Is The Christian Establishment Belatedly Embracing Harry Potter?
By Nicole Belle Sunday Jul 19, 2009 3:00pmI shall always be grateful to JK Rowling and the legend of Harry Potter. My eldest child had resisted reading HP, despite the fact that I had purchased and read each of the books up to that point and raved about them. She preferred her far less challenging Rainbow Fairy and Junie B. Jones books, and even those she rarely picked up. But finally, in the summer of 2005, out of sheer boredom, she picked up the first Harry Potter book. She was so enthralled, she stayed up until late into the night, reading by flashlight. She finished the first book in three days; the second book took only two. By August, she had finished through Book 6 and had started the series over again. Thus was born my incredible book-lover child, who now reads voraciously (she checks out ten books every weekend from the library) and has tackled such classics as To Kill A Mockingbird and Pride and Prejudice as well as pop hits like the Twilight series and Meg Cabot's books.
But it all began with Harry Potter.
Naturally, as a mother, I was and am still thrilled that she is such a curious and hungry reader, but there was a hiccup along the way. I had taken my kids to the neighborhood pool and my eldest was cooling off in the shallow end with the ever-present HP book in her hand. One of the neighborhood children, seeing what my daughter was reading, volunteered as children will that her parents would not let her read Harry Potter, because it was about witchcraft and was not something a good Christian would read. Luckily, I was close enough by to be able to tell this child gently that while we respected others' beliefs, that it was MY belief that ideas are never bad things and that my children would never be prevented from reading things that interested them. I bit my tongue to keep from telling this child that the fact her parents were scared by fictional characters showed how shaky their faith must be.
Nevertheless, it began an very interesting (and ongoing) conversation with my child about censorship and fear. She sought out more information about these evangelical fears of Harry Potter, and I have to tell you, I'm so proud of how strong of mind she's grown in these four years. I've no doubt that she would be able to tell that little neighbor kid off on her own now.
But it looks like now that the book series is complete and the whole story is known, the evangelical community is having a change of heart:
Conservative Christian reviews of the new Harry Potter movie are surprisingly positive.
"As 'Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince' opens, we are once again reminded of the characteristics that make him something of a Christ figure," Connie Neal writes for the evangelical Christianity Today.
"It is more likely that at the end of the viewing or reading, rather than the allure of magic ... what remains are the scenes that evoke values such as friendship, altruism, loyalty, and the gift of self," wrote L'Osservatore, the Vatican's semi-official newspaper.
Even Focus on the Family's pluggedin finds something redeeming: "Harry, whatever his faults, embraces such unglamorous words as 'duty,' 'responsibility' and 'sacrifice.'"
Has Harry or one of his Hogwarts cohorts cast some sort of spell over conservative Christendom?
After all, it was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) who in 2003 warned that Harry Potter books and movies "are subtle seductions, which act unnoticed and by this deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly."
It was James Dobson of Focus on the Family who in 2007 denounced the series, saying that "given the trend toward witchcraft and New Age ideology in the larger culture, it's difficult to ignore the effects such stories (albeit imaginary) might have on young, impressionable minds."
And it was the American Family Association's Donald Wildmon who described the Harry Potter series as "books that promote witchcraft and wizardry."
Hardly. In fact, as more conservative Christians seem to be realizing, the "Harry Potter" series actually promotes Christian themes.
In the final book of the series, Harry reads two verses from the New Testament: The first (from I Corinthians 15) on his parents' tombstone that says, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death"; a second (from Matthew 6) on another tombstone that reads, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
"Those two particular quotations he finds on the tombstones at Godric's Hollow, they sum up -- they almost epitomize the whole series," author and Christian J.K. Rowling told MTV in 2007.
Um, it's still fiction, guys. But I do find it so ironic that once again, the evangelical community went off in ignorance over something that once their initial fear and fearmongering was over, they found commonality in.
That's what we in the reality-based community like to call "not judging a book by its cover." You should try it more often.
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Only unreality. Embrace it!
(Snark)
Maybe she's ready for Carlos Castaneda far more challenging material then Potter.
I prefer fiction that is correctly labeled as such.
... but I found it disturbing when a college professor made one of his books required reading material. Even I, a 19 year old, could tell it was obviously fiction.
That's like using the book 'Dune' as required reading in a course on religion.
I was also bothered by the fact that Castaneda waited years before he admitted that his books were indeed fiction.
I haven't ready any of the Harry Potter books. Maybe I will someday. I've seen the movies and they're alright. A fun distraction, but no visual orgasm like some people seem to think.
Maybe the books are better, and if they get kids to read, then that's fantastic.
