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You don't have to have been from rural Pennsylvania to have been able to predict the outcome of this case:

Some satisfied, others outraged with verdict for immigrant's death

Friends and relatives of two teens accused in the beating death of a Mexican immigrant struggled to contain their relief as not-guilty verdicts were announced on the most serious charges against the former high school football stars Friday.

Gasps filled the courtroom and some had to be restrained by sheriff's deputies as they tried to rush the defense table after Derrick Donchak, 19, and Brandon Piekarsky, 17, were acquitted of aggravated assault, reckless endangerment and ethnic intimidation for the death of Luis Ramirez.

Piekarsky was also found not guilty of third-degree murder for the death of Ramirez, who died of blunt force injuries after an encounter with the teens last summer.

As Avery Friedman argues persuasively in the video from CNN yesterday, this was a pretty clear-cut case of jury nullification: the weight of evidence against the accused was so powerful that it's clear the all-white jury -- like similar juries in the South during the Civil Rights struggle -- was not going to convict two young white men of murdering a Mexican. Even if, as Friedman says, "the only reason he is dead is because he was Mexican."

Prosecutors alleged that the teens baited the Ramirez into a fight with racial epithets, provoking an exchange of punches and kicks that ended with Ramirez convulsing in the street, foaming from the mouth. He died two days later in a hospital.

Piekarsky was accused of delivering a fatal kick to Ramirez's head after he was knocked to the ground.

As they poured out of courthouse, the teens' supporters shouted "I was right from the start" and "I'm glad the jury listened" at cameras that caught the late-night verdict.

But Gladys Limon, a spokeswoman for the Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Fund, said the jury had sent a troubling message.

"The jurors here [are] sending the message that you can brutally beat a person, without regard to their life, and get away with it, continue with your life uninterrupted," she said.

Considering some of the details of the killing, it's also inordinately clear this was a classic bias crime, with the incident instigated by racially charged taunts that made clear the victim was selected because of racial animus:

"Isn't it a little late for you guys to be out?" the boys said, according to court documents. "Get your Mexican boyfriend out of here."

... Burke recalled hearing one final, ominous threat as the teens ran. "They yelled, 'You effin bitch, tell your effin Mexican friends get the eff out of Shenandoah or you're gonna be laying effin next to him,' " she said.

That is, of course, the entire purpose of bias crimes: To hold the victim up as an example: "You're next." The purpose is to terrorize the target community, to drive them out, eliminate them.

My second book, Death on the Fourth of July: The Story of a Killing, a Trial, and Hate Crime in America, was a study of hate crimes that focused on a single case that occurred in rural Washington state in the summer of 2000, but used it to springboard to an exploration of the rural dimensions of the problem in some depth.

Specifically, it examines why rural areas are more vulnerable to bias crimes than urban or suburban regions. And a lot of it has to do with entrenched attitudes about social roles in those areas, combined with a slowness to recognize the need to enforce bias-crimes laws that's acute in rural America.

An excerpt:

Towns like Ocean Shores, whose economic health is directly tied to the sense of welcome and well-being enjoyed by its visitors—including minorities from urban centers—can be badly harmed by a hate crime. Yet, perceptions notwithstanding, is Grays Harbor genuinely a racist place?

Probably not—at least, no more so than most other rural communities whose population historically have been homogenously white. Like nearly any small town in the Northwest—or any rural town in America, for that matter—the vast majority of the residents of Ocean Shores or Aberdeen are hard-working and well-meaning people who, beyond harboring the usual garden-variety racial stereotypes, are not racist or white supremacist in any serious way. They are usually disgusted by ideological racists and want nothing to do with them. And they are bewildered at suggestions they might be a haven for bigotry.

"Our police department received I don't know how many calls wanting to know if it was safe in Ocean Shores, is it a racist town?" says Carl Payne, who wound up taking the reins of the Ocean Shores Coalition, the group devoted to dealing with the town's unwanted new image. "They [police] didn't know it was a racist town."

"We aren't," insists Joan Payne, his wife, and executive director of the city's Chamber of Commerce. "We aren't a racist community. We have young people who were looking for trouble. And . . . it found them."

But like most rural communities, the evidence of racist activity is not completely absent, at least in Grays Harbor County and the surrounding area. There is at least one proclaimed skinhead in Aberdeen who proselytizes among the local disaffected teens, though to little effect. A year before the July Fourth incident in Ocean Shores, at a retreat outside the town of Frances—about thirty miles south—a major Christian Identity gathering of about one hundred people was quietly held, with only local law enforcement aware of its presence. And in just the month before Minh Hong's trial, the nearby town of Elma was plastered with neo-Nazi fliers promising a parade down Main Street on New Year’s Day. ...

Idiosyncratic events like that are one thing. However, it is hard not to find a broader undertow of bigotry that usually lingers in the quiet places of rural communities like Grays Harbor. The few minorities who live there will tell you, privately, that racism in the town can be “bad,” and even non-minorities see the signs. At times, the air in the local coffee shop wafts with smoke and complaints about “those damned Koreans” or “the stinking Mexicans” who have become the area’s most visible minorities. Or a well-liked neighbor who’s active in civic-minded organizations will, given the right turn in the conversation, suddenly spew a string of racist obscenities that surprise even his friends.

