The totally unpredictable outcome of our Grand Libyan Adventure
President Barack Obama has signed a secret order authorizing covert U.S. government support for rebel forces seeking to oust Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, government officials told Reuters on Wednesday.
Obama signed the order, known as a presidential "finding", within the last two or three weeks, according to four U.S. government sources familiar with the matter.
Such findings are a principal form of presidential directive used to authorize secret operations by the Central Intelligence Agency. The CIA and the White House declined immediate comment.
News that Obama had given the authorization surfaced as the President and other U.S. and allied officials spoke openly about the possibility of sending arms supplies to Gaddafi's opponents, who are fighting better-equipped government forces.
Here's how I predict this will play out:
- We spend a crap-load of money maintaining air strikes and funneling all kinds of weapons to the Libyan rebels. They eventually topple Gaddafi. A great day for freedom!
- John McCain will send out a Tweet telling us he's having dinner with the very interesting rebels at their ranch. The good news: If we give them more arms, they'll embrace freedom!
- It then turns out that the Libyan rebels we armed have ties to terrorist organizations.
- Libya becomes a safe haven where al-Qaeda can plan attacks on the United States.
- We get hit with another terrorist attack and then go re-invade Libya.
- No one in the media will bother to point out that we put these guys in power in the first place. Instead, the Republican or Democrat who's heading the State Department at the time will tell us that "nobody could have predicted" Libya would become a safe haven for terrorism.
- And finally, we'll make the war deficit-neutral by laying off a bunch of teachers.
This sort of thing seems to happen quite frequently. So frequently, in fact, that even some of the dim bulbs in Congress are starting to take notice:
Members of Congress have expressed anxiety about U.S. government activates in Libya. Some have recalled that weapons provided by the U.S. and Saudis to mujahedeen fighting Soviet occupation forces in Afghanistan in the 1980s later ended up in the hands of anti-American militants.
There are fears that the same thing could happen in Libya unless the U.S. is sure who it is dealing with. The chairman of the House intelligence committee, Rep. Mike Rogers, said on Wednesday he opposed supplying arms to the Libyan rebels fighting Gaddafi "at this time."
"We need to understand more about the opposition before I would support passing out guns and advanced weapons to them," Rogers said in a statement.
If the past is any guide, Rogers will soon forget all about this and give Obama and the CIA a blank check to do whatever they want.
We aren't a very smart country. It's amazing we've survived as long as we have.
UPDATE: Oh this just gets better and better:
The new leader of Libya's opposition military spent the past two decades in suburban Virginia but felt compelled — even in his late-60s — to return to the battlefield in his homeland, according to people who know him.
Khalifa Hifter was once a top military officer for Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, but after a disastrous military adventure in Chad in the late 1980s, Hifter switched to the anti-Gadhafi opposition. In the early 1990s, he moved to suburban Virginia, where he established a life but maintained ties to anti-Gadhafi groups.
The good news is that "Hifter" sounds an awful lot like "Hitler." It shouldn't be too hard to make him out to be the greatest most evilest ever threat to world peace when we re-invade Libya ten years from now.
The war profiteers have all died and gone to heaven!
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
about the new military leader of Libyan rebels that is only, what, five days old?
First broke in C&L with a comment by Abbywood four days ago.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
Is that carrot top in that picture?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
his buff, botoxed body, paying homage to our favorite messikin-chasing, tank-commanding, Marked for Death & Hard to Kill Arizona deppity.
Segal is in honor of recently making these pages. The C-Topper is continuing homage to pop naming her chew toy after me.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
That is Abbybwood, btw…
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
if I had known any better. Got carpal tonnage years ago from shifting my Corvair.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
...Alice will actually understand the point you've been making with your oft-repeated Corvair reference.
Until that day, she'll shew you away like a gnat.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
You missed the exchange many lunar orbits ago. She and I share a connection
to the back seat of Mr. Nader's unsafe contraption. Note I said "connection to" not "in."
