Yet another 'sovereign citizen' leaves his bloody mark on the American landscape
You all remember how the Right freaked out last year over that DHS bulletin for law enforcement warning that the nation was looking at a surge in right-wing domestic terrorism -- the kind of trend that always has lethal consequences for law enforcement personnel.
They were especially freaked out over a single footnote in the bulletin:
Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.
The report further detailed some of the antigovernment belief systems it was warning about, and how they would exploit the current circumstances:
Historically, domestic rightwing extremists have feared, predicted, and anticipated a cataclysmic economic collapse in the United States. Prominent antigovernment conspiracy theorists have incorporated aspects of an impending economic collapse to intensify fear and paranoia among like-minded individuals and to attract recruits during times of economic uncertainty. Conspiracy theories involving declarations of martial law, impending civil strife or racial conflict, suspension of the U.S. Constitution, and the creation of citizen detention camps often incorporate aspects of a failed economy. Antigovernment conspiracy theories and “end times” prophecies could motivate extremist individuals and groups to stockpile food, ammunition, and weapons. These teachings also have been linked with the radicalization of domestic extremist individuals and groups in the past, such as violent Christian Identity organizations and extremist members of the militia movement.
The bulletin, it turns out, could have been describing Jerry Kane.
C&L was one of the first news organizations to report that last Thursday's shootout in West Memphis, Arkansas, involved a far-right extremist named Jerry Kane and his 16-year-old son Joe, acting evidently on the paranoid belief systems they had been traveling the country promoting.
Now more details are emerging about Kane. And the portrait that is emerging is one that's becoming all too familiar: Yet another "sovereign citizen" radicalized by far-right belief systems, fully convinced that the American government and its laws are illegitimate, which gives them the right to act beyond the law.
And once they move beyond the law, anything is possible. This is why we've seen so many "sovereign citizens" acting out violently now, from Scott Roeder, the killer of Dr. Tiller, to James Von Brunn, the Holocaust Museum shooter, to Jerry Kane. This is also why we're seeing so many police officers -- seven in the past year alone -- mowed down by these far-right radicals.
The first firm details came an Associated Press report that described some of Kane's wanderings and previous brushes with the law:
Jerry Kane, who used the Internet to question federal and local government authority over him, made money holding debt-elimination seminars around the country. He had a long police record and had recently complained about being arrested at what he called a “Nazi checkpoint” near Carrizozo, N.M., where court records showed he spent three days in jail on charges of driving without a license and concealing his identity before posting a $1,500 bond.
Sheriff Gene Kelly of Clark County, Ohio, told The Associated Press on Friday that he had issued a warning to officers on July 21, 2004, saying that Mr. Kane might be dangerous to law enforcement officers. Sheriff Kelly said he had based his conclusion on a conversation the two men had had about a sentence Mr. Kane had received for some traffic violations.
Sheriff Kelly said that Mr. Kane complained in 2004 about being sentenced to six days of community service for driving with an expired license plate and no seat belt, saying that the judge had tried to “enslave” him. Mr. Kane had added that he was a “free man” and had asked for $100,000 per day in gold or silver.
“I feel that he is expecting and prepared for confrontations with any law enforcement officer that may come in contact with him,” Sheriff Kelly wrote in his warning to officers.
On an Internet radio show, Mr. Kane expressed outrage about his New Mexico arrest. “I ran into a Nazi checkpoint in the middle of New Mexico where they were demanding papers or jail,” he said. “That was the option. Either produce your papers or go to jail. So I entered into commerce with them under threat, duress and coercion, and spent 47 hours in there.”
Mr. Kane said he planned to file a counterclaim alleging kidnapping and extortion. “I already have done a background check on him,” he said of the arresting officer. “I found out where he lives, his address, his wife’s name.”
According to the the Knoxville News, Kane's seminar videos included threats against federal officials:
Jerry Kane traveled the country with his son giving seminars on what he called "mortgage fraud" and offering advice on foreclosure strategies. A website promoting those seminars provided a trove of information -- audio files and YouTube videos and links to various documents -- detailing his world views.
