'Are these folks serious?' Obama rips into stimulus-plan critics
By David Neiwert Thursday Feb 05, 2009 11:00am
Speaking before the Energy Department this morning, President Obama made a stirring defense of his stimulus package, and nailed his critics' ears to the wall:
As we are meeting, in the halls of Congress just down the street from here, there is a debate going on about the plan I have proposed, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan. This isn't some abstract debate. Last week we learned that many of America's largest corporations are planning to lay off tens of thousands of workers. Today we learned that last week the number of new unemployment claims jumped to 626,000. Tomorrow we're expecting another dismal jobs report. On top of the 2.6 million jobs that we lost last year, we've lost half a million jobs each month for the last two months.
Now, I believe that legislation of such magnitude as has been proposed deserves the scrutiny that it has received over the last month. I think that's a good thing, that's the way democracy is supposed to work. But these numbers that we're seeing are sending an unmistakable message, and so are the American people. The time for talk is over. The time for action is now. Because we know that if we do not act, a bad situation will become dramatically worse. Crisis could turn into catastrophe for families and businesses across the country, and I refuse to let that happen.
We can't delay, and we can't go back to the same, worn-out ideas that led us here in the first place. In the last few days we've seen proposals arise from some in Congress that you may not have read, but you'd be very familiar with, because you've been hearing them the last ten years -- maybe longer. They're rooted in the idea that tax cuts alone can solve all our problems, that government doesn't have a role to play, that half-measures and tinkering are somehow enough. That we can afford to ignore our most fundamental economic challenges -- the crushing cost of health care, the inadequate state of so many of our schools, our dangerous dependence on foreign oil.
So let me be clear: Those ideas have been tested, and they have failed. They have taken us from surpluses to an annual deficit of over a trillion dollars. And they have brought our economy to a halt. And that's precisely what the election we just had was all about. The American people have rendered their judgment. And now it is time to move forward, not back. Now is the time for action.
The whole talk, in fact, was strikingly energetic, even inspiring -- especially for those of us waiting to see him come out fighting against the Republican ankle-biters he has to deal with. Later on, he lashes Republicans and their talking heads for how decidedly unserious their entire approach has been:
Now, I read the other day that critics of this plan ridiculed our notion that we should use part of the money to modernize the entire fleet of federal vehicles to take advantage of state-of-the-art fuel efficiency. This is what they called pork. You know the truth. It will not only save the government significant money over time, it will not only create manufacturing jobs for folks who are making these cars, it will set a standard for private industry to match.
And so when you hear these attacks, deriding something of such obvious importance as this, you have to ask yourself: Are these folks serious? Is it any wonder we haven't had a real energy policy in this country?
No doubt the Republicans will be howling about how this ends "bipartisanship." Let them.
Login or Register to post comments.
If they refuse to work with us. Fuck 'em!
In your face GOP traitors!
Traitorous slime who hate this country.
...hate this country.
They are not patriotic in any way that doesn't relate to self-interest and personal profit. These people are not Americans where it conflicts with their own selfish ideas and their bottom lines. America is just one more money pool for them to draw water from and they will keep going until the well is dry. THEY DON'T CARE.
Yep, the same type of people who would fund both sides of a war.
are the REAL terrorists.
They are terrorizing our economy and the country and doing more harm to the American people on a daily basis than Al Freakin' Qaeda.
Just sayin'.
Every recession in American history has been preceded by large tax cuts for the wealthy. Trickle down economics has created another huge mess. We must act NOW, or suffer another great Republican depression. Only bottom-up economics can return the US to prosperity.
I agree with that statement, but am wondering why the Obama administration is trying to tackle the 'ecomony' problem from the top, down? President Camacho might seem like the smartest man alive right now, but its only by comparison to Chimp, and that aint sayin much.. we need a 'Not Sure'!
Too bad the action he's advocating is not geared towards truly fixing the economic mess in this country.
what would be the right action?
Instead of rewarding banks and financial institutions for failing, why not just pay off the subprime loans? The banks get their money, the bad debt disappears as the mortgages are paid off, the people keep their homes and the economy explodes as homeowners that are free and clear suddenly have a lot of extra income they used to be spending on their mortgage payments.
As it is now, banks are getting the money BUT the people are still losing their homes, the banks still have all that bad debt and the economy is still in the crapper.
handing money to the banks is a bad idea. Getting rid of toxic mortgages sounds good in theory. But doesn't that idea count on rising home values? It may be decades before the values come close to the hyper-inflated nubers we saw.