I was struck by poor choices made in modifying the books' plots in order to make the movies. The Half-blood Prince's plot was mangled to make the movie. The books are tremendous, the movies only mediocre. Also, I'm pissed that they say that HP has "christian themes", they're selling the rest of the human race short, they are remarkably human themes.
The Bible is on par with Dune when it comes down what's fiction.
Quite frankly, I find 'Dune' to be much more believable.
There is a long record of assimilation of “formerly” pagan ideas into Christian mainstream thought, eg Christmas, Easter, Halloween like celebrations in Catholic south of the US border places. I was told a couple years ago that Harry P. was metaphorically Jesus Christ; I am waiting for mainstream Christian expansion of that idea.
did every other "belief" and rite that they have.
Rowling was very careful NOT to include any religious icons of any sort, and it was this lack that enraged many Christian scholars during the course of the first four books. After that, the furor in general just died down, as fewer scholars in general wrote about the series. But lately, it has become fashionable to embrace an obviously popular thing.
Previous writers of British fantasy, notably Tolkien and C.S. Lewis (of Narnia fame), were unabashedly Christian in their personal life and wrote allegorically. Rowling cannot be put into that category, which is a large part of why the Christian scholars turned against her in the first place.
Shoot, back in 1989, my babysitter's Baptist preacher had said that the Power Rangers were evil, so she got rid of those movies. The kids really cried over that one! It just goes to say that somebody can see unacceptable literature/entertainment anywhere, and seek to ban it for everyone's children. That's the nature of any form of extremist.
Power Rangers? Sheesh.
My son was heavily into the Power Rangers! Now he is embarrassed that he ever liked them.
She should have just let it run it's course.
Tolkien was well known to bristle at suggestions that there was allegorical subtext in his work and that anyone who did so in their writing was not worth reading.
They still hate the books, But this is a case of If you can't Beat it Use it for your own needs.
They couldn't win the ban HP fight so there going to instead use the books to "spread the word" so to speak.
but money rules on Earth.
Send it to Dobson, et al. Those televangelists will make sure it is used to do "God's work." I didn't even know God needed help.
and if anyone buys her story that she came up with potter in a dream while riding on a train, ive got some swampland in florida to sell ya
potter is a conglomeration of gaiman's books of magic, herberts dune, tolkein, lewis and star wars
im glad that hp has made more children hungry to read...but for many it just leads to reading more crap, like the twilight series
the best thing that happened to rowling is the christian outrage at her books....all publicity is good
but it still kills me that a master like gaiman is still barely known outside the literary world, and that hack is a megastar
It's more like "Bewitched" from the sixties than any of those you mentioned.
was larry tate the model for voldemort?
Dr. Bombay is the correct answer.
I must know more!
... the author of books such as Neverwhere (made into a series on BBC), Stardust (which has been turned into a graphic novel and a major motion picture), and the novels American Gods and Anansi Boys.
The Sandman?
stardust was originally a mini series with illustrations by charles vess (another genius)...not a graphic novel
it was reprinted in paperback form...without the illustrations
Stardust is a movie that I found enchanting. That's one of his books... Cool!
My kidlet HAS read a ton of Gaiman, and loves it.
I just bought her M is for Magic for her bday. The Graveyard Book was fantastic, as was Coraline, Mirrormask, Stardust, etc.
and someday, someone is gonna find a picture in his attic that ages instead of him, because i swear, he looks the same now as the first time in met him over 20 years ago
Anyone who has studied literature will recognize the archetypes in those author's works as well as Harry Potter. There is nothing new under the sun.
Heh. One of my lit teachers use to tell us that there are only three real stories ever created. The rest is just details.
Umm, you forgot the enormous literature of British boarding schools, which it is clearly part of. The rest of it is the hero's journey stuff that's been a significant part of literature in every language since time immemorial -- going back to that well doesn't make a writer a hack.
I've never heard of Gaiman so can't fully evaluate the truth of your statement. But let's assume that it's true - it still doesn't diminish the creative effort that goes into 'conglomerating' ideas from several different sources. All authors do that, after all. You yourself cite FIVE different sources that you think she used, and it would stand to reason that she used some of which you are unaware. So there's no plagiarism involved, and whether someone is a hack or not is determined by the product not the process.
What exactly is your complaint?
Tim Hunter from the Books of Magic series shares only three things in common with Harry Potter; They're both English, they both wear glasses, and they both use magic. After that there is very little they have in common.
this movie had was a passing resemblance to The Ten Commandments during the scene at the cave. Nothing more. Christians will try to see what they want in anything even when it's not there. And believe me, I've read the books, seen the films, and there is nothing evangelical in them. But believe me, they'll be so many "Harry as Christ" essays when the final film comes out. Sad that evangelicals try to ruin everything enjoyable with their rambling nonsense.
