Torture and the rule of law: Did Bush just call Democrats' bluff?
By David Neiwert Wednesday Nov 26, 2008 10:00am
Rachel Maddow had Jonathan Turley on yesterday to discuss the Wall Street Journal story reporting that the Bush administration had no intention of issuing pardons for the people involved in its torture operations because they don't think it's necessary.
And what Turley observed should be alarming to anyone concerned about whether or not Democrats are going to have the spine to return the U.S. to the rule of law -- by, among other things, holding torturers and the people who enabled them accountable:
Maddow: So the White House says now, at least to the Wall Street Journal, that they are not likely to pardon anyone who might have implemented or taken part in these torture policies because they believe that their Justice Department memos excuse them, so there's no need to pardon anyone. Are you buying that reasoning?
Turley: No. I don't believe that anyone seriously believes in the administration that what they did is legal. This is not a close legal question. Waterboarding is torture. It has been defined as a crime by U.S. courts and by foreign courts. There's no ambiguity in it. That is exactly why they have repeatedly acted to stop any court from reviewing any of this.
And so what's really happening here is a rather clever move at this intersection of law and politics. That what the administration is doing, is they know that the people that want him to pardon our torture program is primarily the Democrats, not the Republicans. The Democratic leadership would love to have a pardon so they could go to their supporters and say, "Look, there's really nothing we could do. We're just going to have this truth commission, and we'll get the truth out, but there really can't be any indictments now."
Well, the Bush administration is calling their bluff. They know that the Democratic leadership will not allow criminal investigations or indictments. And in that way the Democrats will actually repair Bush's legacy, because he will be able to say, "There was nothing stopping indictments or prosecutions, but a Democratic congress and a Democratic White House didn't think there was any basis for it."
There's been a certain amount of dismay expressed by progressives over the past week or so about Obama's emerging Cabinet and the lack of any real liberals within his administration so far; some of this is reasonable, some of it excessive.
But if Turley is right, and the Obama administration and congressional Democrats do what they've been doing all along -- going along to get along, and putting politics over principle -- when it comes to confronting the reality that torture was conducted under American auspices, then the resulting uproar and outrage will be fully deserved.
The campaign is already under way. In this morning's Washington Post, Jack Goldsmith -- who was up to his neck in the torture dealings, but who also made a principled stand against the policies -- launched the first effort to shoot down not just any prosecutions and indictments, even any "truth commission" at all.
So Democrats and Republicans will beat their teeth over it for a few weeks, agree to set up a toothless "truth commission," and let these war criminals walk slowly away.
It's going to be up to the public -- the ordinary citizens who want the black stain of torture removed the national fabric -- to remind their spineless representatives that torture is torture, war crimes are war crimes, and the rule of law requires those who flouted it to face the consequences -- go-along-get-along politics be damned.
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Was not the Congressional Democratic leadership briefed early on? As that may be, they have a problem.
That problem will not go away as the sad history of this era is written.
For me, that was when the man lost his lustre. When he said Ok to telecom immunity.
My suspicion is that he will be as spineless as Reid or Pelosi, and there will be no accountability for the crimes of the previous administration.
I say this based on the fact that Obama is a constitutional scholar, and still let the Bill of Rights get trampled on by the telecoms.
If he is that spineless, it is my fervent hope that the people turn on him, big time, and DEMAND the change they were promised.
When Obama voted for the telecom immunity, it was like a guy who's trying to join the Mob- you gotta whack a guy to prove you're really down.
Remember when he had that 'secret meeting' with Hillary in D.C. late in the primary? I can't remember if that was before the vote or not, doesn't really matter I guess. But I can't help but wonder who was really there and what was discussed(the conspiracy theorist in me needs to know!)
Point is, I think he needed to throw the kingmakers a bone in order to get the gig. Just thinkin'.
although i voted obama, i have low expectations of real change under his administration. but not to prosecute tortue? that will rather more difficult to watch... (tho his cabinet picks are making the whole unfolding of disappointment a daily practice!)
I doubt if Bush could get away with pardoning unspecified people for unspecified crimes no one has been indicted for, so the pardon speculation was likely bs anyway. Second, if the evidence exists and the political support and/or pressure is there for investigations and prosecutions, the administration and the American people will be best served by the appointment of a Special Prosecutor. Obama doesn't have to be involved.
Beyond that, Obama has already stated his support for bringing America into compliance with international law, which could mean foreign indictments of US war criminals.
Bush and company are toast, but the "old" media won't know it until it happens, and they'll be freaking out because they watched the crimes happen and hardly raised an eyebrow over it.
but isn't rule of law, good government? Bringing to justice those who shredded the constitution? That would be good government and some protection against abuses in the future?
That is the "only" oath the prez takes. to serve and protect the constitution of the U.S. If they don't do that, then the republic is finished, this ain't rocket surgery kids, there's some fundamentals have to apply.