Who cares about the home values? The homeowners will be free and clear, all the mortgages will be paid off. Only people hurt would be investors who's holdings would be worthless. I submit however 2 items:
1. Not so terrible if shareholders lose money. They gambled, sometimes you lose, and...
2. The loss would only be in the short term because with millions of homeowners who have no mortgage to pay off anymore the economy would turn around right quick and the stock market would rebound.
Like I said, I'm no economist so there are probably a million things wrong with my plan but if we're going to throw away trillions of dollars anyway at least let it have a tangible benefit of having people keep their homes.
your idea. I for one an tired of paying the assholes in the home loan more in intrest than my home is worth. This year I payed $10,000 in intrest and $2,200 on my loan. some american dream. its a friken bankers dream, and they do this shit every 10 to 12 years.
is to pay more than your actual payment, and have any extra applied to the principle. It's shocking how quickly you start to feel less screwed over.
I remember looking in my mom and dads mortgage payment book. On the first payment, $.03 went to principle; $199.97 went to interest. Yes, it was awhile ago, 1968.
I was doing that,BUT, they did my taxes on the year befor on an inproved LOT @ $44,000. they new the new tax was out, did not tell me how they did the taxes. the county had the new tax out for 6 months and told me they sent out the new tax. 10 monthe later I get a new house payment, it went up $486 more. that was my extra I was paying.
my parents were very fiscally responsible. Both were children of the depression and never let us forget that you can't get something for nothing. Their attitude gave me the discipline that allowed me to pay off my house in less than 9 years. Granted, it wasn't a big loan, but it's all mine now.
... has been advocating on The Daily Show? A great idea.
and, by the sounds of it, the banks are sitting on all this bail-out dough, afraid to lend it out. So, how is this helping the economy?
Capitalism is designed by and for addiction therefore works best for addicts and amoral huffers. The rider which comes with being born an addict states fuck everyone in sight and turn off the lights when you take a shit.
Obama wants to do something, I don't doubt his sincere intentions however unless someone can cogently answer:
If those questions can't get answered with sound reasons then all the good intentions are a path paved to hell. No one spare a few is asking and NO ONE has answered. These basic fundamental questions any of us would have to ask ourselves if it were our own personal finances.
There are loads historical examples doing nothing and picking up the pieces works well, intervention always causes problems.
I have posted so many examples on C&L on this my fingers are raw.
It's so simple.
Krugman who gets waved here as a banner because he has a Nobel has not explained his positions at all. He is vague but if Nobel is what people here need, fine I'll give you a Nobel prize winner in economics who says the opposite of Krugman.
Nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz says Let banks fail!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysect...
The man once described as the world's greatest treasurer, former prime minister Paul Keating, is not for it either.
Video to the right
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s...
Why isn't anyone listening to these guys, they predicted it years ago and were right.
Take some time and look up what they have to say
last night, when you posted something just like this.
You are confusing TARP with stimulus, and running about using the argument against one to apply to the other (when the economists you cite are clear it doesn't apply). For longer version, refer to last night.
Because you and every stimulus loving person here is avoiding the 2 ton elephant in the room. TARP, stimulus, bail-out, infrastructure investment, call it what you like. They all have one thing in common, were spending money WE DON'T HAVE!
Unless you can answer these questions with solid plausible answers your just living in dreamland on a road to hell.
HELLO!?
Take a close look at this chart, that is what we are doing to the dollar.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/fredgraph?s[1][id]=AMBNS
That is the FED's own chart, explain how that is good.
maybe if we hadn't been spending half the budget on defense for the last 50 years, maybe, just maybe we could afford to upgrade the electrical grid and all those crumbling roads and bridges.
Exactly. But then the defense budget would go into the giant new Denial Casino.
Did you even listen to the video you posted?
TARP is different from stimulus. Your own video was quite negative in bank bailouts, but positive on government deficit spending as stimulus. I can see you don't read my links. I've got the reason for your link in a link below, same source too!
Of course the debt bubble will break. And, (again, try my links scroll further down, or just use the metric "BORROW" on the St. Louis Fred charts) the current Fed lending is at levels beyond any even conceived. You'll see the root cause of yours.
I am stimulus approving, but TARP negative. The economist in your video is the same. China is on record as supporting stimulus (thier own first, ours second) but in no way do they want to lend us money that will increase our borrowing (TARP).
Here, let me try it this way. You are a delivery guy. You are broke. You owe a lot. Your truck is broken. Due to you owing them money a few of your creditors (who'd like to see some of that back one day) are willing to loan you some more. You do have a great track record when you aren't being stupid.
They can
a) loan you money to fix up your delivery truck
b) loan you money you will use to pay off your bookie
c) loan you nothing
Most smart creditors will do a, but not b or c. Why? You are more likely to pay them back some of their existing debt if you have a truck that works. We are addicted to debt though.
