Correction: U.S. actually did execute Japanese soldiers for waterboarding
By David Neiwert Friday Apr 24, 2009 3:00pm
We made a mistake the other day when Paul Begala left Ari Fleischer dumbstruck by saying:
BEGALA: We -- our country executed Japanese soldiers who water- boarded American POWs. We executed them for the same crime that we are now committing ourselves. How do you defend that?
We chided Begala slightly because we thought he wasn't quite right on the facts:
Actually, Fleischer could have countered Begala by pointing out that we didn't actually execute the Japanese soldiers convicted of the war crime of waterboarding American prisoners -- we just sentenced them to 15 years' hard labor.
But now, Begala makes clear he knew whereof he spoke:
But I was not referring to Asano, nor was my source Sen. Kennedy. Instead I was referencing the statement of a different member of the Senate: John McCain. On November 29, 2007, Sen. McCain, while campaigning in St. Petersburg, Florida, said, "Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding."
Sen. McCain was right and the National Review Online is wrong. Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times' truth-testing project (which this week was awarded a Pulitzer Prize), scrutinized Sen. McCain's statement and found it to be true. Here's the money quote from Politifact:
"McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps."
The folks at Politifact interviewed R. John Pritchard, the author of The Tokyo War Crimes Trial: The Complete Transcripts of the Proceedings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. They also interviewed Yuma Totani, history professor at the University of Nevada-Las Vegas, and consulted the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, which published a law review article entitled, "Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts."
We apologize to Begala for the error.
We'll be waiting a long time, I expect, for all those right-wingers out there who claim waterboarding isn't torture to apologize to the world.
Login or Register to post comments.
Torture is a war crime, let us treat it as such.
Investigate, prosecute and punish.
Here is Glenn Greenwald's latest.
See also his other recent writing on the 'politics' of war crimes prosecution.
Handcuff, prosecute and punish would be less expensive. Whats to investigate? We just let these guys walk around and they shrug their shoulders.
This is yet another non sequitur.
Where is your gravitas?
The names of the Japanese men executed for waterboarding among other things are
General Kenji Doihara
Baron Kōki Hirota
General Seishirō Itagaki
General Heitarō Kimura
General Iwane Matsui
General Akira Muto
General Hideki Tōjō
So should we prosecute the Directors of the CIA and US Army General in Iraq and if found guilty of permitting waterboarding, should we execute them as a matter of precedent?
What makes sense?
Prosecute ANYONE AND EVERYONE that aided or kept silent in the knowledge of the use of torture !
If Sean Hannity goes through with his Fox circus dunk tank stunt, waterboarding will be nothing but a punch line for right wingers ever again.
There will be no apologies, no soul-searching, nothing but laughter if this is brought up to the rightards.
They've got entertainers making jokes. No need for thoughts.
after 10 seconds, he thought he was dying
it was no stunt...it was real
they'll be calling the geological epoch in which the torture apologists admit they were wrong.
I include Democrats in that list. I expect some small speck of morality from Democrats. I do not expect any morality from Republicans.
Time to clean house of these torturers. It's like an infestation of hornets. You've got to clear them all out and destroy the nest. If half our damned government needs to go to the slammer, that's fine by me. We need a government that does not mock compassion and flout the law as if torture was the equivalent of dropping a gum wrapper on the fucking sidewalk.
Looks like we have a check mate! And here the republicans thought we were all still playing checkers.
We executed them for the same crime that we are now committing ourselves. How do you defend that?
Note to Ari: You can't defend that.
I just had to say it!
At least this explains Ari soiling himself on national television.
Kudos both to you and Paul Begala. Outstanding!
The Greatest Generation? Heck all they know is war let's not repeat that. Isn't that the point of War? To end Wars?
I trust you were being cynical there Evet. The point of war, from the Romans through to today, has always been to make some people wealthy - be that through the conquering of foreign territory/resources and/or through the provisioning of armaments.
it boils down to this.
they are saying it can't be torture; because we gave it a different name.
