Nixon's Lawyer: Are We Civilized Enough To Prosecute For Torture?
Top international lawyer Philippe Sands QC speaks before the House Judiciary Constitution, Civil Rights & Civil Liberties Subcmte. in May last year, states without reservation that war crimes were committed by the most senior members of the Bush administration.
Via AlterNet comes a remarkable piece from John W. Dean, fomer White House counsel to Nixon, who writes that Obama must prosecute bush administration officials and that, if he doesn't, other nations are very likely too. Read the whole thing, but he concludes:
My question is how can the Obama Administration not investigate, and, if appropriate, prosecute given the world is watching, because if they do not, other may do so? How could there be "change we can believe in" if the new administration harbors war criminals – which is the way that Philippe Sands and the rest of the world, familiar with the facts which have surfaced even without an investigation, view those who facilitated or engaged in torture?
One would think that people like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Addington, Gonzales, Yoo, Haynes and others, who claim to have done nothing wrong, would call for investigations to clear themselves if they really believed that to be the case. Only they, however, seem to believe in their innocence – the entire gutless and cowardly group of them, who have shamed themselves and the nation by committing crimes against humanity in the name of the United States.
We must all hope that the Obama Administration does the right thing, rather than forcing another country to clean up the mess and seek to erase the dangerous precedent these people have created for our country.
Great stuff.
Prosecution of these war criminals before the international community does so will bring Obama international and domestic respect. If he waits until we are shamed into it by the UN or the Hague, it will undercut his presidency, continue to erode our reputation internationally, and create a legacy of failure for this president.
This is one thing he absolutely MUST do to "walk the talk" and put our Constitution back into view.
I don't think even they believe in their innocence. They believe they have a loophole or executive priviledge or that they can use semantics to get around very clear laws.
One of the chief investigators of the UN is presently working on charges against the Bush administration for war crimes. This is fair warning to the Obama administration that they'd better kick their own movement on prosecutions into high gear or they will be besmerched by the shame of inaction. It's at their doorstep right now and the UN is not wasting any time in pursuit of war crimes trials.
Prosecute
Punish
All war crimes
All FISA crimes
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Actually Obama supported the FISA crimes...so I can't see that happening.
Prominent Democratics gave at least tacit support to torture, so I can see this happening either.
"In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk . . . . With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan). Individual lawmakers' recollections of the early briefings varied dramatically, but officials present during the meetings described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp...0801664_pf.html
"The Washington Post has disclosed sources saying that Democratic leadership, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, were told of waterboarding in secret briefings in September 2002. . . . The news would serve to explain why the Democrats have repeatedly act [sic] to protect the White House from a showdown on torture. . . . This also explains the failure of the Democrats to block votes that seemed to legitimate waterboarding and unlawful surveillance."
http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/10/
That is why Pelosi obstructed all efforts to call Bush and Cheney to accounts by impeaching them...she's is up to her ears in complicity in these war crimes and crimes against humanity, and obstructed justice and betrayed her Constitutional duties in order to cover her own criminal and worthless ass. Any war crimes prosecutions must also include her, and her fellow complicit Democrats, among the accused.
she's as guilty as Bush. (or at least complicit)
Two reasons:
He is a product of the corporate-political machine.
We don't count.
Nice plug for his book at the beginning of his testimony.
exactly and hes going to be a one term president ! jebs in the wings waiting !
#3: http://www.strike-the-root.com/91/groves/grov...
If we want Obama to investigate these criminals it will take more then hope, we need to write Obama every day that we demand he launch an investigation. We must show him that we are all serious about this and if we all don't speak out he might not hear us.
Hell, we should simply be able to demand it, if Obama is going to give in to the Republicans on their demands for the stimulous package then he should listen to our demands regarding war crime trials.
Yep. Obama should also listen to his concience.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Obama has already bombed and killed kids in Pakistan. Torture is futher down on the immoral scale.
Good point. I supported Obama since he won Iowa in the primaries, but if he continues to kill innocents like Bush I will not support him any longer. Being anti-war trumps being a Democrat to me.
Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity. Albert Einstein
Ron Paul and Dennis want to end all the involvement oversease period. People should vote for whoever has the best chance the next election if we are lucky enough to have either of them run.
