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Siun over at FDL keeps a very close eye on coverage of the wars in the Middle East. There is quickly forming a schism within the progressive community on what to do about Afghanistan.

At the heart are the questions, What is our objective? How do we define success? There are no easy answers and the vagueness from the brass may be the reason that Obama only ordered a fraction of the expected number of troops to Afghanistan. Siun looks at the continuing conversation on what to do about Afghanistan:

Last week, the National Security Network – which describes itself as "the progressive national security community" – released a statement on Afghanistan. Our friend Spencer Ackerman reported on it’s release in the Washington Independent.

According to Spencer’s article, Heather Hurlburt of NSN described the goals of the statement as an attempt to come up with a progressive consensus. After two weeks of consultations, the statement was released – apparently to the press and then to those of us in the "advocacy community."

Hurlburt said that she wanted to work out a sense from the “expert community” of what was achievable and realistic for Afghanistan before taking the document to “progressive advocacy” organizations like Get Afghanistan Right to secure buy in. She conceded that there would be disagreements that probably can’t be fully resolved.

This timing certainly raises a whole bunch of questions about the NSN’s interest in engaging in a genuine discussion. It also makes me wonder why those of us who oppose escalation are considered “advocates” and “activists” yet those who advocate sending more troops – as NSN itself does – are instead “experts.”

As far as I can tell – and I would be very happy to hear otherwise from NSN -- no Afghans were invited to participate in this process. I guess they are not “experts” either.

Along with the bumpiness of NSN’s process, the statement itself is quite far from what I would consider a “progressive” approach. Both Alex Thurston in his “Response to NSN on Afghanistan” at the Seminal and in Meteor Blade’s recent post at DailyKos raise a number of issues and are very worth reading.

As I read the NSN statement, one section in particular was very disturbing. Under “Principles: The ‘How’ and ‘For What?’” they recommend that the Obama administration:

Adopt a counter-insurgency strategy that reinforces, rather than works against, the principles above. Military decisions should be made with an eye to meeting Afghan security concerns; developing an Afghan security force capable of controlling territory and offering protection; and, as many Afghans and some military observers have advocated, phasing out tactics that have increased civilian casualties with questionable payoffs. (emph. added)

Phase out? Questionable payoffs?

In their introduction, the NSN says their goal is a statement that forms:

a baseline of what must be achieved for our national interests and our moral obligations – to our military, our citizens and the people of Afghanistan. (emph. added)

Yet instead of raising the need for US compliance with the Geneva Conventions requirement that civilians be protected – and in fact, despite the fact that even our commanders in Afghanistan have consistently identified – and promised to change those “tactics” because they lead to civilian casualties – the progressive “experts” simply recommend “phasing [them] out.”

This after US ground forces killed 53 civilians in January alone. And this weekend we learn that we’ve killed another 13 Afghan civilians – including 6 women and 3 children in a “precision air strike.”

About Nicole Belle
Nicole Belle's picture
Mom, Wife, Media Critic/Political Analyst, Blogger, Austen Fanatic, Unapologetic Liberal NicoleBelle@crooksandliars.com
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51 Comments
burnt's picture

destroy the Taliban.

work with local government to tax "right wing" Islamic extremist organizations until they're powerless.

burn every poppy field you find, and try to develop some kind of long term "pesticide" to prevent new poppies from growing.

work with local government to develop new industry and to train the locals to upgrade their schools and infrastructure.

stop shooting/bombing toddlers.

Liberal AND Proud's picture

Taliban...created by the ISI...otherwise known as the Pakistani secret police.

ISI presently being trained by...the CIA! LOL!.

Burn the poppy fields! LOL! Right...then how will the CIA get funded?


Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.

Simon Bar Sinister's picture

.....I was just gonna say..... Where do people like this get their info from, anyway?

Liberal AND Proud's picture

we pay to protect the crops...and then pay full boat for the product.

Geez...can't we get some kind of employee discount or something?


Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.

Abbybwood's picture

That the pharmaceutical companies need to make morphine.