One particularly chilling YouTube clip involves Kane fielding a question about a "rogue" Internal Revenue Service agent: "Violence doesn't solve anything, OK. It's not violence that we're after. The Bible even tells us that if you're going to go and make war against somebody, you have to kill their sheep and their goats and their chickens and their babies and their wives. OK?"
In the YouTube video he said, "You have to kill them all. So what we're after here is not fighting, it's conquering. I don't want to have to kill anybody, but if they keep messing with me, that's what it's going to have to come out. That's what it's going to come down to, is I'm going to have to kill. And if I have to kill one, then I'm not going to be able to stop, I just know it."
In that video, he and Joe joke about using a bat to "take care of" a problem with an IRS agent.
The SPLC's Mark Potok describes the precise stripe of Patriot ideology that Kane was selling:
Redemption theory varies across the country but arose in the Patriot movement, which generally sees the federal government as an evil entity involved in various conspiracy theories aimed at ordinary Americans. In its best known version, redemption theory claims that every U.S. citizen has a "straw man," or secret legal twin, that the government uses to capture the economic value of citizens unknowingly sold into slavery to a banking cabal. Redemptionists often claim that by filing certain documents individuals can reclaim their sovereignty and the money that was deposited into a special account at their birth. Kane appeared to be teaching a variant of the theory that supposedly allowed people who have lost their homes to foreclosure to get them back at a fraction of their value.
In addition, the My Private Audio site, apparently written by a friend of Kane and his son, talks about how Kane was pulled over in New Mexico last month for not having a driver's license. Many Patriots who call themselves "sovereign citizens" do not believe they are required to carry driver's licenses, pay taxes, or obey most laws. The site also carried other signs of Patriot beliefs, including discussions of implantable microchips and the Council of Foreign Relations, an object of much Patriot conspiracy theorizing.
The New York Times has more:
In 2002 and again in 2004, property owned by the Kanes was foreclosed on, according to court records, and the health department sued him twice. In 2007, Hope Kane died of complications related to pneumonia.
By then, Mr. Kane was already involved in what the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center, which study hate groups, call the Patriot movement or the “sovereign citizen movement,” extreme groups that believe the government has no legitimate authority. The van Mr. Kane was driving was registered to the House of God’s Prayer at 132 W. Main Street, in New Vienna, Ohio, a vacant building that is owned by an aging white supremacist.
J. J. MacNab, an insurance analyst and expert on tax and financial frauds who has closely watched sovereignty groups for a decade, said she had found 141 vehicles registered to that address under different names, including several church names, indicating that people were probably using it as a way to shelter property from the I.R.S.
...
Jim Jenkins, a former mortgage broker in Seattle who attended one of Mr. Kane’s seminars in April, said that Mr. Kane had been largely congenial, but that his anger had flared when he recalled a traffic stop earlier that month in New Mexico. Mr. Kane was arrested and jailed on charges of driving while his license was suspended or revoked and concealing his identity.
“He was very upset for quite a while about the New Mexico stop,” Mr. Jenkins said, “because he didn’t believe you need a license to travel in the nation’s highways. That that is a right of every American, not a privilege.”
In a clip from an Internet radio show, Mr. Kane accused the New Mexico officers of kidnapping him from a “Nazi checkpoint” and said he had done a background check on the arresting officer. “I found out where he lives, his address, his wife’s name,” he said.
In a video of one of his seminars, which was removed from YouTube over the weekend, Mr. Kane responded to reports of a zealous I.R.S. agent by twice suggesting that she be found and beaten up. Joseph said, “If you pay for the bat, I’ll take care of the problem.”
Mr. Kane also referred to a earlier problem with alcohol, saying: “I don’t want to kill anybody but if they keep messing with me, that’s what it’s going to come down to. And if I have to kill one, then I’m not going to be able to stop. I just know it, I mean, I have an addictive personality.”
Ms. MacNab said Mr. Kane had first appeared on her radar about four years ago as a promoter of the debt-elimination program run by the Dorean Group, whose leaders have since been convicted of fraud and conspiracy.
Two years ago, she said, he resurfaced as the leader of his own seminars. Seminars of this type usually teach that each person has a real self and a “corporate self” that is a fabrication of the government, and that banks cannot legitimately lend money that belongs to their depositors.