The fundamental
ly retardedchristians changed their tune on The Simpsons, going from "enemies of family values" to "representing family values". They knew they were losing and that their own followers embraced The Simpsons, so they gave up and embraced them. Why would it surprise to see a change in their attitude here?Sundays. The Catholic Church is pathetic.
suddenly will embrace "reading" any and all material because educating ones self is important then claim they came up with this idea? What can you do besides shake your head and give a rueful laugh at the irony.
Some people have nothing better to do I suppose. Too bad that same these people never seem to consider that the one book that has caused more death than any other in this world is the book they praise most highly.
I despise organized religion. I attended a live-in convent school, and I was informed by a very wise nun that truth can always be questioned as it will always win. It may take some time, but I have found that to be true.
Did you read the books TO your daughter? While my kids love Harry, when I read one of the books (the second one) aloud to them, I was appalled at how clunky the writing was. Now Lemony Snicket, there's a writer who knows how things sound. The Series of Unfortunate Events books are some of the best read aloud literature for kids I've ever encountered. I'm told Rowling's writing got much better as she went, but I couldn't bring myself to wrestle with her again. Though, as I said, my kids had no problem with devouring them all.
By the fourth one, the story becomes darker and more dense. You should finish reading them!
stuff like posting a Beatles Classic on youtube with . . "me singing Hey Jude in my bedroom." They'll be able to think above that level.
That's one of the things she stopped appreciating when she was about 6. She's read the entire Lemony Snicket series (I told you, she DEVOURS books now).
We did borrow the Jim Dale-read audio versions of HP for a trip down to LA to visit family and she thought those were very well done.
(DEVOURS books) because "Technology" is turning the world into a bunch of idiots with a zero attention span.
We've got technology, but my husband and I are good about forcing them to turn it off occasionally.
She just took out another six books yesterday at the library and put five others on the waiting list.
She obviously "get's it". Getting into a good book is fun.
is the only one I've ever read. It wasn't so much the clunky writing that bothered me as the idea that Harry, an abused and bullied child forced to live in a cupboard, then could turn around with his mates in for what is all intents and purposes an 'upper class' English public (private) boarding school and themselves bully the ghost of some poor girl killed in the toilets.
That, and the idea that Harry Potter is so wonderful and admired because... well... because... ummm.... he's Harry Potter. He hasn't actually DONE anything yet to warrant such adulation, other than be born to fulfil some predetermined destiny.
So, sorry, I really disliked the whole upperclass entitlement by birth snobbery and even cruelty being promoted by the book. I couldn't bother to go on with the rest...
To write a series of books that children would stay with as they got older. The first Harry Potter book was pretty simplistic - still well-written, but it seemed more appropriate for younger children, but then the narrative matured as the series advanced. And that's kind of a smart thing to do as there can be a big gap in maturity between a kid at 12 reading the first book and a kid just a year later having waited for the 2nd book to come out and reading it.
Who cares what conservatives think?
Make sense?
I hadn't realised they were even against them, but why should I be surprised?
Who cares what they think, is right.
Conservatives have no imagination and no sense of humour. (They do make good Nazis.)
..a fan of Harry Potter to begin with and nothing I have seen has changed my feelings one iota.
Mind you, it has nothing to do with the subject matter (I'm a big fan of Speculative Fiction/Fantastic Stories in general) but the whole hoopla has rubbed me the wrong way.
Leviticus 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
This is one of the very few scriptural references to wizardry and witchcraft. It happened to pop up in my reading this morning. As someone who loves Christ dearly, I have no problem with stories set against the backdrop of a wizard school; nor do I regard the reading of such as 'whoring' after wizards.
That there's no such thing as wizards, witches, magic, etc.
If there are no witches, wizards, magic, etc., then there might not be saintly miracles, either!
Did not bear the image of Jesus or the Virgin Mary (not that I or anyone else could possibly know what either of them looked like.) Could this be definitive proof in the non-existence of God?
The first 5 HP books to my children--they could read for themselves, but it was a special time for us every evening. I read aloud to them until they were 16 and 13. And we had fun with the voices and the language jokes (like Dolores Umbrage--adding insult to injury!).
In between the book releases, we went through the Narnia Chronicles, the Redwall series, and "The Lord of the Rings."
My older son, now 22, reads Shakespeare plays for fun. Both are science fiction enthusiasts. And both like to read. A lot. And we share books and talk about books frequently.
three of my nieces to this last night. It was horrible. Honestly. I've read the books, and any author that can get kids to read, is fine by me, but these movies should have ended 2 or 3 movies ago.
This movie had no direction, very little plot except for teen love, and very little action. Even though this book was dry, at least it explained much that was to come. The movie? Terrible. My nieces were actually bored half way through it.
Half Blood Prince was the only book in the series that I didn't like, and reading it you couldn't help think what a lousy movie it would make.