If all of the repubs at the time and those dems who supported this end up in jail, so be it. It'll be a shock, maybe the one that'll finally stop these clowns that get elected from doing illegal and immoral things.
If it doesn't happen, then another revolution that will be a lot bloodier and more devastating is coming sooner or later. It won't happen right away, probably in reality about 25-35 yrs from now, but the opportunity to save a future generation that horror is here, now.
sheesh!
It makes me sick that the Obama admin is not going to prosecute anyone involved in the torture. We elected the man so he would restore the rule of law. So he would restore America's honor. To hold the Bush admin accountable for the crimes they committed. During the campaign Obama said "if you commit a crime, you should be prosecuted". I guess that only applies to us little people, not those at the top. Thanks Obama, thanks for nothing.
anyone who believes you can have a war and not torture captives for misinformations a dreamer, with the comeing bush er sorry obama surge in afganistan prisoners will get the same treatment they allways do, prisoners will be exicuted by pissed off soldiers who had a buddy killed , and since no one questions the need for more and bloody useless war in afganistan the war criminals will get by with it! thier are no clean wars only dirty politicians!
I agree that it's time to move forward and we need to focus on getting things done but at the expense of bringing ANY of these assholes to justice, ever? I don't think that's wise AT ALL.
Not to mention that allowing these slugs to slither away merely allows them to regroup and legitimize themselves for their next return.
Take care of them now or they will be back to poison everything again.
Any progress they achieve by pushing forward without taking care of the festering wound that is the shrub co. crime family administration will be lost when they come slithering back from the slime.
If Obama doesn't bring these torturers to trial, then he should be impeached!!
(Do I get credit for being the first to suggest our new President's impeachment, even before he takes office and before he has even made a judgement on prosecuting these scumbags? This should make the Obamabots' heads explode!)
...just being an ass?
This is a serious issue.
It just means you're part of the lunatic fringe and can safely be ignored.
BTW - full disclosure - I supported Hillary over Barack.
Part of the 'lunatic fringe' for suggesting that president should be impeached if he doesn't defend the constitution? Full disclosure, you're an idiot.
the Constitution!
Your parents are idiots for not aborting you.
C'mon, L&L - you're much too intelligent for these kind of personal attacks. I realize you're very passionate, and that's a good thing. But name-calling is over the line.
I'm quiting while I'm ahead(Off to mom's to steal some early thanksgiving food!).
Have a good one!
Hillery would be no different.
Sorry, Matt, you're not the first. Shrieking fuckwits have been calling for his impeachment for committing the cardinal sin of being elected.
You may be the first to come up with an actual reason though, take some comfort in that.
Calm down, folks. While I certainly want these torturers prosecuted, I was also poking a little fun at BOTH Obama "true believers" AND Obama haters.
Also full disclosure: I voted for Obama.
"(Do I get credit for being the first to suggest our new President's impeachment, even before he takes office and before he has even made a judgement on prosecuting these scumbags? This should make the Obamabots' heads explode!)"
People who use the phrase "Obamabots" are the dumbest people.
Oh puh-LEEZ. Is this the most intelligent phrase you can use - "..the dumbest people..." ???
Your lack of insight - and perspecitve - is sad. Did you not see the post (just above this one!) that mentioned I was poking some fun?
Geez, dude, get a life!
As a former Constitutional law professor, Obama will send the DOJ after these criminals....period. No reason to jump into the toilet with these turds.
Wanna Bet ?
If an objective investigation is done, some Democrats (Pelosi, Reid, Harman, Feinstein etc.) will be thrown under the bus with Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld etc.
Which would be FINE BY ME!!!!!
We must realize that it will HAVE to be a Bi-partisan investigation.
This is a cleansing the Constitution needs not only for the Republic, but to set us somewhat straighter with the rest of the world.
WWDKD?
Brilliant (and I'm assuming you men "What Would Dennis Kucinich Do? correct?).
A mantra I actually truly live by.
of Dennis Kucinich is that he is viewed as being such a radical "out there" liberal, when the reality is, he simply represents what our founding fathers wanted for us.
It's another symptom of our decay that the right has so tilted the playing field that Kucinich would be viewed so negatively by so many.
Quite true! During the primary season, a poll was done to see which candidate most accurately reflected the views of most Americans. The overwhelming winner, leading the pack by something like 55% to (the next closest candidate)at 30%? Dennis Kucinich. But the corporate media didn't want him, so they sold us Obama, Hillary and McCain.
I just read Scott Horton's article in Harper's detailing setting up a "Truth Commission".
Waste of time. And sadly, the Dems don't have the balls to investigate and prosecute, partially because some of them would be implicated.
The only "justice" the Bushies will face will be in the historical record. After Jan 20th, lots of insiders will step out into the light of day and expose just what was really going on in BushWorld. We'll see a rash of books and Sy Hersch articles detailing the abuses.
Any investigation cannot be bipartisan. Nothing will get done if the Republicans have any say. Therefore, since the Democrats will have to run the investigation anyway, why not use any investigation to tar particular Republican politicians and whitewash any Democrats?
