Decision Day on California's Prop 8: Updated
Ed. note: We're cross-posting this insightful piece by my co-blogger at Orcinus, Sara Robinson, today on the coming Prop. 8 ruling. Sign up with The Courage Campaign to receive an email about the decision the moment it is announced.
By Sara Robinson
Tomorrow is D-Day in California: the day that the state’s Supreme Court will render its decision on the constitutionality of Proposition 8, the initiative passed last November to put an end to legal gay marriage in the state.
Nobody has a clue which way they’re likely to rule. Activists on both sides have been scrying the tea leaves and chicken bones on this ever since the court heard the case back in March, but have divined nothing. But there’s one forecast I can offer right now: if Prop 8 is overturned by the courts, the backlash from the right is likely to be far more ferocious and intense than anybody on the left reckons right now.
In recent weeks, I’ve been in discussions with some of the state’s gay leadership about how the hardcore right across the country is likely to react if Prop 8 is overturned. From their viewpoint, even a loss in the courts will only be a momentary setback. In that case, they’ll simply put the issue back on the ballot, over and over, for as long as it takes to regain their right to marry. They know (and the most recent polls support them in this) that time, demographics, and the generally tolerant culture of California are all on their side. They may or may not be able to outspend the Mormons and the Catholics; but they know for sure that they can outwait them.
For that reason, they’re not particularly worried about the right-wing reaction to a decision in their favor. In their view, victory is (sooner or later) preordained. In the long run, the anti-gay-marriage forces are fighting a losing battle. If they’re not irrelevant now, they will be soon. And so they’re not much worried about that.
But they should be.
Yes, the right wing is losing on gay rights issues. That is, very precisely, why they’re more dangerous now than they have been in the past. Their impending irrelevance is not a reason to worry less; it’s a reason to worry more. And getting Prop 8 overturned in the courts would ignite the situation, because it will hit absolutely every angry-making right-wing button there is:
1. The biggest state in the country, comprising fully 1/8 of the nation's population, will have legal gay marriage. That, right there, will be pretty much the end of the war, and they know it. The five states currently on board are worrisome, but they're small and not considered the kind of cultural juggernaut California is.
2. Overturning Prop 8 would push every button the right wing has about Godless liberals on the coasts imposing their moral values on them. “Pushing their immorality down our throats" has always been one of rural America’s major recurring complaints, particularly among evangelicals who seriously believe that God will withdraw his special blessing from America – and possibly destroy the country -- if gays can get married. (I know, I know. But they are what they are.) While the feelings about this have always run strong and deep, they’ve become much more intense since their political power began slipping away from them in 2006, and particularly since Obama took office and they lost Congress.
In this brave new world, the perverts don't even have the basic decency to feel shame about it anymore. They don't even know where to start with that. It makes them absolutely desperate with rage.
3. The fact that the deed was done by a bunch of California liberal activist judges who had to reverse the outcome of a statewide election -- an election that every conservative church in the country had at least an emotional stake in, and often a financial stake as well -- is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. They hate judges. They really hate liberal judges. They really, really hate California liberal judges, and have since Earl Warren. Having judges undo what they considered to be a major moral victory for their side could push their fury from merely seething to absolutely explosive.
So we’re left with a scenario in which their entire moral fight for the soul of the nation was lost because of nine liberal judges in California. I can't think of a narrative more guaranteed to push every hot button on the right, unless maybe one of the judges was Perez Hilton. Naw, maybe not even then.
And you can bet that right-wing True Believers across the country are going to be looking for targets to take out their frustration on. As I’ve written recently, they already think this government is not their own, and are moving into opposition to it. They really believe that the continued greatness of America is at stake, and they are the last line of defense against complete moral chaos. If this happens, God will withdraw his blessing from the US, and America will lose everything. They will not let that happen. Passing a gay marriage law in California -- the biggest and most influential state of all -- will be their Harper's Ferry, their Pearl Harbor. After that -- the deluge.
That's why a positive decision for California’s gay community could create considerable negative -- and potentially violent -- blowback throughout the nation. Since they can't get at California’s judges, they may decide to strike out at local gays, gay-owned businesses, gay bars, and their own local judiciary, wherever they happen to be. If I were associated with any of these things in a conservative patch of the country, I'd be spending today thinking through some serious security precautions.
