Sean Hannity's been trying hard to come up with some fresh ideas that could help rejuvenate movement conservatism and the Republican Party. So the other night he ran a special "6 Ideas to Save America" that he thought would be a swell way to reclaim conservatism as the movement of ideas (which it never really was in the first place, but nevermind).
No. 6 was "Illegal immigration." This had to be interesting, since the Right's naked nativism in the 2008 campaign played a not-insignificant role in its outcome, and the GOP has been grappling with how to deal with the cold reality that their longtime immigrant-bashing ways have hurt their future electoral prospects considerably.
Hannity's idea: "E-verify," a system that would require employers to electronically verify the Social Security numbers of their employers, which would indeed reduce the ability of illegal immigrants to obtain jobs in the USA. He invited Alabama Sen. Jeff Sesssions, a Republican who's been pushing this plan, on to talk about it.
There's nothing wrong with E-verify, really, except:
A) It would only resolve a limited portion of the problem with our immigration system.
B) It would punch a big hole in our federal revenues, to the tune of about $17.3 billion.
C) It doesn't work, at least not yet.
Perhaps Hannity ought to read the Wall Street Journal, who called E-Verify "The Last Thing Employers Need":
Proponents tout E-Verify as a way to curb the hiring of illegal aliens. But the program is plagued by serious problems that include misidentifying U.S. citizens as not authorized for employment.
In 2007, DHS commissioned an independent study of E-Verify, which concluded that "the database used for verification is still not sufficiently up to date to meet the requirements for accurate verification." The error rate was almost 10% for foreign-born U.S. citizens. E-Verify's vulnerability to identity fraud is also problematic. A person using a valid Social Security card that doesn't belong to him would go undetected by the system. Mandating use of E-Verify could provide a nice boon to an already thriving document-fraud industry.
... The E-Verify mandate is already part of the House stimulus, and Republican Jeff Sessions of Alabama is still hoping to add it to the Senate bill before final passage.
But simply cracking down on employers isn't the answer, especially when such efforts aren't coupled with expanding the authorized work force. The best way to reduce the hiring of illegals is to put in place a guest-worker program that gives U.S. employers better access to legal foreign workers. Most U.S. employers don't have a problem with being held accountable for the workers they hire, so long as the government is providing them with the proper tools to abide by the law. E-Verify clearly doesn't meet that standard, and until it does the program ought to remain voluntary.
Illegal immigration tends to flow and ebb based on the strength of the U.S. economy. Given the recession, it's likely to decline in the short-run, and Congress might use the lull to enact some substantive policy reforms. Work-site enforcement should be part of a broader immigration debate, not something slipped into a stimulus bill to placate protectionists.
Moreover, the Congressional Budget Office estimates it will take a chunk out of federal tax revenues, because employers will simply turn to paying people under the table:
Decrease federal revenues by $17.3 billion over the 2009-2018 period. The decrease largely reflects the judgment that mandatory verification of employment eligibility through the E-Verify system would result in an increase in the number of undocumented workers being paid outside the tax system. In particular, JCT anticipates that some employers currently withholding income and employment taxes from the wages of undocumented workers and reporting these amounts to the Internal Revenue Service through the use of an Individual Tax Identification Number (ITIN) or other employee identification number would no longer withhold or report such taxes.
We might also want to think twice before proceeding with a plan proposed by Sessions, who has a history of dalliances with white nationalists and their nativist organizations. One of them, the Center for Immigration Studies, Sessions cites in the above clip (using a study that's been demonstrated to be dubious in the first place).
Back to the drawing board, fellas.
is part of the stimulus bill? Economic meltdown cured by clamping down on illegal immigration? Hahahaha.
Oh speaking of the stimulus bill:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090527/usa/us_...
So, according to themselves, approximately 15% of the stimulus cashola has been dished out, "creating or saving" 150,000 jobs. So if the entire stimulus cash is finally disbursed, at that rate, it would "create or save" around a million jobs. Where is the 2-5 million jobs this massive borrow and spend was supposed to create? $787000 per job? Is this some new Timmy Geithner economic math? Seriously people, both these parties need to be run ta hell outta Washington. They are so out of touch with reality, it is beyond pathetic now.
Fer Chrissakes - He's been in office for FOUR MONTHS!
Why isn't everything fixed?
Lets impeach the lot of em.
Or move to Canada.