Thats a pretty weak legal argument. I think there are going to be war crimes prosecutions.
http://sciencedem.blogspot.com
By Charles Grodin??!
I used to like Charles Grodin. If he participates in a stunt like that I will lose all respect for him I ever had.
And let's be frank here. If Hannity were to be "waterboarded", it wouldn't be the same as what we did to detainees and everybody knows it.
In the meantime, the official numbers came out today of 100,000 dead in Iraq. Bush Co. has more to be prosecuted for than torture. How about an illegal invasion of a sovereign country who did us no harm in which 100,000 human beings were murdered??
Paul Krugman covers that here:
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article2...
And here's an interesting little exchange between John Conyers and Yoo:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/200...
Conyers: "Games being played."
Indeed.
I don't want to see Hannity waterboarded for any reason, asshole that he is. All due respect to Olbermann, who I assume was making a stab at black humor the other night with his challenge to Flathead, I believe we would just be turning torture into entertainment, in large part because of your point about the nature of being tortured for real and being tortured to make a point. Just one more reality tv show. Ew.
I don't care if Hannity can take multiple waterboardings and come out grinning or end up in a psych ward for the rest of his life. It would be another chip out of our crumbling collective dignity.
As usual, Krugman absolutely nails it:
"[investigation] ... followed by prosecutions -- not out of vindictiveness, but because this is a nation of laws. We need to do this for the sake of our future. For this isn't about looking backward, it's about looking forward -- because it's about reclaiming America's soul."
Do you think the bailouts are working? NOT!
More of a black hole. This guy actually calls himself an economist. What an absolute joke.
Please provide links for Krugman saying he supports the bailouts per se.
In my reading he has repeatedly called for nationalization, an unfortunate term perhaps, maybe not always the one he has used.
As I say once again, please provide links.
... pretty sore hindquarters, right about now.
Finest ass-kicking I've seen in awhile. Way to go Alice!
Most people that I've had the displeasure to meet who identify themselves as "liberian Republican" are people who voted for Shrub TWICE and are bitter because he didn't succeed in becoming an actual dictator.
Now that everything he stood for has proven to be an absolute disaster, they change their name to something more compatible to make themselves feel good.
Nice job in deflating another 'I don't need no stinkin' facts' wingnut.
It is too bad they deleted it, there were some good links. It was not rude.
[Other than as a post that concerned bailout policy it was well off topic here, the topic being 'Correction: U.S. actually did execute Japanese soldiers for waterboarding' Sitemonitor]
that since the subject at hand has nothing to do with serial lying, theft, or the starving of defenseless women and children, how would ari fleisher know anything about it.
members of Team Apartheid and Team Torture (ari's on both) never seem to get it, do they?
These stupid discussions are nothing but more propaganda spewing from your teevee.
There is nothing to debate:
It wasn't 'harsh interrogation techniques'.
It was torture.
It doesn't matter what information was gained or not gained.
It is a war crime, and last time I checked, war crimes were illegal.
It doesn't matter that they say it won't happen again.
It was a war crime then, it is still a war crime.
As an example, if I robbed the bank last week but said I would never do it again, I would still be prosecuted for the robbery last week.
These talking heads, if they weren't so sickening, would be funny.
Does anyone know the difference between a, "failed bank robbery", and a, "failed bank", robbery? The former gets a prison sentence, the latter gets a bail-out. The same goes for, "Executive Privelege", and torture!
The torture begins when the talking heads violate the intelligence of rational, sane, human beings. Spinning endlessly for their paychecks from the very corporations that cause the problems!
Democrat/Republican doesn't matter, the corporate lobbyists run the show! That is why they can rob the banks and you too!
I like to share this on my blog! Can I ?
Nice move by the Harper government eh! Seems he hired this f%$! gas bag http://mostlywater.org/harper_hires_bushs_lia...
to boost Canada in the USA. I guess he figures he needs such a high quality liar to lie about Harper's conservative party.