“It’s mumbo jumbo; it’s magic words; it’s abracadabra,” Ms. MacNab said.
Ms. MacNab said that Mr. Kane had competitors far more successful than he, whose seminars might command audiences of 250 people at a time.
At Mr. Kane’s last seminar in Las Vegas a week ago, for which he charged $300 per person, only six people attended.
As we explained back when the controversy was raging, the DHS report wasn't an attempt to "silence" mainstream conservatives who may find themselves holding views uncomfortably close to these radicals:
It's about Richard Poplawski. And the dozens, if not hundreds, of little latent Poplawskis out there, waiting to pop off and kill more police officers, or just as likely, a crowd of innocent bystanders.
But you'll notice that all the people who were squawking loudly about the DHS bulletin a year ago are being terribly quiet about this case.





"C&L was one of the first news organizations to report that last Thursday's shootout"....
come again? C&L is not a news organization... You don't become a news organization by parroting other news organizations and then adding a sentence or two of your opinion...
David's work in this area IS classic journalism, the pulling together of various threads and sources to provide a clearer picture of these folks.
If you don't think we do original reporting here, you haven't been paying attention.
We were the first news organization of any kind to report on the Oath Keepers.
We were the first news organization of any kind to report on the return of the militia movement.
We were also one of the first to reveal the white-supremacist background of Richard Poplawski.
All of this information I dug up not from other news organizations but through my own journalistic sources and investigative work.
Finally, I should point out that the vast majority of news organizations, especially newspapers, do exactly what we do: They transmit the bulk of their information from other sources, and commingle that with their own reportage.
Isn't that how classic journalists used the wire services like Reuters et al?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
While David's expertise in the area of white supremacy hate groups and anti-government hate groups is vast and without reproach, Chaking isn't the only one who hasn't been paying attention. As a journalist David has missed a valuable source that has been right under his noise.
For the last two years I have repeatedly e-mailed David, everywhere I could, trying to introduce him to Dave Hall, the Co-author of “Into the Devil’s Den.” Dave Hall is the FBI undercover informant that infiltrated the Aryan Nations in the late nineties, prevented the assignation of Morris Dees, prevented the bombing of the Earle Cabell Federal Building in Texas, and who’s efforts sparked so much internal paranoia in the AN that they self destructed. A seasoned investigative reporter wouldn’t have passed on my attempts to make the connection.
If David had taken the time to read Dave’s book, check him out with Mark Potok at the SPLC, or respond to my e-mails, he would have had the opportunity to scoop the AP and the rest of the media on some of the details surrounding this story. Dave (Hall) knew long before the AP reported it, that the shooter was the son – not the father as was originally reported.
Dave is an invaluable source when it comes to these groups. As part his mission Dave became an ordained minister in the Church of Jesus Christ Christian of the Aryan Nations, in New Vienna, Ohio. This is the same church, even though it has been re-named, that the vehicle Kane was driving – as well as over a hundred other vehicles - are registered too.
This information could have been yours David. Sometimes being a journalist means getting in the trenches and doing the dirty work – not just rehashing other people’s work.
As much as I respect you and your work - you blew it. Dave is in the loop in ways you can only dream of being.
Maybe Mr. Neiwert doesn't give a damn what you think.
As far as David is concerned; any reporter/author - particularly someone who’s area of interest is white supremacy and anti-government movements - that wouldn't want access to one of the people the FBI calls first when there is hate group activity in Ohio or by people from Ohio, would be missing out on a one of the best sources there is.
As for you Sedum, you apparently have nothing constructive or relevant to offer.
as both a journalist and an expert. Not only has he been following this type of story for many years, he had the pleasure of growing up around a lot of this mentality.
Then group them accordingly; then investigate and/or eliminate anyone with similar political beliefs.
And we should trust the Department of Homeland Security to do it all. Because political beliefs cause crime, and, if we don't eliminate "bad" political beliefs, our children will be killed in their sleep.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...that this is snark. Because if not, it's just ridiculous. I haven't been around here long enough to know who's who.
welcome
Corruption favors the wealthy.
http://www.avoid-global-warming.com/TB/?P=2741
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
Nice!