There is so much to fix and so little bipartisanship. Whatever the new administration does, the Republicans will oppose it. The Democrats do not have 60 Senators and are not filibuster proof. Politics is the art of the possible.
If political gains can be made from inquiry and prosecution, then the new administration should do it. If, on the other hand, nothing would be gained but the waste of political capital and distraction from other necessary initiatives (removing Bushco illegal appointees, health care, economic stimulus packages, etc.), then no investigations/prosections should result.
Personally, I think that starting a "truth" inquiry and leaving open the possibility of prosecutions may be the way to maximize political gains. Republicans who oppose Democratic initiatives too determinedly can then be added to the investigation and put under fear of prosecution.
Bipartisanship sounds good until you look at how it has consistently been deployed as political actions. Pelosi used it as an excuse to shield Bush from any and all accountability, to such extent that she is criminally complicit as an accessory after the fact in the Bush regime's crimes. Harry Reid used "bipartisanship" as an excuse to cave at every opportunity to the rubber stamp Republicans. Joe Lieberman used "bipartisanship" as an excuse to self-justify his many acts of self-serving, pathological opportunism and the numerous acts of betrayal of his constituents, his party. The Republican caucuses view, and self-righteously demand, that "bipartisanship" be made manifest as a strictly one-way street, in which they get everything they demand and the Democratic side gets absolutely nothing. Corporatist Democrats and Blue Dog Democrats use "partisanship" to excuse every conceivable kind of act of complicity, corruption and abdication of their duties and responsibilities.
And what has been the impact of all this "partisanship" co-operation? We need only look about us to see. An abandonment of the rule of law. Despotic rule in lieu of governance. Rampant and unprecedented criminality by government and its alleged servants. Government conducted on the model of applied sociopathy. A single-minded attempt to rape and eviscerate our precious Constitution. FISA. The Patriot Acts. An end to Posse Committatus. The end of Habeus Corpus. The Military Commissions Act. The Homegrown Terrorists Act. Ubiquitous law enforcement, undertaken and deployed as a weapon against the American People. We are approaching the point of no return on the path to converting this nation into a totalitarian, despotic police state. We have nearly completed the process of converting all American citizens into American subjects.
I have had my fill of "bipartisanship". If this latest issue is approached as an opportunity to secure political gains, the entire nation loses. If we reduce ourselves any further by choosing mere political expedients over principles, or choose the findings of mere political calculus above doing the right thing that we know must be done, we will only be extinguishing more of our hopes for survival as a nation of free people. There is precious little wiggle room remaining, and the clock is ticking.
There are some things that should never be tolerated. War crimes are one of them. George W. Bush has just placed a giant monkey on Barack Obama's back. If Mr. Obama, whom I voted for, does not assume a major, steadfast leadership role to assure that justice is done, he is going to squander an ocean of credibility at home, and every last bit of it abroad. There is no place remaining behind the shield of "bipartisanship" in which to hide, and the whole world is watching intently. If he cannot summon the will or the moral courage to do what must be done, he should at least co-operate unreservedly with the international community's emerging efforts to obtain justice. In that regard, behaving as a repsonible member of the the world community is a truer for of "bipartisanship".
When Pelosi took impeachment "off the table", I knew they were never going to do anything to hold this bunch accountable. I hate to see them all just walk away with their pockets stuffed with the taxpayers money, able to live out the rest of their lives high on the hog while so many have suffered from their horrible policies.
The worst being all of the soldiers injured for life, their marriages destroyed by long deployments, children without moms and dads, parents whose children will never return. For what?
One thing we've learned about Bush from the time he entered politics is he thinks the rules do not apply to him. Will someone please prove him wrong?
You're right about Pelosi. I'm sure she took her illegal action in order to cover her own butt for her own acts of criminally liable complicity. Well, in the long run, nobody escapes justice.
In addition to all the lives of our military that have been lost and ruined, don't forget the 1.4+ million Iraqis dead, millions mained, ~6 million refugees. There have been no winners here, except for Bush's co-criminals. They cannot be allowed to remain as winners.
It's Obama's moral duty to prove not only Bush, but Pelosi and all of the complicit congress people wrong. If not for the love of justice, then at the very least, to discredit and shame for all time the idea of the acceptability of rule of government by applied sociopathy.
Maybe Obama is buying into the line that we're a center-right country (where torture is acceptable)? I don't expect Obama to be all things to all people, but if there's no accountability for the Bush torturers then America has permanently lost a part of its national soul. That said, I am willing to let Obama take office and, you know, actually govern for a while before tarring him with the "just like Bush" label I've seen from some on these threads.
Whichever Obama is, if these criminals are allowed to get away with their crimes, the next Republican to take office may well complete the coup that Bushco started. Failure to uphold the rule of law is just another symptom of a nation in decline.
I just can't believe that Obama really thinks that failure to prosecute these assholes will result in reasonable Republicans in congress.
