Rahm Emanuel sez NO Bush officials should be prosecuted over the torture memos
By John Amato Sunday Apr 19, 2009 1:00pm
Rahm Emanuel not only told George Stephanopoulos of ABC's This Week that no field officers should be prosecuted over breaking the law when it comes to torturing prisoners, but he took it a step beyond and proclaimed that even the lowlife John Yoos and Jay Bybees shouldn't face any consequences for their actions.
STEPHANOPOULOS: What about those who devised policy?
EMANUEL: Yes, but those who devised policy, he believes that they were -- should not be prosecuted either, and that's not the place that we go -- as he said in that letter, and I would really recommend people look at the full statement -- not the letter, the statement -- in that second paragraph, "this is not a time for retribution." It's time for reflection. It's not a time to use our energy and our time in looking back and any sense of anger and retribution.
We have a lot to do to protect America. What people need to know, this practice and technique, we don't use anymore. He banned it.
Look, it's up to us and Congress to push along these hearings and impeachments.
Is that truly what the administration thinks? That people who want to see those who illegally led the country down the road of torture held to account are simply "looking back" in "anger" and "retribution"? Fifty percent of the country favor such investigations, including 69% of Democrats and a majority of independents. Is Rahm saying that President Obama believes they're nothing more than an angry, vindictive mob, and that nobody could possibly have a rational basis for believing that our laws should be enforced?
Manfred Nowak, the United Nations top torture investigator, says that treaties entered into by the United States require criminal investigations:
The United States, like all other states that are part of the U.N. convention against torture, is committed to conducting criminal investigations of torture and to bringing all persons against whom there is sound evidence to court.
For Obama to say "it is the time to look forward" is not a shock to me, but we have to look backward and take action so these insane practices and anything like them never, ever happen again under any president. I understand that the spooks don't want to be prosecuted for following orders and the pressure the president is being put under by these agencies. I'm just fine with seeing Yoo and Addington and Bybee and all the rest of the Bush Administration honchos in shackles doing a frogmarch, justice for their miscreancy in disgracing this country and using the OLC to justify the illegal practice of torture. I think the world needs to see them, too.
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Exceptionalism...
... Let them eat cake!
Exceptionalism...
... Damned be the Rule of Law!
Exceptionalism...
... America is beyond reproach concerning the Rule of Law!
.
a crime committed is a crime committed and
should be prosecuted no matter who committed it.
the political elite DO NOT get a pass because
it may be inconvenient or embarrassing. your position
in an economic, social or political position does not give you
a pass when you commit a crime......
if we are not willing to prosecute those who commit
war crimes, then we need to STFU in our demands of
others who commit war crimes in the world from other
countries like kim il dong.....
hypocracy is an ill fitting mask.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
I checked your site, and it is beyond words that this unelected boil on the butt of what used to be the Democratic Party can make these stupid, insipid, declarations.
COMPLICITY!! only complicit people contribute, carry water for these henious crimes. The US has been looted, sacked, plundered, ergreiously by ALL of the creatures in congress, and in the WH. This is what Rham is covering up, and the rest of the world, living outside a totalatarian state ISN'T BUYING IT!!!
1,320,110 PEOPLE (Iraqies) have been slaughtered since George's Folly.
Money people MONEY lost or stolen $660,259,530,503 DOLLARS.
... it's JUSTICE. We have to keep up the public pressure on this, people. These are war crimes and must be prosecuted. Please, everyone, keep on speaking out.
And Nowak is the chief investigator of torture who says the Geneva Convention accords call for the U.S. to do so. What is wrong with Obama? Didn't he make some campaign promises to investigate what he knows are war crimes?
administration does not enforce laws and lets law breakers go without accounting for misdeeds (on the level of war crimes and atrocities), does this not constitute contempt for the law??
past time for congress to act? is there a chance for action, real action--not kabuki (as in the finance "showtime")??
I think there is a chance, if we keep up the pressure. Loudly!
Imagine what we look like to the outside world, we hold impeachment hearings for sexual behavior occurring in the white house but won't do a thing about torture.
Insanity.
Do you really want a detailed response to that??
Americans don't take kindly to "outsiders" speaking about their country.
yes, they are then as guilty as the Admin 2001-2009
A man murders his pregnant wife and dumps her body in SF Bay. Why is he put on trial? Why look back? Why practice vengeance? Its pointless!
People rob banks all the time, but hey, they need the money! They had a good reason- why be spiteful?
A country invades another country to gain control of their only valuable natural resource, and said country terrorizes not only the invaded countries' population, but It's Own, thru the use of torture. Well, it worked, didn't it? Now no one with power will ever prosecute the criminals. Don't look back- you won't like what you see! NO torturers will be prosecuted! No enablers or beneficiaries of torture will be investigated- we must look forward!
