenever a popular blog like Crooks and Liars decides to take on this vitally important and relevant topic. Peace bro and Thank You.
Wow, my post got duplicated several times. I am so sorry!
I hit submit and nothing showed up, I hit refresh comments and nothing showed up, so I posted again. I really really am sorry!
Could an admin delete all but one of the duplicate comments? Please! I am very sorry!
Thank you.
Orangutan. @ 24:
Hey Orangutan: I welcome you (and everyone else) to visit my website: Silverrockstheworld.com There's actually a short video of moi on silver just under the Kitco chart and there's a book on silver you can download for FREE down the left margin called, "Silver Rocks".
We are big proponents of "The Money Masters" Part 1 and 2 (Google). I think you'd appreciate the website and the book.
And here's an interesting perspective on what's happening on Wall Street right now and in the halls of Congress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-F89sIDDVI
What I love about the Repug's way of dealing with a "financial crisis" is to write up 2.5 pages of demands to shift more wealth to their friends 6 months ago and then pull it out just before the election - actually they had to pull it out a little too early for their taste since they wanted this to be their "October Surprise." My husband and I run a small non-profit and I have to fill out 40-50 pages of forms to ask the federal government for a $6,000 grant (and we have to match that with our own funds, for crying out loud) and that's after 2 months of proving who we are, getting approved passwords, registering with three different agencies, and becoming a vendor of the US government. What a crock.
'Money, Banking and the Federal Reserve' (41 mins)
Orangutan. @ 17:
and then send rotten-child off to that same island prison napoleon died in. give him one book to read for the rest of his life, "the giving tree", and a little toy pyramid, about the size of the stonehenge prop in "spinal tap".
make sure the pyramid has a sharp, pointy top, too, so rotten child can try balancing on top, if he likes.
For instance, where the heck did this $700 billion figure come from in the first place? A Treasury Department spokeswoman told Forbes.com this week, quote, "It's not based on any particular data point, we just wanted to choose a really large number."
Yeah, right. By an amazing coincidence, Goldman Sachs gave Hank Paulson $700 million (one-thousandth as much) in salary and bonuses.
Ham @ 32:
How do I search for my comment from the original thread where I posted? That way I could link to it instead of reposting it? I love this site and I am sorry that I broke the rules. It won't happen again.
[Skip back to the threads from the 22nd (Monday?) You've got it on three separate threads then- you slipped through the cracks, Ham. It's just too long. But if you can find what you wrote, link away. Thanks. Site Monitor]
The Shock Doctrine was an eye opener for those who never really took the time to connect the dots as to how societies are molded and forged by their masters hand behind the shadows.
With reagard to the bailout that will come even against the roars of 95% of the people, the time is short. To the millions of us who phoned, faxed, e-mailed and even demonstrated on the streets of New York and Washington this week, we will now know
who votes for this financial atrocity and those who dared to stand with we the people. Washington now knows that we are not their brain dead minions, but to effect real change you have to go all the way.
When your congressman or Senator comes back to his district you do have options. for those who vote for the bailout, you can tar and feather them, you can turn your back on them after you give them a piece of your mind, you can withold any further campaign contributions and when that curtain closes behind you in the voting booth, you can remember who sold you and generations to come down the river.
This matter transcends political party and I can assure all as Ms. Klein has so expertly done, it will happen again and again unless we the people rise up and take back our government. In plain English, vot the bastards out of their cushy offices and they are truely the parasites of our society.
Send a clear message this election day, that we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it any more. Watch for the voting records of those who allow this to happen and vote them out regardless of party affilitation until we get people in office who will listen to the people and do the peopls work once again in Washington. If we fall to apathy now we are literally doomed. D.C. never thought we would even care, but millions of us did and Novermber 7th is D-Day to throw the bums out.