The Nixon administration.......The Reagan/Bush I Administrations.......The Bush-Cheney Administrations.....
What do they all have in common?
See any kind of pattern here?
Um...all guilty as hell of all kinds of things, and all escape justice?
We have a winner.
Mentor to Nixon, Puppet Ike and VP Nixon, then POTUS Nixon to Rumsfeld, Cheney and GHWB, then the puppet POTUS Reagan and the power behind the throne VP GHWB, then the puppet GWB and the real power Cheney.
Thats the pattern.
Don't forget Clinton, he created the ground work for the banks and the secret renditions.
Yeah, Clinton did not have clean hands in this cancerous growth of felonies committed by US administrations, though Clinton's renditions were much milder in character that GW's.
Clinton's prisoners were sent back to their home countries only if they were wanted for crimes committed there, not for the express purpose of torture. I read that many of Clinton's returnees were tortured at home but not at Clinton's behest, unlike the Bush administration's practice of finding countries to torture these poor souls in America's stead.
YEahhhh but he created the floor for which Bush built his crappy empire one. Don't believe everything you hear either. Check out Project Echelon. He was spying on you without a warrant too.
Can any 1 say war on Drugs????
YEah, Ron is against the war on drugs and thats a good thing.
Eliminating Glass-Steagal which stopped regulating banks etc. and allowed "free-market" investing fiascos that have led us right to the doorsteps of the Depression we are all now feeling.
That's Economic Criminality and unforgivable.
He and his advisers knew better. More for the wealthy ruling class and fuck the middle class and the poor.
The Democrats are as guilty as the Republicans in ALL matters of legislative criminality, whether it be economic or military...corporate or media related. It's the various cabals against the common man. Which is one reason why we won't see health care instituted for everyone. They have theirs! And they don't give a flying F about the rest of us schlubs!
Just my opinion, of course.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Dems just disguise their criminality better, I personally can't stand both parties. We need a REAL third party with the emphasis on REAL.
from a Ron Paul supporter....sorry you fail, please crawl back in your delusional hole. Clinton, yes, was part of the problem, but supporting another lock step Republican is just pure idiocy.
I am not delusional buddy, its fact. THE BOTH parties are corrupt.
Where do you get the diea ROn PAul is a lockstep republician, this just proves you do not know what you are talking about.
practically joined at the hip on about 90% of their political beliefs.
They part company on key economic issues...free-market vs. socialism, but other than that, they are best buds.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Yep if it's someone from another country. The Bush Regime? Not. Gonna. Happen.
Cuz half of America thinks torture kept us safe. If only someone had gotten a bj!
Would that keep us safe?
as torture at keeping a nation safe from ethereal criminal masterminds with no other purpose than to destroy America.
or a... or doing something unsavory with somebody other than their spouse.
Hunter S. Thompson was working on the newer version of the Franklin/DC child sex
ring, he then committed suicide, which wasn't something HST would have done.
There are reports of the DoJ quietly investigating tho, we could see some very big Washington names go down in flames soon.
Is this a trick question? I mean, obviously if we committed torture, the question of civility is, I would think moot.
A more pressing question is are we civilized enough to not torture?
uncovers strong evidence of systematic torture (which we know happened), it's worse than pointless to prosecute - we're well beyond the point of finding "a few more bad apples".
Well, perhaps the Republicans are not, but I think we should move forward and give them a chance to catch up.
'We, the People'............rimshot................hahahahahaha!
If we had prosecuted to the fullest, the criminals in the Nixon admin, would we be in this situation today? Or even the Reagan-Bush I admin, for Iran-Contra? I think there's no one to blame but ourselves, because we keep allowing these asswipes to good free and unpunished and the public just goes on its merry way. While I'd love to see this Bush Jr admin prosecuted, tried and convicted, it's just not going to happen given our history of a complacent public and a moronic public.
Obama took an oath to support and defend the Constitution; the Constitution requires equal protection under the law. Unless he is prepared to issue preemptive pardons, I don't believe he has a choice. Neither does Holder - both because of a similar oath he will take and because of his obligations as a lawyer.
It's not like we debate whether to investigate whether or not some kid with some cocaine goes to prison for 10 years; we just lock him up. We have the most severe justice system in the world if you smoke marijuana, but a forgiving system for possibly the most heinous crime on the books?