Republicans think war is like a football game, and they can change the rules in their favor. Torture is not a game.
karl rove didn't sit in on the torture meetings.
i say give the bush family, james baker 3, rove & maybe colin powell clemency.
the rest?
put 'em on trial.
just like that? r-really?
bullfrog, I don't know your political bent, but if you lean progressive, then that sounded like a joke (and I did laugh); if you lean conservative, then, well...you'd like that, wouldn't ya? Either way, no biggie, but I did chuckle.
Peace.
I'm afraid you're right. This must be done. Well maybe not clemency. President Obama has a lot on his plate so he won't get involved. The system has to take over now, route out the Rs and Ds and FBIs and CISs and military that tortured.
... could make better points than me about this during an extended conversation, but it just struck me as funny to simply outright let these guys off the hook. But if is a matter of necessity coupled with the harsh reality that, let's face it, rich, connected white guys do not typically go to jail and we might well be wasting our time trying to send them there, then yeah, as a practical matter bullfrog may have a point.
But what a bummer to have to concede justice in favor of expediency, eh?
Ah well...it's almost beer-thirty...
The only part i agree with is to follow the evidence, even if it exonerates a few bad guys of involvement in torture, and incriminates a few Dems that are also involved.
The idea that Rove was not involved is an interesting one though, for the moment that is. hheh.
I missed the part about bush. No clemency. sorry.
I think we all know that there is no way Hannity will let himself be waterboarded. That chicken shit will say he never really meant to be waterboarded, he was just trying to make a point. Clowns like Hannity would never have the balls to do anything that might give him any discomfort.
Ya, what's the matter Hannity? Chicken?
and Life Insurance Company wouldn't like it.
They can have a doctor present. problem solved.
... just use his own camera crew, and his own military-looking "waterboarders" (actors playing a role), and some sleight-of-hand stage setting. So he can come up gasping but grinning and saying "see, that ain't so bad."
Again, problem solved.
Oh, and then the actor playing the doctor role will step in to take his "vital signs" and start complimenting him on what great shape he's in, and so forth.
Hannity = con-man, a grade-A scam artist.
If he is going to do it, then I suggest he be held under for 25-30 seconds. When he comes up gasping for air, he will re-think his position whether this is torture or not.
Make it real.
"When he comes up gasping for air, he will re-think his position................."
Maybe............
For example, when he says "STOP! ENOUGH!"
He should be ignored.
Good point. I think the usual regime is about twenty minutes, so how about one tenth that lenght of time. That should be fine as we wouldn't want to really torture anyone.
That would put it at about two minutes for Hannity's TV challange.
He should do fine for just a minute or two, even if he's crying 'uncle'. Maybe he will go even longer before calling 'uncle', but if he crys 'uncle' before the manditory two minutes he gets demerit points and the challange continues for the full two minutes anyway. That's a fair and balanced contest.
4 minutes or untill he says "I'm a lying sack of shit" ?
the torturer enablers will claim we owe reparations to the families of "wrongly executed" Japanese waterboarder-ers.
JUst saw this over at CommonDreams and had to share:
Yes they will claim we owe reparations to the families of "wrongly executed" Japanese waterboarder-ers.
Let the republicans chew on that for a while.
"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the [UN Convention on Torture]. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.
The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."
signed: Ronald Reagan,
1984 UN Convention on Torture
Good find! Well played, sir.
From Saint Ronnie himself!
Most excellent, Ryoko.
Guess who was president the last time the US prosecuted someone for waterboarding?
If you guessed Ronald Reagan, you win a cookie. The case was in 1983 against a sheriff and his deputies who thought it would be fun to waterboard their prisoners. They were convicted and sent to prison.
Or, should that be, let's rendition you out of town ...
Thanks, Ryoko. This is one more fact that the repubs cannot deny. Sweet!
http://italy.usembassy.gov/viewer/article.asp...
Bush Calls Torture "an Affront to Human Dignity Everywhere", June 26, 2003
my apologies to our current prez and that wimpy idiot who thinks he is the senate majority leader....but this fuck must fry
DO YOU HEAR ME??????
they impeached a prez for getting a bj that didnt kill a single soul...didnt cause a single soul to lose dollar one from his/her 401k
yet w gets to hang out in texas and soak up the rays????
