Hate-crimes bill's passage in House gets the right-wing lie machine whirling
By David Neiwert Friday May 01, 2009 5:45am
The nation's first real federal bias-crimes statute -- the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act -- just passed the House Wednesday, and is now on its way to the Senate:
On a vote of 249-175, the House passed and sent to the Senate a bill backed by the new Democratic White House to broaden such laws by classifying as "hate crimes" those attacks based on a victim's sexual orientation, gender identity or mental or physical disability.
The current law, enacted four decades ago, limits federal jurisdiction over hate crimes to assaults based on race, color, religion or national origin.
The bill would lift a requirement that a victim had to be attacked while engaged in a federally protected activity, like attending school, for it to be a federal hate crime.
As Ali Frick at Think Progress says, the religious right is freaking out because hate-crimes legislation has been one of their cornerstone bugaboos of the past decade, and it's about to slip out of their grasp after all these years.
That means, of course, the flagrant lies are starting to fly. Like Virginia Foxx's little "slip" in calling Matthew Shepard's murder a "hoax."
Time to call in the veteran liars, obviously. So who should we see shopping the right's favorite falsehoods about the hate-crimes bill on the teevee but the ole Newtster himself. Gingrich appeared yesterday on CSPAN's Washington Journal, flagrantly lying about the nature of the bill:
Let me share part of what I think concerns reasonable people who look at that kind of legislation. In Sweden today, it is illegal to quote from certain parts of the Bible. Literally illegal. So pastors can get put in jail for quoting from the Bible. On some college campuses, thought, you know, regulations have said to students you can’t think out loud whatever you want to say. The act of thinking it becomes a crime, the act of saying it. It’s very dangerous to go down a road that says you can’t have an honest debate about an issue, because we have now decided we’re protecting one group of people.
[Gingrich then goes on to describe the free-speech horrors in Europe and Canada because they don't have a First Amendment.]
... So I think that’s why you see people who are really worried by George Orwell’s 1984, and the very real danger that as the state starts to regulate what you are allowed to say, suddenly you could find yourself literally censored or in danger of going to jail, if you said the politically incorrect thing.
This is the No. 1 charge against the LLEHCPA: That it somehow institutes "thought crimes" or criminalizes "hate speech." It is, of course, a complete fabrication.
After all, you only need read the bill's text, where it's spelled out explicitly:
(d) Rule of Evidence- In a prosecution for an offense under this section, evidence of expression or associations of the defendant may not be introduced as substantive evidence at trial, unless the evidence specifically relates to that offense. However, nothing in this section affects the rules of evidence governing impeachment of a witness.’.
SEC. 8. RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.
Nothing in this Act, or the amendments made by this Act, shall be construed to prohibit any expressive conduct protected from legal prohibition by, or any activities protected by the Constitution.
Earlier this week, I was on a conference call with a number of groups involved in helping give this legislation its final historic push. Among them was Caroline Frederickson, Director of the ACLU's Legislative Office, who had this to say:
I am here really to address the claims by some opponents of the bill that this bill would chill free speech and chill free association. Well, we strongly disagree with that. This bill has a provision, that has been in it since 2005, that has enabled the ACLU to support this legislation, because it does protect both civil rights and free speech and association. The bill specifically blocks evidence of speech and association that are not directly related to the crime.
That means that anyone saying we have unleashed the thought police, or thought crimes, is wrong.
... This bill will have the strongest protection against the misuse of a person’s free speech that Congress has enacted in the entire federal criminal code.
Yet everywhere you turn, right-wingers' eyes are spinning in their heads at the looming prospect of the Obama Thought Police:
"In and of itself this law can be applied to speech. The nature of assault -- putting someone in fear of their safety -- what will that mean for someone preaching against homosexuality?" said Mathew Staver, founder of the Liberty Council, a law firm that works on religious freedom cases.
"It elevates homosexuality to the same protective category as race. It's all part of the radical homosexual anarchist agenda," Staver said.
Similarly, Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council was lauding Foxx for her false-witness-bearing rant about Matthew Shepard, because to the FRC, this legislation is all about "Censoring the Church and Silencing Christians."
Frick and the Think Progress crew put together a video of some of the prime moments in the House debate:
REP MICHELE BACHMANN (R-MN): I feel that this hate crime legislation could be considered the very definition of tyranny.REP. GRESHMAN BARRET (R-SC): This bill would inhibit religious freedom in our society -- a scary thought.
REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R-TX): You think a pregnant mother does not deserve the protection of a homosexual? You think a military member doesn't deserve the protection of a transvestite?