In the worst case, this decision could become the catalyst for a new round of large-scale domestic terrorism from the right. As I've noted, everything I'm seeing points to a subculture that is gearing up for this kind of heroic last stand in defense of a lost cause. And this time, it's not going to be just a few white supremacist/militia/patriot/anti-choice wackos. The new crop of right wing militants is better connected, better trained, better armed, and absolutely determined to go down fighting. And, as the SPLC keeps telling us, there may considerably more people motivated to support them than there have been in the past. It’s not unthinkable that between 15 and 20% of the country could be inclined to start -- or at least support -- a civil war over this.
It’s a sad irony that the best possible outcome for America’s gay movement could also turn out to be the tipping point for the biggest anti-gay, anti-liberal backlash we’ve seen yet. Tomorrow, we’ll know one way or another which way this will go – and whether a new court-ordered opportunity for America's gay community could also turn out to be a potent new source of danger from the right as well.
Update I: Some readers have suggested that I didn't make one important point clearly enough, to wit: I'm much more worried about violence in the hinterlands than I am about reactions in California. In state, the conversation is being had openly, and people are working both sides of the issue directly.
But imagine you're a conservative living in, say, Arkansas. Imagine your working-class church raised a couple thousand dollars to promote Prop 8, and invested a lot of emotional energy in passing it, and celebrated it as a major moral victory when it succeeded. Imagine your preacher telling you that this is the Last Stand, because if California goes, the war is over and you've lost and God is going to smite America because you failed to stop Satan in time. And then imagine how you feel -- and what you might do -- when a bunch of liberal judges snatch that huge cultural victory right out of your hands.
Or imagine that you're a wacko loner like the guy in Knoxville, who spends his days listening to Sean Hannity and believes that if the government won't keep gays in their place, it's now up to you. Or you're a guy who's recently back from the sandbox, where you got some pretty strong religion along with a whole bunch of cool commando skills and a taste for blood. So you go shoot up the local florist shop, or gay bar, or UCC congregation, in order to do your part to save America.
It's not the people in LA who worry me. They've got each other, and the cops are looking out for them. I'm worried about the people in the great Out There who are going to feel a very personal stake in this, and who are already primed to see this as the End of the World, and yet who have no legitimate standing in California's conversation either way. And I feel a certain urgency to get the heads-up to gay people who are living in these same small towns, and get them ready for the possibility that they're about to become the most handy targets for a hot, terrifying wave of right-wing frustration.
Commenter Cyrano put it another way:
The conservatives got burned bad in the 2008 elections. Their one saving grace was their Prop 8 victory; it was like aloe on their wounds.
For them, Prop 8 affirmed that (i) the right-wing populist spirit can triumph, even in a blue state, (ii) the silent majority is on board with homophobia, and (iii) the liberals shot themselves in the foot by appealing to African-American voters who are religious and who do not like gays (haw haw, stupid liberals).
None of those things are true, but that's immaterial. The point is, it was a huge symbolic victory that let them assuage their wounded pride and crow at their enemies. To take it from them - and to do it using the courts - is going to drive them absolutely bonkers.
Can I get an amen?
Update II: The scuttlebutt on the activist lists is that the court will probably reaffirm the existing marriages, but refuse to allow new ones, effectively allowing Prop 8 to stand.
Fortunately, the polls suggest that if it went back to the ballot next year, there's a good chance a reversal would probably pass. A lot of Californians who stood on the sidelines are feeling embarrassed into action; and the African-American community in particular is realizing that if the voters can strip away gay civil rights with a wave of a ballot marker, they can strip away racial equality rights in exactly the same way -- and that's a situation that ought to make them very nervous. And then there are simply those who resent the idea that the Mormons and Catholics are imposing their values on the state, and using money raised from all over the country to do it.
So there's been considerable progress in the last six months, as people have done some more thinking on the issue, and the No on 8 organizations have continued their educational and outreach efforts. They're in this for the long haul: even if they lose tomorrow, I'd bet on them to win it in the end.
I thought one could get busted for propositioning.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
it's amazing...
the reichwingnuttia christians must never
have read their bibles.....
quote
"god loves everyone"
christians fucking hate everyone
"god is forgiveness"
christians are racists, bigots and homophobes
"god is accepting"
christians are fucking exclusive lowlifes
just my opinion
you weren't tarring all Christians with the same brush.
