Hannity and Anti-Muslim Zealot Gabriel Fearmonger Over Muslim Brotherhood Takeover
I meant to get this post up on Sunday, but I went down a rabbit hole of research of the guest of this Hannity episode, Brigitte Gabriel and her organization, American Congress for Truth. She and her organization truly frightened me in its scope of irrational hatred of Islam. What can you say about a woman so self-loathing that even as a teen she refused to speak Arabic in her native Lebanon and still refers to herself as a "Phoenician" instead of acknowledging her Arab blood? A "terrorism expert" who has been quoted as saying “every practicing Muslim is a radical Muslim.” So obviously, who better to comment on the ongoing upheaval in Egypt on Fox News than a woman who has created a cottage industry sowing the seeds of hatred against the one billion Muslims in the world?
There's no question that the official Fox News memo came down from on Ailes demanding that the hosts spend as much time as possible focusing the "scary terrists" taking over Egypt and turning everything into an Islamicist threat. Democracy? Nah...this is the Muslim Brotherhood taking over the entire country.
HANNITY: Brigitte, you know as I'm watching this here, it seems to me that the Muslim Brotherhood has pretty much taken this over. Seems to me that radical groups now see this as an opportunity and they're weighing in and offering their support. You know, I was thinking about this earlier today. I can't think of any democratic revolution that's taken hold in Arab countries. The only real democracy I can think of is in Iraq now.
GABRIEL: That's right. And the radicals are smelling blood basically. This is their opportunity. They have seen what Hamas did in Gaza and by the way, Hamas was a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas was democratically elected for the Palestinian people, by the Palestinian people. Look at Hezbollah in Lebanon. They practically elected themselves into the government and now took over the government. The Egyptians are smelling the same thing. This is their opportunity.
Uh yeah. I'm going to pass on commenting about Hannity's ridiculous notion that Iraq is the only real democracy in the Middle East because that's just part and parcel of the disinformation that Fox is known for and frankly, I'm not sure that Hannity would know a functioning democracy if it smacked him upside the head. But the fear-mongering over the Muslim Brotherhood? Would you be surprised to hear that there's not one "iota of reality" to it? In the words of El Baradei:
This is a myth that was sold by the Mabarak regime, that it’s either us — the ruthless dictators — or a Muslim al-Qaeda type. The Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with the Iranian movement, has nothing to do with extremism as we have seen it in Afghanistan and other places. The Muslim Brotherhood is a religiously conservative group. They are a minority in Egypt. They are not a majority of the Egyptian people, but they have a lot of credibility because of liberal parties have been a struggle for thirty years. They are in favor of a secular state. they are of –they are in favor of an institution that have bread lines, they are in favor that every Egyptian have the same rights, that the state is in no way a state based on religion. And I have been reaching out to them. We need to include them. They are as much a part of society as the markets that started here. I think this is a myth that has been perpetuated and sold by the regime and has no iota of reality.
But hey, let's not let little things like facts and tolerance get in the way of a good Muslim fear-monger session.
Partial transcripts below the fold
HANNITY: Brigitte, you know as I'm watching this here, it seems to me that the Muslim Brotherhood has pretty much taken this over. Seems to me that radical groups now see this as an opportunity and they're weighing in and offering their support. You know, I was thinking about this earlier today. I can't think of any democratic revolution that's taken hold in Arab countries. The only real democracy I can think of is in Iraq now.
GABRIEL: That's right. And the radicals are smelling blood basically. This is their opportunity. They have seen what Hamas did in Gaza and by the way, Hamas was a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas was democratically elected for the Palestinian people, by the Palestinian people. Look at Hezbollah in Lebanon. They practically elected themselves into the government and now took over the government. The Egyptians are smelling the same thing. This is their opportunity.
Ayatollah Khatami in Iran in his private service said we are seeing the rise of a new Islamic era in the Middle East. So they feel empowered. They feel this is their opportunity. And what's happened in Tunisia a couple of weeks ago is completely different than what's happening in Egypt right now. The majority of Tunisians are moderate, they are educated, they are literate people. In Egypt we are looking at a majority population that is illiterate, that is looking for something that is thriving through Islamic justice, not just democracy, but democracy according to the Islamic way of life and that's what's very dangerous.
HANNITY: But their long term goal has always been to establish an Islamic Caliphate, using Sharia and Islamic law. That's what they've wanted from the beginning. They've always been committed to jihad.
GABRIEL: Exactly.
HANNITY: They were formed in Egypt in 1928. They took responsibility in part for assassinating former Egyptian President Anwar Sadat. Their original leaders and their writings influenced Ayman al-Zawahiri and Osama bin Laden and it was, even though it was banned by the Mubarak government, members ran for parliament and in 2005 they got 20% of the seats then. So obviously there is a very strong, there's a big stronghold of Islamic extremists that may very well take over Egypt.
GABRIEL: A very strong hold. Listen, Ayman al-Zawahiri was a leader in the Muslim Brotherhood, imprisoned by the Egyptian government and this is exactly why Mubarak today cut off the Internet. He knows that Ayman al-Zawahiri will do appeals in Arabic so he's based in Egypt. He will be a welcomed hero back into his own country. Now he is living in exile.
We are going to see another replay of Iran happening in Egypt like what we saw with Ayatollah Khatami in '79.