REP. STEVE KING (R-IA): I, Mr. Speaker, oppose and I defy the logic of the people that would advocate for such legislation the very idea we could divine what goes on in the heads of people when they commit crimes.
I wonder where these folks will get their meal tickets from after all the scary bills that they used to gin up the conservative donors for cash infusions with have all been passed by those scary Obama Democrats.
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We ain't Sweden.
Damn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtnMtrEB1-I
...commercials like that anymore. Damn it!
I love it
Sorry, Newt, you're lying again...
Here's the story about Sweden:
In June 2004, Swedish pastor Ake Green was arrested and sentenced to one month in prison for preaching against homosexuality in his pulpit at his church in Kalmar in 2003. Green was the first pastor prosecuted for a “hate crime” after the Swedish government added “sexual orientation” to its “hate crime” law in 2003. The public prosecutor, Kjell Yngvesson, justified the arrest by saying, “Collecting Bible [verses] on this topic as he does makes this hate speech.” An appeals court threw out the case in February 2004, saying that offering an interpretation of the Bible and urging others to follow it is not illegal.
After Sweden’s chief prosecutor, Fredrik Wersaell, appealed the verdict, the Swedish Supreme Court agreed to review Green’s acquittal. The case was heard on November 9, 2005, and the court ruled unanimously on November 29 to dismiss the charges against the 64-year-old cleric. “We can only hope this will deter other attempts to censor Christian ministers from delivering Bible-based messages against harmful homosexual conduct,” Benjamin Bull, an Alliance Defense Fund attorney who assisted with the defense, said in a press release. “Ake Green is a hero, and we are grateful for his stand and his perseverance.”
Underlining the case’s importance, Swedish television carried live audio broadcasts of the hearing. According to the Associated Press, Green said that his sermon was “meant to warn gays that their lifestyle will result in an ‘eternal divorce’ from God.”
Benjamin Bull... I love it. Thanks for reporting the story in full... For NG, however, the truth is not a priority... mentioning Sweden is, for the rubes and booboisie that condenses its political attacks into single words. That way they don't have to read anything.
This man has been proven to be a liar. Why is he allowed to lie each day that rolls around?
..in order to fairly represent people who believe his BS.
I am so tired of these very stupid people. Why do they hate America so much?
it's that they care only about themselves; loving or hating America has absolutely nothing to do with it.
or what it is supposed to stand for.
Also they are maybe what some would call "not smart".
I could walk around yelling racial slurs all i want - and I'm sure many do - and it wouldn't be a hate crime. mainly cause the key part of a hate crime is the crime - not the hate.
But if i went and started beating on someone ( a crime in itself - assault) and yelled racial or derogatory slurs, the simple assault would then be elevated into a hate crime - as now my motivation for beating on said person would appear to be driven by a prejudices or hatred.
And that seems to be the fact they (rebubs) either; cant grasp, chose to ignore and/or distort in order to rally their base and scare people onto their side.
they know racist exist - and these people didn't/wouldn't vote for Obama or another person of; color, particular religion, gender or ethnicity because of these things and not disagreements on policy. Thus they will try and get these types of people (racist) to vote for them.
However what they are coming to realize (Arlen Specter) or they will after the next mid term is - these types of people making up less and less of the population with every passing generation / year. And at the same time they are becoming more and more radical. so when they say things to woo these radical racist who make up a small fringe / percentage of the electorate they are decreasing their chances to win over more reasonable people. The Republican party for the most part has let their obsession with social issues drive them to the brink of extinction, mainly because they have to taking up positions that please a completely un-American portion of our country.
Canada has had it's share of haters as well as any still-developing country, such as the U.S.
The trick is to think for oneself and to just block out the sheer noise which folks like Newt can tend to emit at any opportune moment. Like a broken air-raid siren.
It's the real reason why Canadians wear earmuffs much of the year.
Spin faster Noot. Go baby, go. What a dervish.
Having grown up in Catholic schools, I can tell you that there is a secret (or not-so-secret) approval of abortion clinic bombers.
...those bastards who provide abortion services are out of the womb so the Vatican doesn't give a fuck about them.
Conservatives are against abortions because they want the fetus to grow up to be a dead soldier.
I grew up in Catholic schools, there was no such thing.
...I wouldn't doubt that with Catholic schools, the attitudes about various issues would be heavily influenced by the pastor(?) in charge of the school.
Is that a reasonable assumption?
... because one of the parish priests where I went to school was later implicated in a child molestation case.