Stimulus is fixing the truck. TARP is paying the bookie. The question is, can we borrow enough to fix the truck, and are we smart enough to fix the truck first then pay the bookie?
So in response to your "HELLO!?", I respond, start reading and actually manage to tell me something I do not already know if you want to change my mind. Start with watching your own video.
Hechicera no the Paul Keating is not positive on the stimulus but before I address that let me address some of your other points. First if I seem crass it’s because I am debating people here who have no idea where the money is going to come from, nor seem to consider it has to come from somewhere. So I will retune my comments and I apologize for my prior angry presentation.
You say:
All that borrowing started when the collapse in September started, it was a panic response to the root cause. The root cause is $10 trillion in foreign debt and a bubble in every industry caused by too much credit to people who shouldn’t have had it, the US has become insolvent.
That spike in the borrow chart was helicopter Ben’s quantitative easing by injecting liquidity into the system to try to get credit moving again. It was to prevent a repeat of what happened in the 1930’s when people made a run on the banks. There are number of root causes and all of them date 30 or more years back but that is another conversation as my post will be long enough.
Keating however hit one of the root causes in his opening statements
The FED’s BORROW chart you mention shows the banks have the all liquidity they need to lend already.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/b...
It is further backed up buy the Reserve Bank Credit chart; this is the total amount the Federal Reserve has loaned out of its bottomless checkbook. This chart includes all the rest of the bailouts.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/R...
And again further verified by Excess Bank Reserves chart, these are reserves in excess of the amount that the Federal Reserve requires the banks to have.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/E...
Bear in mind this important point
Now to address your points on Keating being for the stimulus, you say:
Keating talks of stimulus measures twice the first is referring to China, saying this:
There’s no endorsement. The second reference is referring to his own country Australia on tax cuts as a stimulus saying this:
Only $210 billion in the $900 billion in Obama’s package is in tax cuts, I don’t see this being of an endorsement of Obama’s overall stimulus package. What Keating is endorsing and calling for is a completely new Bretton Woods agreement which I responded to your post yesterday with his comments on this:
In my link Keating talked about deficit spending
Keating rightly asks who is going to buy the bonds? and this come to my point. This stimulus requires another country to purchase our debt or the FED just loans itself the money and prints it from nothing effectively destroying the dollar (hello Argentina).
We’re in for a rude awakening, China has been warning us for a while now they are not going to buy our dollars forever.
This leads me back to my original point on this stimulus
Obama’s good intentioned plan is going to put the final nails on our coffin, mind you I voted for Obama because he brings global credibility back to our country and McCain would have done the same as he (both parties voted for the bailout) and both are pushing for a stimulus, and both are wrong.
C&L acknowledged Peter Schiff was right last November
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/peter-sc...
He is definitely not for the stimulus, before Obama's term is up C&L posters are going to have to admit he was right again. Check out his site. http://www.europac.net
Kiyosaki makes some solid points, worth reading
Robert Kiyosaki Why the Rich Get Richer
Eve of Destruction: How the Financial Crisis Was Built Into the System
http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/richr...
as pro-stimulus.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,2198...
Titled:Former Prime Minister Paul Keating advising Kevin Rudd
"The man who brought us the recession we had to have, and warned of Australia becoming a banana republic, has urged Kevin Rudd to "spend, spend, spend" to stimulate the ailing economy."
Sounds pro-stimulus to me.
And reported here:
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0...
""Keating's been telling everyone he invented budget surpluses. But now is the time to spend, spend, spend," one government figure said."
Most of the economists aren't arguing if stimulus works. China, rightfully, stimulated themselves first. And now, it is working. Link1 Link2. The arguments are can we afford it, and is this bill the right kind (production vs consumption). Many of the "not for stimulus" people are not anti-stimulus, but basically saying we are past being able to do that, since we are already broke and no one will pay. It is that dire.
And the reason some countries will lend: hyperinflation. As we've both pointed out as already a risk (with charts) and associated currency issues (fall of the dollar against other currencies). You realize who the lender is now who is propping us up? The Fed. Yes we are already trying to "print our way out". This is much worse than simply borrowing more. The problem the other countries have is that they already have so much in dollar reserves, this is due to the USD having been the reserve currency. If the dollar hyperinflates, the principle of the existing debt becomes worthless.
I am not arguing that the debt bubble got us in to this. And, eventually that has to be fixed. There will already be "a paying of the piper". If we have to do that without a stimulus, be prepared for infintely more pain. The more economies that recover before ours, the more likely hood that countries even faster abandon the USD as a reserve currency. That will trap us in Argentina.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-AwB5hHj4M
Apology on tone accepted, btw.