I too voted for Obama, but it was a lesser of two evils choice again. It appears he will slow the decline of our country, but he has no intention of reversing it.
I rarely post here anymore becuase it was just such a waste during all the election propaganda but I have said for YEARS here that NO Democrat will restore the rule of law PERIOD. No one will go to jail PERIOD.
There is only one Party with two labels and it make NO DIFFERENCE if you drink Coke or Pepsi. Once the lid was clamped down on Kennedy in 63, the country was lost.
Just watch. I told you so. All of you.
Wrong. Coke's delicious. Pepsi sucks.
RC Cola. The maverick's choice!
Yah - you betcha! Me an' John McMaverick are just a-drinkin' it, darn tootin'!
All that caramelized, artificially colored rotgut just tears my stomach up!
I loved you until you said that.
Pepsi RULES!
The worst of all of this is not just our tarnished name on the world stage, but that it sets a precedent that it is acceptable. The spineless dems have already set a precedent which gave the POTUS (and his dark hearted VPOTUS) more power than any president deserves.
The GOP hasn't gone away, they are simply plotting their next takeover...and they now have precedent on their side.
Site Monitor: keep an eye on this Pepsi-loving heathen!!
If I didn't agree with her politically, I'd nominate her (and her P-word-loving ilk) for banishment.
RC drinkers are OK, just confused.
You cokehead, you.
Banish me for having, by far, more taste than you. WhatEV! ;-)
reasonable Republicans in congress
THERE IS NO SUCH ANIMAL
That is why they won't go prosecuting.
If Reid and Pelosi truly wanted to serve their country, they would bite the bullet and go to jail in the interests of restoring the Rule of Law.
But I wouldn't hold my breath on that.
If C&L became Obama's biggest critic.
The thing that isn't funny is the differences, the contrasts between the democrat and republican party are disappearing.
There's a lot to talk about there.
Nothing will change anywhere until ...
9/11 is addressed in a serious way and for that to happen Kennedy has to be addressed, know what i mean jelly bean?
Plus check out this interesting bit of info. I discovered today about the Kennedy Assassination:
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/nixonruby.htm
Plus, I'm sure everyone's already well aware of this:
http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/executiveorder1...
[Let's keep it on topic. I'll delete this comment if I find it turning the thread into a Kennedy thread-Sitemonitor]
and let the World Court sort them out. They won't even entertain a motion that it was in anyway legal.
Bush has the Hague covered with legislation passed that prevents any US personnel from being tried for war crimes.
Those fucks will not be able to travel outside the US, without putting themselves at risk.
Ask Henry Kissinger when he'll be visiting, Paris -- hell, anywhere in France ever again.
powerful and evil individuals who are watching the behavior of the American people -- how accepting they are of torture, bailouts, FISA immunity, and all the rest of the crap.
These powerful and evil fucks now know for sure that they can get away with ANYTHING.
Dark days are ahead.
And no one in power will stop it because they are all part of it.
Even if they are unwilling participants. I'm not letting anybody off the hook, here, I'm just being realistic. Our political system is a snakepit. We have a slim hope in the Obama Administration that some of it will be sorted out, but for now I am still savoring the possibility of real progress.
Meh. I can't really beat down on pessimism. I'm right there with you.
Yeah, even a wiff of the notion that those monsters may not see justice is doubleplusungood, but get a hold of yourself, folks. I know you all think if you were in Obama's position you'd be kickin' in teeth and spankin' th' evil doers, but I can't even imagine the labyrinthine, boobytrapped mess the Bushies have left for him to sort out. Here's what may be the news (and I will be very happy to be wrong wrong wrong):
These people got away with it a long time ago and there may be nothing Obama can do about it, in my most decidedly inexpert opinion.
And frankly, calling the average politician a coward or spineless because they don't do what you imagine you would do in their place is ridiculous. You really think it take a true coward to win office of any kind in this country, at this juncture? Liars, thieves, crazy people and unprincipled scum run wild and free in Washington, but I would bet there are very few cowards.
If your opponent is beating you with his jump-shot, you don't adjust for his layups. These people are politicians. Shit, that's often WORSE than just being a coward.
(basketball analogy not meant to be a direct swipe at our Prez Elect, whom [full disclosure alert] I couldn't have been happier to vote for)
Nice mix: basketball analogy and "1984" reference.
You know, I didn't even realize what an odd mix that was? I try to be a well-rounded person. Expert in nothing, amateur blathermouth on everything else!
Hey, I want Obama and his people to do good. I am just trying to be realistic about how much they can actually do as far as this matter is concerned. Politicians...they get away with this shit all the time. It sucks, it's maddening, but we all know it goes on every day. Hell, I would have voted for my father or my junior college US History II professor, but neither was on the ballot, dig?
The place abounds with moral cowards who are always ready to choose expedient over principle. Congress is full of them.
Did they?
... punishing the Bush crowd is less important than undoing the damage they've wrought.