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
I recall her reacting many times as if she didn't realize you were pointing out the fallacy upon which Nader's public life was built.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
is excused for harboring the illusion Mr. Nader once had something valid to offer.
Anyone who ever drove one with over 90 HP hates his ass to this day.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
So I understand what this is about.
A capable citizen takes on the largest corporation in the world (at that time, but oh how times have changed) and wins his battle.
So now you want to hang onto the memory of your toys and side with the corporation.
I have your number.
It is written on a napkin.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
This is like re-reading 1984 by George Orwell on a daily basis. WTF.
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
leaves the MIC simply orgasmic
armed conflict, arming "rebels", invasion, re-invasion, fear-based-politics, money, money, money
"He came to me to make sure I was supporting his sound policies. Of course, since his sound policies are more like the policies people like me have been advocating for quite a while, I’m happy to support them. He’s a born-again neo-con.” -bill motherfucking kristol
Finally! The fools on the right have stopped calling status quObama a Socialist and are embracing the fact that he is one of them.
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/03/30/bill-kristo...
Cue the Kabuki....
Disaster Capitalism.
Shock Doctrine Politics.
False Flag Military Tactics.
General Smedley Butler had it right so many years ago!! War is a Racket.
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
There are plenty of cracks in the foundation. Keep your eye on the rats!
...you have access to the same Intel as the President and so quickly compare the guy to that sub-cockroach blood thirsty genocidal murdering stack of shit natural born loser previous President.
"Arming the rebels" ......just how Al-Qaeda got it's start.
Cue the Kabuki....
...you'd be here slamming him for that.
Just like with the Republicans, Obama can't win with you folks.
he is "sitting back" in yemen. and bahrain. and syria. and pakistan (well, that is different since we are the one's doing the slaughtering). not to mention colombia. and god knows where else.
ask yourself: why libya? why not the others?
in my eyes, this is yet another illegal war our imperial branch has screwed us with. and the future "winners" of this war aren't the "rebels" in libya.
What is the cost/benefit ratio in terms of lives? Trade 10 of lives to save 1000? Trade 10 to save 10? Trade 10 to save 1?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
"cost/benefit ratio in terms of lives?"
huh?
you would apply a no fly zone or air to ground attacks in Yemen and Bahrain and Syria? Libya is a unique opportunity. The forces are geographically separated, one side has heavy weapons and aircraft and it is possible to distinguish exactly who you are attacking from the air. The same could not be said of any other situation in the Middle East. Ghadaffi is physically isolated as well as politically isolated. I am convinced that the covert intelligence forces recently inserted into Libya are there to improve attack co-ordination as well as gather intelligence. Ground forces would absolutely be required to achieve anything in an urban insurrection.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The CIA & MI6 did it in 1953. Anytime I see CIA involvement, I see the world's largest terrorist organization at work.
"No one ever said these people were logically consistent."
- watchdog -
the middle east has other unique situations--such as the 5th naval fleet being stationed in bahrain, the use of saudi troops to help quell uprisings, and both the yemeni and bahraini "govts" currently doing the bidding of the US. well, maybe the second isn't too unique. but, still. a lot more pressure could be put on both governments, the problem is the same here as it is for other countries in the region: we (as in the US) have aligned ourselves with some pretty unsavory characters in the region for decades. despots, thugs, murderers, father rapists, etc. and, when it comes to yemen and bahrain, we have decided to use the same play book as we always have--prop up the dictator, and hope he doesn't skull fuck too many orphans for entertainment.
so, with those 2--yemen and bahrain--the situation has nothing to do with a no fly zone. it has to do more with the fact that we would rather look away, or distract, or make excuses for "friendly" dictators, as long as they do "our" bidding.
and as far as syria is concerned, that situation is obviously much different.
but, in all 3 cases, my point was not to take the position that, since we are in a libyan war, that it is only right that we intervene in the other countries. no. my point was that we shouldn't intervene in any of their countries, if at all possible. AND, if there is no other way around it, the congress needs to be involved--not another presidential war, not again. please not again.
i just find obama completely un-credible, especially on the topic of protecting civilians
Libya is about democracy versus dictatorship.