Read it Mick. Look at the numbers. It doesn't matter if he's been in office 4 months or 40 years. Look at the numbers!! They add up about as well as the banks making billions profit first quarter, after being insolvent not 6 months ago. Pure unadulterated bullshit numbers. This isn't left vs right. This is bull vs truth. Wouldn't matter if it was still Bush in there, the numbers given by this administration are pure bullshit.
Canada's governor general eats seal heart
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
consumed by Obama and Biden.
this a rebuttal to ConcernedCanuck's comment?
Canadian TV rapped for Obama assassination joke
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Do you think that when a project of any sort is begun that all of the jobs just appear immediately? Let's use the solar power panel plant mentioned in the article. First, the company that's behind the project needs to find a place to build the plant. Then that party hires architects to design the plant. Then the contractors come in. There's are now a larger crew working. The panel company then hires plant management and trains them. Then when they're almost ready to open the plant, they hire and train a lot of workers.
And from the point where the project really expands from the architect to the contractor/builder, there's a need for more people to supply services- more workers at the grocery store, more at the shoe store, more at the schools. When the management arrives, they require more services. When the worker bees arrive- and there are a lot more worker bees than any other group involved- the need for services really jumps.
And most of the initial funding for the project is spent before production starts. The workers aren't getting paid from that funding, but from the gross profits on the sale of the panels.
I'd suggest you use your brain and think things out before you post, but I suspect what's in your head resembles the central nervous system of a ficus rather than a mammal.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I read on a blog on this site recently that a lot of the "green jobs" created by the so called stimulus funds are being outsourced to India especially the tech and engineering type jobs like the architect jobs you mention. Most of the new green jobs in the states are laborer positions and who does that? Illegals? I also read a recent study showing green industry kills more jobs than it creates
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/us-out...
I agree CC
It's more likely to be a geometric rate of growth.
Large projects initially start with fairly small numbers of employees, and add more as the project gets underway.
that you don't have to worry about those annoying "facts."
Palin family values: Drop the baby daddy and get a car!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/27/todd...
It wasn't the economy, the war, the lies. It was the the Schiavo joke. They scared a lot of people. They wanted smaller this, lesser that but they let the government into a family decision. They're scaring people.
is intended to be a factual statement
Maybe immigration isn't the problem. Maybe the problem is the over supply of native born assholes.
The Reptiles had the White House for 8 years and a rubber-stamp Congress for 6.
If it really was a problem the Reptiles wanted to solve they could have already solved it.
They ONLY use the Immigration Problem as a Wedge Issue.
Just like most every political problem.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Wall Street ballouts arent the problem. Lie based trillion dollar wars at tax payer expense for big oil and Halliburton's profits aren't the problem, The worst recession since the Great Depression isn't the problem, American blue chip companies like GM and Chrysler going bankrupt isn't the problem. Massive job losses and home foreclosures aren't the problem. Levee breaches, northeast blackouts, midwest bridge collapses and ifailing infrasctruture isn't the problem. A tax system that shifts the burden away from the rich to the middle class is not the problem. Wiretaps, torture and a trampled Constitution not a problem. Politicizing of the justice department and the outing of a covert CIA agent working to keep America safe from the real WMD's not a problem. 911 and the Katrina response that happen on Republican watch was not the problem.
Poor brown people coming across the border to find work and gay Americans wanting to get married? Major problem!!!
The mexicans at my work all have fake social security cards with matching addresses. E verify can't do anything about that. E verify is too little too late.
you mean counterfit? So the numbers are not real numbers in the SS Admins data base? Would a e check not kick those out? If I understood your meaning of fake.
he meant stolen/borrowed ss numbers.
some one somewhere will find out that his or her S.S. number is being used by somebody other than him or her sooner right?
but by then the person using the stolen number has left for another job or gotten a new one. At one of the places I used to work for it was funny some of what happened. There was one guy who quit because his checks started getting garnished, six months later he was back working with a new name and SS number. At least once or twice a year someone would apply with the same SS number of someone that was working their, hell one time two people came in at the same time and filled out apps with the same number.
And I am not against the E Verify, but it does have some bugs to be worked out. Which could be done while it is in use.
that was my point in a comment below. The thing is with every switched number that an illegal comes back to work with would be another citizen alerted to misuse of his or her number. instead of finding out after the damage is done which is often the case with id fruad. i would want to be alerted if someone tried to go to work using my s.s. number. I think the scenario you suggest would be a prime example.
Do you check your SS statements every year against your paystubs to see if the amount they show paid in to the system is correct?