(Which I why I'm glad I served on the traffic patrol rather than as an altar boy.)
I guess I just wasn't good enough.
One more for the FAIL column in my permanent record.
I grew up Catholic and attended Catholic schools all through my youth. I served as an altar boy, and even wanted to become a priest myself...at one time. Damn, that was close.
I never had any incident of inappropriate behavior by any clergy. I did learn of some priests from my high school who were found guilty of molesting young men at the high school level. Shameful!!
There are enough other reasons to be disgusted with the Catholic Church however. What year were the Inquisitions happening....1500's...1600's, where the Church was directly involved in torture and murder of innocent poor souls for "heracy"??
Lots of reasons to be disgusted with the behavior of the Catholic Church. This is just one more sad chapter in the history of a church run by wicked, powerful and evil men.
With Bachman, everything Obama-ish means catastrophe and damnation. She needs mental help.
And so do her constituents who re-elected her!
Is if you'd planned to commit crimes against homosexuals.
It's okay to push a measure 'recognizing the importance of Christmas and Christianity' (Rep. King), but it's not okay to protect the rights of individuals because they happen to be of a different sexual orientation?
into a Democratic Administration and rethugs are exploding in every part of the country.
Washington State just passed a new bill to make it legal for any couple to do things a married couple do, except call it a marrage. Yes, one step short of true gay marriage, but very important. The rethugs are pissing in their pants that same sex couples can have the same rights, such as visiting a partner in the hospital.
bombing clinics make as much sense as the mormons in the 1860's who raided villiges and murdered people to steel women and youg girls so the elders could have more women in bondage.
Or mormons raiding California to destroy Prop 8 (gay marriage) and costing us billions. We need to raid Salt Lake City for a little payback next election.
People understand that anything coming out of Reslugs mouths should never be taken seriously when they are just the typical LIES the big losers spew.
FUCK these stupid fucking Republican assholes!!!
Every single thing that comes down the pike that fair and GOOD for the whole of the country, these goddamn throwbacks throw a conniption fit!
Here's my ultimatum to you conservative troglodytes!
Either contribute something meaningful and positive to help this country, or SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!
I'm sick and tired of your incessant bitching! I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.
Spent the better part of the morning trolling at Foxnation.
The mindset is like a junior high schooler, caps and all.
I spoke my mind but, the whole time I was wanting to say what you said. In that manner.
It feels good to be back.
I wouldn't last more than a few seconds before I'd get banned for life.
Newt: "In Sweden it is illegal to quote from the bible. You can be put in jail"
The former may or many not be true but the latter I'd wager is just another Republican lie designed to whip up the base ignorant enough, and bedwetting enough, to be conned and scared into swallowing anything designed to get them to vote against their own best interests. Fortunately a majority of Americans have seen through conservative con games and lies.
And can we talk about the Crusades? I would imagine the bible has been used to justify more deaths and persecutions than anything the Sweeds have done against the Christians ever in their entire history of existance as a country.
the King of the Strawmen.
He's just having a problem with having his legacy being the destruction of the GOP.
He started them down the road with his Contract For America...which has not fully gestated into the Contract On The GOP.
Sweden sounds horrible!! My guess is old Newt hasn't been there otherwise he would be touting the racial homogeneity and saying "look, we need to be more like Sweden........high taxes and social services keeps everyone white"
The worst thing to come out of Sweden was ABBA. That's about it.
...the Swedish Bikini Team (see above link) whether or not they are actually Swedish, MORE than makes up for ABBA.
Mama Mia Fernando! It's not just Dancing Queens who like Waterloo. Take a Chance, you might like them too.
Bjorn and Benny also co-wrote the musical Chess.
At least ABBA had some talent...
about honest debate. STFU newt. You're a prime example of what's wrong with America.
Gingrich / Limbaugh 2012!
no wait, party leader first.
Limbaugh / Gingrich 2012!
Members of the Bush Administration ...
... lied about the reasons for going to war, fucked the place up, and are now blaming it on Iran.
... tortured prisoners in our custody.
... broke our laws and the terms of an international treaty.
... got drunk, shot a buddy in the face and waited 17 hours to file a police report.
... groped the leader of a foreign country.
How's that Christian Thought working out for you, you dishonest pieces of filth?
YAY! I used only be a dirty ******.
you can post the word "fuck" but not the word for "a bundle of sticks."
color me dismayed.
I shudder to think what would happen if you wrote about 2 "bundles of sticks" fucking.
Or asked for a fucking cigarette using English slang.