In the Memphis Commercial Appeal a front-page photo of the scene showed very clearly that the 16 year old son, Joe, was dead on the grass with his hands handcuffed behind his back. I cut no slack for cop-killers, but why was a dead person handcuffed? I've read no explanation anywhere.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/photos/galler...
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
have really thick bullet proof vests on, don't they?
It's standard police policy. A person isn't considered dead until a medical examiner says so. Even though it would be obvious that the person isn't breathing and has no pulse, the procedure is to play it safe. Keep in mind that 2 police officers were shot. Why would the other cops take a chance?
Cops don't pronounce people "dead". In a shooting incident such as this SOP is cuffs from the time the person is under control until medical personnel make that determination. Looks ugly but it's not any kind of conspiracy.
cuffed, how? by the position of his hand? besides, it appears the palm position is wrong for zipcuffs.
IF the kid was indeed cuffed, it's SOP in some jurisdictions
The right wing / Republicans feed , encourage and bring out the worst in people , stupidity , greed , selfishness , hate ,lying , racism , paranoia , violence ... you name it .They are quite literally destroying this country , I don't think we will ever recover from Bush , Cheney , the Repugs and neocons and the eight years they were in power and control .
... given that the economic chaos they fomented, plus the Gulf Spill, plus all the other places GOP 'free market' ideology is coming home to roost in unpleasant ways is going to be with us for generations.
And that is why we must remove these misantropic demons from mainstream media, all branches of government, leadership positions, etc., using whatever means necessary. Otherwise, we're doomed! Simple eh?
Their homeworld was a place called Earth, located in an uninteresting part of the galaxy. They had an expression: pride goeth before a fall. Their pride was their undoing. I know. I was there....They did not listen, of course. Arrogant men never do.
Kane was upset that he had to "Show his papers" in New Mexico? Yeah that's only for brown people. I can understand why, as a violent conservative white american, that would cause him to murder people.
The people of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage." J.K. Galbraith
This must be one of those Christians Rand Paul was talking about. You know, the ones with a moral compass that don't go around killing people, unlike those godless heathens.
No TRUE Christian could ever do this...
I wonder how my secret clone corporation is doing. I stubbed my toe last night. Did he feel it?
I wonder if he'll let me borrow some money until payday.
The Federalist Papers made it clear that there had to be balance between the Federal and State powers, and some clear roles, because of the ability of factions to overwhelm the State, factions they saw primarily born of selfish economic interests and religion.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
were a series of arguments in which the benefits of a strong central government were supported by Hamilton, Madison, and Jay. The "balance" was provided by "The Anti-Federalist Papers" of John Dewitt, Patrick Henry, et al. Both collections are available but few remember the latter. The combination of these arguments resulted in a Constitution and The Bill of Rights.
The only real thing the Anti-Federalist Papers contributed to the Constitution was the inclusion of a Bill of Rights, which Hamilton openly sneered at in the Federalist papers saying in effect it was guaranteeing a guarantee (the Constitution itself) and therefore redundant.
The anti-federalists wanted to hold onto the Articles of Confederation, and only reform that as necessary.
The Anti-Federalist wrote AGAINST the Constitution and it was only by the inclusion of the Bill of Rights would any accept it. The Constitution was ratified in May 1790, and the Bill of Rights in December of 1791.
And the Federalist papers talk at length about Checks and Balances between the tripartite branches of the Federal government to convince people that power wouldn't concentrate in too few hands, between the feds and the states, to convince the state that the new structure would not simply erase their existence or be of a Parliamentary nature, and the balance of both the Federal Powers and the State Powers with the Rights of the people, primarily to vote. Even in the X amendment, the so called "State's Right amendment" reserves power to the people as well as the State, and the people alone in Amendment IX.
I own copies of both books...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Because very few folks seem to be aware of the second one.
I'm a little less inclined to "Sneer" at the guarantee on the guarantee. "The only real thing the Anti-Federalist Papers contributed to the Constitution was the inclusion of a Bill of Rights", Kind of an important part isn't it? Few of the arguments heard are about the Constitution itself. If you pay attention, they seem to always begin with "the Xth amendment says...". If the Federalists had of gotten their way completely, those wouldn't exist. And if the anti- Federalists had converted more of the delegates, the Constitution wouldn't exist.