What planet is this?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
No shit.
It is to " PRESERVE, PROTECT and defend the Constitution..."
I noted that today the new Senator from New York was given the oath and the word "PRESERVE" was left out. To me, it is the CRITICAL word in the oath.
Sorry to be so picky....
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Is there a statute of limitations as to the crimes committed and is that the reason the goopers are obstructing the nomination of Holder?
alright, two questions.
But the SOL (great acronym, huh) can be tolled in some instances - including where the crime is concealed.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Five years for non capital offenses.
No limit for capital offenses.
18 USC § 2340. Definitions.
18 USC § 2340A. Torture - when someone dies torture is a capital offense.
18 USC § 3281. Capital offenses
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
there is no statute of limitations for war crimes under international and US law.
From the Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations
to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity:
... I don't believe that the U.S. is a signatory to this convention.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
That doesn't matter. Even if a country does not sign the convention, it's still subject to international law if it commits war-crimes. It appears that this convention is included with the laws that govern the International Criminal Court, though it was adopted before the court was created by various countries.
But it crimps their style if they want to travel overseas.
Henry Kissenger can't go to France and other counties. He is a war criminal responsible for the deaths of millions.
War criminal Kissenger was at the Olympics.
Private citizen (and war criminal) Rumsfeld had to flee France last year (with the help of US officials) when the French police went to arrest him at that hotel.
He was whisked off to a US base in Germany and flown to the US in a military plane.
Nice law avoiding perks for somebody who isnt a gov official.
Wow, can you show me sommthing on the net where I can view some info on this:) THis kicks ass, I love the French:)
Can you point to an article or anything? I never heard this.
http://www.alternet.org/story/66425/
But don't know how reliable the reporting is.
I have know idea whether removal of SOL's would apply to a non-signatory. But, as a practical matter, we need to get him here. I doubt Bush will be doing much traveling abroad.
Except maybe to Fiji. They don't wear shoes there, do they?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Principles and Accomplices, that pretty much covers Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Addington, etc...
If blow jobs were war crimes you can bet that the Repugs would have sent Clinton to the Hague in chains.
'We, the People'............rimshot................hahahahahaha!
Obama/Congress don't even need to investigate. Just one of these tortured people, once they're free, from being tortured, needs to pop into a local precinct and swear out a complaint.
do not want any of the Gitmo prisoners on US soil ie the 50 states plus territories, not that it would matter if they got access to a lawyer proper at Gitmo base, its technically US soil and thus suitable as a place to swear out a complaint.
They just need access to civilian lawyers, who will do their job as their oaths and legal certificates state.
from the list of those who should be prosecuted. Judges were prosecuted at Nuremberg if memory serves. The U.S. government became the Fourth Reich for 8 years.
Nuremberg did prosecute judges.
If this administration can pull this off there will be heads rolling all over. And heads exploding.
then the rest of the world might believe that america has begun a new chapter.
I said it before and I will say it again "the war criminals will walk".
say about the subject? Is he for prosecution?
If you are talking about Ron Paul? He is always for getting rid of criminals. He is only in the Rpub party because he has to be.
I'll grant you during the repub primaries he was the only one to show respect for the constitution but that doesn't mean he's for investigations and prosecutions. I mean all repubs claim to be strong on crime, but that don't make it so.
Not saying RP is against investigations/prosecutions, just that we don't know.
I am positive he is, you have to remember turning against a party you are in has to be done with caution. You really do not know what its like behind the scenes. He says both parties are controlled by the same people.
Check this video out...
Listent what he says and watch the reaction of the fox host guy when he says BOTH parties are controlled:)
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zFg26Q1I-fk
to get guidance from somebody, either his studio manager or some TLA type is making frantic hand signals to change subject/do not answer.
and Beck hasnt a clue, half of what is said goes over his head.
Not the best idea to hire confessed ex cokeheads for national TV slots, or twice convicted Oxycontin junkies for talk radio either.
The way I see things, no matter your politics its your heart that matters:)Ron Paul (agree with everything or not) his heart is in the right place for you and your livelyhood. Just like Dennis, ralph and Mckinney WHO RON SUPPORTS WITH HIS NAME and supporters:) We support these people too, he did a press conference for them and used the popularity he could get to help them and Ralph did do to bad despite the huge votes for Obama. The troops support him (ron)before everyone...that still means something.