Falwell and his ilk do not speak for most Christians, of whom there are more than two billion around the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WBwOAK8unQ
Funny thing is it's Christians-cum-lately Protestant churches who view more ancient Christians churches as cults, be they Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Coptic, Jerusalem, Abyssinian etc.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
i speak of the evangelists, cultists and other
corporate bastard religious groups in this country
who have rewritten the bible in their image.
true people of faith don't choke their narrow
beliefs on others but practive privately.
"show christians" are full of Sh*t.
Then you would be right.
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
left loves painting Christians as racists when the fact is Christianity is world wide and not exclusive to any race. Looking at the list below how could anyone justify this claim?
Largest Christian Populations in the World
1 United States 189,983,000
2 Brazil 170,405,000
3 Mexico 96,614,000
4 China 86,801,000
5 Philippines 72,225,000
6 Germany 60,712,000
7 Nigeria 54,012,000
8 Italy 47,704,000
9 France 45,505,000
10 Congo, Democratic Republic
are homophobes, are intolerant, are bigots. No one says that they're like that everywhere, but many are here. Many aren't, too, but they haven't gotten vocal enough to neutralize the bigots, yet.
This is exactly the kind of confusion the Cultic Right hopes to sow by co-opting the word "Christian" as code for tight-assed, eliminationist fundamentalism. Now anytime the word is used, there's an uncertainty about just what the speaker means. Is it the large number of people who fall under the general umbrella term "Christian" (billions, including many different sects) or is it the much smaller number of people who jam themselves into the category of literalist interpretation, heretical politicization, and social blinkeredness that is American-style fundamentalism?
It's important to make the distinction when you're talking about "Christians", because really, they are not the same thing, not by a long way. It's to the detriment of the left and/or the agnostics/atheists that they often don't bother to make the distinction, and so throw their arguments onto the track of stereotypical thinking. Sloppy move.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
I know of no Christian community where your bile would be tolerated. When is the last time you went to a Christain church and actually heard or saw hate being taught or tolerated?
Your ugly simplistic rant is just as ignorant as "all gays just want to rape our kids turn them into fags"
I used to Catholic, while I was in confirmation classes, I heard a fair degree of "they're going to Hell" sort of hate against gays, Protestants and other groups the Vatican didn't like. So there is your example of a Christian community where hate was being taught and tolerated.
And don't give me any of that "Catholics aren't Christian" crap.
Oh, they're reading their Bible, all right. They just seem to prefer the genocidal malevolent warmongering asshole God of the Old Testament over the "kindler, gentler" (not really) God of the New Testament and that dirty hippie Jesus...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZcCUGzzC1U
And, just as nothing happens in a vacuum, this is part of a larger picture, which includes the terror-fest being promoted by Cheney & Newt & Rush.
I am not just concerned about domestic terrorism. I do not think it beyond Cheney and those who support his dream of American Right-Wing Supremacy to stage a terrorist attack in this country. Which could set off a cascade of domestic violence in order to remove Obama, one way or another.
These people are sociopaths, and when a sociopath feels threatened. there is nothing more important than forcing thier way on everyone else, at any cost. This is the mentality of "destroying the village to save it".
My neighbor's 22 yr old son just deployed to Afghanistan, but before he left he went to buy guns because he is convinced, and this is going thru the Army ranks right now, he is convinced that Obama intends to take away the right to bear arms.
Never mind his ignorance of the Constitution or the steps needed to repeal an amendment, the point is that gun sales have soared across the country because of this fear, and these are not the people I would want heavily armed.
We are not out of the woods yet, by any means.
We have to prosecute the previous administration for their crimes, because, if we don't marginalize them and educate the public on just how serious their crimes were, they will use and manipulate exactly the people that would do these kinds of domestic terrorist attacks.
"Yes, the right wing is losing on gay rights issues. That is, very precisely, why they’re more dangerous now than they have been in the past."
How very true. These people are, in substantial numbers, equipped with a hair trigger to do violence. The left has a few like that, but we often are too stoned to find our guns until it is too late. Remember the Spanish Civil War and make sure you have a gun, ammo, a fire extinguisher, a loud dog, and a good lock on the door.
Gun--check
Ammo--check
fire extinguisher--check
loud dog--check
good lock on door--check
I'm all set.
For all you "Aw, that'll never happen" optimistic liberals, think again. JD Bishop5 is right. Those Christo-fascists will go ape shit if Prop 8 is struck down. They are driven by an apocalyptic ideology that most progressive people don't understand. I understand it, because I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home. I left 23 years ago and haven't looked back.