Because unless the person using your SSN does something with it other than just get a job, that would be the only way you'd know.
well I think that would be what the e verify system would help with. Instead of waiting for an individual to by chance check to find out if some one is working with his or her S.S. number the check would happen at the time of employment.
What I am saying is for example, your are a legal citizen working in let's say Denver as an engineer and an illegal tries to get a laborer job in Houston. Would that not throw up a red flag in at which time maybe the rightful owner of the number could be notified to find out if he picked up a second job as a orange picker in another state to supplement his engineering salary.
"that would be the only way you'd know"
By your own admission the current system that only requires employers to verify on their own. Would take way too long to notice and then only by chance. It seems like the more you try to find fault with the e-system the more you expose the faults in the existing system.
The government could enforce immigration at the workplace in a New York minute.
They can spot a flea on a camel's bum from outer space. But you're telling me they can't find out who's hiring illegals?
This is a bogus accoutrement to make it appear that the GOP is doing something (and a perfect example of the BIG GOVERNMENT redundancy they continually rail against).
The GOP wants to talk tough, and not do anything. Because they know actually doing something would create a GIANT TAX on all Americans, by way of increasing labor costs and crashing the economy more.
I wish SOMEBODY would point out their idiotic hypocrisy.
you are so correct that's what this is about. i wonder if it's actually a NET liability. food costs would increase maybe people would eat less crap....less metabolic syndrome. they want us to make it a racial issue so to have intra/inter party fighting. like i said earlier, for me it's space NOT race. this is becoming a problem in other countries also FRANCE and great britain. it's just trying to bring the chinese model in the states to compete in capitalism globilization. many countries control the immigration into their country.
this i feel is better for the infrastructure. there's plenty of subsidizing to have this happen. "cheap labor" is NOT free.
Cheap labor costs us somewhere along the line:
If it's from India or China or elsewhere, it's zapping U.S. companies and jobs.
If it's from illegals within the U.S., it deflates the actual cost of our labor, from building to gardening to nannies to farming.
The question you have to ask is, who's benefitting most from the cheap labor? It's certainly not the laborers. They're simply filling the demand.
i really don't trust either party regarding this issue. personally i'm against undocumented/illegal immigration. for me it's NOT race but space. in addition to that these people are often taken advantage
of. i feel corporations/wallStreet want "cheap labor". it's had an impact on smaller businesses/labor wages. some the argument may be valid that some pay taxes but it's been pointed out to me they don't pay much as they don't make much. i know this is touchy topic but i still believe you can be a proud/healthy democrat and be for legal immigration.
...it seems these days that if you're a Dem and you don't support the amnesty/guest worker deception, you're immediately attacked, on the assumption that you're a wingnut or a racist.
I sometimes like to point out to my 'liberally-correct' friends that the jobs illegals are taking are in many cases the entry-level jobs that poor African Americans used to be able to get.
I should point out that I'm not against a guest worker program that allows foreign nationals to apply for the permit, and if approved, move to the U.S. and start work. But under no circumstances should we reward people who have broken the law by allowing them to become legal workers, and later, citizens, through some renamed amnesty program.
Just like every other nation, we have the right to decide who and how many people can come to our country and work or obtain citizenship.
Poor sick shills have nothing to say and keep trying to restate it. I still don't understand how anyone could watch it without the accompanying nausea. I would guess that before long, they will grab a hold of another teabag and this time, the public will actually know what it means. Just lose a few more thousand a day and your gop, or potentially, gob, will be right where you want it!
"The GOB, always there to hack it up for you" Approved by LSDM!
This is a real problem that deserves more attention than partisan mudslinging. I don't care if the dems or the gop slove it. Show that you really care about the problem and show it with actions and you get my vote next time! It just delutes the issue to make light of it in this manner Oldtree. you would think that an oldtree would be wise enough to know that.
I am not sure if electric verification is a solve all answer in fact I do know there is no one solve all to the illegal immigration problem. It is however a huge problem and a stress on our country that is already stressed enough. The author of this blog in my opinion would more than likely shoot down any ideal proposed on this issue. I am an employer in Texas where hiring illegal workers is just business as usual it is so common we tell jokes about it. It is great on the books to hire at less than minimum wage and then not pay payroll taxes on it only problem is it’s fucking wrong for our country and illegal. I refuse to do it. I hire Americans period. So I walk it like I talk it and believe me it would be easy to play the game and I would make more money for myself. Employers have to stop because “Work-site enforcement” is a joke. Now as far as our ABC’s (in English)
A) It would only resolve a limited portion of the problem with our immigration system. = BETTER THAN NOTHING
B) It would punch a big hole in our federal revenues, to the tune of about $17.3 billion. = OFFSET BY FAR BY RECOVERED INCOME AND PAYROLL TAXES AND THE EASE ON ALL SOCIAL SERVICES BEING ABUSED.