We need to work together, I suggest you take a look at campaignforliberty.org Yeah I am not spamming, we need to have all the help we can get to make sure we hold this government feet to the fire.
Oh I forgot, Beck is a moron.
LIsten to Gerald Celente, he is on MSM and the net, Alex Jones interviews him here. I put a real important part up here but I encourage you to listen to the whole interview.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=OIJMto8To90&fea...
Yes, he HAS to be...there's a gun pointed at his head, and they are threatening to torture him and his family if he doesn't stay in the Republican line. Soryy, back to your delusional troll hole.
Oh gove me a break, you know he is not on the side of the evil guys, he hates both parties. To stay in politics you have to be in one of the parties.
No.
Sen. Bernie Sanders
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Debates? Do you see independents in the debates? Does it realy matter what party he is in? He speaks out against both. It doesn't mean he supports them because he doesn't. Republicans run someone against him every 2 years and fund that guy to the hilt just to lose of course.
Bernie Sanders, a self proclaimed socialist who ran as an independent, isn't the junior United States Senator from Vermont?
And why are the Ron Paul spammers back? And what are they doing on this thread?
{ This goes for both of you. Get back on topic. SiteMonitor}
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I am not a spammer and I resent you calling me that. You just don't like what I have to say and you insult me. How would you like if I insult you. Did I pick an argument with you?
of partisanship, can't we all just get along?
I love getting along, I always do. I never picked a argument with anyone. If you do not agree fine but I am not spammer.
I apologize, and will correct the comment on edit.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Thank you very much.
We did, thanks site monitor.
Congress would have to repeal the "Hague Invasion Act" if the US depends on other countries to do what the current administration refuses to do.
I am beginning to think that the ICC is the only remaining hope America has to recover our legitimacy and identity in the world, by prosecuting the Bush people to the limits of international law.
They are the only chance because if congress had any legitimacy they would have them all in prison years ago...Kissenger too.
Bush was no ordinary war criminal. He actually attacked another country aggressively for criminal reasons. All the lies and excuses he fed the US need to be investigated and proven so he and his gang can be appropriately punished. The humongous war crime of shock and awe makes torture seem like small potatoes.
Are we civilized enough to prosecute war crimes? Sadly no, but some countries in Europe and the UN are.
Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity. Albert Einstein
The U.N. is toothless and has been the target of a massive destabilising effort from neocons since they gained any semblance of power.
Europe (and no-one else for that matter) will not have the political will or fortitude to try and bring the U.S. to account.
Both groups have had ample time, evidence and opportunity to do so already and did 2/5ths of f*^% all.
..."if the new [Obama] administration harbors war criminals"...
that's not an extremely powerful phrase now, is it?
Didn't Germany already bring charges against Rumsfeld? Wasn't that about the time we withdrew from the international criminal courts? Ugg sigh, repeat, and forget...
Edit... OP!!!!!
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,859...
Last night when Keith Olbermann interviewed Jonathan Turley, Turley said that if President Obama didn't allow prosecution of the war crimes committed by the last administration, then President Obama would make himself an accessory.
Turley: Obama ‘accessory’ to war crimes if no prosecution
Jonathan Turley is a real good person, more people should listen to him and he is quite right on this.
That Barack Obama was a Constitutional Law Professor before he became a State Senator in Illinois.
He absolutely knows better. He HAS to know that Jonathan Turley is correct. And Holder knows too. They ALL know.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Yes he does know, but he will not do anything because the same people control both parties. We are only going to see windowdressing things change like Abortion and Stemcell. These things are big in normal times but they are not big compared to the patriot act and warcrimes.
Nothing controversial or in moral retrospect will be done. The expansion of executive branch power (and it's attendant Congressional complicity) only a totally moral president might give up. As a 'pragmatic' president handicapped with a depression would you bog down your first term with morality as the keynote? No, you would take care of the most serious matters first (economy/war/drugs/famine, etc) and if there was some energy left over, tackle everything else.
Torture is a bit like the death penalty, it helps to have them on the books if they are ever needed, whether they work or not, are used or not.