I'm not saying they shouldn't be held accountable and thrown in jail like the criminals they are, but revenge has to wait. We've got a broken government and a trashed reputation to fix.
(Though, if we'd not been so stupid as a country as to 'elect' and 're-elect' the Frat Boy in Chief, we wouldn't have a trashed house to clean up the day after.)
In all seriousness, and practicality, you're probably correct. We need to undo the crap and reestablish a sense of honor in the world. Then focus on punishment, and go after the criminals as relentlessly as we can. They should NOT be allowed to go without at least being prosecuted.
But in the spirit of what everybody here is agitated about, there is no reason we can't in the meantime TRY to get Obama moving on this.
Agreed.
... one or the other, as some Democrats (Hellooooooo, Nancy Pelosi) will doubtless spin.
I think we can and must do both. We amend/strike the laws supporting torture, reaffirm not only our own legal principles but those shared among important allies in the international community, and then - put the bastards responsible on trial.
And I'd like something other than a pass-the-buck show trial. None of our reforms will mean a thing if they're not backed by teeth and a willingness to hold our leaders accountable.
.
Was it called revenge when Charles Manson was put on trial and convicted?
Your use, er abuse of the English language is strange.
So, what exactly does accountability mean to you anyway? If punishment for the crime is called "REVENGE"...
How do you expect to fix a broken Republic if in doing so you fail to punish those who trashed it? Doesn't that failure... er, HASN'T that level of apathy allowed this Republic to become trashed, already?
Sorry, I dis agree.
The next time someone hits you with their car, or breaks your front window, remember this, according to you, pressing for accountability of those that violated your space or vehicle, is called "REVENGE". Accountability be damned, NO? Sorry, but with that frame of mind, is it a wonder the TAX PAYERS are paying to defend Alberto Gonzales's ability to lie to Congress? After all, actually holding him to tow the line of "REAL ACCOUNTABILITY" would require him to pay for his lie, but that's now called "REVENGE"?
The Republicans chided the Dems back in 2004 about Bush and the initial invasion of Iraq. As illegal as it was, the Republicans called it "REVENGE" for the impeachment of Clinton...
... Funny echo, NO?
.
What would our Founding Fathers advise us to do as loyal Patriots to the Constitution and the rule of law??
Anybody who believes there can be change by using the two party, private financing of campaigns system is a fool. The system is setup to be manipulated by private interests... no matter who the candidate or politician is.
Look up the Hegelian Dialectic, here's a brief look... http://www.fhu.com/hegelian.html
Its the same principle that Naomi Klein deals with in her book 'The Shock Doctrine'. It boils down to "Order out of Chaos". The same phrase passed on to Masons when they achieve the 33rd degree... "Ordo Ab Chao", the "royal secret". For reference, all shriners are 32nd degree masons... hence the hookers and scandal that follow them.
First it was terror, now its the economy... those in the know realize its a game whereas the truly powerful are pulling the strings, with the end goal being one currency, one government... and a chip in everybody's body... check out the interview with producer with Aaron Russo who got it directly from one of the Rockefeller's mouths...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=12636...
"...all shriners are 32nd degree masons... hence the hookers and scandal that follow them."
So you mean that when they drive those little cars around in parades, they're actually lookin' for action?
Covet the cars.
Those boys have MAD pull that we can't even begin to touch.
;P
no, they're looking for souls.
the least fearful statement for rethugs and corporatists in DC is: the dems are coming. it only results in a lot of yawning and wristwatch-looking.
and, as many others have said, it is hard to expect the dems to hold bush accountable for illegal: wars, domestic spying, torture, etc. when the majority of dems are complicit in helping all of these crimes come to life.
don't expect the new admin to do anything that rocks the establishment's boat (see, change) without vocal and active pressure from the left and grassroot orgs.
... was their shoot-yourself-in-the-foot approach to running a marathon. They routinely conceded the point before making any argument, mistaking criticism of warrantless and illegal surveillance with 'you can't do any surveillance,' and objections to torture as 'you can't interrogate a prisoner.'
the little pissant idiot son makes a mess, breaks the law and gets away with it.
Typical trust fund baby...no brains, no skills, skating through life on his daddy's reputation and his family's money and influence.
Since - according to Bush - Iraq's going so well, Obama should hold to the spirit of bipartisanship - and appoint Bush ambassador to Iraq.
Since the State Department did the same to their junior officers, insist that Bush go.
And live in the same makeshift quarters as the junior officers did, since the embassy is overbudget and late.
"In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk . . . . With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan). Individual lawmakers' recollections of the early briefings varied dramatically, but officials present during the meetings described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp...0801664_pf.html
It's not a matter of "intestinal fortitude" on the part of Democrats. It's a matter of complicity.
You're right... the dems need to be thrown in jail too. I think Malcolm X once said, I have more respect for a person, even if he's wrong, if he comes out and says what he believes than a person who sneaks around like an angel but is nothing but a devil.
...and a matter of conspiracy. All parties involved should be indicted and incarcerated.