C) It doesn't work, at least not yet. = LET’S GET THE BUGS OUT ON THE FLY.
I am sure this will get picked apart but I would love to hear what people here think would curb illegal employment better than the e – system.
But there's nothing stopping law enforcement from enforcing the law, is there.
I've got an idea: Arrest anybody who HIRES illegals. Give them a minimum of 10 years in prison.
"Oh, but we can't do that. That would mean demonizing rich white guys. We like it much better demonizing poor Mexicans. Why can't we put them in prison and build a wall or just kill 'em?"
That's what's going on here.
Adding a little badge will do nothing more than increase profits for the tech company that supplies the badges. Which if you do some digging, you'll probably find happens to be located in the state of the Senator who cooked up that particular earmark. See? It's a win-win.
The fact remains, as you admit, if there are companies and individuals hiring illegals off the book now, how would this prevent that practice?
it would be better than nothing. It would not do much for employers paying cash admitted but it would help expose them. This is mostly the case with smaller companies. Larger companies have to pay with a check and in these cases I think it would help a lot more than some would have you believe. I don't have a problem with stiff enforcement I only hire American. How about a tax break for E-check employers? Encourage saving American jobs. You know saying demonizing Mexicans is a little like saying demonizing forgery artists or other types of criminals
in this case. The illegals know using a bad S.S. number is against the law in fact they are experts at it. They know also crossing the border in the dark of night over a fence of barbed wire is also illegal and here is where the ‘I don’t blame them because conditions are bad in their country” comes in and it is in part true. We convict Americans for shoplifting, robbery and other crimes that argument could often be made that were hungry or needy. Bamboozled I agree with you that the INS does
not do anything in the way of employer enforcement in fact I said that "work site enforcment was a joke".
How can you use a bogus social security number in the first place? Wouldn't that show up on the IRS's or Social Security's computer system?
Wouldn't an employer who's taking out Social Security dues for multiple fake social security numbers be easily found out?
And if you're paying mass numbers of employees with cash, how do you hide your income and cover all that outgoing money?
I guess the thrust of my questions is, this couldn't be so widespread without the cooperation of a lot of people at the State, Local or Federal level (maybe all three), people who know this sort of thing is going on and turn the other way, giving it the wink.
For this reason, I think your comparison of migrant workers to criminals is far off the mark. Yes, what they're doing is technically criminal. But if the official policy sanctions the behavior by ignoring it, then--by everything I've learned about human nature--it's not really illegal.
I'll give you a good example. Back in the day, you could buy beer just by saying you were 18 or using a fake ID. If you were 16, were you breaking the law? Yes. Were you a criminal? Technically, but not really. Because it was "business as usual" in your own words.
"Business as usual" means accepted behavior, not criminal behavior.
And if they can enter your driver's license number at the grocery store to get your DOB, there's certainly an easy way to check employment docs, if somebody really wanted to do something about it.
you make and I will be honest I am not sure exactly how the larger companies get around it especially with the requirement of an I-9 form from DHS that must be completed on all new hires(but I am going to find out and bring it here). It does happen widespread though. The cash would not really be a problem I don't think for small companies with a few employees and yes the people in government that know it’s going on and do nothing are a huge part of the problem. As far as the “back in the day” example I disagree that kids being kids conning a beer compares to billions of dollars and jobs being stolen from the American people. That is my point why aren’t the people who blog here pissed about it? I want something done about it how about you?
Hannity may have actually succeeded in finding somebody more batshit crazy than he is in this Sessions automaton.
How stupid are the rednecks in Alabama?
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
Besides the reasons you gave, I'll list a couple of others, in no particular order:
- It won't work against fraudulently-obtained SS numbers. To function, more ID must be presented, which information the government must have and retain in order to cross-check and confirm the SS number really is yours.
- It'll only work with employers who will actually run the checks, and the employers most likely to knowingly hire and exploit undocumented workers are the least likely to make the check. As a result, it's likely to drive those workers even further underground and leave them even more vulnerable to such exploitation.
- It of necessity establishes a legal requirement that you supply an SS number to an employer as a condition of merely applying for, not accepting, a job, a requirement which in most cases does not now exist.
