Tiller assassination is now the subject of a federal investigation
By David Neiwert Friday Jun 05, 2009 2:00pm
Well, you had to figure this was coming:
The Justice Department on Friday opened an investigation into the killing of Kansas abortion provider George Tiller to see whether the accused gunman had accomplices.
The department will investigate possible federal crimes in connection with Dr. Tiller's slaying at his church on Sunday in Wichita. State prosecutors have already ruled out seeking the death penalty against the accused gunman, but federal prosecutors did not rule out doing so as they announced their own investigation.
"The Department of Justice will work tirelessly to determine the full involvement of any and all actors in this horrible crime," said Loretta King, head of the department's civil rights division.
Anyone who played a role in the killing, she said, will be prosecuted "to the full extent of federal law."
The sound of sphincters clenching from people like Randall Terry and Cheryl Sullenger could be heard for miles and miles.
You can read the text of the DOJ release here.
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glad to know the DOJ is going to act on something we care about.
Good thing waterboarding isn't off the table.
The total inaction of the FBI and local law enforcement in spite of all of the criminal activities of this man is a total disgrace! They are as much to blame for this as any accomplices Tiller might have had...
I hope this tragedy moves them to be more aggressive towards the demented enemies of these doctors, nurses and centers...otherwise this is bound to happen again!
And more charges against inciting murderous acts like this by the various "pro life" groups should be pursued, investigated and indicted!
FBI, my ass!
Where was the FBI all this time? Disgraceful!
How many incidents of this kind of incompetence does the Obama DOJ have to experience before all of the buried Bushies are removed from government?
You intended to say... [Scott P. Roeder] didn't you?
See: "They are as much to blame for this as any accomplices Tiller might have had..."
I could be wrong... we all are some times. Based on your overall comment prompted me to question the discrepancy. Nevertheless... thank you for your contribution and your time. √
Any true and honest investigation will look into the hate on FAUX and BILL O and his twenty eight calls for the good doctors head. The Christian Taliban like James Dobson and his Focus on the Family should not be left out of the equation anymore than the Rainbow Rescue or whatever the other anti-abortion hate mongering terrorist organizations. Murder is murder.
You beat me by about 7 minutes
Look at what she can do with a good story. No flash. Just straight, high quality journalism. Maddow has plenty of reasons to be proud of herself and her work.
4 or 5 days after you last saw that mare runnin' down the road.
Oh! I didn't know a barn door had the same sound as a butt pucker! Now I know. :P
...would have been a much different show had they swapped in butt puckering for that shooweesh-ing sound.
XD
probably doesn't recall that he remembers any scuttled DOJ investigation during the Bush unlightenment era.
Regarding this matter, I hope the DOJ will also look into Bill O'Reilly's involvement in incitement to commit murder.
These three hate warriors clearly aided and abetted, and bent the sick mind of that violent psychopath Roeder.
This offer not available in some states, not applicable to American right-wing terrorists, some restrictions apply.
And engage in the war with RW extremists to protect the people.
"The sound of sphincters clenching"......heard for miles and miles?!
It stinks something bad all over this one.
A day late and a dollar short. Apparently these people weren't to concerned of Dr Tillers life under the Bush administration. Even more blood on his hands. This man should have been serving three years in jail under the FACE act before he had the chance to assassinate Dr Tiller. This should have never of happened. I'm sure Cheney will blame it on Clarke.
No, Clinton (as usual.)
Yeah, I'll bet it would be difficult to pound a needle in their sphincter with a sledgehammer>
A stunning mental image, CK.
lolz
That's a visual I could have done without.
"Assassination" is a term to designate the killing of a political figure, elected or otherwise. The good Dr. Tiller was not a politician and the appropriate term for his death is "killing". A tragedy, no less. Small point but, as an author, you would likely be sensitive to language use. Anyway, great to see the DOJ showing some self-awareness re their mandate. Kudos to you on your recent publication.