VietVet8666 @ 33:
Agreed. Which is why the capital gains tax must be eliminated. And capital gains taxed as regular income. I'm so sick of those morons who do not understand the zero sum game that is Wall Street telling me that "investments (in stocks) create jobs".
Orangutan. @ 17:
Well, you mentioned Lincoln:Address of the IWMA to Lincoln (drafted by Karl Marx)
and i found this hilarious:Abe the evil commie
I'm not sure what the solution is here. But I do know it shows we need regulations and regulatory agencies, and we need to limit how large a corporation or business gets. We don't want one super large business to threaten not only ours, but also our international trading partners.
I like that the Democrats have attached limits on CEO compensation packages and golden parachutes, and that when the market improves the taxpayers who paid to bail out the companies are treated as investers to share the profits.
However, like Naomi Klein said, we have this rotting infrastructure and money invested to repair and rebuild it would create jobs. Since our government is involved in the new corporations, could they make deals with the healthy corporations that used to do business with the rescued one to promote infrastructure repair?
Here's a link to what I wrote about the Wall Street and Federal Reserve Criminals that have been robbing us over and over throughout history.
Guess who is on the Federal Reserve board? Mogan/Stanley and Goldman/Sachs! I wonder who else is on this board of criminal banking cartels.
Here's a puzzle piece that I posted earlier in the day here on C&L;
Gee, I hope that you will not reject this as OT this time.
Where's the 2.3 TRILLION dollars that Rumsfeld announced as MISSING from the books at the PENTAGON?
We could certainly use that 2.3 TRILLION dollars that is missing from the PENTAGON books right about now!
You know, the 2.3 TRILLION dollars that Rumsfeld stated was missing from the Pentagon books, on September 10, 2001
YES, the day before the 911 attacks, Rumsfeld admitted that 2.3 TRILLION dollars was GONE!
The very next day, Flight 77 (?) slams into the ACCOUNTING DEPARTMENTat the PENTAGON !?!
Talk (hush hush) about SHOCK DOCTRINE...
Only the REAL shock came the very next day on Sept 11, 2001!
I think we should revisit this catastrophe and find out what really happened.
The bailout will definitely be finished by tomorrow... otherwise the Federal Reserve will go bankrupt on Oct. 1; the new fiscal year.
I say let it go bankrupt, and let’s get our Constitution back.
Back to the Ghost Dance
What I haven't heard mentioned since about Tuesday is that the companies who are to receive this largess are under investigation by the FBI for fraud. No wonder Paulson needs the money NOW!
Andrew @ 41:
I think you mean November 4th.
Let's see...whom shall we vote for instead?
They'll do it again and again? They've been doing it for 30 years. And the last 12 of those, the worst of them controlled every branch of government.
So shall we not vote at all? So those who do vote will again choose the worst of them and we can live the worst case scenario the next 30 years, or more?
It tooks 10 years of civil disobedience to stop the Vietnam war.
I suggest you churn out those placards.
I truly liked that interview because it gave me further food for thought about how to think about this financial crisis. I think the main issue here is that we are all lost if they vote on the bailout. They've used numerous tactics to continue pushing this extortion upon the American people.
In reality, we should be having our own tea party. We should be revolting against these people who presume they know best what to do with tax-payers' money. They are trying to take what they can get while they send the rest of us into financial jeopardy.
It is already too hard to find a job, a house (and even an apartment in some cities), insurance and some semblance of a life during the Bush years. But this is indeed the last insult.
And frankly, there are some of us who are tired of being slapped in the face.
ysbaddaden @ 44:
"Conservatives" invariably love to angrily rail against and promise to be tough on "crime." Except where it comes to white collar crime -- and that's what much of this financial crisis stems from. Just call it what it is.
Why don't we just "deregulate" society in general, let "the market works it wonders" to effectively regulate street crime? Well, it's a blinding glimpse of what should be the obvious that the upshot of that is tribal warlordism, private militias, etc.