If one is involved in and injured in a 20-car crash, do you flee the moment you are able, and not look back or acknowledge you were anywhere near the horror; or do you stay and help the other victims, try to discover how the crash was caused so that it won't happen again?
If the persons who caused all the death and destruction are pals of yours, or you're scared of them, or they are just plain rich and powerful, does that make everything OK in your opinion?
What the Hell is Obama doing? I'd like to believe He knew releasing the Torture Memos would start a conflagration, and that refusing to investigate and prosecute would add fuel to the fire. Is this "stupid act" really stupid or really an act? Its infuriating to be manipulated either way.
I feel manipulated... but I'm not sure what the END RUN is going to be here from Obama and his people.
To "not look back" is pure legal BULLSHIT. EVERY prosecution is "looking back" to up-hold JUSTICE thru the law. If there is no prosecution for Bush's war crimes and the torturing of prisoners... then there is NO JUSTICE... PERIOD.
I think the PUSH here is coming from all those powerful Democrats in Congress that were briefed by Cheney... AND DID NOTHING. THEY, ALSO could be shown to be complicit if there are trials. They all have hung themselves with their own legal ropes... and now they are saving their own skins.
I think you're right, Wesley. I remember seeing Nancy Pelosi on RachelM not too long ago, and Nancy seemed to be protesting a bit too energetically that Congressmembers who were briefed knew nothing, and were not told certain things. I felt she was a little anxious about that.
Guess that is so 20th Century.
It seems to be the new, unwritten rule, much like a secret handshake that one observes in secret societies, but in this case the promise moves from one President to the next. I won't investigate you, and the next one won't investigate me.
Then why the hell is Charles Manson in prison? HE didn’t kill Tate/LaBianca himself. He wasn’t there. Manson only instigated, ordered, and directed the killing. He must be innocent of all charges too. I guess those who did that crime shouldn’t have been prosecuted either – they were just following orders…
Nixon was right – if the president does it that means NO ONE broke the law.
This is a disgrace.
our criminal laws do not mean anything? Can those on tomorrows criminal dockets now claim that there is no real reason to continue prosecuting them because there is nothing to gain?
Should those hanging judge types think about retirement now.
No more retribution.
Some of the laws still apply, if one of my neighbors (of color or not) were to walk into the seven eleven down the street with a water pistol and point it at someone, they would be in jail for 12 years starting tonight.
My neighbors wouldn't do that but it illustrates a point. It is simply a matter of who you are.
The Democrats FEAR the Republicans. As I recall, then-President Clinton refused to investigate Reagan and Bush for Iran-Contra because "we have to work with these guys!"
And look what it got HIM.
I wonder just what there is to be afraid of? Maybe FOX will promote the next Tea-Party 23 hours per day instead of 22 if Obama doesn't play nice?
They do fear the GOP.
Or they are the GOP? One party and a two-headed monster. Don't believe the right head, when it's clear the left head is telling the truth.
(Disclaimer: The left head can not be responsible for things the right head does.)
or complicity.
A lot of the democrats like Pelosi and Reid had to be privy to the intel and the memos about torture. I believe that is why they don't say shit. They are as guilty as the repugs.
The hand of AIPAC is at work here.
Damn!
Yes, my 'conspiracy' theory is that Iraq was Israel's war by proxy and the only contribution Zionists made was to blow up the TwinTowers. Zionists want their Empire handed to them on a silver plate, bought and paid for by Amerikans like you and me. Isn't that just so sweet??? No wonder Zionists occupy the bottom of the food chain.
we ar facing. AIPAC.
Watch how the rapid defenders of the Zionists converge at the very thought Zionists are being dragged out into the sunlight.
Remember, we are talking about the Zionist here, not the progressive Jewish element who would love to see Emanuel take a hike. I will never forget Kahn's racist immigration stand.
Zionism is a marketing term used to cloak FACISM!! Zionism has NOTHING to do with ethnicity or religion. Fascism always needs some emotional appeal, and Judaism has become it's mantel of authenticity. Many of the so-called 'Evangelicals' (gag) are whole-hearted foot soldiers of this sly, hidden agenda of EMPIRE FOR ISRAEL. As Naomi Klein exposes Zionism is PREDITORY CAPITALISM, and doing ANYTHING necessary to ensure that EMPIRE FOR ISRAEL happens.
personal depravity!
The dim don't fear the repugs ... they are in on it together ... that's why there will be no prosecution of bush officials ... that would lead right to the DNC door implicating big DNC players ... and they don't want that ...
Rahm Emanuel is a dual citizen of USrael who served as a volunteer in the Israeli Defense Force. His father was a member of the Zionist Irgun terrorist cell, a predecessor of the Likud. He no doubt considers the torture of those declared to be enemies of USrael to be of the highest form of patriotism.
At least SOMEONE gets it!
Thanks for the nudge to research more about the second most powerful man in the White House. We need context of the criminal to understand his behavior and just sentence.