Bahrain is a Sunni-Shi'a thing. Sunni government, Shi'ite majority population. The protestors there have asked that the West not get involved.
Yemen is a complete clusterfuck. It's tribal stuff mixed with some of the pre-reunification communist-capitalist thing. Oh, and the Sunni-Shi'a thing there, too (52% Sunni, 46% Shi'ite). To borrow from one of the greatest films ever made, "Forget about it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, etc., right on. Those democracy drones are busy bees.
I don't care which side does it: they both suck.
far left loon >.<
...the Polish resistance in Nazi-occupied Poland.
I do kinda notice you, like Brad, playing the all-Mooslim-Ayrabs-is-turrists card. Isn't there a mosque you guys can keep from opening in the US of A?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
The one thing above all that a certain Polish pope did in his life that has my undying admiration was his work as the young Father Karol Wojtyla in the Polish Resistance --- my late grandfather's family that had survived the atrocities were, no doubt very, very grateful for their work.
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
Poland 1939 = Libya and 2011 America?????
Giant SNORE.
far left loon >.<
Funny part is the US announced that it will be up to others to arm them today.
And also stated that if the rebels endanger civilians, they too will be hit with airstrikes.
Yes, the US had officials say they're engaging in covert operations, but that doesn't mean they are doing any arming of rebels.
to hear Obama has intel. Now I'm sure everything will work out dandy. "Winning the future for LIbya" you gotta love it, just follow the bouncing ball.
of having intelligence agents on the ground to find out who these rebels are and what their intentions might be is a good idea.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Mighta been wise to do that before deciding to arm them. But we send guns first, ask questions later in America.
Intel has been on the ground for MONTHS...don't you remember the SAS guys that got arrested ???
Is it intelligent to imply at the same time we don't know who they are but we have just sent over our "guy" as commander?
Is asking what you would have us do something that could get me pegged as having the intelligence of my country?
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
said that covert agents were in place. Support does not necessarily mean arms and it does not necessarily mean that all rebel groups and organizations will receive such support. They could and in fact do seem to be getting some arms through Egypt and that does not mean these arms are coming from the US. There are lots of groups inside and outside of Libya with their own agendas. I agree and have previously commented that putting too many weapons in the wrong hands risks transferring a humanitarian crisis from Benghazi to Tripoli. I see no reason as yet to assume the either the US or NATO are committed to doing anything particularly stupid. Once Ghadaffi's heavy weapons are out of the picture this will degrade into a small arms conflict that ultimately Ghaddafi cannot win at which point some sort of political solution will be possible.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
^ This
How do we know that the US is arming the rebels again?
Or at least sending up trial balloons. From The NYT:
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...buy weapons like the drug cartels of Mexico do?
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
long enough to have the cash on hand required. Give them time.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
and chew the Qat.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
That might be a Qatastrophe...
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
"•John McCain will send out a Tweet telling us he's having dinner with the very interesting rebels at their ranch. The good news: If we give them more arms, they'll embrace freedom!
•It then turns out that the Libyan rebels we armed have ties to terrorist organizations."
I think you forgot the middle step which is.
The libyans democratically elect a government which does not necessarily look after our interests first.. WE dont like that so then we empose some sort of embargo/political preassure which ruins the economy of the country. Then radical elements come to power.
this is only what i was saying all along, along with a few other brave souls willing to be told how we didn't give a damn about freedom, and struggling people, and brown people, and oh, just about everyone; with the exception of our own little selves.
what a nation of narcissists, we must go protect the innocents! never mind that this is all in europes backyard, an ocean and some away from us............
the latest is that there are marines actually on the ground, special forces, but i can't tell you how i know this, very hush hush, need to know basis.............