The problem is that book six didn't really hold together as a work unto itself - it seemed to be written as an elaborate introduction to book seven. In fact I would say that to my tastes the series peaked with book five, which really had the story moving along quite nicely. Things were set up to move in a particular direction, and books four and five were full of portents and clues as to what would be revealed later. Then Rowling took a sharp turn into something else entirely. I'm afraid she over-indulged in one of her favorite habits as a writer -- that being her penchant for misdirection. She really loves setting things up to make the reader believe one thing is going on, then revealing at the end that it's the opposite. It's a bit disturbing.
Terry Pratchett. I read Nation in another class, YA Lit. Got totally hooked!
Small gods is a delight!
Madeleiene L'Engle and the "The Wrinkle in Time" series is what got my daughter crazy hooked on books.
"Christian Establishment?" No such thing. I think the author meant to say "Fundamentalist Establishment". Please don't lump all Christians under one roof.
For the record, I'm an apatheistic agnostic who was raised in what used to be called a "mainstream Protestant denomination", the kind the Reichwing fundies hate.
That;s what I was raised as and yeah fundies hate that kind of old time Christianity with a passion. Far too tolerant for their tastes.
these are fundies we're talking about. The mainline "dead churches" (as the fundies like to call them) seem to be more relaxed about these books.
If not, I would have.
The "Christians oppose Potter" thing is and was overblown. A few over-zealous fundamentalists gave Rowling free publicity, but most Christians I know, including pastors, have no problem with the books.
I know one pastor who gave the first edition of the first book to their grandchildren. It was bought on a trip to England, just on the cusp of the Potter phenomenon. It didn't end happily though; the other grandparents (evangelicals of another denomination) found the book, and without having read it but because they had heard about it, they tossed the book out, believing it to be 'evil'.
The point is, it's not "Christians" who oppose Potter, and certainly not the "Christian Establishment". It's a few fundamentalist wackos and their gullible followers. Big difference.
Sam Harris Religious Moderates:
[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82YIluFmdbs ]
...but in my sense of religious establishment, it's hard to say that the Pope, Dobson and Wildmon are fringe leaders.
I do not mean to suggest that ALL Christians feel this way, but there was a very visible and very vocal campaign by people generally recognized as being at the forefront of the Religious Right against Harry Potter.
The Christian establishment will beat anything anybody down unless the majority stands in their way. That's the purpose of organized religion.
became the norm! LOL
"A Wrinkle in Time" by Madeleine L'Engle (it's the first book in a trilogy, with the other books being "A Wind In the Door" and "A Swiftly Tilting Planet").
Because L'Engle referred to a set of characters as 'witches,' she similarly drew ire from the overly religious types - to the point that L'Engle's books were banned in some schools.
Of course, the irony is that L'Engle, like C.S. Lewis, has written a number of books about faith and Christianity.
We're moving into more adult literature now.
She is reading The Lovely Bones and has Howard's End on her to do list this week.
She also enjoyed The Sisters Grimm series--finished all seven books in about two and 1/2 weeks.
Alice in Underpants?
and im still waiting for the movie
I must admit, the fact that the HP story resonates with Christians is to me a damning one.
I loathe this obsession with prophecies and chosen individuals. It contains no truth about the world, poetic or otherwise, and I would be disinclined to rot my child's brain by encouraging her to read these kinds of stories.
The fact that it's popular, as with many things, means only that we have a weakness for it, not that it is good.
"The problem with prophecy is that you cannot tell if they are true until the events are upon you. And then, it is often too late."
-- Ambassador Delenn from Babylon 5
:)
...with another. Ever read this?
this?
Thanks very much for the link and filling my ignorance. :)
I should clarify that it's not that there's an overlap that bothers me, but the fact that HP is Christ figure. (It's amazing that it took the Christian fundamentalist establishment this long to figure this out.)
For the same reasons I can't stomach Narnia, The Matrix, ....
Perhaps I'm missing your point, and you are saying that these elements of mythology are inescapable and pervasive, and I shouldn't pick out prophecy for special treatment.. hmm...
What ails you???
The (very) thinly veiled Christian allegory? :)
Although I realise that Lewis did not intend for that to be so significant.
Also, the inane reinforcement of gender stereotypes...
...or On The Waterfront? A Tale Of Two Cities? Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan?
Or in the pre-Christian era, how about Prometheus and Tantalus? Enkidu, who was judged and killed for slaying the Bull of Heaven? They sacrificed for the good of mankind, no?
And, yeah, that's what I was saying. Of course, all myth is part of religion, props up a power structure, but at the same time myth teaches us the lessons about the traits we admire, that we need to survive together as a whole.
need a little oil. They were excellently written, and speak to the best in people.