Hitting the nail right on the head.
for retribution? The Obama administration may have a point. If the impetus for a special prosecutor or some formal investigation were seen to emanate from the White House then it would be handicapped from the beginning with the stigma of revenge politics. The push for this has to come from congress. Obama can then gracefully acquiesce to the people's wishes and get this matter addressed as it should be. He'll need a push to get over the hill. Start now.
Indeed. The Executive administration has neither the power to prosecute, nor to direct that there will be no prosecution. But why then are they going out of their way to say there should not be prosecution (or investigation)? I don't get it.
If the strategy is to step out of the way and let congress do its job. ok. It just seems like they are punting and it's wrong. I mean diluting his own stimulus is one thing, but passing on such deplorable behavior is disturbing.
What is going to happen to us as people if we pretend none of this ever happened? Or even worse if we allow it to go on without consequence.
Could this be a test of public opinion?
what I think is happening. Pursuing this very divisive subject will require considerable political capital and I think the Obama administration is testing the waters for support. Maybe I'm parsing this wrong but the phrase "this is not the time for retribution" does not necessarily imply that there will never be such a time.
After the Statute of Limitations has run.
Mayor Daly pulled the same crap in Chicago in an attempt to protect the Chicago Police Department from its "widespread and systematic torture."
Conyers wants to extend the SOL on war crimes to 10 years.
Why do I think the enablers will object?
a very astute man. Anyone who publicly opposes such legislation will have to advance a rational for doing so. I guess then we will all know who is on what side. Thanks for the link,by the way, I wasn't aware of Conyers' initiative.
That link also contains a link to Conyers' 487-page (.pdf) report:
http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/printers/...
The title is "Reining in the Imperial Presidency: Lessons and Recommendations Relating to the Presidency of George W. Bush."
I haven't read it yet, but thought y'all might be interested in it.
We have few of them that actually care for the oaths they swore, and the people they represent.
"The push for this has to come from congress"
Here lies the rub. Congressional Democrats are by and large afraid of their own shadow.
No no. They love the shadows.
They are afraid that if they start shedding light on what Republicans do, then the Democrat's shadows will also be taken away. So the Republicans and Democrats have a little unspoken agreement to not take away each other's shadows.
must come from everyone, especially us, the people. Congress is mostly supine, they won't budge unless forced to do so. I guess that's democracy.
Obama is breaking the law by blocking prosecution of these war criminals ... like other posters have stated ... since when is it revenge politics to uphold the law? ... something they swore an oath to ... what about that?
For the record Obama is breaking the law ...
That's called "breaking the law."
Or more aptly, "Breaking the Supreme Law of the Land."
Democrat Rahm Emanuel is a hawk folks. Make no mistake about it folks, Mr. Rahm Emanuel supports these torture policies instituted by the Bush administration. In short, Rahm Emanuel believes in torture just like the Bushies did! There are many more Democrats complicit in this torture policy and to think it has stopped is quite naive and gullible on all your parts. It has continued under the Obama-Emanuel administration. This torture policy now has Rahm Emanuel's signature on it along with the likes of Cheney, Yoo, Gonzales, Bybee, Rumsfeld, Miller, Sanchez, Rice, Feith, etc., and so on. The Obama administration should be ashamed of itself. Anyone still a Democrat after this admission should also be ashamed of themselves as well. The Democrats may as well be Republicans. Dems are set to give out more bonuses to Freddie and Fannie this week too. The Dems have done nothing to help out past union workers at the Big Three Automakers either. Bail out the banks, but blame the workers at the Big Three, is the new motto and battlecry of the Democratic Party these days.
The Democrats are as guilty as Bush administration officials on this one too, by their silence and justifications. The Democratic Party like the Republican Party is void of any sense of moral decency. I can list off all the GOP-lite policies of the Democrats but not in this post. The Democrats can continue Bush's torture policy, all the while saying "we did not start it," yadda, yadda, yadda.
Rahm Emanuel to be sure is not the only the Democrat who supports the torture policies against Muslims and Arabs as well. This torture policy is racist in nature and needs to be condemned.
Again, I am so glad more than ever that I joined the Green Party and no longer watch those mindless and spineless and doofus-oriented Sunday blow---hard fests, and propaganda sessions of both political parties and their media acolytes.
Thanks to Crooks and Liars for keeping me informed of these moral deficient Democrats like Rahm Emanuel who supports anti-Arab and racist policies. Yes, the torture policy would not be condoned if it was directed at white people. Just remember all the black people in America who were tortured to death as well. When brown or black people or non-Christians are tortured, it is okay, even when it is not okay. Rahm Emanuel is scum. President Obama should also be ashamed of himself---some "change" he turned out to be alright!
viable alternative.
They learned their lessons well.
This is the Worst Appointment Obama made!
Rahm is a deal maker and will never do what is Right.
It's to bad we dont have Howard Dean as Chief of Staff
instead of this Clown.