So no, while the Federalist papers were an explanation of the proposed government, they were also an argument in it's favor against the Anti Federalists arguments for stronger states rights.
My point was the Constitution was already written before the back and forth of the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists in their books. The anti-federalists even argued it was illegal, since they were supposedly only there to reform the Articles. And the anti-federalists were against it's ratification and urging people to vote against it...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
and it was a pretty damned eloquent sales job. When I listen to Skousen/teabagger types, sometimes I just want to yell "Hey, knucklehead, we already had this discussion". But I don't think it would enlighten them.
I'm not sure if I've ever heard a precise number for those we call the Founding Fathers, so we probably had avid Central Power people like the Federalists, avid state power people like the Anti-Federalist, and the rest fell somewhere in between and were among those the two sides were trying to convince, along with the people in the states voting for ratification.
So this game of tug-of-war was probably present during the writing of the Constitution, and shaped it's final outcome, but there were hold-outs wanting to vote against it.
Having the people voting for ratification (along with state legislatures) was overriding the States, by getting the people to imagine themselves as part of something far larger than their own states.
The discussion would return in the 19th century when the Federalists became the Unionist view versus the view of the antebellum South State's Rightists complete with null-and-void power. The centralized/union/federal would be reemphasized in the XIV amendment.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
“'He was very upset for quite a while about the New Mexico stop,” Mr. Jenkins said, “because he didn’t believe you need a license to travel in the nation’s highways. That that is a right of every American, not a privilege.'”
Interesting how so many gun nuts will come on this site arguing that gun ownership, although not specified, is a right, and arguments comparing them to cars, which have a practical purpose, are silly because driving is a privilege only.
And I wonder if this idiot ever heard of Dead Peasant Insurance...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
purpose to gun ownership. Since you are fond of citing the Federalist papers, and touting Dead Pheasant Insurance, here is eyewitness proof refuting you about the framers understanding of what is practical and better insurance of our liberty.
The framers only failed when they included human and not dog ownership in their document.
http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/2250...
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
. . . and that side is from a Sheriff's Department that has admittedly gunned down two people including a teenage boy.
Surprise, surprise, they bad mouth the victims. Their version might be true, but it also might not. I don't know that it's even been disclosed why the two dead civilians were stopped. But there's been plenty of information on what "bad" people they were.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Perhaps they were just an INNOCENT pair of armed loonies celebrating their "Second Amendment rights"...(snicker)
So, just who do you think killed those 2 cops? They didn't "gun down" anybody. They were in a gunfight with 2 rabid rightwing nutcases. You worry about someone badmouthing the "victims". I didn't read anything about the dead cops being badmouthed. The father and son kill team were certainly not victims, they were perpetrators of a crime. Take your sympathy for them somewhere else.
discover they did something that threatened the freedom of these
now dead civilians exercising their right to bear arms while traveling our free highways unlicensed to reach a new site where they could charge people worthelss currency for valuable lessons in how to avoid paying for such free highways.
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
Those cops aren't dead. This was a criminal conspiracy to execute two innocent patriotic Americans. Those cops are on the beach in Tahiti right now, just waiting to be joined by their families as soon as the fraudulently-obtained life insurance payouts arrive.
/snark
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Does it even matter?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
No plates.
Four people dead because Mr. $300/Head Tax Cheat Seminar Guy didn't think he should pay a registration fee for his van.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Because everything I've read indicates that the Sheriff's Dept. has declined to reveal why the van was stopped.
But a picture of a van riddled with bullets (and a dead child in front) gives you all the information you need to know? I suppose it's an unreasonable possibility that the police themselves removed the plates - especially with reporters at the scene.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...we'd know why Kane was being pulled over.
That is, I think they're declining to reveal because they have nothing to reveal- they don't know why.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
. . . we might also know more.
And that's my point. We simply don't know.