Yesterday on a James Bond site I wrote, "Since James Bond has already had to fight a henchman named Oddjob, when is he going to have to fight a moll named Blow-job?"
The deleted the last bit.
... Pussy Galore?
Poor James - he never...um....came across Alotta Fagina.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXMF11zr1rk
In the book, they had several mob bosses involved with Auric Goldfinger, one with the name Jack Strapp.
Bond was working as Goldfinger's personal assistant.
ys, why on earth would you fight a woman who would could quite likely will give you a blow job?
Maybe she's a safecracker.
Maybe she has braces...
If atheists were pistol whipping Christians and tying them to a Wyoming fence to die the same nutters in this video would be screaming bloody murder for hate crimes legislation for "specail class" protection for Christians.
Probably not.
Instead of claiming that as a hate-crime entitling them to protection, they'll say it's a hate-crime, and they're denied the protection they never asked for, to justify their antithetical stance to such legislation.
Funny you mention Atheists. I was just thinking that they were one of the unprotected ones in the hate crimes legislation.
What if someone is killed because they lack religious beliefs? Is that a hate crime?
Can anybody think of anyone else we left out of this legislation that will have to be added in round three?
Attacking someone for having no religion would fall under the religion protection clause. So no worries, we're covered.
god, lol
What about atheist nudists?
..they wear hairnets while serving food, then I'm up with them too ;-)
They could be arrested for indecent exposure, but they're still protected from hate crimes.
How dare he suggest making hate crime illegal is Orwellian after 8 years of War is Peace from the Bush Gang?
How dare he suggest making hate crime illegal is Orwellian after 8 years of War is Peace from the Bush Gang?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb88oRGl2TI
in fact, if it hadn't been for that Apple commercial, this moron would probably still think Orwell made popcorn.
... except they completely missed the fact it is supposed to be a dystopian novel, and not an instructions manual.
In June 2004, Swedish pastor Ake Green was arrested and sentenced to one month in prison for preaching against homosexuality in his pulpit at his church in Kalmar in 2003. Green was the first pastor prosecuted for a “hate crime” after the Swedish government added “sexual orientation” to its “hate crime” law in 2003. The public prosecutor, Kjell Yngvesson, justified the arrest by saying, “Collecting Bible [verses] on this topic as he does makes this hate speech.” An appeals court threw out the case in February 2004, saying that offering an interpretation of the Bible and urging others to follow it is not illegal.
After Sweden’s chief prosecutor, Fredrik Wersaell, appealed the verdict, the Swedish Supreme Court agreed to review Green’s acquittal. The case was heard on November 9, 2005, and the court ruled unanimously on November 29 to dismiss the charges against the 64-year-old cleric.
... remarked that freedom of speech needs to be reexamined and curtailed in keeping with the terrorist threat to America.
But when it's HIS speech being curtailed, all of a sudden, it's tyrrany and fascism time, thought crime, thought crime!
... when your argument against a bill is a false. What the GOP is really doing here is trying to protect their perceived "right" to say crazy sh-t about their opponents with impunity and are afraid this bill would infringe on them and their partner organizations.
No one really believes this bill would incriminate people for thoughts and Democrats have religion, too. So saying it would imprison clergy is clear nonsense.
These kinds of arguments just make the GOP look more & more silly.
To be opposed to a hate-crimes bill and stand-up for torture really just brands them more & more as a new non-national political party for the militia movement and the absurd.
... when the 'you're taking away my faith' argument gets trotted out for show.
Really? If I make a law, you'll stop being an arsehole of a Christian fascist? That's all it takes? By all means, let's pass it!
These are the same pants-wetting ninnies who were afraid teh Islam would come here and turn us into a puppet state under Shari'a Law.
You'd think we were threatening to feed 'em to the lions.
..apologize sincerely or resign.
I think that whole list of lying obstructionist/pre-historic relics from the Dark Ages should crawl into a hole, never to be heard from again. Their HATE puts the "H" in Hate Crime!
Seams like the Hate Crime Bill will bring the level of political debate up to an adult level and that would be against everything the few Republicans that are left, stand for. Especially for Michelle Bachmann, no more "armed and dangerous" comments !! :-)
The Limbaugh-Gingrich Party? No so good. http://dailykos.com/weeklytrends And look at those numbers for Crybaby Boehner. he's about as popular as Swine flu.
Please keep Gingrich, Limbaugh, Boehner, the Teabaggers, haters and all the loudmouth FOXaganda shillfront and center and maybe Obama will hit 75%!