The response to these episodes is universal: simple silence. After all, there is a mantra common to all rural communities: “This is a nice town.” People are nice to each other. If someone wants to be a racist, well, most people won’t encourage them, but they won’t speak out against it, either. They might even laugh at their nigger jokes just to go along.

Grays Harbor County is confronting a change that many other rural districts in America face: an influx of new, nonwhite faces. The bulk of these are Latino, who in the 1990 Census numbered only 1,173, or only 1.8 percent of the population, but by 2000 had grown to represent 4.8 percent of the population with 3,258 residents. (The county, which includes the Quinault Indian Reservation, has for years had a steady population of about 5 percent Native Americans.) More Asians, too, are moving in (they now constitute 1.2 percent of the population, up slightly from 2000), many of them taking over high-profile businesses like restaurants and convenience stores.

This demographic change is happening broadly across rural America, particularly in the Midwest. As a report from the Department of Agriculture's Economic Research Service points out:

Hispanics are the fastest-growing segment of the American population, and this growth is especially striking in rural America. The 2000 census shows that Hispanics accounted for only 5.5 percent of the Nation's nonmetro population, but 25 percent of nonmetro population growth during the 1990s. Many counties throughout the Midwest and Great Plains would have lost population without recent Hispanic population growth. Among nonmetro counties with high Hispanic population growth in the 1990s, the Hispanic growth rate exceeded 150 percent, compared with an average growth rate of 14 percent for non-Hispanics. Moreover, Hispanics are no longer concentrated in Texas, California, and other Southwestern States—today nearly half of all nonmetro Hispanics live outside the Southwest.

These kinds of demographic shifts, as it happens, often become the primary breeding grounds for hate crimes—even in decidedly non-rural settings. A study published by Donald Green in 1998 focused on New York City, and it found that demographic change in 140 community districts of the city between 1980 and 1990 predicted the incidence of hate crimes. The balance of whites and whatever the target group happened to be in a given community district was an important factor, but the rate at which that balance changed was perhaps even more significant. The most common statistical recipe was an area that was almost purely white in the past which experiences the sudden and noticeable immigration of some other group.

In the case of New York, what occurred was a rapid inmigration of three groups: Asians, Latinos and blacks, though in the latter case the migration was often a response to the other groups' arrival; blacks were in some ways moved around, or their neighborhood boundaries changed. A number of previously white areas—Bensonhurst being the classic case, or Howard Beach—experienced a rapid inmigration of various nonwhite groups. What was particularly revealing about the hate-crime pattern was that the crimes reflected the targets who were actually moving in—that is, they revealed that this was not a kind of generalized hatred. Where Asians moved in, the researchers found a surge in anti-Asian hate crimes, and likewise with Latinos or blacks. Bias crime has more of a kind of reality-based component, at least in the aggregate, than is implicated by those psychological theories that suggest that there only exists a generalized sense of intolerance on the part of those who practice extreme forms of bigotry.

In a later study, Green found this trend replicated itself elsewhere—namely, in Germany after the fall of the Iron Curtain in the late 1980s. In that case, there was rapid inmigration of immigrants into formerly homogeneous eastern Germany, which replicated the conditions in New York as the perfect recipe for bias crime. And indeed, there was a huge surge in hate crimes, which only slowed when the flow of immigrants was halted in the summer of 1993.

"Thinking about the kind of spatial and temporal dimensions of hate crime is a start in the right direction," says Green. "What it helps to think about is the difference between the static and the dynamic dimensions of this problem. People talk about the problem of hate crime being hate—of course, it is a problem, but hate isn't necessarily rising or falling in the society as a whole. What's changing is your proximity to people that you find onerous. And also your ability to organize or to take action against them.

"There are two hypotheses about why it is that hate crimes subside when demographic change runs its course. One hypothesis is that the haters either accept the fact changes occur to them or they move away. Another hypothesis is that nobody really changes their attitude, it's just that the capacity to organize against some outsider—meeting at the back fence and conspiring against somebody—no longer becomes possible when one of your back-fence neighbors is now no longer part of the old nostalgic group."

Green says that both suburbs and rural areas are the next frontiers for hate crimes, partly because the demographic change is beginning to hit there now, "and they will lack the political will to deal with it."

... Most significantly, this phenomenon in fact reflects the perceptions many minorities have of small, rural towns: that they are not safe for people of color or for gays. That if trouble were to erupt, there would be no one to help them, and law enforcement officers would be unsympathetic. That if someone were to commit a hate crime against them, there is a not unreasonable likelihood the perpetrator would get away with it.

The fear and suspicion with which rural denizens regard cities and their dwellers is a well-established American archetype. What is often less observed, but is equally true, is the sheer dread that rural America raises in the minds of those minorities whose populations are largely centered in urban areas. When they leave their familiar surroundings for the so-called heartland—where some 83 percent of the population nationally is white—it is often with real fear about what might befall them.

It is a mistrust bred partly of myth and partly of reality. Its consequences, whatever its cause, are profound on a broad scale, because its chief effect is to widen the already formidable cultural gap between white America and the rest of us.

This case certainly underscores the need for a federal bias-crime law. Now that it's passed the House, it's time to get the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act passed in the Senate and sent to President Obama's desk.



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130 comments

Justice, GOP redneck style!