"Remember the Spanish Civil War"--how true!
hey van...so what do u actually think will happen if prob 8 gets overturned? - which i hope it does. i dont think all the "right wing fully strapped krazies" r gonna come gunning for all liberals...do u? u think beck is gonna command them to attack san francisco? what about the other states that have legal gay marriage...i havent heard of a civil war being acted out in those states...just curious what u really think? peace - d
i dont think all the "right wing fully strapped krazies" r gonna come gunning for all liberals...do u?
Yep.
And they called me a drama queen for being worried about North Korea and Iran's nuclear programs. Chill out bro in this day and age I am sure the "civil war" will be televised so you will have plenty of time to lock and load and ready your guard dog. Save your fire extinguisher for the leftist eviro-fools that seem to have a fondness for burning down peoples houses.
are you always a knucklehead.
I haven't heard from Palin in at least 5 days. What's going on with that? Family emergency, another pregnancy or maybe just doing her job as governor? This just isn't like her when we get all these big names in the news like Ridge and Powell. Usually she wont be out done and say something stupid.
is intended to be a factual statement
Apparently so, since he's against gay marriage.
It's called having you're own opinion. Unlike the right, the left doesn't walk in lockstep with the fundamentalist. That's the difference between the two parties. The left can disagree and have an opinion. If the right disagrees they have to apologize days later to Rush. the left's brain is controlled by hundreds of people. the right's brain is controlled by Rush. It's a crazy concept to think for yourself but people on the left actually do it.
is intended to be a factual statement
Rush has led them as far right as it is possible to go. Up against the right wing wall, they must march in single file. With no room between them, if they get out of step, they'll kick each other's butts.
Can't wait for the day it finally happens.
Right wing circular firing squads?
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
the disintegrating state of world affairs.
and I've known homophobic violence all my life -- both threatented and delivered.
How many gay and lesbian teenagers are being beaten up by their parents, even as I post? How many have killed themsleves because their parents told them they had no right to live? How many have been murdered by them? And that's just "immediate family." For far too many GLBT citizens just walking to the store for groceries is worse than a trip through the DMZ at the height of the Vietnam war.
The early years of the AIDS epidemic were nothing more and nothing less than passive genocide on a massive scale. I lost 3/4's of the people who've meant the most of me in this life. It's like John Garfielfd's last line in "Body and Soul" (written by the late, great Abraham Polansky) "What are you gonna do? Kille me? Everybody dies!"
God loves you.
"God love you,
The rest of us think you're a jerk."
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...but he can't stand you.
(h/t the Austin Lounge Lizards)
Oh, they tell me Jesus loves me
But I fear he must love in vain.
- Catherine Madsen
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
WHO has no beginning and no end
and WHO is called I AM...
is terribly worried about the proper use of yer weewee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8TRoMSG-5I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKZcLEY2qEY
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
The Alpha and the Omega,
But not the Alpha Beta
That was already taken by a chain of grocery stores.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
to the rescue
******PALIN******
Babies--Guns--Jesus
Super Mecha Death Christ 2000 BC Ver. 3.0 BETA?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYaOpdzHNA8&fe...
I'm impressed, you actually used the word scrying
Is that how one cries with a lisp?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I don't think it's correct that we don't know which way this is going to go.
Unfortunately, those liveblogging the Supreme Court hearing that day came away feeling that the Court wanted to hear something that was persuasive enough to overrule on how Californians voted and did not get it.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a terrible law and should be overthrown, but when Joyce Kennard (arguably the most liberal justice on the Court) does not appear persuaded, I think it's best to be prepared for the worst:
.
The only issue that the Court appeared to positive about was allowing those same sex marriages performed during the time between the last ruling and Prop 8 stand.
We're not done fighting, and the Courage Campaign will have rallies up and down the state.
The fact that Proposition 8 passed means that, for the moment at least, there are more committed opponents of same sex marriage than there are supporters. Both groups, of course, are dwarfed by the majority that could not be bothered to vote on the issue.
From your description of Justice Kennard's comments, it sounds like the court is more concerned with equality of substantial rights (which are appurtenances of the status of being married) and less concerned with nomenclature. This could lead to a finding that, so long as same sex couples enjoy the same rights as heterosexual married couples, their rights were not being infringed just because they are denied use of the terminology of marriage.
Just speculation on my part, I admit.
How comforting....
for the record. It was never a fair fight.