...to the shores of Tripoli..
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Manchuria....maybe.
Cue the Kabuki....
Course your flag would proably just say "Don't tread>"
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
"Well, if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part to us, do they?"
George Carlin ~ http://quotationspage.com/quote/764.html
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
Get rid of this Brad Reed dude before David Neiwert comes on here and calls him a wingnut conspiracy theorist !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sarc)
the part where we blow-up all the infrastructure such as, schools, water treatment plants, etc., then get Haliburton to rebuild it all with at least one military mega base and an embassy then hand the bill to taxpayers but don't tax the corresponding corporations. Then we have to have those missing pallets of freshly printed funny money go missing and on and on. Isn't humanitarianism and democracy spreading great.
http://www.wcti12.com/news/27257042/detail.ht...
2,200 Marines Go To Libya, 'What Happened to No Boots on the Ground'?
Read more: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/publius-forum...
rumors and propaganda?
...now please explain what an MEU is, and what it might be doing off-shore. Rescue operations (downe air crews, ya know)? Evacuation of refugees?
Again, I'm reminded of last summer, the ZOMGs! about carrier groups headed to the Persian Gulf via Suez for what HAD TO BE THE ATTACK ON IRAN...But ended up being the cover force for the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
IWBINTS.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
IWBINTS?
I Will Be In the Shitter?
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
But that would not be specualtion.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
No doubt at some point this evening... then I will be the less crabby old hippy fart...
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
"It would be irresponsible not to speculate."
Some wingnut or anther (Eric, son of Eric or Goldberg or Hewitt...some wingnut asshole, anyway) used it to justify some wild-ass theory about Obama a couple of years ago. Someone over at the snarktastically brilliant Balloon Juice (John Cole or DougJ- Cole, I think) picked up on it at the time, and it's been a tag that they've used ever since. ricky and I both spend time over there when it gets too exasperating here.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I meant to ask you Andy, do you comment at AV Club? I was reading some of the comments for a couple of tv shows and started laughing so hard I literally had tears running down my face.
My kids were slightly alarmed.
ricky used to comment more at BJ than he does now, but occasionally he shows up and makes me laugh there, too.
And I comment at the AV Club, but not as much as I used to, because by the time I watch Community and 30 Rock, someone has made the points I would have made. Oh, and now that Lost is nothing but re-runs....Anyway, the last comment I made there was my 450th since I registered. It was on that Sarah Silverman post. I had to correct someone who absolutely mangled my favorite filthy joke. I won't re-tell it here, because I'd certainly offend someone (maybe even you), but here's my second favorite, written by Gerard Mulligan for Letterman back in the NBC days:
Ever notice how the sticky stuff on the floors of adult theaters tastes a lot like root beer barrels?
There is so much win in that joke...
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I never comment at either place, but I keep my eye out for you there.
I now want to hear the other dirty joke.
So wrong that it's right.
I'll e-mail it to you.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
{:~D
Corruption favors the wealthy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEU
Small combined arms, fast action units, with no small amount of aircraft. How many grunts in relation to command & control guys and mechanics?
The MEU that's already there has been on the ground- to rescue downed air crews.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
how do M1 Abrams figure into saving downed pilots? my prediction? the libyan armed forces will mount an "unprovoked' attack on something, any thing, that will necessitate a response.
International Criminal Court Announces New '3 Strikes' Genocide Policy
http://www.theonion.com/articles/internationa...
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
If I thought you were going for meta-snark here, I'd be impressed, because it's a perfect example of the, uhm, creativity employed in conspiracy theorists guilt-by-association tactics.
The fact is you brought few facts, and none of the facts you brought support your theoretical outcomes.
And, as I pointed out above, this train of thought:
Is no different than the bigoted arguments made by the anti-Ground Zero Mosque crowd.