... when it starts being something other than whiny-baby NO-fests.
I understand the country faces problems at home and abroad. But I'm in a business where if you don't know what the fuck is going on, you get ignored. Present a solution other than NO, show that you can work with us, and you'll be treated accordingly.
"If I were President, I would get a giant electo-magnet and fly it to Planet Jupiter, then focus it on the U.S.; the electo-waves would cause us all to think "Republican" then there would be no more problems. Of coarse President Obama does not have a plan even close to mine to resolve the polarization of the U.S."
--Newt Gingrich
... Republicanism is genetic.
But it's also a modern trend - there are conservatives in my wife's family, but they're all old school - her aunts and uncles. (For a number of reasons, they think I'm conservative, which is also no end of amusement.) When I talk issues with them, I get reasoned debate, and not this drivel that passes for 'fair and balanced.'
I think I was born a progressive but was conditioned into a conservative in my formative years by my Dad. I became a Democrat in my 20's, but by the time I reached my thirties, I realized they both suck.
Is disagreeing with both sides genetic?
... sanity.
That's somewhat similar to my own story, but I've always done my own thing anyway. My Dad never changed me, and I'm not American or affiliated with any party.
Basically, I don't trust any politicians. You have to be a bit twisted to want the job.
[edit--- ooops, ooopsie, of course not in the case of John Amato. blush]
If one of your central tenets for mobilizing your base to is spread hate onto a specific group, than shit yeah, you want to protect any and all barbarians who may act on such hate. It's called protecting the base. So the Repubs are going to stretch the truth as much as possible re: the Matthew Shepard Act as a way to in fact..., mobilize the base.
It's also so interesting the the wingnuts are ok with our ACTUAL civil liberties being attacked with FISA and wiretapping, but not ok protecting it's citizens from prejudicial assaults. Gives you a clue as to who are actually trying to organize a "thought police".
These scumbag, low lifes are proving that once again, the repuke party can sink just a bit lower in order to hold on to their paranoid christian heracy.
Jesus would be so ashamed at what these cowardly butt-f*ckers are up to. Such pathetic, paranoid and twisted minds are in the hollowed halls of Congress, acting like total KKK members without the sheets.
So many from TX are totally bizarre in their logic. Time to test the water there.
for ya Newt?
.
support him in any way, shape or manner.
It's actually rather a pity the bill will NOT allow us to prosecute xtian fundamentalists. Their complete brain dead stupidity serves as its own indictment. They'd even make Jesus puke with their desire to defend the "right to hate."
Congressman King should read the current U.S. Criminal Code (or any state code since reconstruction, for that matter) if he really means what he says when he says "I defy the logic of the people that would advocate for such legislation the very idea we could divine what goes on in the heads of people when they commit crimes."
All crimes carrying a prison sentence require that the state prove "mens rea" (guilty mind) in addition to commision of the act. The question "What was the intent of the accused?" is what many criminal charges turn on. King doesn't even need to crack a book to learn that -- try an episode of Law and Order.
King is right that the question of intent is hard to answer -- but juries have been doing it for centuries.
Mens rea doesn't enter into the equation until the crime is committed. Too fine a point for them?
The Newter would do himself a big favor if he would shut up a little more if he wants to run for President. As it is he is digging himself a hole he will not be able to get out of.
Newt has been "suggesting" that he will be running for President for several election cycles. He talked about it for 2000, 2004, and 2008, and he never actually followed through. Now he's talking about it for 2012. Mark my words, he won't do it. He just says that because it gets him onto TV. He likes the attention, that's all.
...what would compel anyone to vote for a salamander?
From a guy named after a slimy amphibian?
Here is how I like to explain to people what "Hate Crime" Legislation is:
The difference between "Murder" and "Manslaughter" is determined by assessing what the person who committed the crime was thinking; did they intend to kill, or was the death due to a preventable accident. That's how the two types of crimes get distinguished, and yet, we don't call the crime of Murder a "thought" crime.
"Hate Crime" legislation is much the same. There is enhanced sentencing for such crimes, because such crimes have a larger impact on the community. The harm caused by murdering a person is not as great as the harm cause by targeting a person for murder because of their group affiliation. This latter type of crime could accurately be characterized as terrorism. It is reasonably perceived as a threat by other members of the wider community targeted by the crime. Moreover, such crimes have been shown to be more likely to lead to retaliatory violence and gang-related violence. That's why an enhanced sentencing for crimes that are targeting a specific community, especially an at risk minority, are deserved.