Its rare when I get together with my gay friends and strategize every sunday like the prigs do in the LDS and catholic churches.
I would rather just speak the truth. 16 years and counting for me and my partner. friends and family laugh....sisters, cousins, brothers, etc.. have all been married, divorced, and remarried in that same time.
Yet we soldier on.
And we never needed a stamp of approval from the state. I wish my gay brothers and sisters would stop trying to be like the breeders.
Its not like they're all that happy.
I am! But then again, I support gay marriage and am not a homophobe.
I think I might be a mormonphobe though? That Romney wanker gives me the heebee geebees! How can somebody stand in 40 mph winds, and not have their hair messed up? What the hell is that all about? He must of sold his soul?
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
Aqua Net, my friend. Tons and tons of Aqua Net.
single-handedly! :(
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
and you don't have them. That's a screw job, by any name.
Ought to by a few guns themselves. No one is going to be able to get the loonies on the right to disarm, but if others are armed, then at least something of a stalemate could be maintained. And besides, don't want to be the person with a penknife at the shooting rampage.
I don't think anything too out of hand will occur if Prop 8:1 of the Book of Intolerance is thrown out the window, but then again I didn't think some right-wing loony would shoot up some cops cause he thought Obama was going to take his guns away.(by the way, way to jackass, give the anti-gun crowed yet more "ammunition")
Yep.
www.liberalswithguns.com
www.theliberalgunclub.com
just don't buy up all our ammo
You deserve a turd sandwich.
It does not scare or even bother me at all to see the liberal left arming themselves. I see it as fellow American brothers and sisters exercising rights. I disagree with much of what the left supports but feel kinship as countrymen. I do however wonder why it scares the left so bad to see the right doing the same.
you've missed the right wing nutbags shooting up the general populace, lately.
He was incredibly well-prepared and the prop-8 opponents' lawyers were remarkably unprepared. If prop-8 wins, it'll be because they other side had a better lawyer who actually cared enough to prepare for his oral arguments.
probably hired those lawyers.
Too bad Alberto Gonzales didn't take Ken Starr's place.
They made the wrong argument - that it should be overturned because it was unfair - instead of appealing to the actual constitutional amendment provisions. Unfortunately, I don't think it would have made any difference. The California death penalty case from the 70's was almost identical - the court had ruled that the death penalty conflicted with fundamental rights in the state constitution, and a majority referendum amendment was approved to restore it. In that case they also ruled it was an amendment, not a revision. It seems pretty clear to me that the difference is that an amendment means adding something that wasn't specified before, whereas a revision (requiring a supermajority) involves overturning something that's already in the constitution. But it means there's already a precedent, so it's hard to go against that.
Ken Starr, still fighting blowjobs in court. What a useless asshole!
Maybe if he got a room with Larry Craig for an hour or two, this idiot might relax a little - and give up being the sex police.
You have to wonder about what kind of sick, twisted upbringing this doofus had.
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
LOL TOO FUNNY.... if the anti-gay conservatives OF CALIFORNIA and all the SOCCER MOMS think --> this is sooooo much more important than the ECONOMY OF THIS GOP GOVERNATOR RUN STATE.... they will understand one day when their VERY STRAIGHT BUT UNEDUCATED.... NON-GAY BUT UNABLE TO AFFORD A HOME.... HETRO YET TAXED TO DEATH... children grow up and discover, perhaps, THAT THEY ARE GAY, CANT GET MARRIED, AND STILL HAVE ALL THE OTHER PROBLEMS. GO-FORNIA GO-FORNIA GO-FORNIA !!!!
There's a lot of talk. But there's a major difference between talking about how you can 'take the country back', and the sudden realization that, "Damn, some o' them damn libruls got guns too. They shoot back!".
And there's a lot of faux-conservatives that just aren't prepared for that. Rush Limbaugh talks a good game, but fight?
Right.
His $400,000,000 contract constitutes a *lot* of investment in the status quo.
I got a bunch of union democrats in my family who live in Pa, MI, & Ohio, and they could shoot it out with the best of them.
They all served in the military too. So I'm sure they would be real cool under fire. The wingnuts most definitely would not want to mess with them.
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
get to the heart of this thing.
From the piece:
They really believe that the continued
greatnesswhiteness of America is at stake, and they are the last line of defense against complete moral chaos.You are right. Those that think that way are very dangerous. Not so much because of their numbers or ability but their sheer lunacy and what they might luck up and do.