Absent a legitimately constituted, comprehensive, and effective law enforcement system, you get criminality, period. Of both the street and executive suite types. Why is that so fucking difficult to understand?
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 49:
Another American revolution. Great idea.
The problem is, the ones with the muskets don't like your politics, either.
Abraham Jackemoff @ 47:
and can you believe these vampires have the audacity to attempt this heist of the blood bank on a sunday?
Ms. Klein is right on the money (if you'll pardon the expression). This woman needs more air time. Immediately. Across the TV spectrum. What I'd give to see her on a panel with Nouriel Roubini. Let the two of them drill the principals in this disaster. Paulson, Bernanke, Pelosi, Frank, etal would fold in 10 minutes. Now THAT would be some "must see TV"...
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/590-FLASH-Fed-Speaking-Out-B...
Bernanke is a liar and so is Paulson.
45 Ham
If I remember aright Morgan/Stanley were involved in the attempted putsch of 1933 to effectively overthrow FDR and install Gen. Smedley Butler, who turn the plans into the government. Birdseye, General Motors, Standard Oil, and even Prescott Bush were involved in these plans.
Korry @ 51:
Okay, then. What do you suggest?
Good interview. Not to state the obvious, but I think it's important to give people like Naomi Klein the platform from which she can speak her mind. John Amato, thanks for taking the time!
This shock crap wouldn't have worked in a more enlightened and civilized time, 30 or 40 years ago. The dumbing down of America has succeeded to the point people don't even question this obvious rip off and subjecting of them further to the level of peasants by elites of both political parties in Washington. These are sad times as these vultures swoop down for their scraps from the sheeple.
wilderness wino @ 46:
You're right on the money and here's the mainstream link to the 2.3 Trillion bullcrap that too few want to talk about...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml
Orangutan. Says @59
Thanks a million, or make that $700,000,000,000.00... for that link!
Korry @ 51:
Enough people agree that the voting system is rigged. The mainstream media is corporate owned and run for corporate and military interests. Enough people agree that the Bill of Rights is worth fighting for. That the Constitution is the basis of our society. Enough people don't like being taken advantage of by international banking industries. Enough people love America and don't like being lied to when it comes to sending our troops overseas. It has nothing to do with one's politics. It has to do with defending your country. This left/right paradigm is outdated. It's as bush says the have's and the have not's. An up and down structure not a left and right. You are right Little Ceci and many people with muskets and guns agree with the things you are fighting for. Don't fall for those who want to divide you into separate opposing left and right factions. Peace.
I can't remember exactly where I read the article about when H.Paulson left Goldman Sach's to become Treasurey Secretary, but he was given a 700 mil parting package.
That figure matches what he is asking for now but with more zeroes. Also, a well known millionaire has injected 5 mil or so in Goldman Sach's.
Maybe those are two things a researcher can work with??????????
Rep. Baldwin (D-WI) Introduces Bill to Undo and Prosecute Bush-Cheney Crimes
http://impeachforpeace.org/impeach_bush_blog/?p=5757
Korry,
Personally, I believe the pen is mightier than the sword. That is to say, write, blog, publish and get the word out there. An informed public will make the right decisions in the long run.
In the grand scheme of things - seeing how the Internet has changed the way a good portion of people get their news - the next step is to make the internet accessible to those who don't have it and build a system where people from different cultures, using different languages can have their words translated automatically to and from English. That way, we, humans, will be able to better connect with each other and language will no longer be an obstacle.
Coincidentally, last night, Obama mentioned that he wants to get broadband lines to rural areas in the U.S..
That's a good start.
Orangutan. @ 61:
Thank you for your words. Here's my take: something has to wake the American people up. You have to admit that the entire aura of the United States of America has been one of psychological depression. It's as if nothing will stir the passions of this population.
I think the calls to our Congresspeople are fine because it caused them to stop and think about what they are doing.