Well said.
well said
A lot of posters in this site, based on previous hate crime-related thread, seemed to be under the impression that crime was just the outcome... thus they could not understand the distinction based on intent. Where as crime for the justice system is the whole process, not simply the end result.
I don't think I've ever seen it explained any better.
Too bad the people that most need to understand the difference are among the least likely to ever read it.
I saw Foxx's "slip" on KO the other day and he was certainly right to blast her as massively irresponsible and demand her resignation. Imagine calling the actual events around Matthew's death a hoax with his mother present in the audience. Jesus H. Christ. The cruelty and ineptitude of these GOP political hacks knows no bounds. Of course, Newtie served his wife divorce papers on her deathbed. I guess being a self centered insensitive sociopath must be a prerequsite for membership in their twisted, deranged club.
I saw Foxx's "slip" on KO the other day and he was certainly right to blast her as massively irresponsible and demand her resignation. Imagine calling the actual events around Matthew's death a hoax with his mother present in the audience. Jesus H. Christ. The cruelty and ineptitude of these GOP political hacks knows no bounds. Of course, Newtie served his wife divorce papers on her deathbed. I guess being a self centered insensitive sociopath must be a prerequsite for membership in their twisted, deranged club.
I saw Foxx's "slip" on KO the other day and he was certainly right to blast her as massively irresponsible and demand her resignation. Imagine calling the actual events around Matthew's death a hoax with his mother present in the audience. Jesus H. Christ. The cruelty and ineptitude of these GOP political hacks knows no bounds. Of course, Newtie served his wife divorce papers on her deathbed. I guess being a self centered insensitive sociopath must be a prerequsite for membership in their twisted, deranged club.
Putting someone in fear for their safety is already against the law, whatever the reason for the perpetrator's doing it. It's called "assault." It ain't "battery" until they actually attack. The right just doesn't think it's illegal because whenever they put someone or a group of people in fear for their safety with their eliminationist rhetoric, no one even calls them on it, much less prosecutes.
Our legal system already acknowledges that we are able, to some degree, divine what is going on in the heads of criminals when they commit a crime. That's why we have first, second and third degree murder charges, not just one murder charge.
Religion is a crutch and a fairy tale. The only thing that has proven social value for society is liberalism....and more government spending!
... believe in a fairy tale, that's fine.
It's when they insist we walk with a limp and their crutch, or believe in the same magical sky beings down to the last jot and tittle that problems crop up.
Are tittles a-cup dancers?
Yes.
Your answer reminds me of one thread yesterday where someone was describing the multi-blood lines (Shadowgm?).
I said his was almost as complicated as mine: Scottish, Welsh and English.
He said it sounds like with that line-up I'd have some issues.
I responded, "Yes, quite."
German, Irish, Scottish, and a weeeeee bit o Cherokee.
I think I gotcha beat!
Whaaaaaaaa?
... which is more disturbing. That you (Tyler) are puzzled over Ys' remark ...
... or that I understood him.
Ah thanks for the much needed laugh!!!
Whenever people spoke of stereo "tweeters", I thought that should be a Hooters for the puffies partie.
I was responding to Y's remarks given the indentation of my response ;-)
Just for the record I was referring to our morning troll comment...
If people are not going to lash out at haters where are we as Americans?
...an educational training film for racists and homophobes and zealots explaining how they can express themselves without being arrested by the dreaded thought police.
"Let's review. Thinking someone is gay is not a crime. Saying you hate a man who is gay is not a crime. Saying you hate gays because of their homosexuality is not a crime. Killing a gay man IS a crime, but NOT NECESSARILY a hate-crime. Saying "I hate f@ggots, they all deserve to die," and then going out and killing a gay man CAN be interpreted as a hate crime, but is a burden on the state to prove your murder was, in fact, a hate crime. Saying "I'm gonna kill me some f@gs before they can spread their gayness on God's earth" and then killing a gay man will most certainly be interpreted as a hate crime, though once again, the burden will be on the state to prove you killed specifically because the man was gay. However, since you're now accused of murder, you should be more concerned with proving yourself NOT guilty of murder, rather then not guilty of a hate crime, because prison kinda sucks no matter why you're there. Look for part 2 in our series, Being Legally Allowed To Hate - BUT NOT KILL - Black People. Thanks for watching! And keep using your freedom of speech, so we know who the @ssh0les are!"
You're trying logic?
Holy crap. Next thing you'll be trying is explaining what sportsmanship should mean to Republicans.
They'll just stick their finger in their ears and start singing "Yankee Doodle".