I had hoped that once Bush was out that we'd be free of the neocons and Israeli agents directing and manipulating our foreign policy from inside the inner workings of our govt. I guess that hope was misplaced. I threw up a little when I heard that Obama had appointed a zionist as chief of staff. I guess Lieberman wasn't available.
I keep looking for the change we were promised. But so far the only thing that has seems to have changed is the names of the players. Otherwise, it's still the same old politics as usual.
We have a over 300 million people in this country. Can't we find a set leaders that actually have the courage to stand up for the rule of law? So far all we've found are experts in blame shifting and buck passing.
Hope....Change...Yes We Can....All Empty Words....Words, words, words...and then some crap on top!
The Bush torture policy endorsed by the Obama-Emanuel administration.....Change you can all believe in and be proud....Gotta love that hope....Yes We Can!!!
Perhaps, some of you were stoned when Obama was giving his hope and change speeches....as he was giving George W. Bush a wink and a nod.....
Remember, there must be a very good reason why Bush and Condi Rice have been saying very nice things about Barack Obama....you know, that wink and nod goes a long way....this deal was made long ago between Obama and the Bushies....
Mr. Rahm Emanuel....Prove it!!!
Prove that the U.S. has "stopped its torture" policies, under the Obama administration. Because I do not believe that lie you made on "This Week," for one nanosecond!!!!
a minor point of logic: You can't "prove" the non-existence of anything. Proof is achieved only by example. The ball's in your court.
With the past torture policies of the U.S. and the Obama-Emanuel administration's justification of, it is up to them (Obama and company) to prove with hard data and facts that torture has actually stopped....Until then, I say it has not stopped at all.
Sorry, you are wrong. Usually your argument is correct....however it is not applicable in the case of American torture policies.....
you correctly the use of torture wasn't an American idea it was actually forced on the US by a secret Israeli (read Jewish) cabal. I'll give you people credit; you never quit do you?
... to argue that torture was acceptable. This is straight from the Israeli play book. Likkud scum took the "torture is good" argument all the way to the Israeli Supreme Court. To its credit, that court decided against torture. See page 26
So the IDF and Mossad simply went around the courts.
Sound familiar?
Also, Rahm Emanuel's connections with Israel's far right are not a matter of bigoted fantasy.
they were the first to argue that torture was acceptable is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Are you suggesting that Israeli actions inspired the American use of torture? Is that some form of defense? They tried to justify it first so it's all Israel's fault? I'll suggest that even trying to make that connection is, in fact, a bigoted fantasy.
I'm saying that the same Neocon slime has too much power in both countries. It doesn't matter if the name is Cheney or Bush, Yoo or Netanyahu. (Although the name Lieberman does seem to be featured on the right of both countries - and I never thought I'd hear about a Lieberman that makes ours look like the good one).
This is not a matter of "inspiration," it's a matter of identical philosophies -- a belief in superiority and exceptionalism that negates belief in the universality of human rights.
This is not an American or Israeli belief. But it is a Neocon belief.
And please don't think I'm looking for any defense to torture by any country. I'm against the death penalty in nearly all instances. But for crimes against humanity? I say get a rope.
If not over "the memo's" how about because they're revolting war criminals? Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Rice, Pearle, Wolfie, Alberto, Yoo all (no pun intended) swinging from a beam in Leavenworth or the Hague? Beauty in motion!
Immediately!
Rahm Emanuel is your fine Democrat in Action....and blowhards like Carville, Begala, and Shrum all suck up to all Rahm says and does....Believe me, in Democratic Party circles, they view Emanuel as "another Patton."
I am so glad that Emanuel is one of your fine Democrats.....
I am so glad that I am in the Green Party and not in this spineless and morally deficient Democratic Party....when the Dems cave in to the big insurance companies and fail to bring about a better healthcare system, remember two things:
1. Democrats are also a corporatist party like the GOP
2. That you continue to belong to a party which has long forgotten you unless it is lying to you at election time.
Good day!
GOOD DAY, SIR!
I've heard it from Jon Stewart on the Daily Show and elsewhere, but have never been able to find out where it's from.
Do you like chocolate? It's from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. At the end Gene Wilder says it to Charlie's grandpa (as reported, sternly enough to have scared the actor).
All Wonka says is "Good day sir" nothing more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKG07305CBs
You could be right. I always thought it came from Gene.
But here's your answer:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/...
I remember the line as you quote it from "Tootsie" with both Teri Garr and Dustin Hoffman delivering the line at different times.
I wonder why that never showed up in my Web searches.
The Right-Wingers Must be Happy Today with the Obama-Emanuel decision not to seek "retribution" against Bush and his crime pals.
This decision made by President Obama is one that right-wingers will agree upon, even to their dismay. Obama has finally achieved some "bipartisan consensus." (Wink, wink...nod, nod...)
as an excuse when cops pull me over following multi-mile chases and yell, "Didn't you see all the flashing lights in your mirror?!"