Its obvius we need more conservatives on the bench, otherwise prosecutors will continue bringing these kinds of unwarranted cases against our Hitler youth.

It's ok to beat Iraqis to death in CIA custody, and it's ok to do the same to Mexicans.

with any kind of dark skin pigment. This makes PA. look like a joke. I always disliked that state.

All us Pennsylvanians aren't racist murderers. Just rural counties. I can't stand leaving the city, those people scare the hell out of me. They think Glenn Beck is a god.

philadelphia

Ditto! Murtha's comments about "certain corners" of Western PA during the election were not spoken out of ignorance about the matter.

I love Pa. Thats were my family came from. And they are all liberal democrats.

There are alot of great people there. Including my relatives who raised several minority foster children that nobody wanted. That was back in the 80's and early 90's, when bi-racial was still frowned upon by many.

Don't judge a whole state by their lowest denominator. No-one would survive that type of scrutiny.

I actually lived in York, PA for a couple of years (no liberal bastion, but at least not as hard core right-wing as many of the rural areas. But everyone who knows Pennsylvania agrees that it's Pennsylvania-West and Pennsylvania-East, and a lot of Pennsylvania-Alabama/Appalachia in between. Which is why the Dems surge in the suburban Philadelphia/Pittsburgh counties has been so important. Oh, yes, those conservative areas are also the ones hardest hit by the economic downturn, which helps account for their racism.

If the races had been reversed and a white kid had been killed the hispanic kids would have been thrown in jail for life if not the death penalty.

It's terrible... this can only lead to more violence, retaliations, etc. The jury think they're defending their racist morals, but they're only inciting vengeances and more violence, and they'll get overwhelmed soon.

hate murder.

I reject the death penalty. If it were applied equitably across the board, that would be different. But it's WAY too racist a tool in this society, so no dice.

I'm sure this will put a smile on Lou Dobbs face ans he talks it over with his immigration hater colleague Bill O'Mousedick.

I should not agrily use the perjorative term "whitey" lest I be called racist? Especially when its by jerks who have no idea what it is to see through the eyes of people who are victimiized soley because of their appearance and who don't have the foggiest notion of what racism is!

I think you should, mi'jo. Personally, gringo has always been my epithet of choice; it has a lovely sneering sound in the mouth.

no problem with you using the term 'whitey' or gringo and cracker for that matter, as long as you agree that I can use terms you might find offensive, such as beaner, spic, or wetback.

You've been itching to do it so here's your chance since they are at the tip of your tongue and are in you're usual repertoir.

they nor most other derogatory terms are not in my usual repertoire. About the only one I can remember using in I don't know how long is hilljack, which is usually applied to people of the same race as myself and I use it to describe acts not people usually, oh and cracker used in a joking manner with others of my race, as in whats up cracker? Or shit cracker please. I think the last time I called someone a spic was about 15 years ago, I was on a camping trip with a co-worker and his family, and we were sitting around the campfire bsing and his brother looks at me and says "you know your pretty cool for a white boy" so I replied "And your pretty cool for a spic" Which did get him very upset, then I explained why I said it, which was his racist use of white boy was about the same as my use of the term spic. and if he didn't like it being applied to him he shouldn't use offensive terms to others.

And if you were an intelligent person you would not be so sensitive about being called a white boy.

IT'S NOT the same thing as a white person calling a black person a "******" or a hispanic person a "spick" - some whites have ALWAYS thought of other races as inferior - but those other races have NEVER considered white people inferior.

You should be smart enough to let it roll of your back - you'll never know what it's like to TRULY be looked down upon and discriminated against as a white person the way they have as a black or hispanic person - so for you to cry about being called "whitey" makes you look like a moron really.

I wasn't sensitive about it, and still am not. I could personally care less what someone calls me, I was just simply pointing out hypocrisy. And if you think some of those of "non-white" race think they are better than whites, simply by virtue of their skin color I'm afraid your wrong. Have you never heard quotes of "Black" or "Brown" power or Viva La Raza.

And as a white person I don't know what its like to be looked down upon, or discriminated against? That is good, try being a little white boy living in Gary IN.

as hypocrisy does. And you are obviously still in denial of it.

Do you know what is meant by whitey as perjorative? If you do, does it strike a chord?

You don't know the community from which I am from but we have, for the most part, very progressive relations here. Yes, there are the "whiteys" that lurk here. They showed up at the Tea Party here. It was characterized by the local republican rag as a crowd of 500. That was a gross exageration!

The progressive Whites and Chicanos here know what that means! We all laughed about it together!

as a black person, I don't entertain polish jokes or blond jokes or the use of the nWord. Even if he may be a hypocrite as far as white-on-white slurring, he is at least pro-forma not an apparent bigot. And to his credit, I haven't seen any extensive use of coded bigotry either. but that's just me.

chicano2nd - You asked why you shouldn't angrily use the term "whitey"... To me that seemed like because some jury in Pa acquitted some white guys, it was now legitimate to dislike white people. I think maybe we should stick to disliking the people who did what they did... and not tie it to a race. People do ridiculous things everyday in every part of the world... we would hate everybody if we thought like that.