And, before I forget . . . Fuck you, Dick Cheney.
as·sas·si·nate (ə-sās'ə-nāt')
tr.v. as·sas·si·nat·ed, as·sas·si·nat·ing, as·sas·si·nates
1. To murder (a prominent person) by surprise attack, as for political reasons.
2. To destroy or injure treacherously: assassinate a rival's character.
as·sas·sin .
Assassin:1. One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person.
2. Assassin A member of a secret order of Moslem fanatics who terrorized and killed Christian Crusaders and others. [French from Medieval Latin assassºnus from Arabic ¡/a šš³šºn,pl. of¡/a šš³šhashish user from ¡/a šºš hashish]
Notes: At first glance, one would be hard-pressed to find a link between pleasure and the acts of assassins. Such was not the case, however, with those who gave us the word assassin. They were members of a secret Islamic order originating in the 11th century who believed it was a religious duty to harass and murder their enemies. The most important members of the order were those who actually did the killing. Having been promised paradise in return for dying in action, the killers, it is said, were made to yearn for paradise by being given a life of pleasure that included the use of hashish. Hence, the name for the secret order as a whole, ¡ /ašš³šºn, “ hashish users. ” After passing through French or Italian, the word came into English and is recorded in 1603 with reference to the Moslem assassins.
Amended: →[ http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/older_and_u... ] :-P
Listen to the clip at around the [01:00] mark, regarding assassins.
Posted by, David or as some may say...
"Neiwert"→ http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/fbi-h...
The FBI and law enforcement most certainly could have done more to prevent this. But with the huge number of wingnut kooks in this country, I doubt they will ever be able to stop sickos like this wackjob.
I expect this to get worse. Just like the Al Qaeada nuts, as the people tune them out and marginalize them, the crazier and more psychotically bloodthirsty they become.
With rightwing radio and Fox noise blairing out subliminal messages 24/7 to the most remote corners of Wingnuttiaville, these psychos will be in a constant state of paranoid psychosis, and ready to act on those impulses for years to come.
The modern conservative: Angry, stupid, ignorant, irrationally detatched from reality, and armed to the teeth. And we thought the economy sucked? These are our fellow citizens. Yikes!
Wouldn't it be hilarious if a bunch of them went overseas over the weekend?
Let me give th Justice Dept. a hint on where to start:
Just doing my share to help.
She is seriously disturbed and very scary.
It's time for her to go back to The Big House for a nice long stay.
As the authorities have a reasonable suspicion that she was involved, they can get a subpoena for her records. Will they do it?
the Feds are actually going to investigate and enforce the freakin'
Laws?!! This calls for a celebration.... and an even bigger one after they convict all these creeps.
**glasses clinking**
There's a new sheriff in town.
And his name is Eric Holder.
I couldn't resist.
Only a TERRORIST would dare KILL IN A CHURCH! That's murdering GODS sanctuary(spirit) and murdering GODS worshipper. Only a "republican-heathen" would follow O'Reily,Terry and Sullengers voodoo to enter into a Church and murder someone. They are Terrorist's. They are Republican Taliban (All republicans,that's what they called themselves a month or two ago). Don't use any southern FBI. Use American FBI and investigate and prosecute to the fullest extent of GODS law......Investigate! Investigate! Investigate!
The Boo-Joo
Radical Christian Extremists. If they read this, they'll think it is a compliment.
We'd call the cops on these nutters often. We'd provide videotape and photos and the police would do nothing when the Antis violated the FACE act. The police's excuse was that since they didn't see the crime, first hand, they couldn't do anything.
Last time the Antis went to Tiller's church they got arrested, but I believe the charges were dropped. The Antis are allowed to get away with just about anything (except murder it seems).
They actually spouted that horseshit? So I guess they never arrested anyone for burglary, or rape, or murder, or embezzlement, or anything else they didn't see?
Clearly you were talking to rightwing fuckbags who AGREED with those assholes. There are more cops than you think who are fine with things like that.
Keep in mind, law enforcement does not create the law, and they do not create prosecution philosophy. They simply live with it.
For most misdemeanors, the law requires either on "in view" situation where the officer actually observed it, or the actual victim must sign the complaint and appear in court. Felonies do not have that same requirement.
