Fred Barnes is wankerific!
By John Amato Tuesday May 12, 2009 5:45amFOX News star Fred Barnes called Nancy Pelosi a liar over the issue of what she knew or didn't know about waterboarding. The CIA has not been persuasive with their smears of Pelosi because they haven't released the facts, just innuendo, to muddy up the water regarding torture. If they have the goods, well, then release it and we can talk about Nancy.
Barnes launches on a psycho-babble rant that is nonsensical and outright repulsive. He puts forth evidence of the success of torture when there isn't any, and describes Pelosi's motives like she wrote them in an op-ed. Maybe she talked to him off the record like all the Democratic sources Robert Novak always claimed to have. And let's not forget. Nancy Pelosi was not part of the torture discussion that the Bush Administration had when they decided torturing people was fine for America to be involved with. They implemented it before she was ever supposedly briefed about it. They committed crimes without her knowledge. It's all a smoke screen to take the heat of of them.
Shame on Barnes.
Glenn Greenwald wrote this a few days ago:
I'm truly amazed to watch the eruption of "controversy" today over the fact that Nancy Pelosi was briefed in 2002 on various aspects of the CIA's interrogation program, as though (a) this is some sort of new revelation and (b) it has any bearing on whether there should be investigations and prosecutions into Bush crimes. As many of us have long pointed out, the extent to which Democratic leaders in Congress were complicit in Bush lawbreaking -- including torture -- is a major issue that needs resolution, and is almost certainly a key reason why there have been no investigations thus far. There are real disputes still about what these Democrats were and were not told -- how complete the briefings were, the extent to which they obfuscated rather than illuminated what the CIA was doing -- though they were obviously told enough to have warranted further action on their part, to say the least.
But what's the point of all of this? Secretly telling Nancy Pelosi that you're committing crimes doesn't mean that you have the right to do so. And the profound failures of the other institutions that are supposed to check executive lawbreaking during the Bush era -- principally Congress and the "opposition party" -- is a vital issue that demands serious examination. This dispute over what Pelosi (and Jay Rockefeller and others) knew highlights, rather than negates, the need for a meaningful investigation into what took place.
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And let the chips fall where they may.
No matter who or what party they belong too.
before that happens.
or creator released us from those bonds in the first place.
Let's just say for conversational purposes that Pelosi knew every detail of what they were doing, what could she do to stop it? What happens to a member of congress if they divulge classified information? What is the penalty for doing something like that? Knowing about it but being restricted by law from talking about it, makes you guilty of what crime?
Also, what happens when the WH, specifically BushBrat outs a CIA operative and her whole network, endangering lives, too. The fact is NOTHING has been done at all!! What is the penalty of WH outing operatives who are working on sensitive projects in the now??? NOTHING! Nothing has happened, so, probably won't happen either. How revolting!! Demonstrates that 'laws' mean nothing to the priviledged 1% as usual. That is why this 'torture' thingie won't die like the priviledged 1%ers want it to.
He said that Pelosi didn't bat aqn eye. Impossible, remember Bush's 04 inaugeration when Faux was counting the times she blinked.
Of course, this isn't about making sense: it's about re-framing the discussion AWAY from the Bush Administration, and getting us bogged down in "What did Pelosi know and when did she know it?" It's a complete red herring, and the only reply to it is to say "This isn't about Pelosi, this is about Cheney."
Yes, Albatross, this is about CHENEY!! The sociopathic supplier of torture for BUSH. That was the price for the sockpuppet's co-operation with the coup de tat. Bush has his private library of torture CD's, you better believe that! That is why ol' CHENEY is running scared. Yes, Darth Cheney is scared that torture is going to unravel the whole FASCIST COUP DE TAT!!! I hope! Go Spain!
..fyi
That said, Pelosi had a real problem regarding her responsibilities.
These meetings and briefings were, if memory serves, classified.
Remember those Repignicans who thought that it was a good idea to out an agent for political gain?
I don't think that the Bushistas would have any problem jailing a Dem for leaking classified information.
Agree, let the chips fall because the American people need to know the truth.
I also agree that I do not think it mattered whether Nancy Pelosi knew or not. What exactly was she supposed to do? If she had discussed anything with anyone the Bush people whould have charged her with treason.