ETA: But I suppose it would be irresponsible to not speculate.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
blog reader is having to take responsibility for the outcome of speculations over which I have no factual evidence. But I am American and lucky to be dumb enough not to notice how fortunate it is I am still around.
But I do know the guy who slept with me under the bleachers still calls me retarded behind my wounded back.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
Uhhh... ricky?
Probably a leeeetle bit too much information than was needed...
Just sayin'...
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
Citing conversations with relatives, xxxxxxxxxxxx said the unemployed, disenfranchised young men of eastern Libya "have nothing to lose" and are therefore "willing to sacrifice themselves" for something greater than themselves by engaging in TRIPOLI 00000120 002.2 OF 004 extremism in the name of religion. "Their lives mean nothing and they know it, so they seek to give meaning to their existence through their deaths", he said. The lack of jobs and dim prospects for future employment, together with increased costs of living, mean that many young men lack the means to marry, leaving them without a key measure of social status and stability in what remains a traditional society. As in parts of neighboring Egypt, the average age at which men marry has increased in many parts of eastern Libya. Many now marry in their early to mid-30"s, which would have been considered "middle age" in the not too distant past.
http://91.214.23.156/cablegate/wire.php?id=08...
i think one known-known about this topic is that none of us here (assuming) served in the clandestine services in NAfrica, and none of us have real knowledge of the people, tribes, culture, etc. but, what we have learned in the past--several times over--is that arming people can come back to bite us in the ass. and there is reason to suspect that not every person fighting the jack-ass gaddafi should be considered a good, trust-worthy ally
we spread democracy and humanitarianism, then grab the oil, the people then feel betrayed, then they rebel, then we kill them, if we haven't already killed them during the spreading of democracy and humanitarianism stage.
That's why I suspect the GOP has been motivated to protest this intervention: When the intervention was first suggested, Gaddafi threatened to STOP SELLING OIL TO THE WEST.
If you aren't following that, I'll put it this way: Had there been no intervention, that Libyan oil would be flowing to the US and Western Europe RIGHT NOW.
The path of least resistance would have benefited us if oil was the main concern. It is not the main concern. It is barely a concern at all in this situation.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
and the proceeds from the libyan oil under gaddafi go where? had there been no intervention, who would continue to profit from the oil?
...the same big oil people who fund the GOP anti-interventionists.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Just curious, and I have no answer...
By any chance, are there Halliburton, KBR and Xe personnel hanging around the desert there currently?
Just throwing it out there as an interesting concept and question, I think.
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
...but the "shock" of the fighting in Libya makes the market unstable and that allows speculators to drive the price of oil up. Wealthy people, wealthier...everyone else, poorer.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
...to work and the store, no? Right and left alike?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Works for me... that would be better than the shoe-leather express until my fiancee gets home from work.
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
but that argument would presume that oil speculators are in the driver's seat as far as foreign policy goes. Speculators are distinct from oil companies who must have product to sell if they are to make any money. It doesn't matter what prices are if you haven't anything to sell. I can't really see how oil is a significant factor in the Libyan intervention at least as far as US interests go.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I have learned that the Europeans get 85% of Libyan oil. Now there is a Western coalition and that coalition works both ways. We helped you in the Iraq fiasco now you back us up. Austerity is hitting the Europeans pretty hard., a massive jump in fuel prices is a no no.
And they wanted no part of- and took no part in- Iraq.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
On March 2, 2011 Qaddafi threatened to replace western oil interests with those from China or India.
After that, March 3, 2011, is when Obama upped his rhetoric, said Qaddafi must go, and said the US would consider a no fly zone.
Qaddafi's threats to Big Oil do not seem to be caused by the "intervention"; it seems that the "intervention" is more likely a reaction to the threats against Big Oil.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
After the intervention chatter had gone public. Maybe not Obama himself speaking about it, but it was there, in the open.
Again, if oil was the objective, why would Obama up the rhetoric?