The top two links are quoting Treasurer Wayne Swan saying Keating is telling him that and some unidentified government figure, I can’t help but wonder why Keating refused to comment.
You saw the recent video of Keating and he said nothing of the sort. He is proposing a new Bretton Woods agreement that will fairly represent debtor and surplus nations. Directly says the exact opposite of what Wayne Swan is asserting he is being told.
This flies in the face of a stimulus package which is supposed to get this nation spending again, credit flowing again. Australia is a deficit country with a $600 billion national debt. Both Peter Schiff and Marc Faber said exactly the same thing as Keating’s above quote today and went into good detail why.
Peter Schiff: Stimulus Bill Will Lead to "Unmitigated Disaster"
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/...
US Inflation Could Hit 200%: Marc Faber
http://www.cnbc.com/id/29047443
I saw your links on China, yes they are bigger trouble than we are. Do you really believe those news short snippets? You know China controls it media tighter than we do. It is going to take more time than a month to claim progress but bringing up China makes a good point. They are looking to do massive spending on their own stimulus. Our deficit spending has been heavily dependant on China; they are not going to flip the bill for us much longer as you can see in my above links from my previous post. They won’t be stimulating both economies in fact China is sitting on $2 trillion sterilized US dollars and they are looking to unload, that will break the camels back here if that happens.
Hyperinflation is the result of monetary inflation, unleashing the printing presses. We have seen the results of this kind of activity in many countries, Argentina, Hungary, Zimbabwe, Germany, all the reason are different and the result is always the same, collapse. We are doing the same thing now, we are on a fiat currency since 1971 when Nixon yanked us off the gold standard.
The true definition of monetary inflation is the printing of money without backing, there have been over 3800 fiat currencies throughout history. Their success track record is zero. That gives this printing stimulus a probability of zero in succeeding. Since I live in Vegas I can tell you the betting odds are 3800 to 0 chance of fiat currency succeeding.
If want to here some serious detail on this that Krugman never comes close to watch this interview with Jim Rogers.
Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) The U.S. dollar will be “devalued” as policy makers seek to weaken it, undermining the greenback’s role as an international reserve currency, Buys Commodities said Jim Rogers, chairman of Rogers Holdings in Singapore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQzjV_CTco
[GIVE IT A REST. Your posts are way to long and you are repeating yourself, on the same thread w/copy and paste. Edit yourself, or we'll have to do it for you. Shorter excerpts and links-Sitemonitor]
I will try to to keep it as short as possible. I repeat myself only because people keep missing the main point.
you like to tout your own Nobel laureates in support of your view perhaps you'll admit that the Chicago School policies, overflowing with Nobe prize winners, got us into this mess in the first place.
because this site has an unhealthy man crush on all things krugman, and seem to fall back on his recent Nobel award as proof that he speeks god's honest truth. If you ask me, he simply toes the 'government is god and can save us from ourselves' line and thus gets media promotion.
as much as I like to hear what Krugman has to say, I agree that other economists need to be listened to. "Man crush" sounds about right.
got a better Idea or do you just bitch. wondering if you are just a repug all but hurt ovet the election.
You'll see there is a better idea in there, it's called let them fail. You don't catch Godzilla when he's falling, you stop him from growing into Godzilla. Our only choice now is to bury the body and start again.
Does he realize he's dealing with an opposing party who gets their talking points from Rush and Joe the Plumber?
I don't give a rat's ass what the republicans say from now on -- they got us into this mess and they offer no real solutions to get out of it. Render them irrelevant.
Limbaugh says he wants Obama to fail. If thats the case then we should do the exact opposite of what Rush says...and Obama succeeds. Seems simple (although I know it isn't).
and next...it's time for the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES BARACK OBAMA to call the head of EVERY new agency and network in this country and tell them...you will start covering news and providing unbiased information to the public...instead of being the stenographers of the failed minority party.
It's time for the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES BARACK OBAMA to have a little chat with his own party...the majority party...and tell them to grow a nutsack.
crank up that transparency knob and let everyone see how efficient most public officials are at doing absolutely nothing. If change won't come willingly from those that are supposed to work for us then maybe frenzied backlash from the public will move it along.
The msm and the republicans have been doing the business of the corporation against the people! It is way past time to stop these slimey republican scum.
I for one do not care how but we need to send these greedy cowards packing with their tails tucked between there legs.
people like mcconnell, that moron pence, and god knows you could fire a sawed off shotgun into all the republican senators and congresscritters and I guarantee you would not hit one honest person.