HELL NO!!!!!!!
So how are the wing nuts going to spin what their god had to say when it came to torture? What will Hannity and limpballs have to say about this?
Hannity and linba's god says "do unto others as your ego tell you to"
"survival of the most greedy"
and
"if my people do it, it isn't torture"
Hang your head in shame.
Todays Republicans , right wing pundits and reps are a bunch of douche' bags , absolute low lifes . They regularly lie straight faced no matter how outrageous and blatant the lie and insist that black is white and white is black , these people have no shame and on conscience and the God damned MSM lets them get away with it and gives them all the air time and print they want . It's a good thing for them that I am not in charge because a purge is definitely in order .
They both suck. The democrats and republicans. Both statists. They don't really want freedom, but obedience to them, not the constitution or the principles that built America.
that after the Japanese waterboarded US soldiers and obtained the information they needed, they cut their heads off. THAT is torture comrades.
No, that's murder. We haven't turn that page yet, but the bushies have been very, very busy...
Just because the Piss-stream-press has not acknowledged it, means that for sure it did! Where were you?
Is that really true?
nope
the japanese did kill many a pow...usually through forced labor
there is no evidence that i can find where they tortured than beheaded a prisoner
they needed said prisoner alive for pr purposes...ie, he tells over to his fellow prisoners the horrors of japanese torture, and they more easily sign false confessions
or else you live in a hootch, or , are drinking same...
"the Japanese never tortured than (sic) beheaded a prisoner..."
You're just kidding, right? If not you need to read more UJM.
Forced Labor another cover word for slavery
prisoner".....I have seen a picture - is in the LIFE book we have here...of an Australian serviceman about to be beheaded by a Japanese officer. The serviceman is sitting on his knees, blindfolded, with his hands cuffed in front of him. The Japanese office hold the sword behind him and is about to swing.
awful.
they gave some chablis and brie before they separated his head from his body. Ever heard of the Battan Death March Karyn?
http://b-29s-over-korea.com/Japanese_Kamikaze...
"The Japanese treatment of POWs is the most brutal ever recorded. During WWII when the crewmembers of a B-29 were captured most were beheaded immediately or beaten to death."
Ya' think any of these brave men might have been tortured, then beheaded?
There's more Karyn.
like all fucktard wingnuts
did i say that the japanese never executed prisoners?
i said they killed most in forced labor...not by execution
and you have yet to provide evidence that they tortured and then killed
god...i hate all you fucks
i really do
you are all evil shits
living in your ignorant, angry world UJM? You can call names all you want, but the bottom line is that you are one clueless dude about the events of WWII.
The only good thing is that I pissed you off, and man I just love that. Read more, then get back to me with some intelligent conversation, otherwise stay in your cave.
Over waterboarding them and then beating them to death. BTW do you have a link for your above allegation?
The link you supplied above is 'broken', similar to your logic.
US Military Intelligence School, Ft Huachuca, AZ, SERE instructor 1977-1979. Part of the course.
I don't know what the above means. Is this supposed to be you in the above?
And it actually links to a real site:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/2...
Were you one of those brave enough to capture those meddlesome priests. Did you waterboard them, too?
Very impressive.
But I guess they don't teach history any more. Try this for beginners if you want to buy the book.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Silent+Voices+O...
Read pages 58-65 here if yu can figure out how to paste a link into your browser.
http://books.google.com/books?id=WCh6_c4ufQgC...
Also, get one of the many books on the Battan Death March. read it, then tell me that US soldiers were not tortured before they were shot, beheaded...
Sorry, no more, if you don't get it, you never will.
Nope no priests, just other instructors, and we all thought we were going to die. Technique works well.
You've lowered yourself to the level of those we (most of us )loathe.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Everett+M.+Rog...
Such as this one that has been exposed
http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2153.htm#002
I think everyone should go to the link (the one in my comment, the one that actually works) above and read all about the training you received there.