- It adds to the ability of the government to gather information on private citizens, as it could thus know not only everywhere you've worked but also everywhere you've looked for work.
- It is another step toward establishing a SS number as a national identification number, a single number tracking you from birth to death.
- To pass Constitutional muster, it would have to be applied to every person applying for every job, not just for ones we imagine might attract undocumented workers. That openly encourages a slippery slope where the government would also store information on, and verify, your qualifications, licenses, education, etc.
To sum up: It won't work and it's a slippery slope toward an ever-greater ability of government to file away details of our private lives.
I don't think all of that will hold water.
-SS number as a national identification number- That is how it is already.
-It of necessity establishes a legal requirement that you supply an SS number to an employer as a condition of merely applying for, not accepting, a job, a requirement which in most cases does not now exist.- Why is it a necessity? New hires already have to file a I-9 from DHS that requires the exact info as the electronic method both would only be after employment. Only a change of the way the records are kept and checked.
- It won't work against fraudulently-obtained SS numbers. To function, more ID must be presented, which information the government must have and retain in order to cross-check and confirm the SS number really is yours - the I-9 form currently in use requires photo id to be hired.
-It'll only work with employers who will actually run the checks, and the employers most likely to knowingly hire and exploit undocumented workers are the least likely to make the check. As a result, it's likely to drive those workers even further underground and leave them even more vulnerable to such exploitation- That's the point it will require employers to check. The current method only requires the employer to to keep the I-9 form on file and we all know files can burn or disappear. Anyone not aware of the I-9 form can download it and see exactly what is required as a employer to keep in the way of personal information.
To sum it up all the things you protest are already requirements. or just not really true. Not to be disrespectful but when was the last time you were hired for a new job?
- A SS card is NOT an identification card, and legally cannot be used as such. (And if you don't believe that, try presenting just your SS card next time wants proof of identity - just because the SSN is used in a ridiculous number of places doesn't make it ID)
- In order to implement an e-verify system, ALL potential employees would have to provide an SSN before they could be hired. That means you. You can't wait until you're hired to give the information (and it's not actually needed until then), you have to prove up front that you CAN be hired. Yes, let's give out that SSN to some more people, that's a good idea.
- I'm pretty sure that an illegal alien using a fraudulently obtained SSN is quite capable of getting a photo ID to use with the I9. E-verify would do nothing to change that. The e-verify system does nothing more than confirm that the SSN is valid. It may shock you, but it's not that difficult to come up with a valid SSN. If you know what you're doing, odds are good you could make one up with no trouble, never mind stealing one. Oh, you want e-verify to confirm SSN and name? OK, we'll just stick to stealing them and making our photo ID match.
- Why do you assume that e-verify would require employers to check? They're required to document workers now, and don't conform. You think making it an electronic check would somehow magically create compliance?
And keep in mind that in order to be fair AND to be effective, an employer would have to do these checks on every employee, not just the ones they think are illegal.
Look employers are already required to "do these checks on every employee, not just the ones that are illegal" That’s what the I-9 form is. Do you get that! The thing that changes is that the already required info is put under a "background check of sort" as opposed to just being filed in a damn file cabinet.
Why do I assume employers would be "required to do the checks"? Because that's what this debate is all about here wither or not to change it from voluntary only.
Lastly if you follow the link below you can see it clearly states as part of the process the check is done “After hiring a new employee”
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuit...
if so, then watch out.
Coming from an asshole xenophobe near you!
OMG some of the things he says, I use to catch the beginning of his show just to see will he start off hating on Obama it never fails, now I don't even go to that channel. If it wasn't for this site and others, I wouldn't know what that NUT is keeping up ruckus about.
Snake oil venom milkers are wankers.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
HEY SHAWN,when r u going to get WATERBOARED. you talk shit all the time. you talk the talk But You don't walk the walk. you are a Punks-PUNK. time to do what you say. I woild bet you don't last 15 sec, you will cry like the bitch you are.
This is called news, a America Socialist Corportist and a Meally Mouth Coward. Both who would sellout their fellow american (written small as that is what they thinkof America) for a dollar and a twisted ideal.
The Closet Queen hannity wants to know why things aren't done in 4 months yet, this COWARD will NOT submitt to WATERBOARDING, and the Racist Nazi sessions offers no solutions like the Racist Nazi Committee (RNC) he only proposes problem theis guy is about as useful as a Flacid male appendage in a Whore House.
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