Sure, there is a major heroin problem, but the poppies grow there because it's a perfect place for them to grow. God gave us the poppies like God gave us marijuana. Recall Genesis? "I have given you every herb bearing seed and for this shall be your food."

The first thing that must be done is to discover the truth about what REALLY occurred here in the United States on 9/11. I do not believe we know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth on that matter.

Our involvement against "Al Queda" has EVERYTHING to do with the events of 9/11.

We need to re-think our involvement with Israel. They have grown into a criminal, aggressive rogue "state" and we happen to be their primary sponsor.

We need to ask Russia how things went down with their war in Afghanistan. Actually, Obama's chief foreign policy adviser, Zbigniew Brezinski, should be questioned, under oath, about his relationship with Osama bin Laden and the CIA.

At the least we should remove all troops from the Middle East and work with the U.N. to make a deal with the Taliban to guard their poppies and sell them at fair market price to various international pharmaceutical companies so especially the world's poorest and suffering can have pain relief.

They go without it now in such countries as India. It's a crime.

Just sayin'.


"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn

Liberal AND Proud's picture

if we kill all the Poppies...then the chiquitas will no longer have anyone to take them on a date.

OLE'!

LOL.


Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.

Where they have strict controls.

92% of the poppy crop used to make illegal narcotics comes from Afghanistan.

From that link:

The counter-narcotics policies currently being pursued in an attempt to resolve Afghanistan’s poppy crisis are risking the international community’s entire stabilisation mission, but until the poppy crisis is positively and sustainably addressed, the country’s security and development crises cannot be resolved. As such, if the international community fails to resolve the opium crisis, its mission to stabilise Afghanistan will also fail, leaving the country vulnerable once more to penetration by international terrorists.

In particular, the forced eradication of poppy crops is fuelling support for the Taliban and the insurgency, thereby compromising international troops’ safety and their mission in Afghanistan; and poppy crop substitution programmes are failing Afghanistan’s farming communities. Forced eradication and poppy crop substitution strategies are failing to provide Afghan farmers with access to the resources and assets necessary to phase out illegal poppy cultivation. A careful re-assessment of counter-narcotics strategies in Afghanistan is necessary to successfully address the country’s illegal poppy production.

----------

Poppy for Medicine is an alternative counter-narcotics strategy that has been successfully implemented in many countries. It involves licensing the controlled cultivation of poppy to produce essential poppy-based medicines such as morphine, and unlicensed poppy cultivation remains a criminal activity.

Poppy for Medicine projects were established in Turkey in the 1970s with the support of the United States and the United Nations, as a means of breaking farmers’ ties with the international illegal heroin market without resorting to forced poppy crop eradication. Within just four years, this strategy successfully brought the country’s illegal poppy crisis under control.

----------

By transforming poppy into morphine medicines in Afghan villages, the entire poppy cultivation system can be controlled at two levels, by maximising Afghanistan’s renowned tradition of strong local control systems. With medicines being produced in the village, the villagers, together with government officials and international actors, can secure the entire manufacturing process, from the seeds to the final medicine tablets. ‘Exported’ directly from the villages to Kabul and international markets in tablet form, the trade in locally produced medicines can be completely secured.

The economic profits from Poppy for Medicine projects will remain in the village, providing the necessary leverage for farming communities to diversify their economic activities. Further, the profits generated by exporting morphine tables would accommodate all stakeholders, including middle-men and local power-holders. Producing internationally tradable commodities, Poppy for Medicine projects would also benefit the central government.

Just sayin'...

Liberal AND Proud's picture

Yes...and the baseball players were taking steroids for medicinal purposes.


Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.

burnt's picture
.

I prefer not to use a book full of fairy tales to validate political opinion, if its all the same with you.

Hello. I didn't know noecons came in here.


far left loon >.<

How about, get the hell OUT of Afghanistan instead of destroying it further? Just destroy, kill and burn; spray the fields with chemicals. Why not napalm?? Yeah, right. And anyone wonders why America isn't everyone's little darling.


far left loon >.<

Sounds kinda puerile to me, but America never understands other countries, so I'm not suprpised.


far left loon >.<

Much easier and more sensable to destroy the neo-cons.

wheyghey's picture

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/A...