And, as I've asked at C&L before, why didn't China, India or Russia use their Security Council veto power to halt intervention in its tracks?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I've checked a few places, and in none of them does Qaddafi's motivation for replacing Western Oil Interests with those from China and India appear to be in reaction to "chatter." Rather, his motivation seems to be to replace lost oil revenue from a shut down caused by western oil companies leaving the area due to the unrest.
Fom AFP:
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...to oil companies pulling out because of the violence already happening?
Does that really make sense to you? Really?
Okay, time to go to work. Later...
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
And, for later:
Yes. It makes complete sense.
Western oil companies pull out because of the violence; oil production comes to a standstill; oil revenues disappear; Qaddafi needs to replace the lost revenue.
Qaddafi threatens to cancel western contracts and bring in Chinese and Indian companies to get oil production and his cash flow moving again. Big Oil does not want it's interests and it's investments threatened, so the United States goes to war to protect them.
It's not like it's the first time we've gone to war for oil profits.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Let's go through your AFP quote again.
Isn't he pissed about production shutdowns? Why would he invite the Chinese back to the table when the Chinese are part of the problem?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Though I'm not sure about the exact corporations involved.
And the day after Big Oil was threatened, the U.S. started talking war, and now we're in that war.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
From the NYTimes
What's the date on that story?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
. . . had you given me the link. Or the date. But hey, I can use teh google. It was late February.
But sanctions are one thing (the International Criminal Court referral is a wholly different twist altogether), and military action is another. We went to war after Qaddaffi threatened Big Oil. The humanitarian concerns were there before March 2, but war as the solution didn't happen until after Qaddafi made his threats.
Moreover, with the imposition of these sanctions, what's Big Oil's most profitable resolution? If Qaddaffi stays in power he could still cancel their contracts as he has threatened. But even if he doesn't, the sanctions that would remain against him could severely limit Big Oils profits from Libya.
It is in the interests of Big Oil to remove him from power.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Here.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
...(and Cole, btw, supports this intervention, much to the chagrin of Glenn Greenwald) to someone who was only talking about the outcome as either Gaddafi or the rebels winning, and asked if there aren't more possibilities.
You're talking about Obama upping the rhetoric in response to Gaddafi, but I can't help but wondering if these are bargaining positions, and the outcome will be concessions between the two sets of Libyans- something that wouldn't be possible without intervention that has kept Gaddafi from crushing the rebellion so far.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
. . . delivering military threats, and making war on Libya to protect the interests of Big Oil. You appear to be saying that Big Oil's interests are threatened because we're making war on Libya.
But the threats to Big Oil came before the War. And the (at the time still thinly veiled) threats of military action came immediately after the threats to Oil.
* * *
I also read Professor Cole's Open letter to the Left, but he never addresses Qaddafi's threats to western oil interests (that was also the subject of my comment there).
* * *
In what way was Greenwald "chagrined"? GG only asked Cole a question (quite respectfully) as to whether this war was worth fighting in and dying for by it's proponents. Professor Cole responded (also quite respectfully) that it was. No chagrinning involved.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Obama sure knows how to use the Bully Pulpit. I thought he didn't know what it was, dealing with healthcare and all.
It took two weeks of discussion at the UN.
He thought that he could hold Cole to a position on Libya that Cole took on Iraq. Cole explained the nuanced differences in his reply at his blog. Cole seems to be of the of the belief that unlike the Iraqis, Libyans are actually out there en masse asking for the world's help in protecting them from a dictator who was actually actively working to massacre them. And on this, I'm going with the guy who's actually an expert on the Arab-speaking world, not the isolationist libertarian.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
The day after Qaddafi threatened western oil contracts. The next day,
Less than three weeks later, we're at war.
As for the Cole/Greenwald exchange, Professor Cole didn't really get into a whole lot of nuance. His answer was: "Yes." Greenwald's question was valid, and Cole's answer was straightforward.