Personally, I no longer pay attention to the incessant whining coming from these delegitimized loons. At best, I find the cognitive dissonance to be great comedic relief.
As a parent, I've learned to block out the background noise of whining small children.
.
R E M E M B E R:
Newt Gingrich thinks America should have been attacked...
... AGAIN!
.
his mother turned him into a newt...but he never got better.
... a carrot nose and a pointy hat.
And then we can weigh him against a bunch of ducks w/ lead weights and drown him in the pond.
VILLAGER #1: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Uh, very small rocks! ...
VILLAGER #4: Newt Gingrich!
VILLAGER #5: Churches!
VILLAGER #6: Lead!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr8DIg3oHFI
Just one thing: If NEWT (and others) keep yapping, it makes what they say a lie. Just watch in the days and weeks ahead. If the religious right, and right-wing talking heads, keep whining about this AND still aren't in jail, it makes them liars.
Can someone explain to me why the motivation for a crime should make a difference in the punishment for a crime?
I think "hate crimes" are horrible, but I don't understand why killing someone because they are gay is more heinous than killing someone for any other reason. A crime is a crime, the our justice system shouldn't care about why someone did it.
Or am I way off here?
so the holocaust or the KKK "Freedom Rides" were just plain old ordinary murder?
Now...the holocaust was murder on a mass scale...but I think you see my point.
... the courts routinely concern themselves with the intent of the perpetrator in determining the severity of the charge as well as the punishment.
And since the provision EXPANDS existing legislation, are you actually saying 'I don't understand why killing someone because they are black or Jewish is more heinous than killing someone for any other reason?'
person, pull out a gun and shoot them dead, it's a crime of passion, manslaughter.
If you catch them, let them live and PLAN a death for them (tamper with vehicle, grab a hired killer to do your work, ambush them), it's malice aforethought, first or second degree murder, depending upon the state.
Same two dead people, same result, two different motives, one, extreme emotional distress, the other, cold calculated revenge.
You can't see the difference between an accidental death, a premeditated killing, a manslaughter in self defense, or a collateral casualty?
All having the same outcome, but very very very different motivation and context.
You're way off, but then, that's just because you're behind the curve.
Here's a post that begins to answer your questions. At the end of it are links to even more detailed posts with even more explanatory information.
But motive is always an important factor, particularly in the sentencing phase of any criminal case. Motive is part of mens rea, or the "state of mind" of the perpetrator. The example I always like to use is simple: Take the cases of two elderly women smothered to death by their sons. In the case of the first, he did it at her request because she was dying a miserable death from Alzheimer's. In the case of the second, he did it because she was wealthy and he wanted his inheritance and the insurance. Two women dead, same result, but vastly different cases -- and the difference is the motive.
Concurrence also has to occur with Mens Rea and Actus Reus.
I ain't no shrink nor lawyer, but I'd swear there's some categories of mental illness, where in the abstract they understand the difference between right and wrong, but not causality, thus flipping the M'Naughten rule on it's head.
Why you do something is just as important as what you did. In terms of our criminal justice system, this is the reason we have about 6 different kinds of homicide, for example. Everything from 1st degree murder (with or without special circumstances) all the way down to something like third-degree manslaughter. The details differ from state to state, but the reason is always the same: the motives of the killer determine what kind of crime it is.
So circumstances and motives are important. Now extend that to hate crimes. Hate crimes are demonstrably worse than non-hate crimes. In general, they are more threatening and violent, and also have a severe chilling effect not just on the target, but on the target's entire community.
For example. Think of a punk tagger spray-painting graffiti on your garage door. Just a childish prank, right? But what if you're Jewish and the graffiti is a swastika? Suddenly, what was just a childish prank becomes a serious and overt threat of violence. And it affects all Jews in the area, not just you. An isolated crime against you alone would have been bad enough, but now it is *terrorism* directed at your entire group.
That is why hate crimes are more heinous than non-hate crimes. And that is why it is appropriate to legislate against them.
Sorry, Newt, it's not against the law to quote the bible. Here's the story:
The Bible becomes “hate speech” - In June 2004, Swedish pastor Ake Green was arrested and sentenced to one month in prison for preaching against homosexuality in his pulpit at his church in Kalmar in 2003. Green was the first pastor prosecuted for a “hate crime” after the Swedish government added “sexual orientation” to its “hate crime” law in 2003. The public prosecutor, Kjell Yngvesson, justified the arrest by saying, “Collecting Bible [verses] on this topic as he does makes this hate speech.” An appeals court threw out the case in February 2004, saying that offering an interpretation of the Bible and urging others to follow it is not illegal.