And the police do not get to decide what will be prosecuted and what will not. That decision lies with the prosecutor, district attorney, or attorney general (depending on the charge and the jurisdiction). No matter what the crime is, and no matter what the officer's personal opinion, if the prosecutor has said "I will not file charges unless we have A, B, and C," then the officer doesn't a whole lot in the way of options.
bears a surprising likeness to Jeff Dunham's puppet Walter. Seems appropriate that somebody has their hand up his ass making him say and do hateful things.
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.
I wonder how hard it is to steer someone who is...not well...into doing things they might not have thought of themselves?
they should water board that guy and find out what he really knows! I bet he'd confess Operation Rescue was behind the whole thing!!
a criminal in jail. He says he only acted against a corrupt government. He's not ever going to be entitled to an insanity defense.
"A corrupt government", huh? So he fights against the government by killing a doctor in a church? How about he take his little guns and goes into a FEDERAL BUILDING and tries that shit there? They'd take him down in three seconds.
PUSSY. That's all these rightwing hate-mongers are. Pussies.
Randall Terry=0. Universe=2
Cheryl better scarf down all the Happy Meals she can while she can!
For information on this matter has been taxing this past week, but I want to know what the drudge / red state take on this is. Essentially the thrust of the progressives is to label this terrorism. The thrust of the conservatives is to label any constraint to anti-abortion groups as a violation of the first amendment. I must say that I agree with both to an extent. The idea that people could be stopped from saying anything for the good of the population is very scary to me.
I hope it is scary to you as well.
There is a gray area in which declarations of intent have to be looked at. The potential for violence exists in most groups who dissent, and I believe that their ideas should enjoy the same freedoms that mine do, ESPECIALLY when the ideas are MINORITY ideas. I believe we don't need to do anything to combat these ideas beyond, calm logic and reason. I hate to say it, but there seems to be a parallel between the idea of 'preventative detention' and 'controlling hate speech'. The slippery slope argument is usually the last grasp of a logic-less idiot floundering to scare you, but in this case I think we need to look a little closer. Yes this woman (op rescue zealot) is creating the potential for bad things to happen (as is Bill Orally, Limbaugh, etc), but is it criminal? I really don't think it is. Morally reprehensible, sleazy, manipulative, exploitative, and in very bad taste, but so are a lot of things in our society.
Gluing doors shut is criminal. Attempted bombing is criminal. One was prosecuted, and one was not. The lack in the case of the accused murderer should be the red flag for progressives, not whatever idiocy Bill Orally happens to spout night after night. It is sad, imho, that this man's murder has become a rallying cry to curb the freedom of speech in this country. It could be a rallying cry to enforce laws such as the FACE act. Maddow should be commended for this segment. Well done.
If it inspires murder it certainly is a crime. Your argument is specious, and that's giving it more credit than it should get. I am trying to be polite, when I actually feel like making you cry. Have you heard where free speech ends? You know, yelling "fire in a crowded theater." Do you know what conspiracy to commit murder is? Controlling hate speech? Prosecuting hate speech is what should happen.
People who think in terms of hate need to control their own speech. What one says in private is one's own business. Hate speech is not acceptable in public.
You can be arrested for simply threatening to kill someone. I know of someone who was. Is that free speech?
I don't believe it is. There lies my interest - the broad definition of hate speech.
It's assault.
depending on the circumstances in which it occurred.
?
But it's not always an easy charge to prove.
It has been argued that Marilyn Manson is guilty of inciting the massacre at columbine. Do you agree with that analysis? My argument is specious? The beatles song Helter Skelter inspired murder through Charles Manson and ultimately his followers.
Please make me cry.
'People who think in terms of hate need to control their own speech.' That's a great concept for the fantasy land where crazy people have self control. I am interested in what the crime is, and the means of prosecution. I am not into any speech that promotes violence, but just because I am not into it, doesn't make it illegal.