Secretly telling Nancy Pelosi that you're committing crimes doesn't mean that you have the right to do so.
I just love people who can get to the heart of the matter in succinct form.
Are you sure?
Oh maybe along the line of the entire "blue dress has dna material" stuff?
Ah, OK
There's a huge difference between someone who perpetrates a crime and someone who just stands and watches. The level of blame assigned to the bystander depends on a number of circumstances (e.g., ability of bystander to intervene, duty of bystander to intervene, etc.). However, it never comes within an order of magnitude to the culpability of those actively participating in the crime.
A well-funded, objective special prosecutor needs to be appointed, given subpoena power and a brief to investigate, publish a report and prosecute as appropriate. Let the chips fall where they may. Where justice might be better tempered, let Obama commute or pardon but let there be no coverup and no scapegoats.
is the Fox business model. If you can't get a job telling the truth, in Murdoch's world you can always get a good paying job lying about it.
Hannity, O'Reilly, Beck, Barnes, any of them. All whores.
That's funny
The biggest annoyance I have with all these Conservative mouthpieces indicting Nancy Pelosi is the fact I'm not seeing Pelosi hitting back, defending herself and saying the CIA report is incorrect.
About 1 second at best
The Republicans are already going to disbelieve her out of sheer spite. All she has at this point is her word that she didnt' get told the torture was actively going on and a CIA declassified document that sorta kinda corroborates her statement.
All she can do is deny it at this point.
But any way it goes, her foreknowledge doesn't matter. Investigating her has absolutely no bearing on whether or not we should be investigating Bush on down. Each one of them deserves their own day in court for what they've done. Focusing on some bullshit he said/she said is a distraction at best.
and by the way, I cant' freaking stand Pelosi. IMHO she's the worst speaker ever, a coward and a traitor for not impeaching Bush while she had the chance after his criminal behavior came to light.
...of speech is one thing but FOX's daily slander machine is something else.
Let the lawsuits commence.
don't be suggesting that.
Their defense that "The Democrats knew about it too." Hilariously pathetic. Also, attempting to place Pelosi center stage on this torture subject instead of Bush, Cheney and their band of criminals is not just cowardly, but an admission of guilt.
They don't.
bullsh*t for quite a while here it's ironic that only the Cons have the balls to put her feet to the fire.
When does embarrassment trump senility, or even dementia?
The party that brought us the Iraq war calling Pelosi a liar. that's rich.
I guess if Pelosi's "lie" bankrupted the US treasury and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands Freddie would be ok with it....though only if she were a Rushthugliklan of course.
While I abhor the actions/inactions of the democratic leadership, I think this republican spin cycle is particularly pernicious.
It very much reminds me of the swift-boating of Kerry in '04, and the ability of the repubs to so successfully turn kerry (the war 'hero') into a traitor, completely ignoring and obscuring any facts related to the real traitor (AWOL bush). It was precision surgical propaganda.
Rove's plan here is to try to make Pelosi and the dems the party of torture, with the repubs the innocent bystanders--and I have no doubt he'll get away with it.
"Rove's plan here is to try to make Pelosi and the dems the party of torture, with the repubs the innocent bystanders--and I have no doubt he'll get away with it."
People are wise to Turdblossom's game. Didn't worth too well in the last 2 election cycles. I think the era of big turdblossoms is over.
'People are wise to Turdblossom's game.'
Which people? Unfortunately, the turd has been able to filter--and mainstream--his propaganda through the MSM, available to all 24/7, resulting in tens of millions believing things they are irrational, illegal, immoral, and against their own best interests.
Let's face it, if propaganda, no matter how outrageous, weren't so successful, subjects such as the wall street bailout, universal health care, and credit card usury laws--not to mention torture and the loss of constitutional rights--wouldn't need to be discussed.
http://epic.org/open_gov/eo_12356.html
"Executive Order 12356
April 2, 1982
"(a) In no case shall information be classified in order to conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error; to prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency; to restrain competition; or to prevent or delay the release of information that does not require protection in the interest of national security.(.....)"
So perhaps, Cheney decided to put the information out as being covered by 'under wraps because of national security' therefore giving the Bush regime cover....?