Timmy - So you think it's alright to go up to people and say "What's up -insert race- boy" randomly?? Are you nutz? Have you ever tried that? And yes, your claim about other people beside white people ever thinking white people were inferior... yikes buddy... Believe it or not, everyone has an ego, it doesn't matter what race you are, and sometimes they blow up... I wonder how you see the world? If you really think what you just said, wow... the world must look really different to you.

Now, tell me why I should not agrily use the perjorative term "whitey" lest I be called racist?

Angrily using the perjorative "whitey" makes you as racist as those you complain about. If you don't understand that I'm afraid you won't be much help putting these problems to rest.

(I think we've had this discussion before.)

Schuylkill County is the opening for the Beverly Hillbillies when it comes to PA. If you get outside of Pitt, Philly, Scranton and Erie make sure you have a banjo and a toothbrush is optional. In these area's murder of a mexican by three hick cowards is considered simple assualt. They were kicking this guy in the head when he was down, what part of murder did this all white jury not understand?

some areas of PA are referred to as 'Pennsyltucky'.

Pennsylbama to me.

I remember when President Obama said last year that people in rural Penn cling to "guns and religion", he was called an elitist.

Well, if hating these motherfucker makes one elite, I'm proud to be an elitist

I remember when President Obama said last year that people in rural Penn cling to "guns and religion", he was called an elitist.

Well, if hating these motherfucker makes one elite, I'm proud to be an elitist

Then how about civil rights suit?

File one against these 3 guys and the lame ass jury. They reduced murder of Mexicans and other minorities in their county to simple assault. Now we can all go out get drunk Schuylkill County kill a mexican and have it called a juvenile fight that went to far. Grab your gun and bible Billy Bob, we gonna kill ourselves some Mexicans.

a country of dark skinned people. That would be like a license to kill.

four times the salary
none of the restrictions of the code Of military conduct.

and in Federal Court! But that still does not do away with the racism that is the foundation of this Democratic republic. I have also said it is a work in progress. (And thankully, for now, progressive blogs.)

the jury is immune, by law. And as for it being taken to federal court, the feds do not have jurisdiction in this case per the constitution, and existing laws, they only have jurisdiction for hate crimes when it involves a federally protected activity, ie voting and such. The defendants can be sued in civil court, just like OJ.

wasn't referring to a Federal District Court for a civil action?

Why do you think I am even suggesting going after the jury?

What is the basis of your assumptions in my statments?

but federal court would not be applicable for a civil suit in this instance, it did not cross state lines nor involve a party in another country, it would be a matter for local courts, And the jury comment was referring to Gump when he said they should go after the defendants and the jury.

Any attorney worth his salt could get this case into a federal district court. And if that attorney is a little better than that, he would at least get a judgment. If he has to appeal, and his client could afford it, he will! Etc., etc.

Now just imagine SPLC or ALCU, or MALDEF, etc., wanting to test the Constitutional application of one's civil right to say something like, uhm, maybe your life, and the resources it would take! They can do it because of their resources.

I will definitely send money, (since I aleady give to the ACLU monthly)to carry this case to its logical conclusion. Who knows, maybe even a Robert's lead Supreme Court would feel the political head of a non-republican majority electorate and a newly appointed Progressive Supreme Court Justice!

But this case can and will get into the federal court. I am willing to bet you on that!

for a purely civil suit, it would most likely not end up in a federal court. It would most likely be settled long before. And the fed courts usually do not decided the actually case, they determine if the laws were followed.

I've struggled with this issue because of the seeming ability to try someone twice for the same crime. But I've found it hard to find out exactly what the statute would look like. Would the bias statute essentially allow the feds to step in after a state jury gives a bad verdict? That's no good. One trial. If it's a bias crime the feds should have the right to step in immediately and take it from the states. Also I read that the statute provides substantial funding to prosecutors to pursue hate crimes. Does it give defendants an equal right to resources? Or at least the right to mount a credible defense? After all the full weight of the state is now against these defendants. Speak to any defense lawyer about defendants being overwhelmed by resources.

being able to step in, would violate the 10th amendment. The current legislation allows them to in cases of federally protected activities. Voting and such.

"Instead, they tried to cast Ramirez as the aggressor, and suggested that the other teens involved in the tangle of punches and blows were to blame."

The other teens? How many others were there? Will they be tried in the death? And if so, will they successsfully dodge responsibility by pointing the finger at yet "some other teens"? This is de facto legalization of murder by angry mob. Just get enough people to point the finger at each other circularly, and hey hey, nobody's responsible.

It's fairly well known that if you get enough people together to attack a person simultaneously, using the same assault, it'll be impossible to convict any one of them for the murder. Spread the blame around enough and nobody gets a full hit. If I remember correctly, more than one philandering asshole has met his fate at the hands of a group of girlfriends, and it does seem to work.

So it's open season on Mexicans? The federal prosecutor needs to get involved.
Now.

so sad

And his "buddies".
I hold you personally responsible for this and all the rest that are going to happen.
You guys are the ones who spew this hate talk. You've succeeded. You got into someones head with your vile diatribe. This is the result.
You should be proud of yourselves.

Muddy I think I was at that Ten Years After concert at long Beach Auditorium BTW.

Haaaaa.
Great show. I can't remember who else played.

Shame on them. May they rot in hell.