Speed on brother. Hell's only half full...
It is not "looking to the past" to ENFORCE the LAW. Since WHEN is NOT enforcing the law an acceptable option in AMERICA? It is "ignoring the law" to choose to ALLOW LAWBREAKERS TO GO UNPROSECUTED FOR THEIR CRIMES. Since WHEN is the POLITICAL ramifications of prosecution an acceptable/relevant argument?
WHERE does President Obama draw the line when it comes to IGNORING illegal acts? Is it EVERYONE in AMERICA who broke the law during Bush's/Cheney's reign; or is it ONLY those who were active participants in AIDING and or ABETTING Bush and Cheney? Since WHEN is someone who aids and abets a crime not subject to CRIMINAL prosecution?
The precedents that President Obama would set in failing to hold Bush administration appointees and or employees legally accountable for their illegal actions if FAR MORE DANGEROUS TO AMERICA'S FUTURE than whatever POLITICAL COST we might pay.
How can a Constitutional Law Professor advocate IGNORING the reasons that America was founded as a NATION OF LAWS instead of a NATION OF MEN?!
President Obama is WRONG to PREVENT the prescribed enforcement of our laws. In making the argument that "we have more pressing matters to consider", he is making the SAME ARGUMENT to IGNORE our laws that the Bush administration made to VIOLATE them. The ends DO NOT justify the means!
"he is making the SAME ARGUMENT to IGNORE our laws that the Bush administration made to VIOLATE them."
Agreed.
President Obama is your fine Democratic President in Action!
Some "change" America has received since Bush left office, hey?
Don't get me wrong, I cannot stand the likes of Hannity, Gingrich, Coulter, Boehner, DeLay, or McConnell....
But, these Democrats led by Obama are chickensh**s when it comes to taking on the GOP, unless, they really agree with those scums in the Republican Party.....
And you all thought Obama was going to bring some "change" and all.
Revolutions never start from the top down folks...Obama is an empty suit!!! And he is a Democrat--Obama belongs to the Democrats and oh yes, the corporatists....Good day.
Understand this. Obama was way better than the alternative.
be if McCain/Palin were in charge now.
How much different?
Obama has already caved into changing the DADT policy in the military at this time. Obama has not ruled out privatization of Social Security. Obama has continued Bush's faith-based initiative and has continued to welcome anti-gay ministers to the White House for counsel seesions on faith.
Oh yeah, Obama will "bring to justice" lawbreakers in the Bush administration.....Obama likes to blame the auto workers too....Oh yeah, Obama is not a corpotratist...Obama has not escalated the phony war for oil in Pakistan-Afghanistan and killing innocent civilians in the process. Obama has not even stopped the torture policies, either....
I'll bet the McCains would have gotten a shelter dog.
:-)
Besides that, the only difference would be rhetoric.
Ok ok. I'm glad we're not hearing "My friends" every two minutes.
Careful not to equate the present administration with the last one. They are not the same. I agree with much of what Obama has done and accomplished in three months. I strongly disagree with this position. The rest I’ll take a wait and see…
Can you cite some examples, please?
No. This is not an Obama cheer leading thread. Nor is it appropriate to go all Sean Hannity and find fault with every single action and decision Obama has made. The simple reality is that there are things the administration can do immediately, and some things take time. At the same time, this position on torture prosecution is both negligent and short sighted – and wrong.
I am not going "all Sean Hannity" on Obama. I am just pointing out what a fraud he and other Democrats really are.
Just be the Republicans are awful and criminals, does not make it okay for the Democratic Party to join them in those crimes, unless they are part of it themselves.
The writers at Black Agenda Report criticize Obama as an empty suit weekly. Those writers at BAR are black. So, stop that nonsense that Obama is somehow beyond criticism.
One can criticize President Obama without being a "Sean Hannity fan."
I knew it was the difference between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. So do a lot of other people here. Face facts. This is a 2 party system. I didn't want it but here it is. If enough of us voted 3rd party, it would be McCain Palin. Regardless of your distrust of Obama, in no way, shape or form do I want Sarah Palin near the button.
there is no explanation that will satisfy you. But here are a few:
Shook hands with Chavez
Diplomacy with Iran
Lifting of cuban travel restrictions
government spending reviews
Intention to close Gitmo
Resetting diplomacy with Russia
There are also bad moves, and Emmanuel is certainly one. Maybe we can pressure him to resign (remember he was reluctant to take the position in the first place). But this is a far cry better than what we could have had. I voted for Kucinich in the primaries, and Obama in the general election. Am I happy? No. We need to keep the pressure on, and C&L is just one outlet we have. There are still possibilities. If you want to gripe about it, fine. But notice the differences too.
A year from now, it'll all be the same or worse and you'll still be saying "Give him a chance. Wait and see. It's only been a year."