After Sweden’s chief prosecutor, Fredrik Wersaell, appealed the verdict, the Swedish Supreme Court agreed to review Green’s acquittal. The case was heard on November 9, 2005, and the court ruled unanimously on November 29 to dismiss the charges against the 64-year-old cleric. “We can only hope this will deter other attempts to censor Christian ministers from delivering Bible-based messages against harmful homosexual conduct,” Benjamin Bull, an Alliance Defense Fund attorney who assisted with the defense, said in a press release. “Ake Green is a hero, and we are grateful for his stand and his perseverance.”
Underlining the case’s importance, Swedish television carried live audio broadcasts of the hearing. According to the Associated Press, Green said that his sermon was “meant to warn gays that their lifestyle will result in an ‘eternal divorce’ from God.”
One of the best jokes ever.
Why would Bachmann concern herself with the concept of thinking? She could hurt herself. There is a quote in this week's issue of "The Week" from G.K. Chesterton: "Bigotry may be roughly defined as the anger of men who have no opinions." Rush Limbaugh, he who claims to inspire individualism, pay attention. Bigots, their "base." Whenever they spew some of the party-line drivel and are then asked what their point is, or who told them that, or explain what you mean, they start shrieking like lunatics and accuse Obama of wanting to take their guns away. So predictable, so ignorant, so...yawn.
Their minions are out in force somewhere, every day, burning clinics, harassing, shooting at, beating, threatening DOCTORS and their FAMILIES for performing "acts" THEY don't "agree" with. They are REALLY afraid there will now be a greater EFFORT to STOP these psychotic ABUSERS of free speech from spreading their hate any further. IT ALL HAS TO DO WITH ABORTION and the intimidation they practice against doctors who perform them and women who have them. AND, along the way they will do their best to prevent any kind of legislation to protect victims of all other hate crimes for their agenda. HATE is so DEEPLY ingrained in them, they think they're showing "tough love".
Intelligence isn't a REPUG strong point, and they can't see the difference between "thinking" bad things of others and "wishing" bad things to happen to those you don't like or approve of, and taking your own two hands and, with or without a weapon, beating that person to death or shooting or stabbing them.
But what can you expect from people who LOVE torture and depravity and PASSIONATELY defend the perpetrators of these atrocities? To them, HATE is a GOOD THING.
The right wing's moms must be SOOOOO proud. They have managed to paint themselves into a bizarro corner where they a)defend torture b)defend bigoted violence and c)defend polluting our Earth. Well, it can no longer be said that they stand for nothing; they're in favor of torturing suspects, attacking minorities & fouling the air all in the name of "freedom".
But just remember; YOU are now the minority.
Little jerk is afraid he isn't going to be able to say this kind of inanity. Does he think this is a single group? Sounds like a home-grown metal band to me.
I have to give Candace Gingrich 1000x times more props and respect than I did before.
It must be really difficult to have an asshole like him in her family, esp. where it comes to her orientation.
All you have to do is mention 'Sweden' and thats supposed to conjure up images of Communist East Berlin...for some reason.
Yeah - those Swedes, with their watches, and bloated knives, and Alps and all... Damn commies.
When did they steal the Alps from the Swiss? See, ya can't trust those damn commies.
Canada would be bashed more freely if we didn't have the largest trading partnership on the planet. $$$$$$. $1.35 billion in cross-border trade, every day. I'm sure no one wants to mess that up. Sweden is far away.
Am I missing something?
I thought this bill was for people that have been charged with committing crimes. You know, alleged criminals. Are you not still free to hate?
...is that conservatives have been deliberately blurring the line between hate crimes and "thought" crimes. They pretend that hate crimes punish what you *think* rather than what you *do*. That's why, for example, one of the big points you'll hear from them is about how churches could no longer preach against being gay if hate crime laws were passed.
Make no mistake: this is a *lie*, not a misunderstanding. They know full well that this isn't true, but they say it anyway to whip up the base.
As a Swede and part-time resident of that country I have never heard of such a ridiculous claim about Sweden. Newt pulled that out of his a**. We have all the same free speech rights as Americans(libel laws are different) plus free health care, day care, college, and one of the smallest income disparagies and thus one of the largest(by%)middleclass populations in the world.
REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R-TX): You think a pregnant mother does not deserve the protection of a homosexual? You think a military member doesn't deserve the protection of a transvestite?
What on earth is this lunatic talking about? This twit belongs on the Planet Noxo.
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