Actually, I've read books 1-4, and from my small corner of literary experience, quality of writing was /not/ the most compelling.
Ironically, I was bored some of the time and skipped to the end to read the endings first, to see if I want to bother continuing. And got an absolute smackdown from my girlfriend: "How could you do that?!". "Well," I responded, "if it's well written, it won't matter that I know the end of the plot line, will it?"
Unfortunately, it's not that well written.
... looking belatedly beneath the surface that many have been trying to tell the fundamentalists for six Harry Potter movies and seven books is hardly surprising. This is not a terribly bright bunch, and they "think" in lockstep with whatever their leaders dictate, instead of critically thinking for themselves. The references to Christianity and the forces of good and evil are so obvious to anyone who has taken a literature or religious studies course that it's not even funny. But better 10 years late to the Harry Potter table than never, fundies!
that one never thinks for oneself? Thus, one has no personal responsibility for anything. There seems to be various reasons for going this route, laziness, fear, stupidity, but it leads to the same place. Blind obedience. Oh, so easily manipulated.
I have come to believe that it is so much harder to live life by accepting the consequences of one's actions, having to live within the confines of the choices one makes. Living in the gray space between black and white... where the fundies call moral relativism is not easy, having to give thought to what is fair and equitable.
It is so easy to live one's life when one always has the rule-book running through one's head of black and white, yes and no, right and wrong... no thinking or feeling involved --- until a situation comes along that changes your view on the subject. It may be an easier way to live, but it appears to be a prison of one's own making.
But whatever you call it, it certainly can't be considered freedom.
... torture, as so many conservative/evangelicals do, are in no position to preach to me about the evils of any choice I may make.
... or pitches this stupid King David analogy to excuse one's marital infidelity as the basis of some larger life lesson for the kids, is in no position to call spades.
that the Christians assimilated into their "belief" system over the centuries. I think for them then as now it came down to a matter of incorporate these things into the cult or let the cult wither. Eventually they'll even accept Spongebob Squarepants and Builder Bob into their cult.
But I think they're going to face a short-term blowback from calling Harry Potter "Christ like". Claiming him as a Jesus figure probably isn't the way to go to win over the HP fans to their cult.
they still do. At the church's "Harvest Festival" every Halloween night, we were not allowed to dress scary or anything that could be construed as occultic by our clergy, so no witches, vampires, definitely no devils, etc.
But some evangelical churches are more relaxed or have less control over what people read, so I have at least one evangelical friend who read the Harry Potter series with no issues.
I do find myself curious about what born-agains think of Twilight. It's a very watered down, abstinence-preaching take on vampires, but I have a feeling many will still reject it because it's still about vampires, and it was written by a Mormon. I'm sure there's people terrified that LDS theology will plant itself into their kids' minds...
A local Baptist church had its bus in my neighborhood, and all the high school aged kids were going door to door handing out fliers for their "Harvest Festival" party coming up. They caught me in my garage (in a bad mood unfortunately for them). I looked at the flier and asked them, "Why do you call it a Harvest Festival and not Halloween?" They misheard me and thinking I was praising them for it, said, "That's right, sir! We would NEVER call it Halloween!"
I gave them my smile reserved when suffering fools and said, "No, I'm asking WHY you don't JUST call it Halloween. Looking at your flier, you're going to have costume contests, treats, bobbing for apples, a hayride, games, and even a bonfire. These is no difference between what you're doing and what would go on at a normal Halloween party, but your pastor is convinced and has convinced you that removing the name of the same activities everyone else will be doing somehow makes you better than everyone else, and all it means is the night before All Hallows Day."
They went away a little unhappy.
learn for themselves eventually.
..than Potter..
Someone already mentioned Gaiman so I'll rec something else.
Little Fuzzy by H.Beam Piper
The Larklight novels by Phillip Reeve
His Dark Materials trilogy by Phillip Pullman
Any of these would be an improvement over the overrated Potter books..
Really is brilliant. Too bad they did such a poor job of the movie adaption of book one, it could have been a series worth looking forward to.
I totally enjoyed that series and it angers me how some people react to it. I enjoy the Harry Potter books as well, and I am very picky about the books I read. I mostly read history books (I love Issac's Sorm), fiction books have to be really good for me to even begin reading them (and I need a bit of an interest in the subject).
that answered my question of him about why he thought Liberals were so bad. His response was that Liberals were run by emotion and that was a bad thing to base policy on...
When I think of conservatives, I am amazed that time and time again, conservatives are the ones that have knee jerk reactions to things like fictional books such as the Harry Potter series or equal rights for women or civil rights or affirmative action or universal health care or any number of other policies that will help people achieve true equality.