HANNITY: Yeah.
GABRIEL: We're going to what people like Ayman al-Zawahiri and others in Egypt.
HANNITY: How much is this about Israel Brigitte?
GABRIEL: Uh... this is not really much about Israel. They despise Israel. Now remember, Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel as well as Jordan and both countries right now are experiencing demonstrations in the streets.
HANNITY: Yeah.
GABRIEL: They despise the Jews and that's very dangerous for Israel right now. Israel is surrounded with volcanoes about to explode.
OK... it's official... gotta go get a new outrage meter, as the needle's broken on this one.
Is there no depth to which these idiots will not sink?!
(silly rhetorical question, I know)
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
Adolf Hitler and friends created the whole Aryan myth, complete with BS history, accused Poles and Czechs of harassing innocent Germans, complete with "documented" atrocities, taught little kids that Jews smelled, etc.
Yeah, they can go lower.
I don't believe in God. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
-Andrew Carnegie
The Egyptians, listening to Hannity's rant about how ungrateful Kuwait is and how we should invade them decided they better clean house before Hannity gets all upset and threatens them.
... how these Righties define 'democracy'. Apparently, it's not democracy when the people elect Hezbollah or Hamas into leading their countries, but it is democracy when an occupying military force must remain in your country specifically to prevent the populace from overthrowing that 'democratically-elected' leadership...?
Also, how do the methods of Hamas, Hezbollah, or the Muslim Brotherhood... methods these Righties consider antithetical to democracy... actually differ from the Right-wing money machine which drives things here in the US...?
Disgusting.
The politics from their C-Street brethren are more world-dominionist than the Muslim Brotherhood could ever think of being...
Oh, but they tend to forget that the name for God in Arabic bibles is Allah... hell, they don't even seem to realize that not all Arabs are Muslim, let alone any nuances in Islamic doctrine across the 1.5 billion people that identify with that faith.
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
//how these Righties define 'democracy'. Apparently, it's not democracy when the people elect Hezbollah or Hamas into leading their countries//
One vote, one voter, once, is NOT democracy. That's what many of these Islamicists e.g. Hamas want.
//but it is democracy when an occupying military force must remain in your country specifically to prevent the populace from overthrowing that 'democratically-elected' leadership...?//
Sounds like a straw man to me. I don't know of any right-winger who'd claim that's a democracy. They may tolerate such governments too much, but they won't call them democracies.
prove it
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Seems rather like the woman who stirred up anti-Saddam sentiments back at the start of Gulf War, Senior, with her stories of Iraqi soldiers killing Kuwaiti babies... until it was revealed that she was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador, was telling falsehoods, and had, shall we say, vested interests in ginning up the narrative.
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
did the shelling?
I'm pretty sure this "Muslim Brotherhood" is a creation of British and possibly Israeli intelligence. I can't verify that right now, but its worth considering amongst the other things.
The Power of Nightmares!!
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
Was The Israeli Intelligence around in 1928?
probably you should not go around implying it.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
were Baal worshippers. Chucking babies into fiery furnaces, and all. Is this an improvement on modern day Muslim extremists? I wouldn't ascribe these beliefs to Ms Gabriel, but if she slings unsupported accusations around, she opens herself to similar slurs.
Phoenicians lived in what is now Lebanon. Carthage was a Phoenician colony in present day Tunisia/Libya; had two wars against early Rome, and Hannibal crossed the Alps with elephants in a gutsy but ill-fated move.
I am not going anywhere near comparing Hannibal and the GOP. As I rather admire Hannibal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjGpcEA-FyE
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
THAT'S the Hannibal I associate with the GOP. Actually, I'd like to have them all locked a room with him.
Nah... to Hannibal Lecter, there is no sin more grievous than rudeness... the Repubs have turned rudeness into an art form... but then again, I agree with your 2nd statement... they would be tortured, THEN eaten, based upon their rudeness...
No, trolls, this is not a call for violence... just a bit of speculating...
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
... is like all the Iranians who say they're Persian.
As for Little Boy (Hannity), he and Fat Man (you know who) aren't about to waste a good crisis.
CaliforniaMike blogs at All Voices and at his own blogs, http://www.mikerappaport.net/onevoice and at http://oneminutewithmike.blogspot.com.
the Hiroshima and Nagasaki weapons?
Iranians are Persians. Iran=Aryan is the ancient name for these people who migrated, colonizing Europe and India during the Bronze age a while back. It has gotten to be a fad to go back to ancient names of places once colonial shackles are struck off. Persians have distinguished themselves from Arabs for over a millennium. Being hedonists, wine-drinkers and all.
because they happen to be Persian.
Whether it is Istanbul or Constantinople, it is no one's business but the Turks.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
... are the Palestinians Philistines?
CaliforniaMike blogs at All Voices and at his own blogs, http://www.mikerappaport.net/onevoice and at http://oneminutewithmike.blogspot.com.
as Iran in its history, so it makes sense to me at least that the Iranians would still prefer to be called Persians. Lebanon/Phoenicia is a whole other story.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
The Philistines are thought to be an enigmatic group known as the Sea People- maybe Mycenaean Greelks or Minoans from Crete (there are some who argue that the Philistines were native to the land, but the pottery shards that interrupt Cannaanite culture that was known to exist there is too much of a tell.