All these republicans are on the take and have been for thirty years. Get them out of the way any way possible!
Last night they called from Franken's campaign and I gave them ANOTHER twenty bucks for their "legal team"...thanks to Norm Coleman's stonewalling.
The Republican Party is making a concerted effort to keep Al Franken from being in the Senate so he cannot vote. This is obvious.
I was told it could be another 6-8 weeks before Coleman gives up the fight. The guy told me the fight is over absentee ballots and that the Democratic Party was the only party that did a major absentee ballot push for early voting in Minnesota.
Obviously none of us know what the final outcome will be in the Minnesota vote count, but between this and what's going on in Congress when thousands of Americans are suffering, the Republicans and all their cheerleaders in the media should be holding their "patriotic" heads in shame.
I think Coleman should grow his hair again. It would give him much more cred. ;)
Let'r Rip !
Let 'em howl... New
Thu, 02/05/2009 - 11:11 — Liberal AND Proud
grow a nutsack.
Obama
Thu, 02/05/2009 - 11:13 — nickjacket
Let'r Rip !
_________________________________________________
Interesting proximity.
Should Nancy grow some too?
if she can't...maybe she can rent Hillary's on alternating weeks.
We are dealing with this...we lose.
I blame the Republicans 95% for leading this country to the brink of peril. They were in charge and it was their policies that failed. I do not understand why Obama would want to reward ANY of them with high-level positions and I don't understand Obama's desire for an elusive, imaginary bipartisanship governing.
Unfortunately, even in these few short weeks I see no signs that the Dems are going (or even desire!) to take the reigns and steer the ship. After 8 years of one disaster after another, the Republicans should be safely locked away in steerage. The ability of the Republcians to control even when in the minority is astounding and I'm not sure it's due to their uncanny ability to do that or just the Dems ability to roll over and play dead.
I can tell you this. If something isn't done soon the country is headed for true disaster.
..more competent Democrats will attempt to oust the do-nothings within the party. Starting with Nancy "We took impeachment off the table" Pelosi.
But I've not heard anything from the Dems regarding replacing Pelosi or Reid. They've accomplished nothing in the past and will, most likely, accomplish nothing in the future. They should have already been replaced. That they will continue in their jobs is pathetic. Some ranking committe members should go too, including Conyers and Leahy. We need to clean out our own house and put people in place with conviction and guts.
got their hands full at the moment with the economy nose diving and all that fun stuff.
Give 'em time.
..two parties: The Democrats and the Liberals.
Its pretty obvious what the Rethugs and Consub's want, they want a return to power.
Mr. President: Kick their collective keesters!
We need a stronger Green Party if yas ask me.
And I wonder what two parties the GOP will splinter into...
The Real GOP, and the American Nazi Party?
probably Teddy Roosevelt was the last "real" republican.
Even though he was an imperialistic warmonger asshole, he at least passed some sensible domestic policies.
The GOP has been batshit crazy ever since. F*ck, Ike ran in the GOP ticket because he was more afraid of the wacko wing of the GOP getting into power (Nixon) than the Dem alternative.
But still...we gotta find them new names...
It could be fun...we could have a raffle, and maybe a marching band and a juggler or somethin...
I'm kinda fond of the Terrorist Organization Formerly Known as the Republican Party(TOFKRAP).
from a purely political perspective this was a good move by obama, imo
Slap the stupid off of the faces of Republicans.
Figuratively, of course.
I don't know about anybody else but my two republican contacts are in a bigger frenzy today than they were in November, or even two weeks ago.
Is that Glen Beck and Rush working their magic?
If they fall on the floor and start doin' the worm...we all wanna watch!!!
to make sure we are inundated with repub talking point shit. Listen to your contacts. Aren't they pretty much repeating the same line? They have to be spoon fed to give them the semblance of intelligence but we know they are airheads.
But we don't have that kinda time.
That's an awful LOT o' slappage there.
after a trial and all.
ricky?
grade school got out early today!
or, for completeness, 'Qapla! in Klingon. I am told that this is the correct spelling, but can't vouch for it. Seriously, it's about time Barrack tears into the obstructionists (and the GOP is not alone in this, I'm afraid).
Qapla...is "Success" or "Victory" in Klingon.
Emphasis on the first syllable.
Where are the g..d..n progressive TREKKIES in the Obama cabinet?
time ya said something I can agree with!
Do you want Trekkies or do you think they are g..d..ned?
Is that a tribble in your pocket...or are you just glad to see me.
sense you are here.
You'll never know the tribbles I've seen.
knows the tribbles you've seen.
nobody knows, but Jeeeeebuuuuuuus.