Otherwise, one would think those in Congress would already know about this particular EO and bring it up? After all, aren't they all college grads? Law school grads?
Just listened to the 'debate' on "Hardball" where - according to the video of Cheney/Schieffer - Cheney sounds like he has been the one to decide on 'signing off' on the torture thing...because he hems and haws about Bush 'basically' signing off on it, whereas before he said Bush "signed off on it"....Would Cheney be saying HE was the one who 'uped-one' on Bush and 'took over'????? Just strange he would make that kind of error.
That requires a knowledge of his intent, which unless you have an email from him cackling about how much he dicked over the Dems when he classified X you're not going to realistically be able to prove.
It's more realistic to go after him for his admission that he authorized torture in the first place. It's a crime. We know it's a crime. There are no justifications or equivocations to be made and even if torture produced actionable evidence that's no excuse at all.
Yes, it is good that he is actually admitting that he authorized torture....But one would think SOMEONE on that Committee would have know about this Executive Order from 1982.
They're supposed to be 'smarter than us', remember. I mean, they all went to college and law school for cryin' out loud.
Your point is extremely well taken, tho.
His admissions are the same old: "I/we did thus, thus, thus, and thus, and what are you going to do about it!" We've been hearing this stuff for eight years. No one wants to talk about all that 'hush' money given out by the gov. DAYS after 9/11...so no one would 'ask embarrassing questions', either.
and actors anymore in my opinion and we're still sleepwalking into the future.
In fact, every single congress critter/senator that participated in enabling this horrendous national disgrace should be hounded right out of office.
Then we'd have a chance of electing representatives who are actually responsive to those they represent.
Fuck Nancy and Harry. Toss em "under the bus".
The brain dead, geriatric red neck crowd listen to this bumbling idiot, and they actually think he is speaking from fact. NONE!! This neocon, fascist propagandist is simply tossing out HIS scenario of what he wants to have the truth to be. ALL TOTAL NONSENSE!!
From the "useful information" to the "what she should have done" bull shit.
The really sad thing about all this is I have half my older siblings believe this guy is telling them "something", when in fact it's all myth, it's all right wing bull shit; and these right wing neocons are shitting their pants, worried that the crime family is going to get what is coming to them.
INVESTIGATE and TRY THESE BASTARDS!! ALL OF THEM!!!!!!
talking points, too, about pelosi.
But didn't Cheney just this weekend say "It was a presidential decision." Last I checked the buck doesn't stop with Nancy Pelosi.
I smell the stench of Fucked up, Faux Noise Freddy and all the other loser Reslugs starting to all shit in their pink panties. They can't handle the truth that they are losers and slowly dying.
... if she WAS fully briefed, and she consequently made the decision to remain complicit by taking impeachment 'off the table' and/or congressional oversight.
The excuses being offered in defense of torture are ridiculous. It's still torture, it's still against the law, it's still a war crime.
Our DOJ can handle more than one case at a time. So holding up investigations and prosecutions becomes somehow Pelosi -may- have been complicit is about as ridiculous as holding up a murder trial because someone got a parking ticket.
If Pelosi's guilty, fry her ass. But don't stop looking into BushCo and The Republic of Dick Cheney just because you suspect her too.
Whether or not Pelosi knew is less important than the fact that people were tortured at George W. Bush and Dick Cheney's order.
Hell, reserve a cell for Pelosi next to George and Dick, investigate and if she DID know put her the fuck in it along with any other damned Democrat and Repubican that signed off on this shit.
But whether or not she knew has absolutely no bearing on whether or not we should be prosecuting people for this. Waterboarding is torture. Waterboarding is illegal. We've prosecuted and executed people for it as recently as Reagan's DOJ in 1983. The law hasn't changed since then and if anything Reagan signing an anti-torture treaty makes it even more illegally.
Al so irrelevant are any far fetched notions about it's efficacy. At this point all we have is Cheney's word that anything at all was stopped and he's not exactly a trustworthy source. He was after all instrumental in LYING about connections between Iraq and Al Quaeda in order to drag us into that pointless and costly war and continues to lie about them even now. So we're supposed to believe him?
Even if we foiled -a- plot, we still had thousands of agents roaming all over the world on wild goose chases doing shit that is absolutely against our law in the process. If I murder somebody because killing him will prevent him killing a thousand people it is still no less a murder.