But there are plenty of people willing to jump to conclusions based on information provided by a Sheriff's Department that has a significant conflict of interest.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I'm done with this kind of shit with you. You're going to suck up the better part of the day arguing with someone over something, and it isn't going to be with me about this. You're wrong. I'll just leave it at that. Have fun getting your blood preesure up.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
But then I wasn't arguing in the same thread that they were pulled over both for having no plates and for having Ohio plates.
Have a nice day.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Don't be a dick.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I placed him on ignore.
Let him agree with timjoebillybob whatever.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Cause you did make that up.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
what's with the dickish attitude? It seems like the last few weeks you're just out gunning for posters you used to be genial to.
me-oww!
And that the information we do have is provided by those with a conflict of interest.
I held back plenty despite several personal swipes as me (the Einstein crack was about as personal as I got, and that was provoked).
But thanks for the observation miss_kitty. I'll try to keep it in mind.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
the security this website has for registration is goofy.
Written by someone who is apparently unable to follow his own advise :)
Corruption favors the wealthy.
the security this website has for registration is goofy.
Excuse me, this asshole and his little asshole son SHOT TWO COPS TO DEATH. Maybe the sheriffs had an interest in preventing him from killing them, too, or any him sales tax or something.
It should have said,
"...or any civilians who pissed him off by trying to charge him sales tax or something."
The Sheriff's Department was involved in two civilian deaths. It is not the proper organization to be investigating. They have an interest in the outcome.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...no police agency could ever investigate a fatal shooting by one of its officers.
It should be, and often is, handled by a different agency.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...that you don't make these decisions.
bitter scribe. They get a neighbouring agency to look in on it. In Seattle, the Wa State Patrol investigates cops shooting others, if I'm not mistaken.
Auburn officers will call on Seattle for a police involved shooting.
Not that there's much difference in agencies. They all know each other, and feel they are one big exceptional family.
me-oww!
It's also using reasonable doubt and the presumption of innocence for one party only, but not the other, and presuming the worse of the officers.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I merely pointed out that in officer involved shooting it can be the officers fault, and that information from police sources cannot always be trusted in these situations.
The point I've made repeatedly is that we simply don't know. While that's certainly not jumping on current bandwagon of "officers=good and civilians=bad," it's a far cry from presuming the worst of the officers.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
for stopping a car with no license plates. See? Cop was asking to be murdered, just like I was asking to be raped and beaten by the thug who pushed my door in.
of everyone who thinks civilians should own guns.
Gun ownership should not be a right or a privilege. If the Kane's were armed with sharpened screwdrivers, the chances are, no one would have died.
traffic stop that led to the shootings:
"Neal, 33, a game & fish officer about two years, was among several commission officers responding to a call to search for a white minivan containing Jerry and Joseph Kan that fled after two West Memphis police officers, Sgt. Brandon Paudert and Bill Evans, were shot and killed after making a traffic stop about 11:35 a.m. on Interstate 40." http://m.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/may/2...
got to wonder about him, too - he lived in Clearwater,FL. that's ¢o$ home turf.
No wonder so few people complain about the suspension of habeas corpus, they see no need for a trial: everything they need to know is contained in a news report.
I don't know what happened, but neither do you. Cops have killed people without justification and even engaged in outright premeditated murder. In each instance, those killed were initially (and often continually) portrayed as presenting a threat to the officers. Two that come immediately to mind are the murder of Fred Hampton and the murders at Ruby Ridge.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Keep digging, fiver. You're almost to China.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
You seem to know an amazing amount for someone who wasn't there.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
You're arguing points unprovable.
With some of the cops a tad too dead to testify, and the perps as well, it's hard to know in detail what happened.
But they have police records.
And more and more often the MO of such people is to die in a hail of gunfire, because like terrorists elsewhere, they hope to become martyrs, and spark a civil war.
There are still the radio calls between the original officers and the switchboard, but even then situations could change so fast, that even a transcript of such calls would be insufficient, if the cops ever left their cruiser.
And weren't you a couple of weeks ago arguing it was okay to taser a kid when he interrupts a ball game between millionaire athletes?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
So you knew them well?
And when did I argue tasering a child was "okay"? You just inventing stuff now,
Andyysb?edited
Corruption favors the wealthy.