I will. I don't think anyone could undo eight years of Bush in a single year. On the whole I'm very happy with many initiatives already in progress.
One Executive order countermanding every one of Bush's and one bill negating every bill signed by W other than budgets.
I'm pretty sure such actions would have overwhelming support.
in the "magic wand" theory of government. I might point out that Bush did sign some very important bills regarding education. It's probably better to take the baby out of the bath water before giving it the old heave ho.
Either there is a rule of law, or there isn't.
Bob Dylan laid it down in 'The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll' the tragedy is not that the law was broken, its that justice turned a blind eye to it, due to privilege.
since warrant less surveillance was Bush Co's most powerful tool.
The tool that Obama has kept and expanded.
Nuremburg defense for everyone!
Here's a simple truth to chew on: if those who ordered torture, wrote memos giving a veneer of legality to torture or who actually did the torturing at Gitmo and secret prisons were military servicemen - instead of CIA, DOJ and politicians - the book says they'd be facing courts martial and no question about it. What we've not heard from the Obama administration in the wake of recent revelations about excessive torture and excessive legal hoop-jumping to condone it is why CIA, DOJ or White House criminals should get off any easier than soldiers in the field. It's an insult to every serviceman and cuts to the heart of the notion that the Rule of Law applies to all.
Regards, Steve Hynd aka Cernig
Thanks again, Mr. Steve Hynd, aka Cernig
Thanks, C.
I been getting just enough of my Cernig fix here at C&L that I don't visit Newshoggers near as much as I should.
Drop by. Newshoggers could always use the traffic. I'm writing excusively for a 1,000 hits a day blog instead of 400,000 because I promised my 'hoggers partners I'd give them my best and writing for C&L wasn't helping me do that. But it's my baby, so no editorial pressure or schedules to watch. Plus, my partners Ron, BJ and Fes are 3 very sharp cookies. Ron, for example, was DIA for most of 2 decades and is scathing on torture and the Obama WH's "get out of jail card" policy.
Regards, Steve
He will not move forward willingly to pursue criminal investigations against the perps because there is too much blood on the hands of his fellow Democrats such as Jane Harman, Dianne Feinstein, Charles Schumer and on and on.
There are many more Democrats who sat on the House and Senate Intelligence Committees and were fully IN THE LOOP on the torture mandates. They knew. Which means they can go down in flames with Bush, Cheney, etc.
Obama is protecting his own.
It may take an international movement to bring this to a head. An end run around the Obama Administration may have to be done.
What a shame Jonathan Turley isn't Attorney General.
you got it ... Obama is protecting his own ... the DNC and the rest of the elite ... if there is an investigation it would lead back to 911 and the government's involvement ... what do you think would happen if the mass public found out 911 was a false flag operation? ...I wonder if the public could handle the reality that the elite controlling the government thinks nothing of taking their lives ... that's why Obama's administration is going to do everything it can to inhibit an investigation ... I'm not sure the masses putting pressure would be enough to force them ... it would be like a death sentence to corporations and elite all over the world ... no longer could they use fear to control the masses ... they fear the day the people stand in the Light ...
This IS America? HOPE we can believe in? Rule of law? BULL SHIT from the top! I apologize to my country and the world for supporting Obama. Bring on the Great Depression II....I'd rather deal with the guy on the street than these creeps. My military service and all the things I believed in for America was wasted by these immoral fools. We'll see what is left after the revolution.
Reagan and Bush Sr no doubt among three of the worst.
exactly thiers only one way to clense america and these bums now running it ! and the bums they took over from, viva la revolutiona!
Must be happy reading for you today, eh? :-)
Not prosecuting means we allow torture, past, present and future. It's just that simple.
"I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget the men who tortured for you and me..."
Since when is trying those who have broken laws retribution?
Rahm and Obama are trying way too hard to court the middle and seem to have forsaken those of us who worked hardest to get them elected.
Wow, it really sucks to have been lead down this political path. When during the campaign did Obama tell us he wouldn't prosecute, or investigate these matters. I seem to remember a different Obama... how about the rest of you?
And my God, to think that now all we have to hope for is that Pelosi and Reeid can grow a par between them... this ticks me off, BIG TIME! Wake up Obama.
Aren't ALL crimes a part of the past?
Jeez.
.
and the other torture investigators give me optimism that justice will be done.
Perhaps the final decision regarding the legal fate of the Bush crew will be made by the UN or another court. Obama and Emanuel can say whatever they like; in the end, what they think doesn't matter.
Laws do matter. Obama may be unwilling to pursue justice, but the international community is not so forgiving. This could get interesting.
Obama and Emanuel can say whatever they like; in the end, what they think doesn't matter.
Yes, but it is extremely disappointing that they have taken this position. Let's hope Holder's DOJ and Congress don't listen to them.
Frankly, it's getting old and I'm tired of it.