C'mon, Dennis, give 'em hell!
As I said upthread, WWDKD?
I'd have to know WHAT they were shown/told. Showing me a bunch of rooms and talking about interrogation does not necessarily mean complicity with waterboarding.
Though, as I mentioned earlier, Harman was one of those Democrats who came up with the 'we have to be able to interrogate prisoners' excuse, when the question was about torture.
"The Washington Post has disclosed sources saying that Democratic leadership, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, were told of waterboarding in secret briefings in September 2002. . . . The news would serve to explain why the Democrats have repeatedly act to protect the White House from a showdown on torture. . . . This also explains the failure of the Democrats to block votes that seemed to legitimate waterboarding and unlawful surveillance."
Jonathan Turley, 10/12/07
http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/10/
reasonable Republicans
in congress
THERE IS NO SUCH ANIMAL
Fixed it.
It is possible that the Dems knowing that Bush can pardon anyone and anything are acting like they are not interested so that if Bush leaves office without pardoning himself and others, they can hammer him.
*SIGH* but they won't.
There is no accountability in this country so mistakes will be repeated. They cover each other's backs.
You will see people in the world start demanding accountability like in Iceland and Bangkok.
No accountability has consequences.
trying to build a structure on a crumbling, rotten foundation.
Just won't work.
Commission of Truth to investigate lies?
Sounds Orwellian.
Who's gonna head it, this guy?
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k272/billys...
That's the ticket!
.....and HE probably drinks Pepsi......
Eeesh...yuck...
I'll take a crab-juice.
both of you!!
Honestly, some people have NO taste...unlike moi! (batting eyelashes furiously and patting self on the back)
As long as we don't get the Ministry of Truth, Love and all that, I am good.
Truth com can only work if the people are given immunity and that wont happen b/c that would require them to tell the truth and the ego wont let them. To be proven wrong is just to much for somebody like Cheany to admit to and that is why they will walk away scot free. The only hope that we will have to get justice for them is that some person overseas arrest them while they are there and then tried; also remember that the prez pardon does not cover crimes agianst foriegners abducted while out of the US, in a nutshell the German courts could try anybody in the admin, even after a prez pardon, for the abduction and torture of one of their citizens, it is our only hope.
He could write the final report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLBQxk72NY
Turley is right. Bush is throwing down the gauntlet. He knows that the Dems are too spineless to investigate, much less prosecute the torturers. All of those who said Obama was going to bring change are going to have to answer for this.
... SOP for Bush and his crowd? Something's illegal? Do it anyway. Do it again. Keep doing it.
What the heck do we expect from a frat boy who has been bailed out of every screw-up he ever made for his entire life?
I voted for Obama, but I knew this was going to happen, starting with when he voted for FISA and when he started making noise about expanding the unConstitutional "Faith-Based Initiatives". For a constitutional lawyer, he shows little regard for it. It also became clear that it would be business as usual when a gutless congress re-appointed Pelosi and Reid to their leadership positions a few days back. The more things change, the more they reamain the same.
The Obama administration is not going to be liberal or progressive. It is shaping up to be a straight-up corporatist entity, which in my book means it is going to be a Republican administration. It also means that the American People will continue to come last. If Americans wanted true change, they should have elected Kucinich. I'm wondering when people are going to figure it out that the only true center of our nation is the Constitution? If you are not working your utmost to defend and protect it, you are either a rightist or a leftist, but you sure as hell aren't a centrist. Obama is right of center, by a good measure.
Regardless, Congressional complicity or White House abdication of its moral responsibilities will have zero impact on international actions taken by, for example, the International Criminal Court at the Hague. I noted recently that the International Red Cross has opened a war crimes portfolio against Bush and crew, in order to compile evidence against this group for eventual war crimes prosecutions. This is only the second time in their history that they have done so, the first time being against Hitler, while he was the sitting chancellor of Germany. If we drop the ball, others will pick it up. The only difference being that we are the only ones with the power to begin scrubbing away the stain on our national honor. Nobody else can do it for us.
Call it what you like, but Obama would have a big problem trying to get his agenda passed while prosecuting some of the very people he needs to get that done.
It's not politics over principle...it's principles in conflict with one another. One being that wrongdoers should be punished; the other being that the economy needs fixing, health care needs fixing, and we need to get this quagmire in Iraq over with. That's not going to happen if the half the players involved are circling the wagons and lawyering up. You won't just be able to prosecute those that are out; some of the people who were aware of this and did nothing are, to our everlasting shame, in the Democratic Leadership.
We can sit behind our keyboards and wag our fingers all we want, but sometimes some hard choices have to be made.
Hmf! Nicely put.
As John Dean has noted, the government can do two things at once, and must when the issue is Constitutional duty. Are we to rely on mutual cooperation among torture enablers to save our country? Prosecution of such criminals and corrupt leaders is a necessary condition to saving the country in the many other ways in which we are in deep trouble.