Let Cheney testify - in fact, subpoena him and compel his testimony under oath. Lets get this shit all on the table. If he refuses, hold him in contempt and fucking arrest his ass and put him in the little jail under the capitol building. He's not a pope or a king or a maharajah, he WAS a Vice President and he wasn't even a good one.
And by the way anybody who'd like to make the case for waterboarding somehow not being torture is welcome to stop by my house. I've got a hose and a table out back with your name on it. I'll even have a paramedic stand by so by Bush's standards it 'wont be torture'. I'll have your ass wearing a schoolgirl outfit and singing "I'm a little teapot" in less than ten minutes.
..is pass a law LEGALIZING torture. Then, tell the International Community we are withdrawing our support of anti-terror laws and treaties and such. At least then we wouldn't be hypocrites.
Look, who knew what and when, who authorized what and when, who actually tortured who and when, Red Cross says it was, Bush and Cheney said they did, Ms. Pelosi may have or may not, etc. ad nauseum; appoint the Special Prosecutor and get to the bottom of it all, PERIOD! Are we that dense? Are we that incompetent that we can't appoint one man to do a job? I'm beginning to think that whoever is responsible for the appointment of a Special Prosecutor ought to be the first one to be tried as a War Criminal for stalling the investigation/affirmation of war crimes and torture.
Its so pathetic to listen to ALL the BS. OBL is rolling on the floor of his hut, laughing hysterically, at our hypocrisy! Way to GO - America!
I absolutely love this country and its freedoms but this failure to appoint the SP is unconscionable! It will affect my VOTE!
Except that you fail to mention that Osama Bin Forgotten has won. Apparently no Republicans ever watched The Siege. He got precisely what he wanted out of that attack, for America to toss all it's once vaunted moral ideals out the window and waste it's money, and lives in pointless wars so he could wear us down and finally destroy us.
He's already gotten step one and two out of the way.
..I wanted us to just "..insert evil thoughts here..". I knew though that our response would be the lens through which our
country would be examined. The war in Afghanistan did not turn out as it should've and the war in Iraq was illegal. Even if I supported invading Iraq, after six years of "peace", this is not what I would've signed up for. As badly as I wanted OBL's head on a pike following 9/11, that's how bad I want to see people prosecuted for perverting our country's morals. I could care less who the torturer was or who the enabler was; I want the bastards in jail for breaking laws and violating international agreements!
Except that you fail to mention that Osama Bin Forgotten has won. Apparently no Republicans ever watched The Siege. He got precisely what he wanted out of that attack, for America to toss all it's once vaunted moral ideals out the window and waste it's money, and lives in pointless wars so he could wear us down and finally destroy us.
He's already gotten step one and two out of the way.
I have been saying this for a long time .After 911 Bin Ladens stated goal was to destroy the U.S. economy so the U.S. would be so busy looking after thier own affairs they wouldn't be able to meddle in other peoples. Its like they set a trap and Bushco etc. walked right into it .
I personally believe that torturing *anyone* is wrong and against what I was raised to believe America stood for; let alone illegal. As such, I believe that anyone that knew about these policies and did nothing to prevent them is as guilty as the ones who authorized and carried them out. This means I believe that they should be investigated and punished, if the investigation indicates punishment is warranted. This means democrats, republicans, conservatives, liberals.
It seems to me that most republicans can't fathom the fact that I don't care if the investigations implicate Pelosi. I still want investigations and any resulting convictions. To a republican, it would be unthinkable to want their own investigated, let alone punished. This is an indication of their party-first mentality. They care more about their party than American values.
SJ
I don't think the sentence should be as stiff for Pelosi(IF she was breifed and didn't blow the whistle) as for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Ashcroft, Gonzales, Rove, Addington, Feith, Perle, etc. But YES OF COURSE anyone involved in any way MUST be prosecuted as DEMANDED by the LAWS of the United States of America!
If my lawyer says he doesn't care and I tell Nancy about it after the fact I can commit ANY crime I want including TORTURE, war of aggression and any other war crimes?
I never knew that Barnes had a Wanker. Everybody knows he's a bedwetting, crybaby Reslug without a hair on his large ass.
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