I do know what conspiracy to commit murder is. I know exactly where free speech ends, and Rush and the rest of the crazies have NOT COMMITTED A PROSECUTABLE CRIME. I am more interested in the term 'hate speech' and the gray areas surrounding it.
Many things inspire many acts, and it is the acts that need to be prosecuted. This isn't a macho contest for me, I am genuinely interested in what people (you) have to say about this subject because I feel it needs to be discussed. If you have a response, please be respectful so we can exchange ideas instead of immediately resorting to name calling.
Free speech is not a right nor license to say whatever one wishes in pubilc. Not surprisingly, laws have been passed to deal with libel, slander and inciting violence/chaos. That is, free speech carries with it a large dollop of responsibility and, in some cases, the courts must decide if someone has spoken irresponsibly or not. Tough call, admittedly, but until someone comes up with a more just and fair way of handling matters, that's the way it is.
Thanks for your calm demeanor, and insightful comment.
"...in some cases, the courts must decide if someone has spoken irresponsibly or not. Tough call, admittedly..."
That's what I'm concerned with, the 'tough call' portion of your comment. Why don't we have a more specific definition of hate speech, and more legal tools to prosecute it?
What songs by Marilyn, whom I do listen do, did he say shoot up any school?
did he. Also, he is an entertainer, not an alleged journalist or an activist collecting money for his "cause." Charles Manson is a murdering psychopath and used the Beatles song to bring his madness into the 60's. He was older than most of his followers, and probably should have been wearing his Lucky Strikes rolled up in his white t-shirt sleeve. You want to cry, try this: controlling one's hate speech is the law, not some fantasy. Only someone not too smart thinks that there are absolutes. There is only one--there are no absolutes. You think you know where free speech ends. Why don't you tell the rest of us and end the debate forever, oh enlightened one. Some lesser minds might think that it is situational, but if you know the truth, tell us. So you admit that "Rush and the rest of the crazies" have no self control? A good step in the right direction. People without self-control should not be allowed to spew their hate onto the public airwaves. Remember that corporations do not own the airwaves, regardless of what Rupert Murdoch pretends. Well, I have enjoyed this little chat. You are my first personal toll. Awwww. I will remember you Strza.
and I am sorry for you. I am, most likely, in complete agreement with you about this specific case. My questions are not trying to steer the dialogue toward anything but the question of civil liberties. That's my interest and my concern. I believe they are valid concerns & your nasty demeanor is not helpful.
In the subject line I am responding to, you used the word 'intent' in regards to Marilyn Manson. That's all I'm concerned about:
Who decides what intentions are at the core of speech? Is Limbaugh hoping to inspire maniacs to go out and murder? Is Orally? Or Scarborough? Are they just hoping to get ratings? Is it ACTUALLY about intent, or is it really about the RESULT? I don't know, but instead of immediately getting angry, you could have a substantive conversation with someone who has an interest in learning about the subject. You seem to assume I am interested in what idiots like Limbaugh have to say in any but a sociological way, and you are dead wrong.
'controlling one's hate speech is the law, not some fantasy. You think you know where free speech ends. Why don't you tell the rest of us and end the debate forever, oh enlightened one. Some lesser minds might think that it is situational, but if you know the truth, tell us.'
Free speech ends wherever the courts determine it to be 'hate speech'. The truth is that every single prosecutable case will be handled differently by individual courts because the language used in defining 'hate speech' is so vague and expansive. That's what I am interested in and what I am trying to open a dialogue about. Unfortunately you're reading some imaginary right wing agenda behind my questions. They're just questions, calm down.
Oh, and Rush Limbaugh isn't an entertainer? Has his show become the journalism of record while I wasn't looking?