Yes, hard choices have to be made, but the pursuit of justice is never a choice but a duty.
The government can do nothing while half of it is trying to put the other half in jail.
And John Dean, like all of us here, has the luxury of not having to govern.
It's not a good choice,in fact it sucks.
But it may be the only real one.
Such is the rationalization apologists were using two years ago for Pelosi putting impeachment off the table. It is false. Prosecution of crimes is Constitutionally part of the duty of "having to govern." It is not a political prerogative.
Prosecutorial discretion is also a well-established prerogative.
Not all crimes, yes, but high crimes and misdemeanors, which is what is at stake here.
Duty is not a choice. That's why it's called "duty".
Sometimes different duties are in conflict with one another.
The Constitution, Article II, Section 4:
"The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."
You sure are an ardent defender of war crimes.
That is sometimes true, but..sorry, JD...I'm not buying the argument in this case.
one can choose to not do one's duty.
of bush.
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Where is the debate in the Senate on the redeeming quality to being lied to? I want to see that debate so that I can know who, in the Senate thinks sending our troops to fight a war based on that lie, is admirable.
Where is the Debate from the Senate on the redeeming quality to being usurped through signing statements? I wish to know which Senators think the Legislation they pass can be over ridden by an Administration proving themselves obsolete.
Where is that debate from the Senate on the redeeming quality to violating the trust of the Republic in so far as protecting the Republic from Treason and Terror of an out of control Administration. I wish to know who thinks spying on the Republic is Constitutionally defensible and how outing a covert CIA Agent isn't an overt act of TREASON!
Where is the debate from the Senate as to the redeeming quality to breaking international Laws and Conventions. This way, other countries and Americans can witness who in the Senate think being a rogue country requires such a defense.
Where is that debate...!!!???
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Oooooooh, good one. Good perspective.
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Congressional Oath of Office:
http://clerk.house.gov/member_info/oathoffice...
Where in this Oath of Office does it prescribe that financial matters take precedence over the Rule of Law?
Does this Oath of Office give Congress a choice to either support OR defend the Constitution? What about option C) Neither?
This Nation was founded on Principles. Politics is what came latter!
Returning to the correct path from which the "POLITICIANS" deviated from requires that Principles become paramount, AGAIN!
It seems, however, Congress seeks to preserve their mental reservations about fulfilling their sworn Oath of Office and instead are attempting to institute regular acts of purposeful evasion at any Obligation. It seems the Good Americans(read apathetic) are content with as much.
.
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What good is a "TRUTH COMMISSION" if lawlessness that is revealed through this commission isn't punished.
REMEMBER:
Obama said he isn't interested in pursuing criminal charges...
If Obama insists on "returning to the fundamental practice of NOT engaging in torture," is he not admitting his knowledge that indeed, under the Bush Administration, Laws governing the use of torture have been violated and broken, that a policy was set and authorized and therefore needs to be abandoned so as to "RETURN TO" the Rule of Law? Then how can Obama not pursue Justice and claim to be pursuing the path that leads us back into the fold of the Rule of Law?
If Obama insists on acknowledging the need to "RETURN" from which America departed from, thus an admittance that Obama is aware of the level of the crime itself, it can not be ignored as this is the current dilemma America now faces. Should Obama choose to not seek investigations and consequential accountability for war crimes, it shall be seen as tacit permissiveness...
... That ANY President of the U.S.A. can be a war criminal.
Will Bush be seen as the sole guilty President, or will Obama inherit the banner of tacit permissiveness for such an allowance...
... That he too, as President of the USA is above the Rule of Law and therefore is absolved of any accountability for any transgression of the law.
The Rule of Law requires consequential accountability...
... for without consequences of lawless behavior one has anarchy!
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Will we ever learn. After his early view on FISA, I had that sick feeling, in my stomach. Now after the election, it just feels like we got suckered again, just wait for the no health care bullshit to begin, and that sick feeling will have to go untreated because I have no insurance.
I doubt if Bush could get away with pardoning unspecified people for unspecified crimes no one has been indicted for, so the pardon speculation was likely bs anyway. Second, if the evidence exists and the political support and/or pressure is there for investigations and prosecutions, the administration and the American people will be best served by the appointment of a Special Prosecutor. Obama doesn't have to be involved.
Beyond that, Obama has already stated his support for bringing America into compliance with international law, which could mean foreign indictments of US war criminals.
Bush and company are toast, but the "old" media won't know it until it happens, and they'll be freaking out because they watched the crimes happen and hardly raised an eyebrow over it.
There was a major dirt/smelly file on just enough (perhaps all in a conspiracy way) Congressional Democrats to stop any impeachment process, due to the possibility that the leadership group was informed about the toture process and they did nothing.
In a way, Peloisi, Reid et al have contributed to the repair of Bush's reputation by not even considering impeachment. As a consequence, Bush can say "they had the opportunity to do something, yet did nothing". If nothing comes of the indictment process, then the repair job will be near complete. Then the Republicanas can do a smear job along the lines of the "Clinton Chronicles".
where Bush got the idea the Dems would stand by and do nothing. Oh. That's right. Now I remember.