It was a pretty classy exchange IMHO.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I have never said I was anti-intervention (but that doesn't mean I may not be). I question America's (and Sarko the American's) motives and modus operandi, as well, you should.
far left loon >.<
Prediction: FOX News will put Hitler (D) in a news ticker somewhere.
the next day. At least one will chuckle about how dumb FOX is, the other will express outrage at the rest of the media for not calling FOX out. The third will relate how this kind of error happened all the time in a previous place the poster was employed. But the third will not happen if the Democrats fail to do something that day about which the poster can complain.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
We didn't learn the lesson of the law of unintended consequences in WWI, Korea, Vietnam, helping Saddam's coup, or the business in Iraq . . .
We seem to have done a good job at causing problems for future generations so far, so why stop now?
"The greatest threat to freedom of thought is intellectual cowardice." -George Orwell, 1946
http://christianfearinggodman.blogspot.com
"avoid foreign entanglements."
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
Jesus, the Germans made a diplomatic end run around the French and Brits to appeal to Wilson for peace. Had the Brits and French had their way, they'd have put the US in the vanguard in 1919 in an effort to completely crush any further German capability to make war, as they did after WWII. Remember that other than the effects of the blockade of Germany, that country suffered little damage compare to France and Britain, both in terms of lives and infrastructure. The German military was well aware that they weren't handily defeated, but rather succumbed to the internal economic crisis. So not a really good example here.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
what camwell is saying is that if we had stayed the hell out of the first world war, which was a war over colonial possessions, there would never have been a second.
read karnow's history of vietnam about how the English re-armed the Japanese to keep order until the french could muster enough troops to re-take their colony.
And the Treaty of Versailles was intended to be punitive and humiliating --
That old law of unintended consequences again... the ones that were punished and humiliated the most were the Johann and Johanna Sechs-pack of their day, creating such resentment that there was fertile ground for the crazy to take root...
and take root it very much did...
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
It was much more about Germany being allowed unfettered access to sea lanes in order to export the ginormous quantity of goods they were capable of producing. Until the ECM came about, German exported at the whim of the Brits, mostly, whose navy could bottle up the German merchant fleet in the North and Baltic Seas. Ever notice the naval arms race in the run up to 1914? The UK and Germany constantly one-upping each other with naval technology? Alfred Thayer Mahan, my man...
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
. . . by NATO not to attack civilians.
But the more weapons that pour in there the more difficult it becomes to determine exactly who "the civilians" are. From The NYT:
Thats's kinda like that show Dinosaurs where the baby dinosaur could only make the distinction between "Mama" and "Not the Mama." Trouble is, that guy Donilon isn't a baby (let alone a talking dinosaur), he's advising the president on national security, on a mission to protect civilians, and he defined what "civilians" are solely in terms of political objectives. How does that work as it filters down to the guys dropping bombs?
Ya think?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
then the "surge" comes in and all bets are off in deciding who's who, civilians be damned. Winning is tantamount and incurring costs is a minor point. Collateral murder is a necessary evil in the name of oil and strategic middle east policy. Let's stick with the Cheney playbook.
i cannot fricking believe the, i will say it, ignorance and naivete on display. and it is not a ploy to get attention. johnson lied us into 'nam, 68,000 dead, how many vietnamese? a million?
now because we have a donkey for emperor, everyone jumps on the obomber bandwagon. we have had over a hundred years of these interventions around the world, and now you are believing the press?
Who's in charge? Germans pull forces out of NATO as Libyan coalition falls apart
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13686...
400 Marines to join Kearsarge near Libya
http://militarytimes.com/news/2011/03/militar...
jesus christ, has it not sunk in that the US government lies to it's people?
Tuskegee syphilis experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tuskegee_Syp...
god help us, you talk about the right wing being in denial, and i ain't talking about the river in africa.
they put amphibious assault ships in place for one thing, amphibious assault.
...LEGALIZED SLAVERY, SO IT MUST BE PLOTTING TO REVIVE THAT INSTITUTION!