Didn't somebody say that Pennsylvania is Philly and Pittsburgh and Alabama in between? It was Mary Matlin's husband who said I believe.

...In 2001, writing for The Atlantic Monthly, journalist David Brooks noted, “The joke that Pennsylvanians tell about their state is that it has Philadelphia on one end, Pittsburgh on the other, and Alabama in the middle. Franklin County is in the Alabama part….”.

Two other noteworthy comparisons come to mind when hearing of this whitewash, one is the Mayor of some city there who had some of the strictest laws enforced against illegal immigrants (hispanics) and another was the connection to white supremacists there in more concentrated numbers. Kind of like the Idaho of the East.

Either way, I almost dont want to hear how a jury could acquit someone of murder. What a disgusting miscarriage of justice. Imagine the taunters being Hispanic, and the kid who died being one of the white defendants. Every one of them would have been sent upriver for life

This needs to be appealed immediately, if possible.

be tried again per the constitution. See the fifth amendment.

Why is there no amendment for mis-trial due to jury bias? (OJ anyone?) They will file civil suit, and the boys will of course lose (OJ Again) because they are GUILTY! If you are tried for murder and win, then lose a civil suit for the same crime but with different consequences there should be an investigation and a mis-trial.

Hm

How would you prove the bias? Not saying you're wrong, but that's probably why the option doesn't exist.

it would give free reign for prosecutors to continually retry the defendants whenever they lost a case, all they would have to do is claim jury bias. And while in this case jury nullification was most likely a bad thing(I say that because not being on the jury or in court I do not know the whole story) It does have a long tradition in our courts, including back in pre civil war times where in the north juries would use it to free slaves under the Fugitive Slave Act where blacks who were accused of running away were allowed a trial by jury. Until slave owners got the feds to change it where they were not entitled to a trial by jury. And also during prohibition where juries refused to return guilty verdicts against people accused of violating the prohibition laws.

If someone is convicted of assault and battery and said assault and battery leads to death....how do you say, guilty to assault, but not guilty to murder???

Or in cases like OJ, how does one win a murder trial in a federal case...then lose the civil case? Both are grounds for bias based mis-trial in my opinion.

Yes

In your opinion. That's the problem. Unless you can come up with concrete proof of bias, which is damn hard, it's a matter of opinion. Someone else might look at it (obviously have) and say they don't see a bias at all. It's the kind of thing that, in the absence of proof, could be debated without end. One of the things guaranteed by the Constitution is a fair and speedy trial. Too much danger of cases spreading out over decades while bias is argued back and forth. You've got to stop the process somewhere.

I mentioned in a separate reply, that the judge does have the power to throw out a jury's verdict and order a new trial if they think that given the evidence there was no way that an unbiased jury would give that verdict.

for that, I have heard of judges dismissing a guilty verdict or ordering the jury to return a decision of not guilty but not throwing out a not guilty verdict.

I'll have to amend that statement to being in regards to civil law suits. I'm currently in taking a Torts class, and with finals coming, didn't really have much time to double check that in regards to criminal proceedings.

Though reversing a verdict finding the defendant liable, and ordering a new trial was what I was referring to.

There's a privileged class, unless things have changed since I got expelled from high school in 1970.

Those jocks were permitted to commit just about any kind of mayhem with complete immunity.

And they knew it and took advantage of it.

..

They were allowed to do what they wanted in 80's and 90's too....Central PA privileged dumb asses. This state sucks, they run you out of town, suck off your labor, and/or kill and jail you.

Pure harassment, and if you retaliate in any way be prepared for the full wrath of the Pennsylvanian courts. You best be a loyal Republican, Faithfull and never question authority, if not you are out, assed out(famous PA saying)---Your ass is out- Got a friend in PA.

Yes there are good people here in PA, but none of them have any say or power over our land, only the rich Republicans do.

Making it even more illegal doesn't bring anyone (including the victim and/or his family) any more justice than they're already going to get under our inept criminal courts system.

As pointed out in the OP, hate crimes are about the "you're next" threat - terrorizing a population through the commission of crimes on individuals. Hate crime legislation isn't about making the crimes MORE illegal. It's about categorizing them differently, so that specific steps can be taken to reduce it, in ways different than those used to combat other killings.

Pennsylvania has Philadelphia in the east Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in the middle.

The Judge is also the often forgotten 13th juror, and the only one with veto power. In a situation like this a judge can just disregard the jury's verdict and order a new trial. I've read a few cases where the judge did just that. Decided that under the weight of the evidence, there was no way an unbiased jury would reach the verdict they did.

that's not an option that comes into play when the judge is biased as well.

That's why the judge didn't set aside the decision of the jury. I'm from Pennsylvania and I'm sad and ashamed today.

for in a earlier post, does anyone have any cites for a judge overturning a guilty verdict and ordering a new trial? Yes I have heard of judges ordering a jury to return a verdict of not guilty, and I have heard of judges declaring a hung jury or a mistrial but not when there was a unanimous verdict of not guilty.

I must confess to having an encounter with some beer and rum today and at the moment I am feeling no pain. I gave you another reply back on the Supreme Court thread.

If you encounter my soon to be buddy, the old salt, swab jockey tyree, tell him I would appreciate his comments about my latest comments on that thread. Tell him I apologize for making comments based on my assumptions with even bothering to ask him about the basis for his comments and the style of those comments. I am also interested in whether tyree was an above the main deck rate or if he was a snipe, airdale, or submariner?