It's been obvious, to me at least, that this was the way it was ALWAYS going to shake out.
"We must not look back but look forward..."
"We must mend the nation's wounds, not pick the scabs..."
"Forgive and forget..."
I do not think any president can "pardon" someone who has NOT been convicted.
Truth Commission? If they agreed to theat, they'd be in effect admittingthey lied. NEVAGAHAPUN!
Nixon was never even charged criminally, much less convicted.
But I think it was a one-off, like Bush v. Gore, a kind of ad hoc thing, which Nixon negotiated as the price for stepping down.
It can be done again.
Wonder what would happen if OBAMA pardoned Bush, Cheney, Tenet, et. al.,saying explicitly that what they did was wrong and indeed criminal, but it was time to bind up the nation's wounds, etc. Would they turn the pardons down in the name of "preserving their legacy"? I doubt it.
Fun to think about but not gonna happen.
"It's going to be up to the public -"
the coordinated uncontested repetition of the talk radio monopoly from 1000 stations reaching a crowd the size of the one that voted in obama 24/7/365 will continue to determine what is and what isn't acceptable in america if progressives continue to ignore it - and no, the internet is not an answer to it.
This is precisely the reason we had a special prosecutor office created with Watergate. We had a President who said that if the President does it, it's legal. We had others who said, "Wrong!!" Eric Holder needs to find a highly respected Republican to appoint as Special Prosecutor to investigate war crimes. Then, if there are any questions, he responds, "I am not going to make this partisan--it is in the hands of the special prosecutor, who is charged with upholding the rule of law." There is no role for Congress--they stay out of it.
"...the resulting uproar and outrage will be fully deserved."
There won't be any of that, other than from the far left nutroots. We have already seen by his appointments that Obama doesn't think much of them.
by fellow Obama supporters. I so want him to do the right thing, for there to be real change. For him to do something concrete that matters for longer than the economic change, to make those who govern as responsible as the governed.
As I said with the lieberman debacle and now this, bush term 3, under way.
It's so sad. They're going to say the same s**t they said with nixon, "for the good of the country", when for the good of the country they should have jailed nixon and then what we've been through for that last 28 years, probably would not have happened. For the good of the country, lmao!!
Impeach Harry & Nancy!
Hmm. If the Bush administration makes no attempt to pardon its people over the torture issue, I believe that forces the conclusion that the practice originated from the very top. If GW Bush was not intimately involved in these orders, he is not personally implicated, and a pardon really would be an act of benefice, bestowed upon those who "acted overzealously" in pursuing his general policy of waging war on shadows. It would keep his people out of prison, and also signal acceptance of a degree of personal responsibility (by taking a further permanent reputational hit) for excesses. While care for underlings and taking personal responsibility are not characteristics of the man, some of the people likely to be affected are peers, and closing ranks with his fellow ... patricians without a cause ... most certainly is one of his most glaring tendencies.
If, on the other hand, he was up to his manicured elbows in the offal, any pardon becomes an immediate license for the recipient to tell all. In some nations at some times, the horrifying extremity of the implications for the political establishment might serve to quash vigorous pursuit of such stories. But, ah, that is not the case in America today: the infotainment sector (which now seems to embrace most of what passes for televised news broadcasting) is hungry for lurid raw material, and is more than happy to convert even events with no point or purpose into popular fable, if the content is only sufficiently disgusting. Euphemistic phrases for torture are not sheer boot-licking apologia; they are also a way of flagging a mystery, and every follower of 24 is anxious to take a peek behind that curtain, if the "experts" are ever willing to divulge their secrets.
This, of course, would make legal action against those further up the chain (no pun intended there) inescapable. If there is any quality that GW Bush has in greater quantity than a tendency to close ranks with his fellow patricians without a cause, it is a fearful and craven selfishness.
Personally, I would never have doubted GW Bush to be a cheerleader for the pointless infliction of pain. He just strikes me as that kind of a guy. But it's interesting to reflect that these developments may be a sign that he is feeling truly frightened and cornered. I sure feel sorry for him, and I hope people are nice to him at his eventual funeral.
... I found Congress.
Dude, that's an insult to jellyfish everywhere.
This action demands a concerted effort of relentless pressure. I a going to be writing to my representatives immediately on this issue, and plan on sending them a letter every day until I die or the sun burns out, but in order for this to be effective someone HIGH PROFILE, like a popular website, needs to take the point. Increase the volume AND the pressure will increase exponentially.
We're doing something to start the war crimes trials!
Can you help by clicking on this link, watching our trailer and passing it around the internet?
http://www.thetorturermovie.com/page/TRAILER.html
I ask anyone interested to please take a moment to read my essay regarding holding the war criminals in the Bush "administration", and the Democratic leadership who have been directly complicit, accountable to justice. It can be found here:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Eyes-Wide-Sh...
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