"The shootings came about 90 minutes after West Memphis police Sgt. Brandon Paudert, 39, and Officer Bill Evans, 38, were attacked with AK-47 assault rifles after they stopped a minivan on Interstate 40 in West Memphis on Thursday, authorities said."
Since he already had a history of traffic stops it may be presumable that the stop was for something like speeding, and the original officers didn't know how heavily armed they were. They were just driving casually along with their AK-47's until the pigs stopped them...
Now if you want to argue the presumption of innocence so was Ken Lay, since he died while appealing his case...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Andy K
I just saw your link with the no plates.
I've been stopped before simply for having plates that were a couple of days late being replaced...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...the original call from the officer who decided to pull Kane over mentioned Ohio tags. The Kanes pulled the plates in an attempt to lay low.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Here's something interesting
The son was "home-schooled,"
http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-police-funeral/...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
and after reading the article, your "quotes" are very appropriate.
... you have a call from ABHORRENT BEHAVIOR on line one.
Atlas Call Forwarded
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
Some people really need to use thier head for more than a hat rack. Is it such a stretch to think a career criminal, who was upset about a previous arrest, and had stated the liklihood of future violence might actually commit violence? We need to now know why this man and his son were stopped? Why? What possible police excess could justify the killing of two police officers? These two were NOT the victim here, but rather the two officers that are now dead because of this man's disconnect with reality and his thinking that violence was an acceptable solution to his percieved problems. Let's not make this man out to be anything other than what he was...a sad little man that killed two police officers, and his son in the process.
but the kid?
And he was handcuffed even after being shot dead???
The kid was shooting at the second group of cops. There are eyewitnesses- private citizens- to the events at the end of the chase.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Kind of hard to handcuff someone when they're firing at you...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Good riddence to these hatefilled, Reslug bigots and many more.
and a fan of Sister Sarah too.
Approximately 540 US citizens have been killed by these extremists that have been motivated by the Nazi propaganda "Big Lie" used by the totalitarian, corrupt, and incompetent republicans/Fascists.
Of that 540 figure, 168 men, women, and children were killed by McVeigh and Nichols in the Oklahoma City bombing. Many police officers have lost their lives because of the Crazies propagating lies, distortions, and fabrications. The radical extremists republicans have blood on their hands and need to be marginalized by declaring them personna non grata.
What is the difference between a sovereign citizen and an illegal alien? What would happen if an illegal alien adopted the sovereign citizen cause?
couple of questions keep coming to mind when I read this stuff.
1. Has anyone ever proven that one human or group of humans has any authority over another human or group of humans?
2. If there is no evidence of an injured party, who is the initiator of the threat of lethal violence when police stop someone?
find out about "Right to Travel" can google it and get all the info they want. Be warned, if you don't want to be free or for others to be free, you're not going to like what you learn.
With AK-47's?
I generally bring along sun block
Factor 50
The living dead strength...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
The militia movement was only one strategy of the broad coalition of right-wing extremists who call themselves the "Patriot" movement, which also included an array of tax protesters, "constitutionalists," antiabortion extremists, antienvironmentalists, various conspiracy theorists, and the movement's core of religious white nationalists.
The strategy of forming militias was aimed at recruiting from the mainstream, particularly among gun owners.It eventually fell prey to disrepute and entropy, for reasons mostly related to financial mismanagement and competing egos and agendas, as well as the failure of its dire warnings of a New World Order apocalypse around the supposed Y2K problem in late 1999. Other Patriot strategies have proved to have greater endurance. One of the most important of these is “common law courts" and their various permutations, which revolve around the idea of “sovereign citizenship." and conceive of every white Christian male American, essentially, as a king unto himself. The movement is always mutable.
This fundamental strategy also includes forming vigilante citizen militias to perform necessary “community-security” functions, giving rise to perhaps the most famous of these offshoots: the Minuteman movement, which to this day organizes "border watches" along the U.S.-Mexico border in California, Arizona, and Texas (as well as other states, including Washington along its border with Canada). When Minuteman Project cofounder Chris Simcox began organizing border-watch patrols in early 2003 in his hometown of Tombstone, he called his outfit the Tombstone Militia (though he changed it in relatively short order to the Civil Homeland Defense Corps).