This is turning into a nasty mob scene. The lawyers committed no crime by expressing their legal opinion, very few people were 'tortured,' and the practice seems to have been stopped. A show trail will accomplish very little, if anything, and the future, not the past, is where our danger exists. Grow up, my fellow lefties. and stop demanding the whole loaf. If we take the mob's advice here, all we will do is mobilize the right wing, and lose the Congressional elections in 2010. It's the economy, stupid.
I see people walking their dogs and yapping on twitter but no mobs.
but an overwhelming abundance of yobs.
So it’s political expediency over national and international rule of law? And we’re not talking BJs here, this boils down to the most fundamental human-rights atrocities. What crime, then, is NOT subject to the outcome of the next election in the US? What would an administration have to do before sweeping under the rug is not an option?
Straight from the White House Chief of Staff’s mouth. America allows its leaders to get away with torture because, well, they’re the elite. It doesn’t matter that a majority of Democrats, independents and the country as a whole want investigations - my view in my post today is that they just don’t care.
Right now, I almost feel like the U.S. could do with a bit of “red flag flying here”, power-for-the-people outrage of the Bastille storming kind to shake that elite out of its complacency and arrogant belief that they’re better than us, should have different laws from us. Trouble is, you only end up swapping one elite for anotrher that way. Real revolutionary change is gradual, not the “hope from above” which Obama played on to win and which the wingnut conspiracy believers think is a prelude to a socialist takeover. See Naomi Klein:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-klein/hopeover-hopelash-hopebre_b_188180.html
The real question is, as John says, what to do about it. Maybe it's finally time to 86 the Dems and build a real coalition of the Left. Solidarinosc.
http://amsam.org/2005/10/american-solidarity-...
Regards, Steve
Great post....Sun, 04/19/2009 - 15:30 — Cernig
I think the third party idea will fall victim to the structural impediments of the American electoral system which is not friendly to such beasts and perhaps, more importantly, the inevitable infighting of the competing agendas to which such rainbow coalitions are prey. They usually implode before accomplishing anything. No, I'm more of slow change from within kind of guy. A few years ago gay marriage was not even on the agenda and now it is pretty much inevitable.
Elections Mean Nothing....these days...Thus, why bother voting for the Republicans or the Democrats? They both suck.....and are both criminals.
Time to vote third party...do not fall prey to the hostage words of the anti-third party crowd which just enables the same old policies to continue....
I am so tired of the anti-third party brigade who are the great appeasers for the criminal two-party system which continues to strangle the American people.
Every political party that has ever gained power acquired it's funding through threat of murder, therefore they're all criminal.
The counter-point is that lefties have been banging their heads against the vested-interest brick wall in Dem DC for decades now without much success. The US still has no universal healthcare, is still aggressively militaristic and still suffers from the extreme hubris of the political elite.
My grandfather and three of my uncles were founder members of the British Labour Party. They were told it would never break the inbuilt two-party monopoly of the Whigs and Tories too - and that their movement would be broken by infighting. Imagine if they'd not tried, because of that. The doomsayers' predictions came true - the Labour Party is a shadow of its socialist beginnings and just part of the ruling elite now, having driven out most of the grassroots fire in exchange for Blair/Obama hopeanchange - but it took decades. In the meantime: union strength, welfare safety nets, higher minimum wages, universal healthcare, the dismantlement of Empire.
I rest my case.
Regards, Steve
But look what the Labour Party wound up doing: Iraq. They formed a government by moving to center under Blair and to some degree, at least, lost their way. It seems that political power always leads downhill.
and they always start out with such good intentions. the republican party had it's early champ in lincoln, but that elephant took a dump in america's living room, keeled over & died.
hell, even the illuminati started out with the noble intention of disrupting the monarchs' power structure.
i don't know what they're calling themselves these days, but those numbskulls are about anything BUT enlightenment.
The people that did this were the same group that got away with it under Reagan, the same group that got away with it under Bush I. Each time they progressively became more emboldened to destruct and destroy the system. If the Bush II group are given yet another pass for their obvious 8 year reign of lawlessness I cant imagine what they will do when they (inevitably) come back into power. It will be the end.
So you should know better. These memos were not drafted in good faith and have no sound basis in law. They were drafted to provide legal cover for war crimes, and their authors knew it.
If they did something like this in a civil context they'd be subject to Rule 11 sanctions.
But they did this in the context of war crimes. We prosecuted, convicted and punished Nazis for the exact same actions.
Go find some morals.
It was not just about torture, children of detainees raped, 100 missing bodies. Theres a daughter of a Pakistani female scientist, who lost her daughter, the CIA took them both into custody, the daughter dropped off the lists, missing presumed murdered by the CIA child rapists
Americans isn't that the ultimate free pass?
From my childhood, obedience was something I could not get out of my system. When I entered the armed forces at the age of twenty seven, I found being obedient not a bit more difficult than it had been during my life to that point. It was unthinkable that I would not follow orders.