Very informative indeed. Part of the article is about the suicide of one of your fellow soldiers:
Both men used the death of Alyssa Peterson, an Army specialist from Flagstaff, as a rally point for their anti-torture crusade. Her suicide was the act of a woman who could not bear the responsibility of being an interrogator in Iraq, they said.
"The Army put her in a program that taught her how to torture," Vitale said.
Both men used the death of Alyssa Peterson, an Army specialist from Flagstaff, as a rally point for their anti-torture crusade. Her suicide was the act of a woman who could not bear the responsibility of being an interrogator in Iraq, they said.
"The Army put her in a program that taught her how to torture," Vitale said.
Both men used the death of Alyssa Peterson, an Army specialist from Flagstaff, as a rally point for their anti-torture crusade. Her suicide was the act of a woman who could not bear the responsibility of being an interrogator in Iraq, they said.
"The Army put her in a program that taught her how to torture," Vitale said.
Well, it's been thirty minutes since I asked you for a real link to enlighten us further, to no avail.
I guess we can draw our own conclusions.
'Night.
That was lame. Vitale, an activist with an agenda...yeah I'll believe him...
'Night
You must be a Republican because YOU HAVE NO FACTS
Have a good night's sleep.
Ari's droopy eye is probably a result of an enormous amount of stress. Dude's sweatin'.
They let Fleischer get away with slipping a "Democrat congressmen" past them. Repugs should be called on that every time. Chris Matthews humiliates them when they do it, and I love it.
Fleischer reveals who he is when he says that torture is torture only if the bureaucrats say it is. It reminded me of when Bush mocked the idea of torture being an affront to human dignity, as though that were the most preposterous thing he'd ever heard. These repugs have no concept of right and wrong, no sense of morality.
Really! The skull and cross-bones are next!
And they absolutely choke on the word 'democratic' party. Not a very democratic bunch are they?
Behold the Talibanicans!
but he was dumbfounded at the rest of his arguments
btw, if we go by the repug arguments...then this country owes reparations to the families of the nazis that we executed
for they created the nuremberg laws, that allowed them to do everything that they did
So according to Republican logic, would the convicted Japanese have had a valid defence if they had only thought to use the argument that they learned valuable intel?
Ya, and so they may now seek atonement for that US injustice.
But i think the US got it right the first time, so that scenario won't come up, thankfully, because once everyone is all torturing again it would be a big mess.. better to prosecute as they must anyway. it's better all around for everybody to prosecute the law. It's just gonna hurt for a while.
as of this moment, the united states owns no moral highground
if the house and senate leadership knew what was going on...they should all resign and be forced to face the man
This is obvious torture.
I would consider myself a real conservative right-wing Republican with a libertarian heart. I completely agree that this behavior is obvious torture. The idiotic republican pundits like Hannity and Limbaugh are so invested in the war and supported Bush, that they cannot ever admit wrong.
I am a raving mad that the constitution and the rule of law is constantly ignored. While I don't agree about political correctness and global warming, I'll agree with lots of lefties on this one.
If government can get away with this to terrorists, before long they will start torturing and harassing law abiding civilians. Youtube the video of Pastor Steve Anderson who was brutalized by state lines troopers for failing to give up his constitutional rights.
I'm not an Obama fan. In fact i'm praying that Ron Paul runs again in 2012. He is the only honest man left in DC.
Both the Republicans and Democrats are statists. I despise both parties. Throw out the tyrants!
I'm agreeing with a Republican? A republican like Eisenhauer?? Not since Gen. Ike, have I ever found one. In case it's been deep-sixed into the memory hole, Ike said,'Beware of the Military/Industrial/Petroleum mafia.
it's called the Liberty movement.
And, in your heart, you want to make the leap because progressive you are not although you do use the self-descriptor. How many trolls have visited progressive blogs doing the same? That should be a redflag to all. Ron Paul is a racist sob accordinng to some reports.
Yep. And this is about law. Hard, cold, law that reaches internationally. They are going to have to do it for the good of the nation and the world. It's going to hurt but it's for the best.