Everyday people are getting screwed by this deal six ways to Sunday. And you've got to be kidding me if the majority (the ones who are concerned with what's on Dancing With the Stars and going to bend down and let it happen.
It is so frustrating to see an emotionless and passionless nation in which rolls over and plays dead pretty much like DLC does when in conjunction with the Republicans. Naomi Klein is right. Bipartisanship is not the way to go in trying to get that bill passed. There needs to be people who are looking out for everyday folks instead of lining the pockets of these CEO's that only do two weeks work for twenty million dollars.
That's why there has to be something that will wake up people in this country. We can't just sit and take it anymore.
51st @ 64:
Okay. And that will change how Congress votes on this bailout tomorrow night HOW?
Orangutan. @ 61:
Okay. So where's the revolution?
seekthetruth @ 58:
Bullshit! 30 years ago was when it started. Reagan was installed in the White House by a landslide! Twice!
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 56:
I'm not the one calling for revolution. You want a revolution? What do YOU suggest?
Korry @ 69:
Are you that bereft of ideas of your own that you go about hassling people who are simply disgusted with the system?
It's very difficult to fathom why Barney Franks would turn against the people on Main Street. Yet he is. Why? Is it because he is gay and must play their game? No, I don't think so. That all came out years ago.
Well, at least Bernie Sanders hasn't jumped on board this bailout plan. Yet.
Forget the blather about there being only one party. I want to know why people who have always been on our side are now killing us.
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 70:
WTF? LMAO
That's really funny. It's apparent that right wingers are not the only ones adept at twisted rhetoric.
I'd just like to see people who are perpetualing railing about what needs to be done, actually do something.
Korry @ 72:
Will you just shut the fuck up already? I am here to read and learn. Take your hissy fit and shove it.
Jo @ 73:
Jo @ 73:
Oops....that should have looked like this:
No, I don't think so.
Dear Site Monitors and Community,
My humblest apologies for comment #43, the second links was the result of careless googling & what i first saw was so absurd i could not belief it to be anything but a joke, I was wrong, it was disgusting and I am sorry if you scrolled down far enough to be as offended as I was.
A day or two ago I read an article by Newt Gingrich (you must keep checking on evil) in which he starts out railing against the bailout. And then it comes, his solution is to lower the capital gains tax to zero. Lo and behold one of the newest bailout compromise included a zero capital gains tax. A good example of the shock doctrine that has been their wet dreams for years.
I am getting 0.75% on a money market account at a local bank and then I have to pay 30% tax rate on those meager earnings (federal and state) and some clown hedge fund CEO was whining on C-Span if his income was treated as income instead of capital gains his tax rate would go from 15% to 36%. One hedge fund CEO made over $1,000,000,000 and if this bailout passes he will pay no taxes?
These guys better be careful, they could end up like that CEO over in India.
"Of the more than 1,000 Americans surveyed in a national CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll, 62% said they think in general the government should step in to try to address the problems facing struggling financial institutions. The margin of error was plus or minus 3 percentage points.
But the poll, conducted Sept. 19-21, showed that Americans think the cost of the $700 billion plan being debated in Congress is too high."
So if you were in Congress what would you do?
The reality is that the largest percentage of Americans think SOMETHING should be done, by the government.
The legislation that they're actually going to vote on does not give Wall Street a $700 bill blank check, with no oversight.
It will probably initially appropriate $150 bil, with oversight, and possibly with some relief for actual mortgage holders.
They're going to do SOMETHING, but not give Bush and Paulson everything they asked for.
They don't know what will happen with the economy if they do this. They don't know what's going to happen with the economy if they don't.
AND NEITHER DO YOU.
They do know there's no upside to this. They're not having fun.
Mostly I'm just glad I'm not in their shoes.
PNAC @ 77:
That sucks. I was really hoping the elimination of the capital gains tax wouldn't make it through.
Jo @ 73:
Thank you, Jo. I appreciate it very much. :)
In my case, I will take a step back now and read what others have to say on this thread before I answer again.