Not me. And for some people, Rush's blather is the "journalism of record." Let's go back to Manson. He did not physically participate in the Tate-LaBianco murders, yet he was held accountable for them as he inspired and conspired with respect to them. Rush, and the others should also be held accountable for crimes that occur because of their hate-speech. Your right-wing bias is seen in your use of all caps while trying to defend the hate-monger. Do not tell me to calm down and try to belittle my opinion by calling me angry and commenting on my nasty demeanor. If you had any kind of an argument to make, you would not spend your time criticizing me. Sometimes the law is purposefully vague to allow interpretations for specific situations. Strict black and white interpretations lead to totalitarian governments. And the result often proves the intent. Intent that goes no where is just free speech. Intent that results in murder is a crime. When one has access to the public air waves, one has a higher standard of behavior to live by. Especially if you know your audience consists of "dittoheads" and others too lazy or incapable of thinking for themselves and incapable of critical thinking. It is a supreme irony that Rush claims to want people to be individuals, and then proceeds to tell his dittoheads what to think. It's also interesting that Murdoch's daily talking points are also Rush's talking points. Rush is a rich white man who cares only about himself. If you haven't already done so, go read "What's the Matter with Kansas," by Thomas Frank. You have to question the intelligence of people who hold beliefs about the government that do not benefit them, but hurt them. No wonder rich and powerful people have so little regard for the commoners. And finally, you are right--I am angry. I just lived through eight years of sleazy, dishonest, psychopathic behavior by the Bush Administration. That was enough to piss-off the Saints. And I am definitely not one of those.
"If you had any kind of an argument to make, you would not spend your time criticizing me. Sometimes the law is purposefully vague "
What worries me is the broad language "...to allow interpretations for specific situations." surrounding the term 'hate crime' If you watch the rest of the segment we're posting about they even acknowledge that this can be very delicate in terms of civil liberties.
That's all I was interested in discussing.
I won't use all caps, if you associate that with trolling ditto heads. I doubt a ditto head could put together a cogent defense of free speech in any case.
You think I am attempting to defend Limbaugh, or Hannity, or any number of idiots on the right. I am not. I am also not trying to argue with you. Do you notice how I am asking questions, attempting to open up lines of communications? I would like to communicate with you, not at you.
"When one has access to the public air waves, one has a higher standard of behavior to live by."
Since when? What imaginary popular culture have you been watching for the past 26, 27 years? American Idol, Who Wants To Marry A Millionaire? CNN, Fox, & MSNBC are a joke to me. What higher standards are you talking about? Higher standards that equal not having a direct link from programming to murder? That's a higher standard?
The rest of your post goes from Rush Limbaugh and his audience, to the Bush administration, to a book by Thomas Frank, to the rich and powerful people, and doesn't seem to have anything to do with the subject of 'hate speech' or abortion, or Tiller, or censorship.
I am sorry you are angry. Anger, and irrational responses to things we don't understand has led us into Iraq, the patriot act, guitmo, human rights violations (torture), wiretapping, abu ghraib, and finally to the murder of Dr Tiller. I am positive that the anger will not lead us anywhere worth going, so let's leave it at that.
I am sorry I upset you.
A jury.
He did that himself with his idiotic feud with michael steal.
Sat, 06/06/2009 - 02:24 — Strza
and I am sorry for you. I am, most likely, in complete agreement with you about this specific case
___________________________________________________
That's about as insightful as those religious sort who try to end a debate with, "I'll pray for you," which is shorthand for saying, "I don't want to admit I don't have any further arguments."
That's in addition to condescention with the intent of inflaming the auditor.
issues that need to be discussed here, and your comment has zero substance. In fact you could say it is "about as insightful as those religious sort who try to end a debate with, "I'll pray for you," which is shorthand for saying, "I don't want to admit I don't have any further arguments."
Well put, but without merit. My comment went on from there to attempt to open a dialogue about Tiller, about censorship, about the role of media, popular culture, the culpability of that culture, the definition of hate speech, and the overwhelmingly childish responses to my original post.
It looks like no one here is interested in having a dialogue about anything, just shoving their point of view down your throat. You know what you are when you've closed yourself off to the possibility of being wrong? When you're incapable of processing new or different information?