The torture policy started with Bush/Cheney and was committed by those that folowed orders. The CIA is not a military organization and those that committed the torture could have quit or blown the whistle. They chose to do neither of those but instead obey their orders that they most certainly knew were treacherous at the very least. The military has the uniform code of military justice that allows for a subordinate to refuse to follow an illegal order.
They must ALL be indicted, tried, convicted and punished to the very fullest extent of the law.
By the way, the author of the quote....Adolf Eichmann
They seem to have full time personal, plus working people in other orgs, so you get say Army officers with dual chains of commands, one the normal army one, the other their secret CIA CoC.
For another glimpse into the world of the CIA, read up on the Nazi RSHA, the role model for the post WW2 reconstruction of the OSS into the CIA.
Its moot and debatable which is the top org with the real power in the US, the CIA or the DHS. I suspect its still the CIA with its east coast old money connections, the DHS is more of a regional thing to keep the rubes happy. Look at the caliber of the typical regional DHS employee, shaved heads, stretched ill fitting uniforms and a fondness for all you can eat buffets, and throwing their weight around bullying the hicks. Classical black-shirts vs brown-shirts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSHA
They even have a concentration camp in southern Iraq, a happy place called Camp Bucca, 20,000 plus men women and children incarcerated, some are ex Abu Gharib prisoners from 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bucca
http://www.pulitzercenter.org/openitem.cfm?id...
Since we are letting bygones be bygones.
we have no proof that Bin Laden did anything ... as far as 911 ... some other things ... yeah ... bygones ...
the recent israeli phosphorous bombing of civilians (on camera no less!) is internationally recognized as a war crime and should be prosecuted as such... unless you ask a jew that is, then it is OK and we should just move on and get over it and ignore the human rights violations. they were done in good faith and for a good cause.
one of the people defending the rights of the bush cabal to do what they did is non other than rahm (the jew) emmanuel. i wonder where he got his line of reasoning?
where is the great jewish tradition of jurisprudence? of justice, of honor? apparently they edited the history books too.
classic.
interested in knowing what you'd put in parentheses after Obama's name.
how about (50 billion a year for israel) or (the letdown) or maybe (war criminal reacharound artist) or (W? is that you?)
Or Norman Finkelstein? Or J Street? Or... ah screw it.
If you are so self-cocooned that you're unfamiliar with Jewish criticism of Israel -- especially since the Gaza massacre -- giving examples isn't going to help.
do you? Whatever criticism you have to offer about Israel (and there are plenty of legitimate ones) introducing the Israel motif into every discussion betrays an unhealthy obsession. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I don't propose to make further comments about this as, no doubt, the site monitors will quite rightly have to intervene but I'll just add that putting "the jew" in parentheses marks jimn0 as a racist in my book.
All of them.
'jew' is not a race. never has been, never will be. maybe if you hold your breath long enough it will be. i am willing to wait.
not really but just to humor you, answer this:
are you a sammy davis jr or a david lee roth jew?
you cant be both and since they are ostensibly different races, your racism argument is once again full of holes.
how can i be a racist when i dont even know what you look like?
lesson over.
having worked in the middle east and lived in NYC, Team Apartheid gets all the respect they have earned.
ever notice how no matter who they elect in the 'democracy' of israel, the situation just gets worse and more desperate for the civilians caught in the middle?
just wondering
The fact that this person can't discriminate between Zionism, a marketing tool for the PREDATOR class, and ethnicity, and religion and shouldn't be blamed. Many Evangelicals also have been sucked in, so, not JEWISH per say. Ethnicity also has nothing to do with Zionism. Obama is a Zionist as is Rahm, Biden, Kneepads Nancy, bend-over-take-up the butt, Reid, Hilly, most of the congress has been schilled and recruited for this intention to give BLOODY ISRAEL it's very own Empire. The fact that many people can't discriminate between ethnicity, religion, and a cheap marketing tool, is proof of the effectiveness of good 'ol AIPAC. (gag)
parentheses after Obama's name is (Zionist gag)
Even for me to defend Obama. Sad, really.
....anger and retribution. I love my President, but can't help but think he has made some kind of "deal with the devil" on this. The devil being "W" of course.
Eighty years of Bush org crime family dabblings in dubious politics.
Obama may do a lot of good things but as far as I am concerned he's a bust and just another bullshit American politician , he sure is not what he tried to portray and make us believe , this is a real let down and it's wrong , this is bullshit as is the defense and approval of illegal spying . America the great hypocrite , the American government is above the law , it's own laws and international law as well . This sets real good precedence now doesn't it .Patriotism ? Kiss my butt ! God damn these people !
That's what I'm going to tell them if I have any tax problems. "Don't be angry or vengeful" "I'll do better next year" "Fuggettaboutit!"
somebody's still got a sense of humour. LOL.
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