51st @ 64:
http://www.SpeedMatters.org
The main point I was trying to make is shock doctrine works on a dumbed down population, some people are awake and opposing this but Bush's fear tactics unfortunately still work on the morons even in our Congress.
Korry @ 78:
Most Americans say "do something cuz they don't understand what the whole thing is about. When Barney Frank and Dodd and Shumer go on CNN and say something needs to be done , their constituents think they're getting the straight story. Little do the know but that the loyal opposition is only loyal to their wall street banking donors...not to the voters.
Its pretty simple. We are screwed.
Korry@78
What do you mean by "they are not having any fun"?
Do you mean that they were "grounded", and had to stay home and figure out how to extort $700,000,000,000.00 US from the tax payers of this country, instead of being allowed to go race there 100' yachts on Chesapeake Bay?
My heart bleeds for them.
If your in Congress what do you do?
You are supposed to DEFEND the U S Constitution from enemies Foreign or Domestic, just as you swore to do.
Yes something should be done...
How about we, as a Nation, decide to fund this from the bottom up for once.
We buy all of the bad mortgage paper for an estimated maximum of $100,000.000.00, and rent back the housing units to the occupants at market value, as they do in Greeat Britan.
We don't need to bail out the jerks who leveraged 60:1 through stock derivatives, and default insurance.
We should just let that portion of the market correct itself (tank), as we have been preached to for years.
Back to the Ghost Dance
Estimated 100,000,000,000.00 that is.
Wow, there's so many 0's in a hundred billion that I missed a few.
Jo @ 71:
Follow the money. ...it leads to "The globalists" ..."the international bankers", Rothchilds, Rockefellers, and European royalty...ect..ect.
Listen to John Fitzgerald Kennedy warn the American people about this "secret society"...and keep in mind that the men who had him killed...are still in power.
I will quote him but listen to the whole radio adress!!!
"It is a system that has conscripted vast human and material resorces, into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine, that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence,economic, scientific, and political operations..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZk8ronces
Barney Frank and most politicians are one of four things, ...(paid)(blackmailed)(born into) or (unwittingly serving) those that shepherd his/their careers along...(I suspect Barney Frank likes very young boys, or was "born into it" ...Barney is too intelligent to be "unwitting"
It has all run amuck. The bald headed financial monkey on CNN has declared to the American People that this bail out is all wrong but, if we don`t agree to something soon our paychecks may bounce next week. Yeah, play the fear factor right into the hands of the Neocon Cabal and Wall St. Mafia. Oh yeah, it will all trickle down someday. The American People know they have been fucked again and know the financial debauchery isn`t over yet, at least not until the Social Security is gone with everything else. A lot of people still do not accept the fact that their government would screw them over so badly. Illegal war, trashed constitution, wiretapping, and a group in the Democratic leadership that keeps caving and caving. They caved to offshore drilling as we speak.
I think its about time to invest in some audio recording equipment to record those phone calls....what were you using there, acetate?
Earmark for John Amato;
$50,000.00 for new audio recording equipment...
I'll get Palin right on it , since she's not doing anything (or anybody except Brad Hanson) right now!
Am I the only one who finds Naomi Klein a dreamboat? She's like an older, more attractive version of Sophia Coppola.
And more importantly (perhaps)...
She has a Beautiful mind!
Great interview - Naomi sums it up perfectly about the single idea presented by the Bush administration, under urgent demands, to turn America into a trashcan.
But why do we have a picture of John Amato in the closet? Are you inside or looking into the closet at us?
This was excellent, thank you John and Naomi... great. Everyone should hear this - it should be piped into every household in the US and beyond. You know, there's nothing like great and observing minds saying what needs to be said.
This interview needs to get viral !
we are totally fucked!
My wife asked the question: Could the 700 number (as in 700 Billion) have come from fans of Pat Robertson's 700 Club?