A Fox News viewer ;)
Dialog? All you want to do is insult people. Go away. You bore me, with your pseudo intellectual babble.
so you think that the vast majority of rappers should be charged with a crime? I can virtually guarantee that they have inspired more murders and crime than any of the people being discussed in this thread.
one feels about the terrible way some people have been treated for many years is not a crime. That is free speech. Not to mention that rappers are entertainers. Big difference between the arts and reality. Even rappers who cross a line in the public's opinion suffer the consequences called the free market. Let me add this to your statement, "I can virtually guarantee that they have inspired more murders and crime than any of the people being discussed in this thread." You mean so far.
does it, its hate speech but if a minority does its because they have been oppressed....
And your first sentence could easily apply to pro-lifers also.
You can't have it both ways, if you want Beck, O'reily, Limbaugh etc prosecuted, you should want the rappers and anyone else prosecuted also.
Oh and can you point me to anything any of them have said that equals this.
"Cops on my tail, so I bail till I dodge them,
They finally pull me over and I laugh,
Remember Rodney King
And I blast his punk ass
Now I got a murder case . . ."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv_Y1kbZbJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE2Vdcv9Q_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzsL99OO8_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irp8CNj9qBI
we should ban the Beatles also and charge the surviving members with hate speech along with all the producers and record companies and radio stations...
Art and reality are two different things. If you have a rant, please just come out with it. Don't bounce your beliefs off me.
in this subject is about hypocrites, Beck et al are promoting crimes with hate speech, but when others blatantly promote murder, robbery etc, it is simply "art"
And can you tell me how "Making known the anger one feels about the terrible way some people have been treated for many years is not a crime." Does not apply to pro-lifers? They are simply making know the anger they feel about the way the unborn babies have been treated for years.
If there are unborn babies does that mean there are undead corpses?
thats a terrible thing to say about Terry Schiavo.
;)
Ha!
Why does it bedoubt me you would believe a minority defendant who said in court that the rap culture in which he was raised caused the crime he committed?
My only point with the musical links I provided was the singularity that your example came from a black artist, and not a particularly timely one.
Are you an officer of the He-Man Woman Haters Club, Timjoebillybob? You should have been named "Dick." Why don't you go communicate with Strza. You both are just interested in spewing your right-wing venom. You're boring me, too. Go away.
Incitement to commit a crime has ALWAYS been illegal, and rightly so. Nobody has the right to encourage criminals, sorry. The First Amendment was never intended to protect murderers.
Whole swaths of popular culture in America are dedicated to nothing else but encouraging criminal behavior. I am glad you feel you know who the first amendment was designed to protect, but I don't. It must make the legalities surrounding this much easier to understand. I'll confess I do not.
each and every line of the Constitution. I assure you, it was not just a crap shoot.
Operation Rescue, among others, has been known to make statements targeting specific individuals, including Dr. Tiller. Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, among others, have done the same thing. O'Reilly claims that he is the "fair and balanced" voice of reason - he certainly gives the impression that he wants his viewers to listen to him and follow his 'advice.'
They have spent years saying the Dr. Tiller is a mass murderer who should be stopped by any means available. They said that anyone who doesn't take action against the doctor is as guilty of murder as they say he is. O'Reilly even flatly suggested vigilante behavior against Tiller (before the faux retraction along the lines of 'oh yeah, can't say that').
There IS a difference.
Depending on how the hypothetical law was written, of course.
I'm not talking about making the speech itself illegal, on the face of it. I'm talking about there being consequences, though, if someone acts on your speech to commit a crime.
Civilly, some of these right-wing groups are probably already on the hook (and I hope Tiller's family file a massive suit and taken them to the cleaners, just on general principals). It's the same legal principle that allowed the Southern Poverty Law Center to bankrupt a Klan group.
Some of these pro-birth groups, and some of the right-wing pundits, did everything but draw a target on Tiller's back. We're talking people who specifically said that someone should do something about Tiller, that he should be stopped at any cost, that anyone who didn't attempt to stop him was just as guilty as Tiller himself. O'Reilly referred to vigilante action.
It's not much different from the cliche "shouting fire in a crowded theater." If someone did that, and someone in the theater died in a stampede of panicked patrons leaving the theater, would you say that the person who started the stampede was innocent of any crime? Or would you believe that he/she should be punished?
shortcomings is the first step. Good luck with your recovery.