These knee jerk reactions always seem to stem from fear or anger (two very powerful emotions). And I thought how ironic a comment the conservative made actually was.
... react out of fear and/or anger, but that we fear - and get angry about - different things than conservatives.
More telling, of course, is that evangelicals seem to have this 'I have to worship Jesus or get punished' mentality, when throughout the Bible, any time an angel (or, later, Christ himself) appears, they always exhort the listener to 'fear not.'
...Liberals don't go BSC over fictional characters.
You are correct. I hadn't thought of that point that angels are always trying to comfort the fearful by saying "fear not" to the uneducated shepherds of the sheep in the field.
Could angels therefore be a personification of Knowledge?
I'm not a Bible scholar (and most evangelicals would file me in the 'not a true Christian' department) ...
... but consider that after Adam & Eve tasted the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, one of the first responses Adam exhibited was fear/shame.
You could also find a parallel in the story of Elijah seeking the Voice of God. He fails to find it in the wind and the thunder and the storm ... but in the storm's wake, in a moment of stillness and quiet, he hears a soft whisper - and knows this is the Voice of God. Fear, if anything, fills our heads with noise and static, so we wouldn't necessarily hear God if he were standing right beside us.
This, of course, makes one wonder about the Zen principle of no-mind. As explained in The Last Samurai, one of the samurai tells Tom Cruise's character, "Too many mind! Mind your sword, mind the people watching, mind your opponent ... too many mind."
that proposed that the apple represented speech. Interesting to contemplate.
the apple represented self-awareness, which is something supposedly only humans possess.
Based off of an old legend from ancient Sumeria. After eating from this tree (it's not mentioned to be an apple), Adam and Eve came to know death, I always figured it was an allegory for growing up and becoming an adult, leaving behind the innocence of childhood to become an adult.
The serpent was not Satan originally, that came later with Christian teachings trying to tie everything togeather neatly.
You ever read Ishmael?
never heard of it, an interesting train of thought however.
It's not the plot that matters, but the ideas within...There are two more books in the series, The Story of B and My Ishmael.
If you like books that make you think, these are books you'll want to read.
on logic? That thought made me laugh out loud.
We libs, we're just too emotional. ;)
It's easy to get a conservative to show his or her emotions: Tell them you're raising their taxes.
Limbaugh has been telling his listeners that load of crap for years, that liberals are all emotion based and conservatives rely on common sense. It was listening to fat boy and how he reacted to things that I realized that he was projecting his habits onto others, it was this exact argument that I learned about projection and that Limbaugh was a master of it.
The phrase, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" immediately springs to mind. :)
Daniel Radcliff is an Atheist, fundies are reading Harry Potter. Guess we won the "cultural war" without even lifting a finger to fight one.
Then how would you feel to know that Bil Keane's, "Family Circus," once went through the same thing?
Back when it first came out, the evangelists of the day didn't like the cartoons when one of the little kids would say something amusing about a Biblical subject (often misunderstanding a verse or changing one word a pastor might have said to another similar sounding one).
So if Bil Keane's vanilla-white little cartoon couldn't initially get their stamp of approval what chance did Harry have?
[In the final book of the series, Harry reads two verses from the New Testament: The first (from I Corinthians 15) on his parents' tombstone that says, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death"; a second (from Matthew 6) on another tombstone that reads, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."]
Aside from [Jesus Camp] and all these new testaments to the contrary, I see an interesting parallel with regard to the good book(s). "Jesus Camp" at approximately the (1:40) mark, talk of HP.
[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac ]
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death". Considering [fiction] and reality "Life imitating art? I'll point to "Star Trek" at (0:01-0:08) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY9NkYGUEyE and the "Motorola MicroTAC"> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_MicroTAC
Science and technology, has helped shed the light, from communications to corneas and smoke signals to smokescreens. Just when, will death be destroyed and by whom? As far as "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also", interesting remark, if you consider...
...According to biblical anatomy, where does thinking happen? [In the heart] Although the bi-ble rates an 'F.' The heart is an organ that pumps blood--it does not process thoughts, although the biblical writers erroneously thought it did. The word "brain" appears nowhere in the bible. See, (Genesis 6:5),(Proverbs 23:7),(Luke 9:47),(Hebrews 4:12) and See also Deuteronomy 15:9, Judges 5:15, I Chronicles 29:18, Esther 6:6, Job 17:11, Psalm 10:6, Psalm 33:11, Jeremiah 23:20, Isaiah 10:7, Daniel 2:30, Acts 8:22.
The word "heart" in the bible was not used in the modern sense of "emotion" because it is depicted as having thoughts, intentions, and imaginations. The emotions were usually considered to be in the kidneys...