The government can't just make up jobs to give to people, "here, watch this street, make sure it does not fall apart" Thats wastefull. Furthermore, Libs don't want a bail out of wall street, neither do I but they want a bail out of poor people. Health care, housing, welfare, why let them both pay for there CHOICES!
chris @ 97:
Here is evidence that chris just doesn't get it. And never will. You've been gone for quite some time chris. And yet, you've learned nothing.
PNAC @ 78:
You mean this guy?
So what can we do about it?
Naomi Klien: The Sexiest Woman Alive.
Love Klein's book. Have yet to hear an alternative to this plan from her.
Dont just sit here and tell us how much this thing sucks, because we all know it. We know this whole thing blows. But what's the alternative? Pull a Hoover and let the chips fall? Perhaps this has been answered in the comments; I couldn't find it in the transcript, although I did skim certain parts.
What is the alternative. What's better.
"the next shock doctrine"
Er.... no.
That would be if he got her to ID the terrible manufactured shock that the world's media wasn't already talking about. It's not exactly hard to claim that everything validates your thesis in hindsight when there are lots of little facts to cherrypick from. Which is why she doesn't.
I am beginning to wonder if this bailout is necessary for anyone other than the Wall Street elite. While I understand that the financial crisis is real, I question if the taxpayers really need to rescue these gilded financial firms (Goldman, Citi, B of A, etc.) from their own greed and mismanagement. Maybe its time to call Wall Street and Washington's bluff and see if we need these giants as much as they tell us we do.
The banks are all in real estate and speculating because there is no manufacturing going on to profit from. Then there are the foreign banks that have gotten in the bread line. Foreign banks will receive tax payers money while tax payers are put out of work and foreclosed on their homes?
There are many questions we the people should have the answers to. One of the forthright questions should be, when did the Bush Adm know about this, Paulson too? When did Fannie, Freddie, Bear Sterns, AIG, Lemmen Bros, and on and on Know their investment risks were going south let alone already across the southern border. This is important to the golden parachutes credibility. If they didn't know then they were negligent to their company. If they knew, what did they do? Did they begin lobbying Washington for the bail out with what money they had left? I
I mean for a rats ass, Rick Davis of the infamous straight talk express campaign receiving $30 grand a month (up to aug '08) from fannie and freedie mac ? ! They didn't seem to bother cutting back lobbying but I am sure they began cutting jobs below the executives. The jobs that do the work.
Alice X - (Click Here for Nader Debate What If) - status quObama - change you can pretend in - @ 2:
Oh look... it's tinfoil on your head and controlled demolition time.
WTF do you ridiculous looking, credibility shedding retards think that "they" get to plan when it comes to financial clearing systems on Wall Street ? The only thing you know is that none of "they" knew WTF was occurring until after it did and still can't even describe it coherently. Yet somehow they planned it did they ?
Tell us why controlled demolitions weren't involved then. I mean if you're going to 98 on the BS conspiracy theory scale, why not take it to 100. Perhaps Cool Hand Luke was assassinated to cover it up you fkn pathetic mentally unbalanced wankers.
I remember when Bush was first elected and my boss was on his tippy toes with happiness. I told him Bush was going to ruin the Republican Party. I was right. What else has he done? Help this country elect its first black president.
And what else? The Bush administration is going to bring socialism to the US because after this move the American people will accept what is good for them instead of what they are told is good for them. The American People will start becoming educated and demand what is best for all Americans. My proof? Talk to depression era generation. They are smart people. They know bullshit when they see it. They are out there saying give us National Health Care. I know. I work at the front desk of a clinic.
It seems Naomi Klein has a little explaining to do to all those here who "love her book"...
http://www.reason.com/news/show/128903.html
I wonder if she'll have the integrity to address these issues, or whether she'll take the Michelle Malkin route and simply ignore those critics of her book and the revelations which completely undercut her central premise and exposes her as an intellectual fraud. Actually, I don't wonder this, I'll register no surprise to discover it is the latter.