Their hatred knows no bounds.
Geez, it almost sounds like David Neiwert wants us to lose tomorrow.
It's not really Dave's post. It's Sara Robinson's.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Correction:
Geez, it almost sounds like Sara Robinson wants us to lose tomorrow.
Earlier today I watched my taping of Religion & Ethics Newsweekly (which aired yesterday), and one segment dealt on the aftermath of Prop 8 within the Mormon church. Should be very interesting to some of you. It seems that their intolerance is coming back to bite them in the butt in their relationships to one another. There actually are Mormons who support gay marriage, and who've felt very alienated by their churches pushing Prop 8 from the pulpit, and there are those who toe the line and are furious that any Mormon could be for gay marriage and think those who support marriage equality ought to be excommunicated.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
ROFLMAO! I would love to be a fly on the wall at that congregational meeting.
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
coming to them (the bigots in the church, anyway, not the ones who voted no).
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
tomorrow.
I'm feeling pretty pessimisstic right now. I heard that Gavin Newsom petitioned the court not give the ruling the other day because it was on the annivesary of the sentencing of Harvey Milk's murderer, and Newsom had reason to believe the GLBT community and its supporters aren't going to get a favorable ruling...
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
Lets not get carried away. Doomsday rants from the left are no better than their counterparts from the right.
Then why do you let them? Where is the Christian leader to denounce them?
Pardon me, but I do not see any Christian leader with any sizable following standing up saying that they are wrong and do not speak for the rest of us.
It wasn't mentioned in any of the four churchs I attend, and the ruling will not be mentioned either. We go to church to worship God and praise our Lord and Savior. Then we learn how we can have a closer and more meaningful walk with God. Then we go home. Sorry to disappoint so many of you, but hating gays just doesn't fit into the service.
and my brother's church.
Unfortunately for you guys, YOUR RELIGION HAS BEEN HIJACKED by the ultra self righteous, and they are all making the rest of you look awful.
There are those who accept and those who castigate. The castigators who fervently smash queer folk are much much louder than the accepting Christians. Why aren't you getting just as loud? If your group truly is against this and think that this is NOT Jesus's message, why are you sitting by and not speaking up JUST as loudly? According to every Christian who tells me the queer haters are in the minority, thay are the only ones that get traction.
Where was the Christian organisation that campaigned AGAINST Prop 8?
*crickets chirping*
uh huh. I thought so.
me-oww!
All six Episcopal diocesan bishops in Ca opposed Prop 8. The All Saints Church in Pasadena opposed it as well. Unfortunately they don't have the kind of clout that the Catholics and Mormons have to throw around.
Conservatives claim that gay rights aren't a civil rights issue because "homosexuality is a choice".
Oh, I see: well, leaving aside whether homosexuality or homosexual behavior is voluntary or not, let's assume that they're correct, and that any voluntary behavior can't count as a civil right. In that case, I propose the severe curtailing of a particular set of rights that all correspond to entirely voluntary behavior:
Religion.
Christians, for example, are relentless in insisting that their religion is not brainwashing; that it's a "choice" one makes to follow Christ at every moment. Well, then it that case, it doesn't deserve protection, does it? If religion is voluntary, then it, like gay rights, can clearly be freely smeared and denigrated! Right?
are either bi and actually decided to shut down part of their sexuality or are very gay and got married and had kids. So they did have a 'choice,' I guess, but it was made under duress.
I know I was born hetero, and not bi and not gay. It never occurred to me that people have a 'choice.' I don't.
me-oww!
I don't see how it can be.
I just want to ask some of these guys who think it's a choice. "OK do you chose not to get a boner looking at a naked guy in good shape, or does a physicaly fit naked guy just not turn you on?"
I've seen a lot of porn when I was a teenager. Looking at the guy never turned me on, but looking at the woman did.
When is the last time any of you folks went to a Christian Church and really heard hate toward gays taught, preached or tolerated? Because of my job, I attend several churches in several towns, and people, I just don't hear it. BTW, it wasn't Christians who had enough votes for this. In my opinion, it was agnostics and racial minorities who fear gay marriage the most. You folks can debate why this is so. There is a lot more fear and hatred being drummed up on this forum than I have ever, ever heard in a Christian Church. If you care what the main stream Christian Church really has to say, google Andy Stanley at northpoint.org. You'll go crazy trying to find him preaching, teaching or tolerating hate, because it just isn't there. Just because Jerry Falwell of Pat Robertson said something stupid 25 years ago is no reason to fault the teachings of Jesus Christ or slam all hundreds of millions ofChristians because the the words or acts of a few. Gay people should understand this way more then they seem to.