The Romans named the area Palestine for the Philistines- whom they never could have known- in order to scrub the area of any relationship to the Jews after the Diaspora(s). The pre-Islamic Arabs known as Nabateans began crossing the desert and moving into the area by the time of the late Roman Empire, and pretty much assumed the majority in the area after the Fourth Samaritan Revolt (555 AD), when most of the remaining Jews were killed or exiled by the Byzantines. Then came Islam in 634, and the cultural imperialism on the part of the Caliphate, which decided that, just coincidentally, that Mohamed rose to Heaven from the exact same spot that is considered the most holy place in Judaism- the Foundation Stone, the center of the the First and Second Temples- and built the Dome of the Rock, a mosque, above it.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLfbu7NzBWI
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Clean up in Tank 1. The Manatee just pooped himself.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
I understand the need to believe that these "uprisings" are organic and democratic, just as the tea baggers believe their "uprisings" were organic and democratic in origin. But why not try to see the world in the shades of gray it really is than through rose colored glasses? If we don't, then we are the same hypocrites as the right wingers are.
There is too much coincidence in the timing of the Tunisia uprising, the uprising in Yemen and the uprising in Egypt for someone organization not to have been involved. To think otherwise I believe is too simplistic.
Election 2012: Be Educated! Be Active! Vote!
www.PhoenixJustice.com
Most of the civilized, and uncilvilized, world hates a US government led by morons who believe the same things assholes like Hannity believe.
The chances are close to 100% any new Egyptian government would not be as pro-US as Mubarak is.
I personally like people who don't help my government attach a car battery to my balls.
So, yeah, you're probably right.
I don't believe in God. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
-Andrew Carnegie
finally FOAMS at the mouth on live teevee. I realize SNL did a sketch a couple of weeks back, but their "foam" was NOTHING like what comes out of Stupannity on an hourly and nightly basis.
Stupannity needs to go on Faux & Fiends to see if he can help them with their illiterate fearmongering.
I went to the store right when Stupannity's radio show started and it was HILARIOUSLY PATHETIC to listen to read off Drudge and then "reinterpret" the judge's decision on HCR. Stupannity has ZERO KNOWLEDGE of how to read an opinion from a court - this is the current MISINFORMATION he is foaming at this afternoon. He ought to be real foamy by tonight.
YIKES, these people are incredibly and DEFIANTLY IGNORANT.
I just had a vision of it happening with Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck both having their off-the-rails moment on the same stage --- as portrayed by Terrance and Philip...
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
constituting incitement through hate speech and through broadcast fraud. If you think so too and want to do something about it, you can, by complainging to the FCC:
http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm
This shit has to end. It's based on lies and it is intended to incite and manipulate instead of truthfully inform. I know it's been many years since the FCC gave any indication that it gives a damn about the people it is supposed to be serving, but if they start being inundated with complaints about this truly obscene material that the propagandists are relentlessly spewing, maybe the FCC can be shamed into doing the right thing for once and hold these propaganda entrises accountable for their crimes against the public.
She looks like she wants some hot lesbian sex with Margaret Hamilton.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Damn, dude... and me all out of brain bleach...
In the marketplace of ideas, too many people shop in the bargain basement.
-- Thunder BlueRose
Why, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU
http://saxman.bravepages.com
Al Jazeera in an interview with a person of apparent keen knowledge put The Muslim Brotherhood at about 20 per cent support, or slightly more.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Can't speak to the crazy lady, but FYI, not all Lebanese are Arab.
And Gabriel is not. She is a Christian.
However, Lebanese ARE Arabs.
So there are three things going on here. Nationality, Ethnicity, and Religion. Lebanese is a national identity. Arab is a racial identify. Christian is a religious identity. You cannot conflate them. Lebanon is a melting pot. It sits astride the collision of all three of those things. I don't know jack about the crazy lady. I merely take objection to the conflation of one identity with another. It's like saying all Egyptians are Muslim, or all Isrealis are Jewish - or Semitic. Look deeper.
The great thing about the Muslim Brotherhood is that it's got "Muslim" and "Brother" in the name. Now what Muslim brother would that make the teabaggers think about?
Paging Dr. Pavlov...
I'll bet Hannity couldn't even find Egypt on a map in less than 30 seconds.
He's a Fox "news" expert.
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
was that Shun said he was "thinking" LOL..as if
... his asshole with a funnel, let alone find Egypt on a map.
CaliforniaMike blogs at All Voices and at his own blogs, http://www.mikerappaport.net/onevoice and at http://oneminutewithmike.blogspot.com.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
please read, and hope that egypt does get a secular government. please also realize that most probably the class system will still be firmly in place.
from the wikipedia page
"Hassan al-Banna founded the Muslim Brotherhood in the city of Ismailia in March 1928 along with six workers of the Suez Canal Company. It began as a religious, political, and social movement with the credo, “Allah is our objective; the Quran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of Allah is the highest of our aspirations.”[28][29] Al-Banna called for the return to an original Islam and followed Islamic reformers like Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida. According to him, contemporary Islam had lost its social dominance, because most Muslims had been corrupted by Western influences. Sharia law based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah were seen as laws passed down by Allah that should be applied to all parts of life, including the organization of the government and the handling of everyday problems.[30]"
please note
"“Allah is our objective; the Quran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of Allah is the highest of our aspirations.”
i simply do not understand western secular people being in any way happy that a part of the world's population could come under the sway of an islamic government. would most people in america want a christian theocracy?