"I believe we don't need to do anything to combat these ideas beyond, calm logic and reason."
Really not trying to be a smart ass but, you just disqualified most of that type.
There is nothing logical about their position. How do you reason with the unreasonable?
Even by God's standard a fetus IS NOT a person. They want to bring every fetus to term and then abandon it afterwards. Hell we are all born with bootstraps, right? Pull yourself up fetus!
not the violence, or legally determined 'hate-speech'.....
I agree the majority of people can not have a calm discussion about this subject. No one seems to be open to new or different ideas.
Unfortunate.............
the Bush administration and the constant reminders of their dirty work brought to you by Cheney and spawn and the laws made by them that still exist. And you are just recycling old right-wing crap. New and different ideas. Riiiight.
view on anyone who doesn't agree with you. I am not recycling old right wing crap. I am actually recycling a lot of Frank Zappas ideas from his testimony on censorship.
When I say new and different, I mean to you, because you obviously don't get it.
What makes you think that citing Zappa makes you right? Wow, you sure put me in my place. It's not that I don't get it, I just don't agree with you. Can't handle that, eh?
Dr. Tiller's family with ideas. Maybe that will make him less dead to them.
Dr Tiller's family with your anger. I am sure that's helping out like gangbusters. Are we done scoring points off each other yet?
You couldn't argue your way out of a preschool.
... a bit of waterboarding, yes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ9oHd_tySI&fe...
Waterboard! Waterboard!
CLANG!!!!!
Since NSA is still gathering electronic communications in the US, the DOJ should have no trouble getting a warrant for the exchanges between OR and Tiller's assassin.
If the death penalty is left open as a possibility, it's likely to make these horrible people shit in their shoes.
Didn't Bush set the example of not NEEDING a warrant? IT is not a very far stretch from these two wackos having multiple conversations to one of the wackos killing the object of their hatred. Did they conspire? I don't know but would you be surprised if they did?
Yes, Bush did set that example, but I think Obama has said his administration won't explore those records without warrants. This is the perfect time to do it.
And no, I wouldn't be surprised by anything that transpired in those conversations.
Maybe we'll finally get a chance to take down that disgusting organization. Bunch of vicious cowards.
So do we really think that Operation Rescue and similar organizations, along with individuals like O'Reilly actually will be charged with aiding and abetting terrorism or with inciting to violence? Better yet that these organizations might even be formally declared to be the terrorist organizations that they are?
At least not until we take the government back from the corporations who own it now. We need action, not just bitching.
One more thing. Now that Obama is president, are we just going to yak and let him do all the heavy lifting? One person cannot do it alone.
I wouldn't call anyone with Rahm Emanuel at his back "alone".
I was thinking about all of the people who voted for him. Protests, e-mails, boycotts, etc. We need action. We have to confront the corporations, and take their profits away from them. We should also limit the term for presidents to one 6 year term. No reelection allowed. Therefore, they would not have to immediately start banking donations for the next run. They would not be beholden to those who contributed to their campaigns. Rule Number 1 of Power: No one EVER gives it away. If you want it, you must take it. I am not advocating violence, just in your face right back at you action. Don't buy corporate food. Don't fall for phony illnesses like the latest "Low T" syndrome. Low testosterone syndrome. They can no longer poison women with hormones long after nature intended, so they are going to try to maintain their profits by poisoning men who are just naturally aging? Enough. Fight back. Single payer. Demand it.
Here is some information about Scott Roeder that I haven't seen elsewhere.
He was a ticking time bomb, and I think there are many more just like him out there. Every single one of them should be tailed and watched by the FBI -- they tend to congregate in groups of like-minded people, and the Southern Poverty Law Center keeps a tally of those hate-groups. America needs to deal with its domestic terrorists. Their numbers are increasing alarmingly.
But realistically, there's no way that the FBI, or anyone else, can follow/watch every one of them.
Indited.
For.
Acts.