BTW, please do not hold your breath waiting for the "right-wing Christian" haters to arm themselves and start a revelution. Good grief!
of your faith, but really, if you blindly stick up for the people who have hijacked your religion and are using it as a cudgel on the rest of the world, we all will continue to have this problem.
The Church of Christ, LDS, was a major backer of the bill. Using the words 'of Christ' in their name, indicated to me that they consider themselves to be 'Christian.'
As for your theory about 'agnostics and racial minorities' I will assume, judging from your conclusion, that you know none of either group. Really. Agnostics don't give a shit who marries who, as long as they're consenting adults. I know that's a blanket statement, and there are certainly SOME agnostics that are against, but since the whole objection to gay marriage stems from religious bullshit and a fucked up interpretation of the Book, your accusation against agnostics is very silly. It wasn't a group of agnostics who got the money for this bill. It was people who call themselves 'Christian.'
As for your finger pointing at minorities: "Hello White Man!" That's right. It's GOT to be the fault of some bastard minorities. You wanna know something, Saltine, minorities are too busy dodging the (White) Man to be sticking their noses under someone's bedcovers. Again, I realise some people who belong to minority groups have the same fascination over the sex practices of strangers, I'll assume it's over exposure to the culture who thinks gay is akin to evil. But it wasn't a group of well organised minority groups that rallied 'round this cause; It was Christians.
Which naturally brings it back to your Christian people.
If you find their activities repulsive (you ARE trying to distance yourself here), do something about it, instead of denying the truth about your brethren.
me-oww!
then how did a State that has overwhelmingly elected Boxer, Fienstein and Obama also vote against gay marriage? Do Christian homophobes really run this State? Whatever.
As a Christian, I especially know my sins are no better or worse than anyone else's. Personally, I'm much more concerned about my own failings and struggles than I am about other's. My point was that if there was some special Christian conspiracy against gays, and I am in the middle of Christianity in California, why didn't I see it or hear it in any of the churches I attend? BTW, please do not assume anything about my race. The fact is a majority of Asian, African-American and Latinos voted in favor of banning gay marriage. Tell me if I'm wrong.
I also take it that you have NOT attended any church that has singled out gays for any punishment from God.....Perhaps you only gather your opinions from TV and internet blogs. If you have a beef with the Mormon Church in Utah, take it up with them.
There was/is a hijacking of the word of Christ, and you are simply refusing to realise this, or aren't smart enough to recognise it.
You have no idea where my knowledge comes from, and your guesses are not anywhere near the mark.
Why do I need to take something up with the Mormons? I just told you what has been out there since they bankrolled it. Christians bankrolled the hate. You are the one with the Mormon beef pal. They're using YOUR GUY to promote an agenda of hate and exclusion and unequal treatment.
me-oww!
25 years ago? Are you living in the real world?
My born-again Christian parents and siblings attend church 3 to 4 times a week. They have not spoken to me in close to 18 years. Communication is a one way street (from me) and I am aware they receive my letters and cards via relatives. My father had a heart attack about a year ago but I was not allowed to visit him. (I live in Europe and a trip to America is not exactly cheap or around the corner).
My two born-again Christian daughters were married several years ago. I paid their child support and (Christian) university tuitions. I was not made aware of or invited to their weddings. Via relatives I am aware that I am a grandfather 5 times though I have never received an announcement or photo to prove it nor know what they look like or where they live or are located.
I know many others like myself that have suffered these same "gifts of the spirit" in various ways, so please my dear naive friend, I am not an exception to the rule ... I am not a born-again Christian like you so whether hate is taught or not in your churches it is well demonstrated in other cruel, horrible and very hurtful ways. Brad, no offence intended, but I really don't think you have a real grasp of the real world out there.
I know that Christ would disapprove of your family's behavior. We're overwhelmingly not like that.... I also know you would disapprove of the behavior of murderers who happen to be gay (or rapists, liars, greedy people, self rightousness, etc.).
I take no offense to your comments, I will pray for a reconciliation with you and your family.