The Muslim Brotherhood gave up violence in the 70s. They are seeking a democratic, more secular solution in government. There are offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood who are radicalized and who do not think that MB is Islamic enough. It's a little like judging all Christians on the basis of the Westboro Baptist Church.
Two elections ago, the Egyptian people, even with all the restrictions placed upon them by Mubarek, elected 88 of the 400 seats in parliament to MB. The last election? Suddenly they got ZERO seats, having threatened Mubarek's control with their involvement in the government.
Marc Lynch is an excellent resource for more information.
She was spewing this nonsense on Hannity's radio show on Friday already, talking about the Muslim Brotherhood being the puppet masters of everything in Egypt up to that point, ignoring the fact that they had nothing to do with the protests, were originally against them, and only latched on to them when the numbers became overwhelming. Now they are making demands in the press as if they have something to do with anything, kind of like Reagan shouting "tear down this wall' then taking credit for it. Or a child saying "open sesame" and thinking he opened the elevator door. They are opportunists and Hannity is a fearmonger.
The back story that this is Islamist led and we need to support Mubarack was out there last week and Hannity got the word. I had no idea who this women was at the time but paranoid conspiracy was spewing forth unchecked, and Hannity would squeeze to keep it coming, scary rantings with no proof or connection to reality. Fox presents fear as news. It's just that simple.
Compared to the really dangerous people like John Hagee and Pat Robertson, two flagrant hypocrites that pretend to promote "spiritual" values. They actually promote nothing like the genuine article. They are manipulative money grubbers that fleece their flock whenever possible.
Now when is Fox news going to launch a 24/7 Mc Carthyite jihad against these criminals?
crickets
Just what I thought.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
self-hatred. Every time I hear her rant about Arabs, I think, "Lady, you're an Arab." It's quite alright for her to be proud of her Phoenician heritage, but she's probably the end result of centuries of mixing between the Phoenicians and Arabs, just like the Egyptians fighting for their freedom lay claim to both their ancient ancestors *and* the Arabs who came to Egypt.
Speaking of loony Middle Eastern Christians, did anyone else see on CNN the Egyptian-American televanglist, Michael Youssef? He reminded me a lot of my ex-pastor...
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
I'm gonna start saying I'm a Viking. They're way more recent than fucking Phoenicians. What an idiot. I'd like to see if her dad (or her mom's brothers' or dad's) haplogroup analysis is. She'll be disappointed to find out she is Lebanese. She and Michelle Malkin have GOT to start a club...
me-oww!
Frank or a Visigoth to mock Brigitte Gabriel since my family tree evidently does go back that far. :P
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
Just as valid as the Phoenicians.
Actually Druidery was the religion of the Q Celts
Little is known about the P Celts.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
of the distinction between P and Q Celts.
I just know that my family has been in Ireland for a long time. If you can get past some murkiness surrounding my great great grandparents (who may or may not have been married, or married to others), you can trace back my family distinctly for 12 generations.
One of my distant cousins has traced my dad's family back 25 generations and it's pretty amazing to see the family tree he created.
Yeah I saw the beginning of the interview and I thought it was in rather bad taste that his wardrobe (espcially his massive gold watch) was more wealth than all of those protestors in the streets combined wealth/life savings... he has the televangelist look down pat!
Of course he gets to go visit Egypt occasionally to spread the "gospel"...of what, I shudder to think!
1) Hundreds of languages are dying out every decade. Only a few villages in Lebanon still speak Aramaic - Most of the ancestors of the people of Lebanon spoke Aramaic, but ever since they were conquered by Arabs they've been losing their native language to the Muslim Arab cultural and religious hegemony. The attitude people take towards Gabriel pushing back against Arab would be the same sort of attitude ridiculing modern Welsh people for pushing back against use of the English language in Wales.
2) Islam is the only religion whose founding figures went around committing massacres, conquests, hegemonisation, forced conversions (of Zoroastrians & pagans), and making those of other religions 2nd-class citizens. Because of that, Muslim "radicals" dominate Islam even in the West (http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.php/pa...). All other religions can say to the extremists in their midst "How can that extremism be ok when our founding figures didn't do that." But moderate Muslims can't say that, b/c Islam's founding figures DID do those horrible things.
Muslims on the Offense Throughout History http://www.facebook.com/sgroup.php?gid=22133103984#!/topic.php?uid=22133103984&topic=16350
It's fairly clear you know nothing of the Bible or the history of Christianity to make this laughably false statement.
notice I specified "founding figures." Those are the people who most matter, in the end, for defining for all subsequent followers centuries later what the religion was originally meant to be about.
My statement is absolutely, 100% true when you realise I specified "founding figures."
But whatever gets you through the night.
The truth of the matter is that Christianity (and the OT) are fraught with some of the ugliest and most bloodthirsty stories ever told.
Focusing on a religion's founding figures isn't cherry-picking. It's an essential issue.
That makes ALL the difference in the world, not.
me-oww!