Actually, it's "trekkers," not "trekkies."
Which was the documentary?
Trekkies? right?
I've seen every episode of every Star Trek show...but I couldn't tell ya what happened on any particular show.
I'm a lousy fan I guess.
Are you ALWAYS such a pain to talk to?
Damn!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVKKRzemX_w
But Republicans were also elected during this last election and are presently doing the peoples' will by asking the tough, necessary questions about Obama's Porkus Maximus Stimulus proposal. It's how the system works.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Republicans? Doing the People's Will?
HA!
It IS to laugh!
What a total crock of fookin shite!
I think I musta have missed when John McCain won the presidential election.
LOL.
and now comes the vote...and if they want to filibuster...they can...let's see how that appeals to the American public.
The GOP is a petulant chlld that is used to having it's own way, and now that the grownups are back in the room, they're response is to whine to granny or stand in the corner and hold their breath.
Porkus Maximus?? Take out all of the tax cuts, add raising the minimum wadge to about $12 per hour, institute tariffs that would accually bring back manufacturing to the United States, and leave all the spending in and then you would have a bill. Do you want to give some examples of the over the top pork in this bill?
...we are trying to stimulate the economy, not stifle it. Take out tax cuts for both individuals and corpoartions will limit economic recovery. Raising minimun wages only acts to limits new hirings. You want to start a trade war now with China whose only interest in buying our debit is to keep their billions employed?
Again, filling the marketplace with Monopoly money will only act to delay the necessary market contractions before the real economy can start to grow, and real, sustainable jobs created. We are a strong nation with a strong economy. We will bounce back. If we cut government spending by 30% and use those funds to pay for a significant tax cut for individuals and corporations, the economy will respond directly in the shortest amount of time, with no aditional deficit.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Tax cuts are a form of government expenditure, so one can't be for tax cuts and government spending cuts at the same time.
And it's not monopoly money unless the federal reserve starts releasing money willy-nilly without being based on some kind of existing fund, which is what they try to do with such things as prime lending rates, reserve rates etc. This is existing money, not confederate dollars.
If you receive less revenue as a result of lowering taxes, you would have to cut government spending or engage in deficit spending, which is, in fact, what has been occurring for some time now.
As to your second point...I assume you know the present M3 value or that U.S. Treasury Bonds are actually being sold, of which I am not at all sure of any of these things.
ex animo
davidfarrar
March 23, 2006, the government stopped publishing the M3 number.
They still publish M1 & M2.
I have all the other numbers. The Fed. does publish them.
toward farrar. Thom Hartmann used to mention the M3 figure.
But when I post the charts, just click the links, the data from the Fed. blows his argument right out of the water.
The 30% in spending cuts should be all in Defense.
That too. I'm pro-military and intelligence btw. But right now their levels of funding are absurd and obscene.
first...supply side economics doesn't work. Been tried twice...failed twice.
DEMAND side economics works. Proven. When you put money in the hands of working people, they will spend it...and you can put that money in in two ways. You can cut their taxes...working people mind you...not rich people...who do not spend the money...but stick it in trust funds...you cut taxes on WORKING people...who spend it on food, cars, clothes, etc.
The other way is to create jobs. After the Depression it was done via infrastructure improvement projects, public works, shoveling snow...and that is the part of the Obama plan that the GOP wants cut. Know why? Cause they KNOW it will work. They KNOW that if unemployment drops...and people get paid...and they pay taxes...and tax revenue grows...and they buy more products...which creates more demand...which grows the economy...they KNOW that the GOP will be out in the political wilderness for ANOTHER 40 years...just like the last time.
But unemployment during the Great Contraction was 40%, not 8%.
If we focus in simply stimulating the ecomoney instead of spending money we don't have, we can probably get this economy going within six months after the tax cuts, not two or three years, with a massive deficit to be paid off all before 2017.
ex animo
davidfarrar
have not reflected reality for two decades.
If you include people that no longer receive unemployment insurance and those that have long given up the prospect of finding a job...estimates have the unemployment rate well over 10%...and some studies have it close to 20%.
Be that as it may...what is your point? That demand based stimulus only works when things are REALLY bad?
"When your neighbor loses their job...it's a recession....when you lose your job...it's a depression."
Exactly, and it's deficit spending to fund optional wars that while putting out tax cuts for the top 1% that has taken us from a surplus to a severe deficit in just 8 years.
I wouldn't mind tax cuts for those making under 40,000.00 a year, maybe a little higher where the cost of living is higher like New York and Los Angeles, but no more of Socialism for the wealthy, because it never trickles down.