The result will be a step in the wrong direction though. With billions of competitors America's citizens must adapt, to the lower standards. Women will lose rights. International corporations will gain in power over national entities. Quality education and health care will diminish. Technology will march on and facilitate subjugation of the masses and further concentrate wealth. Shortage of water and more concentrated agriculture will aggravate the food situation/raise food prices. Poverty will increase whether global warming or cooling occurs. The only change that matters is a significant reduction in population and that seems unlikely. The patriot act, loss of habeas corpus, and war crimes don't matter except for the elite, the idealists, or those forgotten or in the gulag. Welcome to the 21st century! Humanity is NOT civilized enough.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7854915.stm
I don't know who to blame....stuff happens! And then the psychologists come out of the bushes to hawk their wares: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28885495/
This was a couple taking responsibility in a society where very little was offered and everything was taken away. No safety nets, no hope, they gave up. Expect more of the same and other crazy acts in the future, imcluding events like 9/11 and worse.
obfuscating and delaying prosecutions and actively stopping them.
Its a fine line, both are bad. I suspect it will be the former, lots and lots of legal arguments to delay delay delay.
Already the Gitmo case files are missing, they claim they is no central database/storage of case files, supposedly the CIA hangs onto their files like grim death and assumablly will quote national security in stopping their publication and or release to potential prosecutors.
They already destroyed all the video recordings to protect their officials from incrimination and indictments.
Just consider what kind of trouble would erupt if Bush and the rest were arrested in Paris, Berlin, or Barcelona. It would be better if we did the investigation and trials here. What were these jackasses thinking when they committed these unlawful acts? Did they really believe no one would pursue justice? I also believe all of us knew that the service personnel at Abu Ghraib that were prosecuted were scapegoats for the Bush administration. It is frightening to consider all of us were under the leadership of idiots and bullies for 8 long years
1. it would be a major international incident. It would not be received well by the U.S., even if Obama is in charge.
2. They were thinking and dreaming of power, as do all these types.
3. Yes, they really did & do believe no one would pursue justice against them. With good reason too, i might add.
4. Abu Ghraib? most likely.
5. It is frightening to others around the globe as well. How could Americans be so stupid *twice*?
Dubya doesn't much like ferrin' countries. Last time Rumsfeld was in France they gave him a heads up to run. And how many times has Kissinger been outside the U.S. since Chile? If Europeans never succeeded in getting a citizen's arrest on Pinocet, what are the odds with Dubya? Professional courtesy among rulers to protect their own.
But, yes. That's the way Obama plans to regain the international stature of the United States? By giving the Bush Regime a pass on torture while show trials are carried out around the world? Doesn't smell like "change" to me.
Couldn't have said it better.
There is no wiggle room on this subject . . . If Obama refuses to prosecute he is complicit! It is the way, possibly the only way, we can gain back respect world wide.
knew that Rumsfeld was wrong wrong wrong for Defense:
Cheney knew Rummy was wrong, and needed an incompetent in that position. Bush didn't give a f$ck, and Rummy? Maybe he thought it was a "trade" appointment....
http://thetorturer.com
Not good news here on the political scene for those who would like to see the Obama administration prosecute the Bush administration for various crimes:
Obama lawyers set to defend Yoo
The rest at the link.
The end game is to have Bush and Cheney and all of the other conspirators handcuffed and sent to the Hague.
However, you don't start at the top. You always get the low level conspirators to squeal on their former bosses. They have the inside evidence and direct proof that leads to final convictions.
When investigating drug dealers, they always get the small fish to rat on the big sharks. There's always loyalty and intimidation at play, with revenge and outright murders.
Do not think for a moment that Bush and Cheney would not order the murder of witnesses or prosecutors if it gets them out. They will sell out their subordinates whenever and wherever they can to avoid jail time themselves. They are the true cowards.
Congress has to start at the bottom and build a wide case without hesitation to go to the top. Don't be impatient, nor think that Obama doesn't want to see these guys investigated.
It's better to take your time and do it right, than to rush in and have the cases spoiled or an acquittal or other mistrial on technical grounds. These cases need to be rock-solid and thorough. Obama can't be identified with them right now, as they would be a distraction to other issues (economy). Time is on our side now. Don't rush. There is no statute of limitations for war crimes. Let the congress investigative move forward naturally. Obama needs the distance. He'll act when facts and evidence are presented from congress.
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