For some reason, the Mountain Meadows Massacre And Brigham Young come to mind.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
// the Mountain Meadows Massacre And Brigham Young//
1) That's Christianity. Brigham Young didn't found Christianity. Jesus & the early Apostles did.
2) Mormonism has a centralised authority (its President) who can with complete authority with his status as a prophet completely reject the meaning of such behavioral precedent. Modern Mormons have to follow him, and the modern Mormon President is peaceful like that. Islam, however, has no centralised authority. Guess to whom modern Muslims look to as authoritative authority on how to practice Islam? The earliest Muslims, b/c they actually knew Muhammad, were the only ones who spoke the 7th century Arabic of the Qur'aan as their native tongue, and were the only ones who knew exactly what the short vowels are in the Qur'aan. And guess what those earliest Muslims did? They massacred, conquered and forcefully converted people (e.g. pagans & Zoroastrians).
He founded the LDS, and he murdered over 100 people in cold blood.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Actually Joseph Smith founded Mormonism, and as he chose no clear successor when he and his brother were murdered in prison, the apostles voted for Brigham Young to be successor. But there were relatives of Smith who felt it should stay within the family, thus laying the basis for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In all there are about 4 or 5 Mormon splinters. Some are so mundane they were the churches that guys like Alice Cooper came from, some smaller and more extreme like the Texas ranch where teenaged girls were married off to middle-aged men, and polygamy encouraged.
The original Mormons renounced the latter practice to gain statehood for Utah.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
church. That is very interesting. I guess he's an evangelical now?
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
He's also a freeking republican.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Thank you very much. I'm always game for more info.
And knowing you and how you like to debate the dallas nooz on the topic of religions, I'll take that info as accurate.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Deuterotonomy?
"The death penalty is also prescribed for males who are guilty of disobeying their parents, profligacy, or drunkenness."
Or Perhaps Leviticus is more to your liking.
"The case law lesson of a blasphemer being stoned to death, and other applications of the death penalty (Leviticus 24:10–23), including anyone having "a familiar ghost or spirit", a child insulting its parents (Leviticus 20), and a special case penalty for prostitution "Leviticus 21)
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Most modern Jews, even "conservative" Jews believe that the Law has evolved and such things as that aren't supposed to be followed even more. And Christians have St Paul, who made it clear that Christians don't have to follow the OT.
These are majority interpretations of Judaism & Christianity. In contrast, I dare you to find even a significant minority of Muslims who'll ignore parts of the Qur'aan. You can't.
"Focusing on a religion's founding figures isn't cherry-picking. It's an essential issue."
Ummm, yeah. You can't have it both ways.
And I'm gonna take a wild guess that you know nothing about Turkey.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
//Ummm, yeah. You can't have it both ways.//
I'm sorry, how am I trying to have it both ways?
The behavior of the founding figures of a religion define it for all subsequent followers. And of all religions, Islam is the only one the founding figures of which went around committing massacres, conquests and forced conversions.
Prove that Mohamed actually went on his own crusades.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
//Prove that Mohamed actually went on his own crusades.//
Faizer, Rizwi S. (1996). “Muhammad and the Medinan Jews: A Comparison of the Texts of Ibn Ishaq’s Kitab Sirat Rasul Allah with al-Waqidi’s Kitab al-Maghazi.” International Journal of Middle East Studies, 28(4), pp. 463-489. Retrieved from JSTOR database.
“In his depiction of the actual destruction of the tribes, Ibn Ishaq uses a combination of mnemonic and Biblo-Qur’anic patterns: the community that rejects Muhammad is obliterated in so decisive a fashion that not only are the better-prepared Jews defeated by the smaller Muslim forces, but none of the Jewish tribes is heard of again. As for the actual means of Muhammad’s victories, the violence against the Jews is depicted as having escalated from forced submission to exile and execution” (469).
“Ibn Ishaq…thus maintains the traditions which associate Muhammad’s anger toward Ka’b with his having been provoked soon after the battle of Badr. According to both Ibn Ishaq and al-Waqidi, Ka’b ibn al-Ashraf had gone to Mecca after Badr and had incited the Quraysh to fight the Prophet. Ka’b had also composed verses mourning the death of the brave Meccan victims killed at Badr; on returning to Medina, he had then composed love poems of a nature insulting to some Muslim women. Ibn does not refer to any Qur’anic citations, but he does suggest that traditions did exist which linked the assassination of Ka’b to the exile of the Banu Nadir…there also existed traditions tying the assassination of Ka’b to the subsequent agreement between Muhammad and the Jews. It is this latter tradition that al-Waqidi makes use of in his Kitāb al-maghāzī” (479-480).
I see, so the Jewish can say that they modernized and don't follow Leviticus and Deuteronomy, yet they did kill. And Muslims haven't done the same? Ok, I see.
Some would call that a double standard you have there bud.
Oh, about who wrote it. No one could have transcribed that with a slant , could they?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
I LOVE this. Please show me anywhere that the Religious Right in this country adhere to the teachings of Christ.
Come on. I'll get the popcorn.
/"/The behavior of the founding figures of a religion define it for all subsequent followers."
I LOVE this. Please show me anywhere that the Religious Right in this country adhere to the teachings of Christ.//
Just b/c their behavior defines a religion doesn't mean that subsequent people are going to perfectly follow that example.