You don't lie this big and THEN discover an interest in honest debate.
Barack Obama was behind the war in Iraq.
This too is something you can claim if chronological events are ignored and clear opposition to a policy is misrepresented and spun into support of it.
It is interesting to note that despite the daily avalance of lies I read in the right-wing blogosphere, I've not yet seen anyone propose a lie that big. A lie on the same level of dishonesty as Naomi Klein has authored in her Shock Doctrine thesis.
Actually, considering Obama *hasn't* spent 20 years writing about how invading Iraq would be a bad idea, claiming he was responsible for the Iraq invasion isn't an example on par with Klein's lie.
This is course would be an issue if there were an actual "reality based community" who cared about the difference between lies and the truth rather than just a bunch of partisan wingnuts pretending they did.
gregory zurbay @ 106:
Yes, some of us remember, obviously not you. Three or four OTHER candidates BESIDES Nader got more vootes in Florida whan the Bush-Gore difference. Stop blaming Nader for the shortcomings of your candidate.
Kilo...
2.2lbs.
That's about how much you must have smoked and (or) snorted to become such a fool!
Swooping in at the end of blogs to have the final say is my job...
So get lost,
I mean literally,,,
not lost in (and just taking up) space, as you are now.
Back to the Ghost Dance
Kilo
Is English your native language?
Because you DO seem to have an problem articulating in this language.
Feel free to have a return volley at me...
Just as soon as you are done looking up the definition of articulate in the Sarah Palin Dictionary/Thesaurus for the verbally challenged.
Back to the Ghost Dance
Hey Kilo (of crap in my pants),
I followed your link to "Defaming Milton Friedman; Naomi Klein"s disastrous yet popular polemic against the great free market economist"...
Milton Friedman's free market economy ?
You mean the free market economy that must be rescued by a socialist bailout every so often?
You are an absolute idiot...
or a ..?
Never mind...
YOU ARE an ABSOLUTE IDIOT
Back to the Ghost Dance
Leaving the current admin in charge of this fiasco is like having Bin-Laden in charge of homeland security.
Regugs stole the last 2 elections with the help of a Supreme Court that is just as incompetent as the present admin, Nader is not a spoiler. Progressives need to stop devouring their own, Repugs love it when we do that.
xvet
Then I guess you saw exactly what I said you would and came back here to pretend you weren't bright enough to understand it, or to dazzle us with the power of ignorance, just like I told you that you would.
Like I said... bang up job pretending to care about things like truth and reality.
Kilo,
thanks for that article critiquing Naomi Klein's book, The Shock Doctrine. There is some truth to some of the points made but I"m afraid it is not as devastating of a critique as you are smugly assuming it is.
You yourself haven't offered any criticism except for pointing to that article as if it's the end and be all of everything. Just because Reason.com, which is well known to have right-wing libertarian ideological leanings, makes a case against Naomi Klein's thesis does not mean their arguments are foolproof and cannot be rebutted.
Take for example these passages from that article:
...
Bizarrely, Klein points to the U.S. after 9/11 as a major illustration of her thesis. She claims the terrorist attacks gave the Bush administration an opportunity to implement Friedman's ideas by benefiting friends in the defense and security industries with new contracts and unprecedented sums of money. Klein never clearly explains how this could possibly be Friedmanite. In the real world, Friedman "had always emphasized waste in defense spending and the danger to political freedom posed by militarism," in the words of his biographer Lanny Ebenstein. Somehow, Klein has confused Friedman's limited-government liberalism with corporatism.
As Klein sees it, in Bush's America "you have corporatism: big business and big government combining their formidable power to regulate and control the citizenry." This sounds like a healthy libertarian critique of the administration-something Friedman himself might say. But Klein thinks that Bush-style corporatism is the "pinnacle of the counterrevolution launched by Friedman" and that the team that implemented it is "Friedmanite to the core."