Because arguing history alone is much easier than figuring out the shifting nuance of the present day.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
how about shifting sands? if we need the oil, just admit it, and go and get it, but not without declaring war. at least be honest. as far as iran goes, we have had special ops in there for years, read some seymour hersh.
For chrissakes, how obvious can it be that those who have been willing to intervene are shooting themselves in the foot if the main concern is oil and not humanitarian considerations?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
we , the USA, have killed approx. 2,000 civilians in Pakistan, going after targets there. how does this figure into not slaughtering civilians?
i am not against going after the "turrists" just depends on how we do it.
As for Pakistan...It's not the first time I've put it out there, but I think the whole thing morphed because Pakistan was forced to stop placating the Pashtuns on their side of the Khyber Pass. The Taliban are almost all Pashtuns, ya know? Ethnically Persian. The civil war in Afghanistan was still going on between the Pashtuns, who are the largest ethnic group inside of Afghanistan while not the majority of the population, and non-Pashtuns. Pakistan, which of course is nearly all ethnically Indian, armed the Taliban on both sides of the border pre-9/11, occasionally calling on the Taliban for incursions into India.
I'm basically of the same mindset of Colin Powell and his Pottery Barn Rule when it comes to that region. While the US- the Bushco administration- bears the brunt of the responsibility for the current situation by allowing whatshisass escape at Tora Bora, there's no small amount of blame to be put on the Brits for demarcating Afghanistan's border with what's now Pakistan, and the Russians, not necessarily for the invasion in '79, but for the hand they had in deposing the Shah of Afghanistan in '73, and the ensuing destabilization between rival factions, both backed by Moscow, up until the invasion. It's hard to imagine it as late as the 1970's, but the feudal system under the Shah was pretty damned handy in holding the country together.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
the moniker I read the other day "cruise missile liberals". We gotta keep the tiger in the tank, boo yah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_%28title%29
Clinton To Congress: Obama Would Ignore Your War Resolutions
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/cl...
Obama's new view of his own war powers
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_green...
all honor and glory to our most beneficent emperor obomber! let us all heed his commands! so that his greatness and munificence may shower down upon us!
As I said yesterday, it's safe to assume the "Mission Creep" began long before any ships arrived at Libya. (And probably before Libya was discussed at the UN.)
far left loon >.<
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sup_...
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sec_...
"(c) Presidential executive power as Commander-in-Chief; limitation
The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to
(1) a declaration of war,
(2) specific statutory authorization, or
(3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces."
please note, " attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces."
Thank you, Brad Reed.
Reed's "predictions" are based on absolutely nothing, and that's what they're worth. Hasn't anyone noticed that the only people issuing dire warnings about middle east rebellions leading to Muslim theocracies and terrorist takeovers have been exclusively (until now) coming from Republican demagogs?
No one in Egypt is talking about an Islamic government, probably because the Egyptians aren't stupid, and have not missed the object lesson of Iran that they see every day.
Furthermore, the Arab "street" has historically supported terrorist organizations only when they've bought into their leaders' lies that the west is the cause of all their problems. Obviously, if they still bought into those lies, they wouldn't be demonstrating against their leaders.
Fear-mongering predictions without a shred of evidence are not helpful, but are completely counter-productive. Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, Egypt, Tunisia and Libya are all the result of the peoples' desire and demand for representative government.
Oh, but how could I be so naive? These are BROWN-SKINNED people, so of course they're all terrorists and religious fundamentalists...
C&L should be ashamed to have published such garbage.
"No amount of intelligence or education is a guarantee against stupidity."
the UN arms embargo wont that give others license to do the same? I mean if I were a country looking to find out how my new shoulder fired AA weapon worked against the latest western warplanes this would be a perfect lab.
right. the CIA guys must not wear boots right?(at least not on the ground)......sneakers?
Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Religious countries seldom are.
Ed-words
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