An appeals court in Afghanistan upheld 20-year prison sentences Sunday for two men who published a translation of the Quran that drove religious leaders to call for their execution.
The controversial text is a translation of Islam's holy book into an Afghan language without the original Arabic verses alongside. Muslims regard the Arabic Quran as words given directly by God. A translation is not considered a Quran itself, and it is believed a mistranslation could warp God's word.
A host of Muslim clerics in this conservative Islamic state have condemned the translation — which was published in 2007 and handed out for free — as blasphemous and accused its publishers of setting themselves up as false prophets.
Critics have said the trial illustrates the undue influence of hard-line clerics in Afghanistan's fledgling legal system.

Well, at least they only got 20 years of torture in an Afghan prison and not execution.

were reversed? If, instead of soldiers of the "Christian" Murkin military occupying afghanistan, soldiers of a Muslim state exercised that sort of influence in Murka and, when their expectations were affronted, the decided that Murkin 'grossness' required Sharia?

There are, of course, also people in the Murkin wacko-fundie woodwork who would approve similar treatment of blasphemers against THEIR "holy writ," too...

Culture is relative. You worry about yours. Theirs is their business.

Ah, so full withdrawal from all foreign lands.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Welcome to non-interventionist foreign policy.

Did you vote for Ron Paul?

ConcernedCanuck's picture

Quit lying. Quit killing. Go home and leave these poor people alone.

Erroll's picture

Concerned Canuck

Excellent suggestion. Will the person in this link ever admit that the reason that the United States is in Afghanistan is to protect the pipelines that run from Central Asia to the Caspian Sea?

http://www.darianworden.com/pics/votedemocrat...

Simon Bar Sinister's picture

.... will run from the Kaspian Sea to the Indian Ocean through Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Note: Obama is increasing the military pressure in both countries. Nice pic, BTW.

Simon Bar Sinister's picture

was nagging at Clinton in the late 90's. He said in short: "The timing is not right".

Then came 9/11, and with "Big Oil" in the White House........

As far as I know it was started, but not finished yet.

Much longer than an east-west pipeline with a terminal in Georgia, and much more insecure(though after the Georgian-Russian War last year, security risks may be equal). Through Afghanistan, through the Khyber Pass, through Pakistan and into India.

Andy K's picture

The January '98 agreement bogged when Gazprom pulled out that June, and died when Unocal pulled out that January.

Then an agreement between Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan in 2002 stalled. And, AFAIK, the talks that resumed in 2006 between those three countries and India haven't resulted in any construction, either.

ConcernedCanuck's picture

no nation on the planet is in Obamastan to get terrorists and everybody knows it. Hell, where they been bombing? Oh ya, Pakistan. So if the thinking is like Bushies "fight 'em over there instead of here", are they not, once again, in the wrong g-damn country?

This is one of the few times I agree with you. Just get the hell out of Afghanistan. If Al Qaeda do their training camp deal just send in a drone or two and torpedo em. Wait for them to show their heads again and do it again. What exactly are we doing there now anyway?

It's just we Canadians are more direct with the ugly truths (you may not want to hear.) I'm sure you must feel collective shame and guilt, but don't shoot the messenger.


far left loon >.<

Perhaps Afghanistan should start a blog here at Crooks and Liars, home of the cohesive progressive voice.


“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder

Without clear and specific answers to both questions justifying the death and destruction, we shouldn't be there (or anywhere).


Corruption favors the wealthy.

fiver's picture

... and it would be nice if the answers were true.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

We are there because it is a convenient (read 'weak') State in the region from which USer "Grand Game" strategists could "project US influence into" (that is, put under USer bomb-sights) potentially antagonistic States, competitors for resources in the region.

That's pretty much the why of it. Well, there was a pipeline deal a long time ago, too, which is still stalled.

as to getting out, it's probably gonna have to be by airplane, because more or less 'unfriendlies' control the ground routes.

Gonna need a LOT of drones to fly the USer Expeditionary Force to safety...

Get on a bus, Gus; flag down a cab, Tab; load up the lorry, Maury...