Hey Brad,
I am a member of those "racial minorities" you speak of. Honestly, there are not enough minority voters to push a bill of this magnitude through. Also the majority of the voters in minority groups range in the 18-30 age group many of whom are more open to same sex marriages. I think the majority of the reasons why the christian faith is targeted as the driving force behind prop 8 is because quite blantantly they are. Please reference the homepage of the prop 8 group.
I certaintly agree that not all christians feel the same way as this group but a good majority do just like not all minorities who voted were as accepting of same sex marriage as others. Here is the prop 8 website in case you want it.
http://www.protectmarriage.com/
I don't follow any religion, and I voted against Prop 8. As someone who does not adhere to Abrahamic morals I simply found no reason to support it. None at all.
Give me a reason to support it that does not involve using the words "Bible", "God/Christ/Jesus" or "Children" and maybe I'll reconsider.
This decision now decided upon by the Supreme Court of California has ruled against the homosexual community and let Proposition 8 vote by the people of California stand. Presently, what may seem like a dark day for the homosexual community but on the horizon, it now seems quite clear what is obviously going to happen in 2010 or 2012 when a newly proposed proposition is once again voted upon and gay marriage in California finally passes.
The opposition will not be able to return this future vote to the California Supreme Court and request that it be overturned when they so adamantly agreed with the courts earlier decision on the 25th of May, 2009. The California Supreme Court cannot make two separate decisions on the same argument. It’s obviously clear that the homosexual community will finally and decisively win gay-marriage in the end. It’s a win-win situation.
"All men are created equal. No matter how hard you try, you can never erase those." - Harvey Milk
Then they can take the gamble of taking it into the federal courts and up to the Supreme Court. If the US Supreme Court rules prohibitions against same-sex marriage as unconstitutional, then that's the end game for the Intolerant Ones. All bans on same sex marriages would be over turned. Game Over, 0 Continues. It would take a Constitutional Amendment to overturn such a decisions.
Christian fascism and hate won the day.
how did a State that has overwhelmingly elected Boxer, Fienstein and Obama also vote against gay marriage? Do Christian homophobes really run this State?
How do the elections of Boxer, Fienstein and Obama somehow mean that there are no Christian homophobes in California?
OK so same sex marriage is illegal. It is illegal to make a decision of union with another person because of their sex. It should then be illegal to choose a religion, or to choose a school, or even choose a home. These are all choices of an individual that has no harm on any other person. These are choices made by a person who is trying to make the best decision to further their life and find happiness. If we are already choosing for two adults who they can fall in love with and create a union with then why should we even allow any kind of choices to be made? Should we then break all marriage vows and instead vote on who should be with who? Should interracial marriages be outlawed now too because kids from this union may face identity issues later on in life or face discrimination from both the African American and Caucasian communities?
This "great" nation is taking great measure to take a step backwards against the basis of its independence. How great is a nation that sought out independence due to oppression of choices when it oppresses similar choices of its people.
I say ban christianity along with same sex marriage. Christianity has long been controversial anyways the same way same sex marriage is today. More wars have been fought because of christian crusades in history than anything else thus making it dangerous to all. Any person of christian faith should be forced to believe in something else to ensure the safety of others. Of course, this is as ridiculous and ludicrous as banning same sex marriage yet I'm sure there would be more uproar because of it since there is so many more christians than gays or lesbians.
As a married couple my spouse and I, both of whom are 100% straight, find prop 8 to be the start of a long list of prejudism against minorities yet to come. I am saddened to see all the hard work of the Civil Rights Movement come to a waste and am disgusted with California citizens for their decision in this matter. To vote is to make a choice, using this choice to take away another person's ability to make a choice because they are different is plainly and blatantly unconstitutional, morally unfair, and an abuse of that right to vote.
I'm a California citizen, and I find Prop 8:1 to be as repugnant as the next civilized person. I type it our as Prop 8:1 to mimic the format of Bible passages.
Prop 8:1 is a damn embarrassment to this state. But on the bright side, at lest in the future, the same underhanded sore loser tactic can be used against the Intolerant Ones and a pro-marriage equality prop can be put on the ballot.
Well I say lets make it even more traditional. I will advocate a for a proposition to make marriage even more traditional by changing the status of the wife to that of chattel as it was before.
After all, what could be more traditional than to take marriage back to how it was when the common law of England was developing.
Marriage is not traditional enough! WIVES ARE CHATTEL, WIVES ARE CHATTEL!
Note: This was a mockery of the Intolerant Ones mewing for traditional marriage.
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