Of.
Terrorism.
What if he has tom delay's lawyers?
if you can sue the KKK and take their land and their cruddy little hovels, we should sue these groups that are equally culpable for enabling the murder of Tiller. enuf said.
Go after O'Reilly's millions, and shut him the fuck up once and for all.
"Two Billboards Go Up in Kansas!"
Snip: "March 25, 2009"
"A 14x48-foot billboard bearing Charles Darwin's iconic image and the words "Praise Darwin: Evolve Beyond Belief" went up yesterday on W. 21st and Tyler Rd. in Wichita, Kansas. The billboard marks both the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin, and the 150th anniversary this year of the release of Darwin's landmark work on evolution, Origin of Species.
Another14x48-foot billboard, emblazoned with a John Lennonesque message, "Imagine No Religion" with a stained-glass window backdrop, is going up for one month at 600 North Topeka Bridge in Topeka, Kansas."
→[ http://ffrf.org/news/2009/topekawichita.php ]
MSNBC'S Joe S. in 1993 volunteered & represented, pro bono,
Michael Griffin, the murderer of Dr. David Gunn, one of the first two victims killed
by right wing wackos.
Dr. Gunn was shot 3 times in the back as he was walking to his Women's Clinic
in Pensacola, Florida.
Now I understand why the Morning, Joe Show on MSNBC only mentioned for 3 seconds
during a 3 hour show, the killing of Dr. Tiller.
The doctor's murder was NEWS everywhere but at the Morning Joe Show.
Why?
If they had discussed the hateful murder, possibly Joe's involvement would
have been discussed too.
They couldn't risk it.
I'll bet Starbucks is thrilled to be in partnership with the Morning, Joe Show.
BITTER!
The feds need to round up all these terrorists of the Right wing-nutO's, religion fakers, hate monguering, murderers and put them in prison for life.
Actually it's always been normative that the law can prosecute ill-chosen words that instigate crimes. If a guy untruthfully or even as a prank told another guy, "Hey there's a man at your house having an affair with your wife," and the other man picks up his gun, goes home and shoots an unwary Fuller Brush man trying to sell her some cleaners, both men are liable for charges, even though one was only words.
There's even more precedent now. Whenever the government is building a case against a "terrorist," they do so by seeing what he's been buying and watching. As one pointed out under boosh there's now a precedent for warrantless searces, but even beyond that is the use of NSL's. One can be arrested for refusing to go along with the NSL or informing their patron that someone is investigating them. Those are just words too. There was even the DA of Kansas trying to witchhunt private medical records for any indication that abortions had been performed on the underage.
I'm not advocating boosh style investigations, but until they're officially overturned, and/or those responsible have been prosecuted they are the precedent.
Above thread most people are engaging in a combination of correct legal thinking mixed with wishful thinking. The nay-sayers are using a combination of "slippery slope" arguements and speculative questions outside the purview of this particular topic, while utilizing a combination of Argumentum ad Reductio and Argumentum ad Abstractum, whatever serves their purpose at the moment in a game of Ignoratio Elenchi.
Addtionally networks who allow such speech, and even their sponsors, are opened up along with the party who issued the offending language to civil suits, since there's less burden of proof in civil suits--only a preponderance of evidence--as per the Constitutional right of the people to petition the government for redress of grievances (Amendment I).
Interestingly that would pit three Amendment I issues at the same time before the court in this case, that of religion, that of government (court) redress and that of commercial speech.
I've suggested on DKos that perhaps Drs like Tiller should have professional bodyguards-trained killers shadowing them in order to shoot these bastards before they can strike. Do you folks think that's inciting? I don't want to incite violence, but I'm so angry over these events that I want one (or many) of these people crushed like the fucking cockroaches they are.
I've also suggested that we should have a "Screaming in Outrage" campaign directed at the idiots who run the local FBI in KCMO, and I notice a number of folks posting comments early in the thread who'd probably agree. Probably more effective than getting out the guns, perhaps some clever C&Ler can give us a list of folks we can bury with an angry letter storm.
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