Simon Bar Sinister's picture

Isn't the pipeline project, that your former employer Unocal put you there to oversee, on schedule?

Don't worry. Your pal Obama is sending 17 000 troops to protect your interests.

oldtree's picture

Is there any reason for us to be in Afghanistan? It is claimed that some of the Saudi citizens that are supposed to have attacked in 2001 trained there and that Bin Laden lived there. That's it.
This is a poor reason to ruin a nation that didn't have a thing to do with it. It is even more obtuse why we continue killing their citizens today.
so, anyone with any reasons why should be able to bring them up, right? No rational explanation except "we are there, so we have to do something", is ever put forth.

Do we the people, make so much money from the sale of Afghani opium that this is why we are there? It is the only logical excuse remaining.

Simon Bar Sinister's picture

....@ 11:35

Except that Hamid wants us out too.

Simon Bar Sinister's picture

....is that just paying lip-service to the likes of you and me?

Liberal AND Proud's picture

I don't mind a little lip service now and then.


Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.

Simon Bar Sinister's picture

I just don't like the idea of an old flatulent Afghan.........

ConcernedCanuck's picture

wouldn't survive too long without his overlords cash and troops.

Simon Bar Sinister's picture

..... of Kabul.

Captain Kangaroo's picture

square block of Kabul. Let's just leave.

Liberal AND Proud's picture

we don't make "so much money"...we make STUPID AMOUNTS OF MONEY!


Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.

woody's picture

here.

It's the old "Grand Game."

Way better than vids, cuz real people get fucked up...

ConcernedCanuck's picture

if anyone read this or not, but:

Obama's Refusal To Reverse Bush Policy In Afghanistan Angers Human Rights Groups
Less than a month after signing an executive order to close the Guantanamo Bay prison camp, President Barack Obama has quietly agreed to keep denying the right to trial to hundreds more terror suspects held at a makeshift camp in Afghanistan that human rights lawyers have dubbed "Obama's Guantanamo".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/22/obam...

So, apparently, torture and the right to deny basic human rights will be OK with this administration, as long as it isn't at Gitmo.

More evidence, it would seem, of what little difference there is between the Republicans and the Democrats. Have actions like this [such as not wanting willing to impeach Bush and Cheney when Obama was a senator, refusing to significantly cut the military budget, a willingness to invade and occupy other countries, not calling for a single- payer health care plan, etc.] by Obomb-a finally given way to buyers' remorse on the part of the liberals or will liberals still harbor the illusion that Obomb-a is that much more different than a Republican?

Tom Servo's picture

'Obomb-a'?

How cute, what are you, 10 years old?

Tom Servo

No, I am not ten but rather a Vietnam veteran who is tired of seeing liberal interventionists like the [alleged] agent of hope [but not to the Afghans] bomb the hell out of innocent women and children. What you fail to acknowledge [because you are unable to] is that the nomenclature of Obomb-a certainly suits Obama since Obama is most definitely ordering 500 lb. American bombs being dropped on innocent civilians who never threatened anyone in these United States. I also happen to believe that your hero deserves to be standing in the dock, just as Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld should, to answer charges that they have committed war crimes and crimes against peace and crimes against humanity against the Iraqi and Afghan people.

"Trolling"? Hardly, as that banal and childish term is not nearly as accurate as the truth which is that Obama is just as guilty of murdering innocent civilians as is George W. Bush.

when we win...

Now as to what 'winning' entails, they can't seem to elaborate on that point.

Ferrofluid's picture

are the only three words needed

Ferrofluid

Indeed. If only our warmonger president could be convinced of the wisdom of those three words.

cwazycajun's picture

We will never get anywhere with them if we continue to bomb..we need to do what hamas did in palistein ,,,, build thats how the got power they build roads and schools and helped with the infastructure...it what reagan promised to do in afghanistan after the russians left but didnt thats how all this BS with al-qaeda started in the first place reagan left them high and dry with nothing but bombed building and no resorces to fix them...we need to build instead of bomb with us and the UN we can do this and bring the ppl of afghanistan over to our side and against the taliban you cant win hearts and minds if you splatter them with bombs all over the countryside

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