Simcox's campaign was attracting press attention as early as January 2003, when he was inviting media members to observe the group’s patrols. Typical of both the supporters and the offshoots of the Minuteman Project, they have consistently identified themselves with the militia (or Patriot) movement, and they call themselves "militias" unhesitatingly. Likewise, prior to the announcement of the Minuteman Project, press coverage of the border-militia movement referred consistently to the participants as "militiamen." [pp. 134-135]
Study the symptoms not the virus...
I fear that the biggest mistake that the dead cops made was in not presuming these two were violent because they were white.
The people of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage." J.K. Galbraith
(West Memphis is just across the Mississippi River from Memphis), I have been following this story very closely since the initial chaotic and confusing news reports came out on Thursday. The suspects were stopped on Interstate 40, which is notorious as a major route for drug runners and smugglers of all types. Thus, it is not unusual for law enforcement officers to "profile" (and I use that word cautiously) vehicles that fit the stereotype of those used in criminal activity--such as older-model vans with out-of-state-plates (and in this case, perhaps even expired tags, though that detail has not been publicly confirmed). The officers who were killed worked the drug interdiction unit and had, in fact, made a significant marijuana bust in that same area only a few weeks ago. In short, this type of stop is fairly routine on that stretch of interstate. Kane's history of traffic violations and similar stops suggests that, in addition to thinking himself beyond license and registration laws, he likely considered himself free to disregard such conspiratorial rules as speed limits or other agreed-upon standards for safe driving. There has been much speculation about why the Kanes were pulled over in the first place, but as someone posted above, the one person who could answer that question was buried yesterday. According to the West Memphis Police Chief (the father of one of the officers killed), Officer Evans, who who made the initial traffic stop, was shot at close range--probably with the AK-47 found with the suspects. Officer Paudert, the son of the WM Police Chief, arrived separately and sought shelter behind his squad car, which was riddled with bullet holes and did not prove to be enough to keep Paudert from being shot through the head and killed instantly.
West Memphis is not exactly a booming metropolis, and the area surrounding the interstate is pretty compact. Within moments, all of "downtown" West Memphis was saturated with law enforcement officers from every imaginable branch and jurisdiction AND with reporters and cameramen from every news station in Memphis. The interstate was closed down on both sides of the river and the initial crime scene had been blocked off to the media, so many of those reporters set up shop on the interstate access road a few hundred yards from the Wal-Mart where the suspects were ultimately killed. A Memphis news station had its helicopter circling overhead even before the suspects were spotted; the helicopter cameraman captured the entire shootout as it occurred. Several other reporters filmed the event from the ground. The cameras even captured the Kanes' wounded Labrador Retriever frantically climbing out of the broken window of the van in the midst of the shooting. The shooting happened at a little after 1:00 p.m.on a sunny afternoon in the parking lot of one of the busiest shopping centers in town. If there is a cover-up here, it would have to involve literally HUNDREDS of witnesses (if not thousands)--law enforcement officials, media representatives, and plain old civilians who were stuck on the interstate or had the misfortune of making a Thursday afternoon Wal-Mart run just as all hell was breaking loose a few yards away. It is miraculous that innocent bystanders were not wounded.
I agree that there are many, many unanswered questions about this horrific event, and I certainly understand that there is often good reason to be suspicious of the "official" versions of crimes. However, in this case, before we start throwing around accusations of a police cover-up or conspiracies, let's consider the context of the event as a whole. If anyone took plates off of the van after the fact, SOMEONE saw it happen or filmed it. If that pitiful, twisted kid was handcuffed after he took his last breath, someone captured that on film, too; the graphic, surreal front-page photo of the dead teen proves that the media weren't exactly kept at a distance. Southerners (myself included, obviously) aren't exactly known for our ability to keep our mouths shut either, especially about events with as many "juicy" details as this one--cops killed in the line of duty, family ties (both Evans and Paudert come from a long line of law enforcement officers, not to mention the fact that the suspects were father and son), white supremacists, automatic weapons, hunting dogs, and Wal-Mart.
I find the whole thing incredibly sad and senseless and frightening and infuriating.
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