So even when the U.S. government breaks all the rules in Milton Friedman's book, Klein blames Friedman. At one point she writes about the lack of openness in the Iraqi economy: "All the...U.S. corporationsthat were in Iraq to take advantage of the reconstruction were part of a vast protectionist racket whereby the U.S. government had created their markets with war, barred their competitors from even entering the race, then paid them to do the work, while guaranteeing them a profit to boot-all at taxpayer expense." This would be an excellent Friedmanite critique of how governments enrich their friends at the expense of competitors and taxpayers-if it weren't for the conclusion to the paragraph: "The Chicago School crusade...had finally reached its zenith in this corporate New Deal."
This kind of defense is deeply problemetic, and is one that reminds me of those deluded communists who continue to insist how their ideology in theory is perfect.. it just needs the right application for it to succeed. In other words, their argument is "communism cannot fail, it can only be failed." Similarly, the defense being offered by Reason.com and their various conservative/libertarian ideological brethren, such as yourself, is that somehow "conservatism/libertarianism cannot fail, it can only be failed."
The problem is the monstrosity that is American conservatism and the Republican party today is the inevitable result of that economic libertarian conservatism. What we see today in America is not some corrupted version of The Holy Grail of "True Conservatism" or "True application of Friedman's Libertarian Ideology" but rather the pinnacle of the conservative and economic libertarian movement that Friedman began. So when all the libertarian foot-solders like Reason.com refuse to take responsibility for the application of their ideology in the real world and sadly lament if "this" isn't really what Milton Friedman's theories are about, they should understand that actually, yes, "this" is exactly the end result of their libertarian ideology as applied in the real world.
I'm sorry but until very recently, after the disasters of their ideology started to pile up one after another, the American conservate movement and the Republican party had a complete stranglehold today not only in the political arena, but also in the ideological arena, where they have convinced a great many of the white, middle-class, suburban Americans of the merits of their economic libertarian ideology, i.e., government is the problem, not the solution, free markets function perfectly, regulation of industry is bad, etc. So the last 30 years have been a perfect test-case for the real-world of their theories, and guess what, the results aren't pretty. When you have an ideology such as Friedman's libertarianism that relentlessly demonizes government, and thus weakens government and its ability to function as a democratic counterweight of checks and balances against other power-centers in a society, mainly corporations and big-business, you have precisely the end results that Naomi Klein dissects in ther book.
The economic libertarianism/anti-government/free-market fundamentalism ideology that Friedman is primarily responsible for and that Reason.com is so enamored by is one that is just that: a theory. Like all theories, it sounds wonderful and utopian on paper but once it is applied in the real world, with its complications, uneven distributions of power, and the inevitable flaws in human nature of self-interest, corruption, greed, and lack of discipline, the results are exactly what Naomi Klein describes, i.e., deep, massive corruption of the political system by power-centers like corporations that hijack state-power for their own goals, and corporatism, where elites and big business are able to loot the public treasury
There is NO SUCH THING as the perfect application of Milton Friedman's theories. I'm sorry but if you can't see that the current massive failures and corruption in the American financial and political system are the culmination of the ideas of Milton Friedman and his brand of libertarian/free-market fundamentalism ideology put in practice in the real world, you are the one who is deeply delusional. Please drop your condescending attitude and try and understand that people might actually have a deeper and more sophisticated understanding of economics, which is not the mechanical, deterministic, exact science that Reason.com and their fellow libertarians assume it is but rather when applied in the real world, is influenced by things such as power, human nature, unpredictability, and corruption.
I am glad the bailout is opposed by so many Americans. There is hope yet. People are no longer fooled by Bush and his goones. For me as a European it's great to see so many Americans are waking up and standing against the way the have
been cheated the last 20 years.
kilo,
Here's a link to an excellent article by Thomas Frank that elaborates on some of the points I tried to make.
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