--In biblical times, the kidneys ("reins") were the seat of the emotions. "Reins" was used roughly then as "heart" is sometimes used today: See;(Psalm 73:21),(Proverbs 23:16-17),(Jeremiah 17:10) and (Revelation 2:23).
So in ending, when it is stated, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also"...Did they really mean [Brain]?
http://www.zchannelradio.com/crooksandliars.jpg
Just cleanin-up ;)
I despaired that my daughter would ever show the slightest interest in reading.
We got into the habit of my reading her a chapter every night before bedtime and, because of my irregular work schedules, I sometimes couldn't be home for this ritual.
Very quickly she figured out that if she could read herself, she didn't need me for the next exciting episode. Voila! She became, and remains, a voracious and often very critical reader.
A lot of the criticism of JK Rowling's work smacks of little more than "I was hip before you were."
..it's a question of follow the leader..and unfortunately the success (if you want to call it that) of the Potter books have led to similar books that are clogging the shelves..
while they're reading Potter they're neglecting good books like I, Robot or Ender's Game...
...a firm grounding in Asimov.
the Lucky Starr series, right?
about Heinlein some of his work may not be fit for kids of all ages but some was written with the juvenile in mind, or Edgar R Burroughs works. Another good one is Watership Down.
My interest in ancient Egyptology was sparked by those really bad sequels to Boris Karloff's The Mummy.
I didn't even see the original for the first time until I was in my 20's.
to read now. I just went in to the other room, and one of the teasers for his show was whether witchcraft is being acceptable in the mainstream now because of the Harry Potter books.
Poor Faux News, so out of the loop...
A couple years ago I was chatting with an acquaintance of mine who is also a Wiccan priestess. The number of self-identified wiccans has increased greatly in the past decade or so, and I asked for her opinion on why this happened. I figured it was because people are becoming less afraid to be openly pagan, or because so many are getting completely turned off by the major established religions. She said it was a little of both of those, but was even more attributable to the Harry Potter books. People of all ages were reading these books, knowing full well they're fictional and that the witchcraft portrayed in them doesn't exist, but simply became curious about what real Wicca is like. And as people learned more about it, some decided it was a better spiritual path to follow than the one they were currently on. I couldn't help laughing, because it's what the talibangelicals feared would happen, but not for the reason they expected. They just can't understand that their flock is turning away from them because of their hatred, intolerance, and bigotry, and moving toward religious paths that are the exact opposite.
Except I was told about the evils of the "Star Wars" movies (the originals!).
I figured that any religious institution that was against mindless entertainment that doesn't exploit anyone or anything wasn't really worth my time.
I guess it would be pointless to tell these people that the entire series was always about that and not how to conjure demons to do your bidding.
I wonder if my brother (not a wingnut but is very religious) will alow his sons to read the books now, I doubt it although it might pull them away from their Star Wars obssesion.
Nothing new here.
Christianity's first approach when confronted with something different is to destroy it.
When it can't destroy it, it tries to assimilate it, finding Christian elements in it and thereby using it to validate Christianity. Watch over the next few years as fundies begin marching to this new drumbeat.
This is what they've always done. Do you think Christianity invented the Christmas or Easter holidays?
...What Christmas tradition is expressly forbidden in the bible?
[Christmas trees]--Many other Christmas traditions have their roots in pagan practices, such as the holly wreath, a fertility symbol. Even the date of Christmas, near the winter solstice, is linked to sun worship. Modern Christians have stolen Christmas from the pagans.
"Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. . . . They are altogether brutish and foolish." (Jeremiah 10:2-8)
The Christmas date is largely the Roman Saturnalia, as well as the Mithraic Deus Natalis Solis Invictus.
But it's world-wide with solar cults, and any culture aware of the equinoxes and solstices.
You're a bright-spot ♥
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that the fundies are so worked up by a piece of fiction. I mean, they already live their lives by a horribly written piece of fiction, any other well written fiction would be an obvious threat.
I'm not kidding here. The leaders of crazydom, like Pope Benedict, know their audience. These are people who believe ANYTHING you tell them. For instance, the Catholic church just got rid of purgatory recently. Now, all good Catholics believe it doesn't exist. The structure of the "supposed" universe was changed one day because some guy in a pointy had said so. That's really scary.
The leaders of any successful religion know they have to keep a tight rein and a short leash on their flock, or they will wander away.
Good children books tend to have values in them
The values that fundies see in Harry Potter they claim as their own
Erroneously.
the Christians discover the Christ parallelisms in the Arthurian legends... their heads would simply explode.
They do know that the Bible is comprised of some fictionalized accounts of history, right? However, it doesn't diminish the lessons that can be learned as well from the Bible.
Actually the Arthurian legends as we know them are of French derivation, and it's probably little coincidence that they appeared at the time Church forces were wiping out the Albigensian heresy in the South of France in the 11th century.