Even if Mohammed was a murderous ass, it doesn't mean that his followers perfectly follow that example.
By the way, the God of the Bible -- who I presume is the ULTIMATE founder of religions -- was pretty damn petty, cruel and murderous, taking out entire populations because He didn't think they were obsequious enough, demanding that fathers sacrifice children and wives.
By that example, ALL Abrahamic religions were founded on profound violence.
//ALL Abrahamic religions were founded on profound violence.//
Depends upon how far you're going to illogically stretch "founded." No Christians were ever violent for the first 300 years of Christianity. That's a tremendously great record. In my view, the "founders" of a religion consist of 1) the one individual who catalyzed it, e.g. Jesus/Muhammad, and 2) the individuals who personally knew that religious figure as his disciples. Nobody more.
of being an underground movement (seeing as the New Testament wasn't put into writing until that time) TOTALLY absolves Christianity for every drop of blood after.
Do you realize how insane that sounds?
Again, it's okay to admit that you're a bigot. It's far less exhausting to do than these mental gymnastics you have to employ to make yourself feel good about the peaceful aspect of Christianity.
I knew I had read something a long time ago on early Christian violence.
Turns out, you're WRONG
Irenaeus, the Bishop of Lyons, recorded the violent battles between Christians of various cities, the betrayal and assassinations of religious leaders, and the confusion over basic doctrines of Christianity.
Hmmm.....what were you saying about early Christian peace?
//Irenaeus, the Bishop of Lyons, recorded the violent battles between Christians of various cities,//
1) It's hard to find. I guess Christians don't have a very high view of any early violence; unlike Muslims, who trumpet how their religion is proving true b/c of its early military successes. And that's assuming this conclusion about St. Irenaeus' observations is correct.
2) My own, earlier, definition of "founding figure" still controls: Only those people who personally knew the religious figure who founded the religion count. St. Irenaeus lived in the late second century; he didn't know Jesus, and neither did any of the people he was writing about who were committing violence.
You know that, right? Jesus was a Jewish rabbi.
Very few of those who actually founded Christianity were anywhere around Jesus during his lifetime. Those who were around them remained Jews. I don't believe Paul ever met Jesus, and yet most of what we know as Christianity today is absolutely Paulist in its origin.
Your definition is ridiculous and absolutely useless in terms of having an intellectually honest discussion.
//Those who were around them remained Jews//
Really? The Twelve remained Jews?
They were disciples of Christ, but they were considered a Jewish sect until at least the mid first century..and Andrew, James, Phillip, Nathanael (and of course, Judas Iscariot) were martyred/crucified before the spread of Christianity. Not exactly a non-violent history.
Christianity had Peter, Paul (who never met Jesus) and Matthew to really spread the word. But the New Testament was not formally started until 50 AD and the books of Mark and Luke were not of the original twelve. You also cannot ignore that the Jewish-Christian Gospels, also known as the Gospels of the Hebrews include the stories of the original twelve.
Face it, you're ignorant of the history of religion and use that ignorance to be bigoted against another faith.
You are wrong You are a joke
Founded the muslim religion. You would be wrong on that.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
All you have is one big donut. Bircher? Teabagger?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
"The behavior of the founding figures of a religion define it for all subsequent followers."
Doesn't it?
No wonder they bomb planned parenthood clinics.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Actually that how you find schisms between Sunni, Shia, Sufis, Wahhabi, Bahai etc.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
//Actually that how you find schisms between Sunni, Shia, Sufis, Wahhabi, Bahai etc//
The Baha'i are a new religion.
None of the rest will every even approximate saying that they'll ignore parts of the Qur'aan like modern Jews, and most Christians throughout history, explicitly say that they ignore vast parts of the OT.
The christians learned after they slaughtered tens of thousands of muslims that maybe, just maybe, that wasn't such a good idea. Next up, the spanish inquisitions.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Because Christianity/Islam/Judaism all are Abrahamic faiths, you can hardly make the distinction that the *founding* members are the only one who counts. Do you consider Paul/Saul to be a founding member? How'd he act towards others?
What counts is what has been done in the name of your particular faith and in that, none have clean hands.
//Do you consider Paul/Saul to be a founding member? How'd he act towards others?//
With peace. Duh?
// you can hardly make the distinction that the *founding* members are the only one who counts//
They count by far the most, and that's in the end what really counts. Who cares about what some district judge in FL has to say about Obamacare? In the end, if SCOTUS is going to weigh in on the issue, then only SCOTUS matters. A federal district judge has some authority, but in the end if SCOTUS is going to weigh in on s.t. then it's the only game in town.
I'd suggest you do some more research.
His conversion included changing his name to Paul to be rid of the persona in which he persecuted others.
Your SCOTUS/District judge analogy has me puzzled though in how it applies here.
//His conversion included changing his name to Paul to be rid of the persona in which he persecuted others.//
Um, but he wasn't a Christian when he was violent. His conversion to Christianity in fact made him peaceful. His prior violence is irrelevant to Christians.
//Your SCOTUS/District judge analogy has me puzzled though in how it applies here.//
I'm pointing out how supremely important the behavioral acts of a religion's founding figures are. There are authorities in modern Islam, but their authority viz a viz the earliest Muslims is like that of a district judge viz a viz SCOTUS.