I must confess I've consumed more alcohol than normal and have developed the attitude of a whorehouse owner.. right now I don't give a fuck for nothing.

In the other post.

As I've stated, I mixed up my criminal procedure with my civil procedure.

I would be too, dude. It's pretty sad all around.

as veto power over a guilty verdict, its called a hung jury. All they have to do is refuse to return a verdict of guilty.

I look for the Justice Department to look into a Civil Rights violation case.

I don't think we have heard the last on this one.

Just checked the local online paper for Schuykill county and their top story is "Model Trains' Popularity Remains Strong in Area". And then there's a story about the trial.

Among the comments in the article there appear to be some sentiments that the prosecution presented a weak case and gave the jury an opening for reasonable doubt.

You cannot prosecute again for the same crime, but you can prosecute for another crime stemming from the same original act. That is what was done after the State court acquittal of the LAPD officers who beat Rodney King.

In this case I suspect the good ol' Patriot Act could be used to charge the punks with the federal crime of terrorism - "activities that are "dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State" and are intended to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population".

Bring a cause of action into civil court where the burden of proof is much lower. That what's what happened to OJ in 92.

I've lived for at least 6 years each in rural Pennsylvania, rural New York,and rural Vermont. There are all different types of people, and yes there are ignorant white racists, in all three. I found the people in PA. to be most decent of the three, NY so-so, and contrary to what most would believe, based on superficial media coverage, Vermont to be the worst. People in rural Vermont will drive anyone who is different out and due to the low population density trouble doesn't rear it's head too often.
I lived in rural Vermont for several years before I realized many of my neighbors where white supremacist militia members and almost never saw anyone with dark skin(2 or 3 times). The "N" word was dropped constantly.
The liberal Vermonters that most hear of are located in what the native Vermonters call "Gold Towns", there is much animosity.

I wish I could have found those who you found in "rural" PA.

My last (gag inducing) reunion to good ol' rural eastern PA region didn't introduce me to any enlightened local denizens. Thanks to a distant relative dragging her boyfriend's family to gawk at the "left coaster"....I got surrounded by suspicious and scary heirs of the KKK's embedded role models with a few amusing anecdotes if one can laugh at the horrors.

Their entire conversations were replete with nuke the world, endless plots against melanin enhanced humanity...and endless hero worship of Captain Picard whilst cheering on every new stain on their wife-beater tee's ...asking amongst themselves if "it resembled JEEzus".

After days of endless "what would Captain Picard do" conversations...at one point - risking my life under the paranoid watchful eyes of these gun totin' "real 'Murkins" - I finally released my inner urban self and told the crowd how impressed I was with how they were emulating and honoring such a gay as pink ink actor that is Captain Picard, Patrick Steward.

The silence was deafening until someone broke the silence with another pointedly ignorant call with nuke em rants in coordination with a few belches.

do not show the tolerance of, say, Californians.

Yeah, intolerance for bigots and KKK is something to be 'shamed of...in Murk-istan.

??

gues you're joking but doesn't Kalifornya have more skinheads and gang members per square inch than the rest of Amerika combined? I've known people who went to the wrong beach and had their lives threatened.

When I lived in Pa. I had a mixed race couple from Ca. in my neighborhood temporarily who would say to me, "are Pennsylvanians racist?" meanwhile they owned 3 pitbulls and nobody wanted to go anywhere near their door.

You're talking about the coastal areas. People in land (especially in the north eastern corner) are just as batshit nuts as anyone you'd find in, say, Alabama.

this is BS and I can tell for several reasons. One you mentioned Capt. Picard everyone knows that Kirk is the man and that Picard is just a poor weak shadow of him. Also the stains would of resembled Jeebus not Jeezus. If your going to post crap at least try to make it realistic.

LOL

Yup, dare to speak them thar sparring words in defense of Kirk to them thar folk who endlessly "mentioned" Picard,...

and nope, JEEEzus was their main man, Jeebus is a bit too sophisticated for the locals of Burnt Cabins, PA.

One Picard-ette fan did reveal the region was settled by their good old boy Louisiana ancestors who moved north once the South fell.

related to WT chrustian hicks and sloppy sci-fi nerds? might want keep that on the dl. stick to the left coast wannabe persona

There are good people and very, very scary people populating the state of PA and elsewhere we all know.

In York, the local white supremacists are bragging they've had an additional 30,000 locals join up with their legions of hate since a certain type entered the halls of power in DC.

Most of central PA --the areas are well-known notorious ground zero for KKK --since its inception. It doesn't help the state has a plethora of fire and brimstone Lutheran pulpit pounders all in rapt head bowing subservience to the bible belt in the deep south.

Our most recent trip to the region rewarded yet more shock and awe of "real Americans" pining for what they openly discuss is their American dream: Section-8 housing certificates funded by the very taxes their tea bags make them think they need not pay.

The little town's population was abuzz and elated since one of theirs recently won the Section 8 lottery draw.

My friend who tagged along on the trip mentioned "since ignorance is bliss, the locals reached the state of Zen."