It's all very true, tax cuts for those of us who get paid by the hour is a very good way to directly stimulate the economy. Heck, I have even suggested we stop taxing individual labor as profit. But in order to complete the tranaction, consumers need something to consume. Companies have to be created to produce the products or simply rely on imports...something none of us want.
Nope, I'm afraid there is nother for it but government cuts in spending and lower taxes for all...all else is pure porkus maximus.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Cutting taxes for corporations who already employ all kinds of accounting tricks to underpay in the first place (who then of course finance runs for offices), is the very definition of political pork.
And for your information pork in Latin is porcus (no k), you just embarrass yourself everytime you say this, particularly since you never point out what exactly the pork is. It just sounds like you're parroting talking points.
Parroting.
Polly wants a piece of ass...
I wasn't trying to be accurate, simply understood. If I had written it as "porcus" maximus, who would know what that meant?
I am not sure private corporations can ever produce pork unless they are porcus fornicati.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Stay up all night thinkin that shit up?
Just for you ex animo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8
You don't know your history, do you? Business men and politicians with their hands in each others pockets are the definition of political pork.
Have you never heard of Tammany Hall
Or
Thomas Nast?
You are full of shit.
I don't get paid by the hour.
I own my business I know that cutting your taxes only means you won't be at work monday when you are needed.
Although after reading what you have posted here I don't think you have the skills to do the job!
Willy Nilly?
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/fredgraph?s[1][id]=BORROW
Graph from the St. Louid Fed. Reserve research showing total borrowings from the Federal Reserve.
Is *that* willy-nilly enough for you?
For Reference, this is what the chart looks like excluding 2008. Note scale on first graph went to 800 billions of dollars, this one only goes to 20.
Feel the willy-nilly yet?
Here is your M1 money supply. Here is your M2. Correct that M3 was discontinued.
Yes, the Fed. publishes numbers. Why no one looks at them when arguing about them is anyone's guess.
Are you high?
Tax cuts?
That dawg don't hunt.
you are out of your fucking mind.
You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
I hate you ignorant bastards!
Unless you were simply trying to prove that in absense of a logical rebuttal, the best you can do is name-calling. Way to make your case against tax cuts! No wonder this is practically just another circle-jerk for liberal outrage.
as a knee jerk reactionary. Trickle down has taken us to where we are. Screw the rich.
And ronnie reegun!
hate yourself?
lower corporate tax rates? bwahahahaha, fucking stupid
howzabout we get the corporations to actually PAY their taxes...
"A GAO report showed that 61 per cent of US corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1996 and 2000"
and you want to lower the corporate tax rate? how? maybe instead of taxing them we should pay them? eh?
http://www.counterpunch.org/sainath01232009.html
They want rebates!
I thought he said he wanted the President to fail. When did he make a proposal?
Because the people also willed that tough, necessary questions be asked of Bush, and the people were called "traitors."
It's how the system works??? Are you friggin' serious?? The RepubliTARDS are EXPERTS at fiddling while ROME BURNS!
And here all this time I thought it was diddling.
They have diddling down to a science...if they believed in science.
Unless your david vitter, then it's piddling.
That's fuckin funnier'n hell!
Lord save us from the true believers!! First if you can't run a business and pay workers enough to live and still make a profit then your business need not exist. If paying workers a minimum of $12 an hour is to much then fold your business because what it is your making is not viable in the "market place". Second the "Market Place" I am speaking of is the United States. We make the rules and we are the worlds big consumers. If US companies have moved their manufacturing overseas to take advantage of slave labor wadges and nonexistent environmental laws putting a tariff on those companies so it is no longer profitable to take advantage of conditions overseas they will come back to the US. It is not Chinese companies that we are competing with it is American companies that are competing for the bottom of the poorest wadges. I agree we cannot keep spending money that we don't collect in taxes but the biggest lie is that lowering taxes on business makes more jobs and more revenue for government. Supply side economics is dead, DEAD, but there are millions of true believers still out promoting it.
These treasonous bastards want to see President Obama fail. That is the goal, not serious discussion, nothing bi-partisan about it. Whenever their "leaders" order them to vote against the stimulus bill, regardless of what that bill is, it's pretty obvious that the Repugni****s would rather lose our country than help a Democrat.
Fuck 'em raw.
Finally we have a President!
The GOP has been allowed to dominate and frame this issue for far too long. Maybe Obama finally told Emmanuel et al to put a cork in it and that he is the one in charge?
Rhetoric is easy...
Actually kicking McConnel in the nutz is another mater entirely.
I won't believe a word of it til I see Mitch clutching his nutsack and groaning in agony...
...and he would kick Larry Craig in the mouth at the same time.....