We provide examples that pierce through your rather narrow focus and you change the goalposts.
Just admit that you are a bigot and are unable to have a rational discussion about this.
//We provide examples that pierce through your rather narrow focus and you change the goalposts.//
I didn't "change" the goalposts. From the beginning I've specified that it's the behavior of a religion's founding figures that matters the most. That's what I've consistently asserted throughout.
Brigham Young, Saul/Paul, Protestants, etc.
It is a HUMAN tendency, not specifically a Muslim one, no matter how badly you want to make it that.
Just admit you're a bigot.
Bring up the Aztecs.
I heard that they had great municipal gatherings. They even had guests up on the aztec temples. Just for the view.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Perhaps with a soupçon of Spanish Inquisition? I mean the Spanish Inquisition only destroyed several hundreds years of peace between Muslims, Jews and Catholics, under Moorish rule. Oh yeah, maybe a bit of the 2nd class citizen for the Jews and Catholics, but it didn't involve, torture, drawing and quartering, pressing, drowning or burning. Don't forget the Cathars.
Really, how stupid is it to sign up on a discussion forum just to post a load of bullshit that's easily discounted? Your life must be very boring. Got some Muslim boogey men under the bed, little boy? Fuck, if you want to hang out with the adults, get yourself out of the short pants, buster. No kids allowed.
BTW, Phoenicia, her alleged homeland has been non-extant for about 2000 years. Claiming some Welsh/English similarity is a risible false analogy, since those are both existing countries.
me-oww!
//several hundreds years of peace//
So, you think that non-Muslims living at best as second-class citizens is "peace?" Was it peace during the Segregation of pre-1960s America? Because African Americans were in a similar situation then that non-Muslims were in in Islamic Spain. You've got a really twisted idea of what "peace" means when you think that institutionalised violence is "peaceful."
De Epalza, Mikel. “Mozarabs: An Emblematic Christian Minority” in “The Legacy of Muslim Spain.” Ed. Salma Khadra Jayussi. Leiden: 1992, pp. 149-170. Retrieved from http://scholar.google.com/
“This pact [between Muslims and Christians] was not, however, an agreement between two equal parties, but rather an admission, on the part of the Christians, of the superior power and political authority of Islam, involving the acceptance of Islamic laws by Christians…Having accepted the pact, Christians…periodically renewed it through acts of political, military and fiscal submission” (152).
“The last evidence of Christian communities in al-Andalus emerges in the light of the Almoravid and Almohad policy in the 6th/12th century, when Christians, together with Jewish communities, were expelled from al-Andalus to the Western Maghrib” (162).
That Muslims don't have a lock on treating members outside their faith as second class citizens, don't you?
Ask the Jews in the ghettos of Europe what that's like. Ask African Americans kidnapped and enslaved by Christian founding fathers of this country. Ask the Japanese interned during WWII. Ask the Chinese during the Occupation.
Hell, in this country, we treated women and minorities like second class citizens for the majority of our history, even though Christianity is the dominant religion here.
My point is that this is abhorrent but HUMAN behavior. Your fundamental dishonesty is trying to draw distinctions strictly around Islam.
By the way, I lived peacefully as a practicing Catholic in Iran as a child while my dad was stationed at the embassy there. We had a thriving Christian community prior to the revolution.
//That Muslims don't have a lock on treating members outside their faith as second class citizens, don't you?//
But of all religions' founding figures, only those of Islam went around making people of other religions second-class citizens.
however, why don't you describe the process in which Christianity got new members in the early days?
Again, you can base your argument on this rather narrow (and frankly historically questionable, because I can provide scholarly works that say the exact opposite of the book you've cited) base, but it makes you fundamentally dishonest by not acknowledging the whole of history.
//however, why don't you describe the process in which Christianity got new members in the early days?//
Well, for the first three hundred years it was entirely peaceful. That's what really counts. The violence did come until hundreds of years after the earliest Christian founding figures.
Prove it
//to post a load of bullshit that's easily discounted? //
Really? Show me any religion besides Islam in which the founding figures went around conquering, massacring and forcefully converting people. You can't. Only the founding figures of Islam did those things.
It's a plainly obvious truth.
You ignored the Brigham Young link.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
//You ignored the Brigham Young link.//
You ignored the fact that Brigham Young didn't found Christianity. Jesus & the early Apostles did.
Hey, I realize you have a king sized hardon of hate for the muslims. eh.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
//Hey, I realize you have a king sized hardon of hate for the muslims. eh.//
Is it wrong to hate tyranny? To some degree, sure, hate is unhealthy. So a healthy distrust and reasoned efforts to undermine are in order.
Muslim=tyrant. Nothing like that in other wide ranging religions. Pour out the kool-aid, Mr. Hyperbolic. "Is it wrong to hate tyranny?" What an overtly bigoted load of shite talk.
me-oww!
//Muslim=tyrant. Nothing like that in other wide ranging religions. Pour out the kool-aid, Mr. Hyperbolic. "Is it wrong to hate tyranny?" What an overtly bigoted load of shite talk.//
I bet you if you divide the world into faith groups, use freedom metrics like those from Freedom House or something similar, Islamic countries will fall right into the bottom. And that's how it's always been throughout Islamic history.
It's not bigotry. It's a plain fact staring you straight in the face. Muslim countries are the most unfree.
time waster.
me-oww!