A stacked jury in a kangaroo court in Pennsylvania, no way. :/

I am not surprised, I would really like to know these kids family backgrounds. State workers of some sort. Involvement in the local churches?

White kids beating a Mexican to death in PA is legal, WTF!

Help!!!

Mexican neighborhood and town. I'm sheltered from experiencing this kind of violence first hand generally as a Chicana. But I can't tell you the horror I feel reading about this.

My Father grew up there, and I remember as a kid hearing stories about how gangs of bohunks from Shennie would ride over to Mahanoy City to bust some heads just for fun, a tradition that dated back to the days of the Molly Maguires.

Now they don't have to drive. Recent Latino immigrants have given them ample targets for outrageous hateful violence. Much of Pennsylvania, like the US as a whole, is fractured with pockets of insular xenophobics along the line of post-cold war Yugoslavia. The Republicans and Fox News use these primitives the way Hitler used the Brown Shirts. They rile the neanderthals up to alarm the opposition.

I have no doubt that Mr. Ramirez would be alive today if there were not daily reinforcement of racist and xenophobic attitudes from the likes of CNN's Lou Dobbs and Glenn Beck and the rest of the Fox News propaganda team.

Golly, just because someone in Mississippi says "Let's go out and shoot us some ******" doesn't make it a hate crime. Right--and pigs fly.

As the saying goes "Justice is blind". In this case not only blind but deaf.

Double jeopardy.
They can taken too a civil court on a wrongful death charge.
And be sued for damages. Just like the OJ trial.
What they need to do is change the charges to get another trial.
If they pursue a hate crime charge ( if it wasn't part of the original offense's charged) They may be able to get it into a Federal Court.just my opinion.

hate crime charge in the trial "ethnic intimidation". And the current federal laws for hate crime only apply to federally protected acts. Voting and such. So no federal hate crime charges do not apply in this case.

Possibly assault, battery and possibly Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress as well. In a not biased court, the victim's estate could get a pretty penny out of this.

post, much of it from some commenters decrying the bigotry and ignorance involved n the crime and trial.

How so? If someone is murdered....the assailant is convicted of the assault that lead to the death...but acquitted of the murder...that is justice? It is ignorant to be enraged at that? I agree, were it a white guy in that town beaten to death by a group of hispanics they would all be getting the chair.

*shaking head sadly*

Bigotry and rightful indignation are not the same, not by a long shot.

Pennsylvania, or all athletes, or other groups mentioned and tell me that is rightful indignation. Yours is the false analogy Tyler.

you are wrong

No surprise, McCain won the county 54-45%, about the exact opposite of Obama's results for the whole state. Gee, I guess these are the people that cling to more than just their guns and religion. And, of course, they're very AFRAID (courtesy of the right-wing echo machine, I'm sure).

We have some problems with Dems there too. Some results from the 2008 Democratic primary from this and adjoining counties:

Lehigh: Clinton 60%, Obama 40%
Luzernne: Clinton 75%, Obama 25%
Schuykill: Clinton 74%, Obama 26%

So much there is still about color that's it's frightening. I'm white and I left Pennsylvania years ago out of fear. I can't imagine how people of color must feel.

Dave N. wrote: "The fear and suspicion with which rural denizens regard cities and their dwellers is a well-established American archetype. What is often less observed, but is equally true, is the sheer dread that rural America raises in the minds of those minorities whose populations are largely centered in urban areas. When they leave their familiar surroundings for the so-called heartland—where some 83 percent of the population nationally is white—it is often with real fear about what might befall them."

As I said further up, I live in a predominantly Mexican and Mexican-American community, and the rest of our community is overwhelmingly also of color.

My Grandfather lived in Pismo Beach, California, for most of my childhood and youth. It's primarily white I guess, or at least appears to be because of tourists and vacationers.

Pismo Beach is one of those places I don't enjoy leaving my familiar settings for, considering, during just one visit, mind you, my cousin and I had a white couple cross the street to avoid us once they saw us coming towards their direction, and we also had a resturant owner and his mother very much treat us like we were potentially violent. They were very nervous around us, and he offered us some Italian drink for free, but it was clear to the both of us that it was motivated by an attempt to placate, not by someone who was just especially friendly. Mind you were not some violent couple of girls, we merely were ordering some food to take back to our mothers; we were all staying at Grandpa's house because he was in the hospital at the time.

Anyway, almost all of my negative experiences of racism have either occurred outside of my hometown, or by someone in my hometown who is not originally from my hometown. Like the professor who came from Indiana that yammered on about Native women's promisicuity and Black women's bodies...in what was supposed to be a class about World Religion.

In short, religion racism sucks, and I am still very saddened for Mr. Ramirez' family.

Whoops, brain fart, meant to say racism where I said religion in last sentence.

I just marched to Wikipedia, and this is what I found for Pismo:
"The racial makeup of the city was 91.35% White, 0.60% African American, 0.71% Native American, 2.92% Asian, 0.06% Pacific Islander, 1.65% from other races, and 2.71% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 6.89% of the population."

has been known as the Portuguese Palm Springs for as long as I can remember. Portuguese come in all shapes, sizes and colors. I know, I'm one. There are European Portuguese, South American Portuguese, African Portuguese, Asian Portuguese. Getting the picture.
I've been going to Pismo and that part of the coast for over 60 years and I know alot of the residents and its a melting pot of people. If you are teenagers you might get a reaction from some of the retired residents but I don't think race has much to do with it.