And the Zinger of the day award goes to.....Matt in Texas ladies and gentlemen!
Not all listened.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...
Just what in the fuck is your problem with me?
Don't beat around the fuckin bush, just say it and let's be done with it.
...with their leadership if they don't want to work with him.
..AND APPOINT A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO LOOK INTO THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. Maybe if hold some of the collective feet of the people who got us into this mess to the fire, they might realize this country is serious about who is running things and how we must succeed before there is no country (economically) left.
The President is SPOT ON! It wasn't the Democrats that got us into this; IT WAS REPUBLICANS LIKE RUSH AND BILLO THE CLOWN AND BECK AND JOE AND JOHN AND SARAH AND WOLFIE AND RUMMY AND TURDBLOSSOM AND DARTH CHENEY AND CONDI AND BOEHNER, ET. AL.
Why must we bother to even listen to them now? Doing the same thing over and over again only to fail each time is the definition of insanity, isn't it?
They are serious about one thing: Republicans since 1980 are serious about destroying government, about making sure government is not allowed to work for the common good. They are not serious about solving real societal problems. To destroy government, they'll destroy society if they have to. That's why they are in favor of amassing huge deficits. That's why they privatize as much government as they can. That's why they engage in combative rhetoric that does no good for anyone. I wish Democrats and their sympathizers would get serious about stopping them. "Bipartisanship" doesn't work with people like that.
Very nicely stated. You are most definitely correct that "bipartisanship" does not work with these people. I called both of my senators just this morning with messages to that effect. No more compromise, no more "let's make nice". It's time to push back. Hard.
And I absolutely agree. Pete Sessions just fessed up to looking to the Taliban for a model for the Republican insurgency. He said they are really good at dirupting process.
Raw, Raw, Raw....that's the spirit.
pete sessions is my representative, and I've been trying to vote him out for years.
explaining to Sarah Palin or Florence Shapiro why the Burkha is a nice fit.
... should be shouted from the rooftops.
God, if a Dem had said something like that, he'd be tarred and feathered and run out on a rail -- by noon.
As Mike Malloy says, the current GOP has to be dismantled. Destroyed. Killed. They are the clear and present danger, right here within our borders.
One day he's Dubya part II, the next day he's Abraham fucking Lincoln. "Keep those feet to the fire" good job.
Giving credit where credit is due, and criticism when Obama's actions warrant it.
It is harder than marching in lockstep or thinking in terms of absolutes though...
You won Obama, you're the President. It's OK to start cracking skulls now. "Bipartisanship" is only getting you a hearty F.U. from the rat bastards that got us into this heap of shit. The good news is, you an tell them to go to hell now.
Obama is just now experiencing the full depth of the neo-con ideology and it's pissing him off,...finally.
this is obama. this is what i expected from him. the (R) has been postering because they want an identity.
the (R) may show they're incapable/don't want "bipartisanship". obama is giving them a chance to be involved but their answer/strategy is lowering taxes........that's NOT going be enough. this is why i voted and firmly believe in obama.
He honored his pledge during his campaign to give Republicans a chance to follow his lead. He needed to gain the moral high ground first. Oppps I'm out of kool-aid.
He did not say he would keep his hand out until they bit it off.
yes, most of the bill is needed and will stimulate the economy
but the pet projects need to be removed...even if they are a miniscule part of the overall bill
if it takes pet projects to pass a bill...let it die
we must change the culture of dc...and that includes payoffs to congressional districts
...they're not used to a President who wants to get something done NOW and not in 8 years (or never).
Wrong. The wingnuts standard is 50 years. Hadn't you heard?
Beautifully done. I believe we are seeing the beginning of the greatest Presidency of a generation.
Just can't tell you how happy that makes me to see him shove the facts down the throats of wingnuts.
Oh, and davidfarrar. Please go fuck yourself. We've had enough right wing stupidity as policy.
...at just how easy it is to get you libs [Stop it right there. "You libs" is my least favorite conservative meme. Then ice is incredibly thin at your end of the pond, Mr Animus-Sitemonitor]
Your "message" has been disproven over and over again, both in this site and in reality, but like Einstein's definition of insanity (as well as inanity), you just keep digging.
Repeating the same trite arguments over-and-over again doesn't make one a winner by endurance alone.
Also playing the victim card is both the last act of desperation, or the first act of the lazy.
right wing troll. LOL.
You do realize that 99% of your posts are puerile attacks, right?
O'Reilly feature that word last night?
Grandpa made our ears bleed last year with that tired ass Ronald Reagan just cut taxes bullshit while people were losing everything. Thank you for being you.
Login or Register to post comments.