So the Arthurian legends became a storeroom for Gnostic teachings, grafted onto a legendary Welsh figure of dubious history, and possibly mythological origin.
Even the Irish Tuatha de Danaan had a god in it, whose exploits weren't detailed, named Artur.
although I was aware of that. I was speaking merely on the life of Arthur and how the events as portrayed in Le Morte de Arthur parallel to the life of Christ was more by design than by default.
(I wrote a whole paper on it in high school, many, many moons ago. It was my own spiritual awakening. It showed me that if someone can manipulate mythologies or legends to a point to push an agenda, why stop with just Arthur. It was the start of my own downward spiral of questioning authority and not taking anything for its surface value. It's probably the reason I ended up in journalism too.)
But the Church has an answer for that too: the Anti-Christ figure.
Imagine what the average Christian would do once they learn the Church (Catholic or Protestant) has manipulated the scripture to make the masses believe that there is a singular antichrist. Whereas in reality the interpretation (taken into context) paints a completely different picture.
But that simply goes along with the rest of Revelations:
Revelation 22:18-19 (King James Version)
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
It probably initially meant to that particular book, since no one yet knew there was going to be a super compedium of them, and they all probably had similar lines at one time.
Thats great the young lady ended up loving books. My love for books don't really kick in until my senior year in high school. There were 3 girls in a class full of boys. We were out numbered in our english class. We had an assignment we all had to read the book The Con Tikki by Thor Heyerdahl. I would say it was more for the guys than the gals in the class. But I tell you it was a great adventure story and I couldn't wait to finish it. It got me to love reading. I would suggestion if you want to read a good adventure on the high seas than this is the book for you.
I'm surprised you weren't assigned Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
As is typical with Christian extremists such as Dobson, they can still can only accept something when they've decided that it's about their values. This Wiccan hates to break it to them, but the concepts of love, fairness, living a wholesome life, helping your family and friends in need, sacrificing for the greater good, mercy towards your enemies, and so on are very much Wiccan values, not to mention just about every other religion's in the world. They haven't realized anything, they've just redefined their view of the HP books/films and decided they're about Christianity, so now it's "okay" for kids to read them. They'll never come around until they are truly willing to understand and accept that non-Christian religions, as well as atheism and secular humanism, teach very important life lessons too. Christianity doesn't have a lock on "values"; never did, never will.
I prefer Wiccae
It's a Latinization of an Anglo-Saxon word, but I find it odd that the male spelling Wicca refers to the group.
The word Wiccan is basically the plural form of a plural form.
Additionally, a lot of Craft folk (to use a Freemason term), were looking rather askance at Harry Potter when it came out, but it has proven to be muuuuch better than The Craft or Charmed. I absolutely loathed the book and the movie The Witches of Eastwick (although the book started well.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S0zNFzK_ns
Here is the text of Jeremiah 10:3-5, Contemporary English Version (the only Bible I have handy):
(3) Their religion is worthless! They chop down a tree, carve the wood into an idol, (4) cover it with silver and gold, and then nail it down so it won't fall over. (5) An idol is no better than a scarecrow. It can't speak, and it has to be carried, because it can't walk. Why worship an idol that can't help or harm you?
The previous poster misrepresented this text. Christmas trees are not "expressly forbidden" in the Bible.
If you are going to quote the Bible, do so accurately.
He stated it correctly, it's called an asherim, named for the Semitic goddess Asherah. But there were variations in the Cybele/Attis cult, present in Israel as well as ancient Egypt.
The asherim could be either a tree, a pole or a pole with garlands on it.
Although the main source of the Christmas tree as we know it came from Prince Albert, who brought it from Germany, where it was a decendent of Yggdrasil.
The asherah could also be a grove:
Then the men of the city said unto Joash, Bring out thy son, that he may die: because he hath cast down the altar of Baal, and because he hath cut down the grove that was by it.
Judges 6:30 (KJV).
And although I can't find it at present, YHVH also forbade the presence of Asherahs near his alter.
"(the only Bible I have handy)" ♥
New Life Bible Chapel:
→ → →[ http://www.nlbchapel.org/Christmass.htm ]
bygones?
How convenient for the Christian Taliban to wrap their tentacles around Potter at this time. Those fundies are always on the cutting edge of.... well, nothing.
"As 'Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince' opens, we are once again reminded of the characteristics that make him something of a Christ figure," Connie Neal writes for the evangelical Christianity Today.
Umm, I'm pretty sure J.K. Rowling gave Harry a Mother and a Father. Okay, they were both wizards but neither was divine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAA&fe...
My experiences with my child and her love of Harry Potter books are remarkably similar to those you, Nicole Belle, had with your daughter. Our respective spouses must be very proud.
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