You were obviously there and so know better than anyone else... but a guy at a restaurant serving 2 girls a free drink hardly seems like him being scared of you. I've never seen anybody at any business ever scared of two young girls coming in no matter what race they were. And how do you know the couple crossed the street because of you or your race? That seems like a pretty big leap... someone crosses the street and it's because they're racist?? Are you possibly projecting racism where there could be a million other possibilities? Isn't that racist? Would you have held the same assumptions if they were any other color?

How long before those two show up as contributors to Fox News... or maybe they'll tour with Joe the Plumber...

and the Republican party needs to take responsibility for its 'fringe' which is becoming more and more violent. As a Liberal, I may talk you to death but my 'vote and my voice are my weapons' for the domestic fight.
The Michael Weiners of the world are 'creating' these exploding 'dittoheads' that usually take themselves out after their rampage but this jury verdict is an outrage!
Where are all the people upset about OJ?

May those jurors never have a decent nights' sleep again...

this is no localized phenomenom. it is nationwide and has grown since Noxin said that whites should be angry with non-whites and started the repuglyKKKan party on the Southern strategy addiction. and whites rarely openly oppose the bigotry of other whites against non-whites.

That's just the way it is. This is still a country that has not finished the civil war.

Very hard to believe this kind of injustice can happen today.

This is worse than O.J. because the jurors had more than circumstantial evidence and simply decided to side with the white kids.

Hate crime or not, how can you possibly find someone not guilty when they killed another human being?

Unfortunately, the existence of most hate crime laws will enable more of these criminals to go free. Where an all white jury might have found these men guilty of a crime such as manslaughter, they wouldn't allow them to suffer from the enhanced penalties that go with a hate crime. And whites are becoming more sensitive to the fact that a crime against any group BUT a white person can be called a hate crime.

of manslaughter or anything else.

If there's a difference between pre-meditated murder, like buying your wife insurance then killing her, and a crime of passion, like finding your wife in bed with a mate, of course there ought to be a difference between murdering someone merely BECAUSE they're black or gay or white and murdering someone who broke a bottle over your head.

The point of deterrence is to punish people corresponding to the severity of their behavior.

based on evidence, you ought to be able to differentiate a hate crime--whether it's directed towards a Christian or a Muslim, a white or a Mexican--and a murder over money or passion or whatnot.

If the person says, "Hand over your wallet or I'll bash your head in," it's probably not a hate crime. If the person yells, "Get your white ass out of Shenandoah" or "get your Christian boyfriend out of here" then it's probably a hate crime.

F*** the verdict and the jury that handed it down. That MAN was MURDERED. By the hands of those two thugs. I hope they get it back worse in the future.

Those of us like myself who live in Southern California, recognize a serious problem with the influx of mexicans are done no favors by this ruling. Sure i want immigration controlled but murder is a whole other story. Now those of us who see the shades of grey and nuance are going to lumped in with the Lou Dobbs's of America.

I mean, the prosecutors would be insane not to appeal this case. Unless they want to start an open season on immigrants.

Unless they want to start an open season on immigrants.

I get the impression, the season is open and no one wants to close it.

Be stupid not to.

Anyone familiar with the make up of the Penn. Supreme Court? If it gets that far, and the court isn't made up of racists, then there could be a good chance of the verdict being overturned. Supreme courts also seem to think about policy more than the trial courts too.

a thing such as a 'appeal' but it does not pertain to this, once a not guilty verdict is handed down that is virtually it in a criminal court. The prosecutors cannot appeal the jury decision, the defendants can't appeal a jury decision, they have to base it not on the jury, but on whether or not the rules of law were properly followed in court, ie evidence that should of been allowed was suppressed, evidence allowed that should not of been due to a illegal search and seizure etc. If the defendants appeal is upheld then, the prosecutors can then appeal that decision.

It sounds like the prosecution would have to argue faulty jury instruction.

jury instruction have been?

I want him to read the thread above and chastise my statement earlier about ignorance in the comments.

Not aimed at Timjoe multiname, of course.

Besides, the killers were all good Christian boys. Can't put them in prison because they are Men Of Gods.

no need to fret too much. I promise you these murderers will have to sleep very lightly with a gun under their bed for the rest of their lives. They would have better protection in jail. Justice will come as it always does.....

This is absolutely despicable. This is a heinous crime, and for the jury to acquit these violent degenerate bigots send the message that they'd rather see the streets and neighborhoods of America be war zones. This is not the kind of America that I want to raise my children in, and by Governor Edward Rendell remaining silent on this issue, it sends the message that he condones such hideous acts of senseless violence. This young man and his family along with the rest of America DEMAND justice for this CRIME of hatred and bigotry. It needs to be known that here in 2009 in the United States of American such a blatant act of cowardice and hate will not be tolerated.

As of 05/12/09 the Department Of Justice and the FBI have opened up their own investigations. Which will now make these offenses FEDERAL when they're once again tried. But now the local circuit court judge and the jurors themselves come under fire for obstruction as well. I pray they're all nailed. We all know it's a big difference between the time you serve and the sentences handed down by hicktown U.S.A. judges and federal court judges.

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