Every word the bushies use will be intended to make it into a partisan issue - a political battle, but it isn't.
http://b-29s-over-korea.com/Japanese_Kamikaze...
"The Japanese treatment of POWs is the most brutal ever recorded. During WWII when the crewmembers of a B-29 were captured most were beheaded immediately or beaten to death."
Ya' think any of these brave men might have been tortured, then beheaded?
This is just for starters...want more...I got more Mr Afraid of the Facts!
Because you're a Repuplican. No facts, no knowledge, no military record---nothing.
You are a fraud like all your treasonous cohorts. If justice is served you'll all go to prison for the rest of your lives.
I sent an email to Washington Journal this morning mentioning that..yeah, I know I said I had quit watching it,but they actually had a whole half-hour segment on this today...
I doubt that they ever looked at it.
Doesn't matter that the repubs insist it is 'necessary, and 'saves lives'....
IT IS ILLEGAL
IT IS A CRIME
period.
but it doesn't suit their purpose or ideology to pay any attention to it.
you'd do it in a second if it was your mother...wouldn't you?
Politics is about face saving. The Republicans are hurting real bad right now, and rightly so. I'm a libertarian Republican who is completely disenfranchised with both parties for their incompetence and lack of morality.
The republicans are too invested in Bush and the war, basically the neo-con fascist racket, that they have to defend it to save what face they have left.
What really irritates me is that some people will listen to the media pundits like Hannity and Rush, and they are complete ditto-heads and shut-off their brains and just agree without thinking.
The Mississippi Supreme Court in 1926 overturned the conviction of an African-American man, ruling that he had been tortured to obtain a confession. The torture was the "water cure", now called waterboarding.
http://www.isthatlegal.org/archives/2007/11/i...
"I call on all governments to join with the United States... in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture."
-George W. Bush, 6/26/03.
Now Busch has people all torturing everywhere again, starting with him. I call an emergency meeting of the DOJ to deal with the key individuals without delay before torture sweeps across the globe. Before nations demand reparations. Stupid, stupid BuschCo.
Ari "Democrat Congress!"
Even on an issue as serious as torture these childish petty Rushthugliklans don't deviate from their talking points of mispronouncing "Democratic Congress".
If anyone deserves permanent minority statues it's these f*cks.
Not matter what judge or jury said it was torture Ari would be there defending Bush and Cheney and bringing up Bill Clinton. I say forget the judge and jury put Ari on the board and see what he thinks. Are you willing to do that Ari? If you don't think it's torture I don't see why not? Still waiting on Hannity to name the date and time he's going to get on the boeard.
Lying, lowlife cowards. The lot of them.
Republicans claim President Obama has more important issues facing him than torture and
seeking the truth about the past 8 years.
SO.............. Let's wrap this up and get on with our other business.
Round up all BushCo members and put them into prisons with lifetime sentences, without
having investigations or courtroom proceedings.
Saves us time and money. Justice is served, Bush Style.
All in favor raise your hands...........................
Given my opposition to the death penalty, I will be content to have the previous administration serve the remainder of their lives in prison.
Thank you for posting the correction! The truth is out there and needs to see the light of day!
But it really does make a person think, doesn't it? Pretty much the same scenario as "I, Claudius". Within the span of one generation, we went from a country that executed torturers to become a country that debates the merits of torture on mainstream TV -- with that debate heavily slanted toward the good things about torturing people.
Lot of good it did for the Republicans to take over the churches of America, eh?
...say "career, independent minded people at the DOJ" are qualified to determine what is or isn't torture while knowing full well his hero, W, dedicated his presidency to routing such people out of the DOJ.
His Left Eye is freaking me out.
Is that his "Poker Tell" that he's lying?
is indeed an indicator he is lying, and the condition is chronic.
This Iaito features the famous Higo style fittings, with Hosokawa Mon menuki which represent the sun and planets. This is a very good quality for a very reasonable price.
Blade is zinc/aluminum alloy, not to be used for cutting.
Weight 830g.
Samurai Katana
Login or Register to post comments.