Jesus did not found Christianity; he allegedly was running a reform movement within Judaism, with a marked predilection toward Essenics.
In fact, his name was purportedly Yeshua ben Joseph, and perhaps he was aiming for a messianic status (often human in Judaism). Christ comes from the Greek word Christos meaning the anointed one, which was what a new initiate into the Greek Mystery Religions was called. Because of the reputation some held some scholars (wiseacres) have argued it was semen in a homosexual kind of faith.
Saul/Paul, coming from Tarsus an important center of the Herculean faith, seemed to put heavier emphasis on the death and resurrection aspects, as opposed to what he taught, so that the religion Paul created was closer to a Mystery Religion, with a strong influence from the Osirian and Triptolemian Mysteries.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Centuries before Christ's birth, you'll find eerie similarities.
Maybe Mithra was the founding father.
It was a cult built up around his alleged teachings after he allegedly died. How do you know how people behaved during the founding of any religion? Were you there? Sharp concise historical recountings? Remember, the whole Christianity thing wasn't a blip on the radar for a few hundred years.
me-oww!
It doesn't matter what the founders did. It does matter how the followers behaved. With or w/o your special little caveat, it's still bullshit...
me-oww!
This may have posted already, apologies if it did.
"Show me any religion besides Islam in which the founding figures went around conquering, massacring and forcefully converting people".
And what was the Protestant Reformation of the 16th Century in Northern Europe...just a pleasant little garden party?!? How many people were massacred because the Protestant founding fathers were determined to break away from the Catholic Church? How many lives were killed, besides Catholics & Protestants & Jews (who had rejected Martin Luther's call to join him in fighting the Church, earning his wrath), lives of many who were caught in the middle? Not to mention the wars that followed such as the Thirty Years War.
If Islam's founders were indeed so evil & feared as barbarians, then why did most areas of the Middle East welcome them as liberators, particularly Egypt & Syria? Possibly because those societies were tired of being exploited financially & politically by the Byzantine & Persian Empires (particlarly Egypt, whom the Byzantines robbed them of their grain harvests & used them as the bread basket of their Empire).
count. Much like 25% of the country who insist that 9/11 doesn't count and Bush kept us safe for 8 years. Similar logic.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
//then why did most areas of the Middle East welcome them as liberators, particularly Egypt & Syria?//
Yeah, they welcomed the Muslim Arabs b/c they didn't expect to be ruled over the long-term by Muslim Arabs (Arabs had never ruled as a hegemon over anyone else before that point). They expected the Muslim Arabs to kick out the Greeks, whom they'd had a long experience of being subjected to, and then expected the Arabs to leave and go back to the desert like they'd always done before in their raids on surrounding civilisations.
But the Egyptians & Syrians definitely didn't want the Muslims to stay, and they rebelled.
Jandora, J. W. (1986). “Developments in Islamic Warfare: The Early Conquests.” Studia Islamica, 64, pp. 101-113. Retrieved from JSTOR database.
“After the Muslims took control of Syria, much of the population emigrated to Byzantine territory in the north. Many of those who remained in the coastal cities and the frontier regions were still loyal to Byzantium” (110-111).
Wipszycka, Ewa. “The Institutional Church” in “Egypt in the Byzantine World: 300-700” Ed. Roger S. Bagnall. Cambridge University Press: 2007, pp. 331-349. Retrieved from http://scholar.google.com/
“At the beginning of the eight century, wanting to increase the fiscal revenues from Egypt, the Arabs changed the system of calculating and collecting taxes. The clergy lost the possibility of influencing these operations in its own favour. It was not possible to protect churches and monasteries against the growth of taxes. Fiscal pressure and the harsh methods used by governors who were interested only in looting a country that was considered extremely rich and provoked a number of local rebellions, which were bloodily repressed. Most of these rebellions broke out in the Delta, the first in 693, the second – the greatest – in 832” (346).
“The Coptic rebellions increased the mistrust of the [Muslim] authorities towards all Christians, with the result that it became more and more difficult for Copts to get the better jobs in the state administration” (347).
You are wrong prove it
Hanratty sounded like a spoiled nine-year-old whining, squirming, squeaking and snorting like some wounded earthworm about all those scary Muslim Brotherhood guys coming to your house tonight to take your six-year-old daughter to sell her into middle-east sex slave trade tomorrow morning. I'm sure it was all he could do NOT to reach for his concealed pistol and start blowing up every scary Muslim in sight...
Hanratty is SUCH a douche-bag it seems to be getting harder and harder, even for neo-nut loons to take him serious anymore... OH, and one other thing... Did Beeek get his invitation to the Koch Brothers hide-away in Palm Springs this last weekend instead of Hanratty?? Inquiring minds couldn't give a crap one way or the other but that may be the reason he's acting like such a twit.. Pretty soon we going to have to worry if Hanratty is actually becoming Tucker Carlson??!?!?!?!?!
This about low wages and rising food prices, that is what set this off. This has nothing to do with Islam, fricken Hannity needs to publicly denounced on every level.
Goodnight, Frau Blücher
FOX is so toxic i'm surprised the authorities haven't shut them down months ago.
Wing-nut central.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
And I am sure they will .
Insanity , it is what it is , there is no understanding it .
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