Aid Agencies Say Gaza Needs Food, Medicine and Body Bags
By Susie Madrak Monday Jan 05, 2009 7:00pmMads Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor in Gaza, tells Sky News that the number of civilians injured and killed in Gaza proves that Israel is deliberately attacking the population.
The people of Gaza continue to be caught in the middle of the power play between Israel and Hamas:
JERUSALEM, Jan 5 (Reuters) - People in Gaza were in dire need of food and medical supplies, aid agencies said on Monday, but Israel's ground assault and air raids were hampering relief efforts.
Freezing cold is compounding the misery of children caught in the conflict. And body bags for victims are in short supply.
"The situation in Gaza since the Israel Defense Forces launched their ground offensive on Saturday night has become both chaotic and extremely dangerous," the International Committee of the Red Cross said in a situation report.
Air raids had damaged hospitals, water supply systems, government buildings and mosques but it was difficult for ICRC staff to move around to assist, it said.
About 530 Palestinians have been killed, at least a quarter of them civilians, since Israel launched its offensive on Dec. 27 to curtail Hamas rocket attacks from Gaza.
Ground troops invaded the enclave, home to 1.5 million Palestinians, on Saturday night after a week of bombardments from the air and from naval vessels.
Hospitals were inundated with Palestinian wounded, the ICRC said. Fresh supplies were urgently needed, including painkillers and anaesthetics but also body bags and sheets to wrap corpses.
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Isreal should be very proud.
Has been disproportionate. Overkill I would say.
I'm sick of this whole thing. Hamas is too stupid to reach out for peace. And Israel is being too cruel with their retaliation.
This has been going on too long. Somebody has to do something.
Stop selling arms to Israel,and the Arab states/countries need to step in and force Hamas and Hezbollah to cease and desist.
over the past 5 years, hamas has shot thousands of rockets into israel
you are right...it is dispraportionate....
israel should shot thousands of rockets back
untargeted...right into civillian areas
should be dealt with by the sane world. You make apologists of the world proud.
america elected an evil idiot for 2 terms
most of america initially believed in and supported an illegal and immoral war that killed and maimed thousands of times the amount that israel is currently...
russia just cut off oil supplies to the ukraine
in africa, they are cutting off the limbs of albinos to make medicine
in arab countries, honor killings are common place
in america, a good chunk of the population is not allowed to marry because of some ancient concept of marriage
but that didnt stop dennis prager from getting married for a third time...despite the fact that he sees marriage as some throwaway toy
rush limbaugh, hannity and oreilly get paid millions to spew filth over the airwaves on a daily basis
harry reid will not seat franken as a senator tomorrow
this is far from a sane world
where you sit probably. But the U.S. and its proxy, Israel foster a national psychosis that is apparent from the rest of the civilized world.
As a victim of invasion, occupation and suppression my world view is much different than yours. If you can't accept that, that is your problem, not mine. There are saner views expressed by some here but definitely not U.J.
or are you here in the states
if you are here in the states....who is occupying and suppressing you
There are plenty of putdowns that I have heard and dealt with just because of my appearance. Are you that naive or just {Edited, civility please. SiteMonitor}
if you are in the states...then i have no clue what you are talking about
unless you are saying that america should return all of the land that it won, stole or purchased during its many wars
if that is the case...then at least you are being consistent
{Edited, No name calling SiteMonitor}....but consistent
{ Deleted, offensive.SiteMonitor}
OH, that's right. The Spanish did.
as i recall, most of the new world was conquered by the europeans...
you speak in riddles
who is oppressing you?
being called insane!
Did you miss that one sm?
but you still havent told me who is oppressing you
is this like the old cheech and chong bit?
depression....repression....its the same thing man
... to caption a post. :)
up the concept of internalized oppression.
{Deleted, Off Topic. SiteMonitor}
of internal invasion, occupation and suppression, so you think you have a lot in common with the inmates of Gaza? Ah--I doubt it.
However, I've heard about space aliens who do that sort of thing...
Not a single ISRAELI was killed.
Why DID you BREAK the Cease fire ON NOV 4TH 2008?
does cease fire mean only death, or any shooting
because during the cease fire period, hamas still sent over missiles...just at a reduced rate
so if i shoot at you and dont hit you...does that mean i am not liable for attempted murder?
Hamas orderd his forces not to shoot Rockets during this period.
That's why the attacks were reduced to the minimun.
You could had sent your special units to kill those "provocators"
You launched a mayor provocation on nov 4th 2008 (Killing 5 Hamas Mayor leaders) breaking the cease fire and starting the seige the very next day (US elections. Bravo!)
Please be Honest. What ZIONISTS wants is:The LAND, NATURAL GAS (LNG) that belong to the palestinians.
ZIONISM IS IMPERIALISM
"The dream of Greater Israel -a homeland for the Jewish people from the Nile to Euphrates- which inspired the founding fathers of Zionism, was already dead."
Olmert 2008
and yet, missiles were fired at a reduced rate
that makes alot of sense
major provocation on nov 4? israel bombed tunnels that were used to ferry weapons
they did not target civillians
they bombed the ground
oops...hamas leaders were in the tunnels
"This is as much about Hamas "rockets" as Iraq was about "WMDs"..
and have lived with the bombardments from hamas
was it just their imagination?
Hamas couldn't control its rocketeers? Like Hamas wouldn't know who in its organization was producing and shooting off rockets (from schoolyards, among other places)! Hamas is like Fatah is like the Israeli government. They say one thing and do another (that's usually more evil).
BTW, the U.S. is imperialist as well; I assume you're doing everything in your power to avoid participating in American imperialism? Not using gasoline, heating oil, fruit from Central America, etc.? Will you be giving your house back to the Indians on whose stolen land it was built?
No. But you have just showed how moral relativism can be used to justify any action. I could come to your house and stuff your mouth with dog shit and explain it away as good fiber. You should then be thankful ask for another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_a...
Israelis were killed, and Hamas and Islamic Jihad were trying to kill a lot more... .
Actually:
http://middleeast.change.org/
The abject refusal of many pro-Israel supporters to recognize the simple fact that the Palestinians are under a brutal military occupation is truly stunning.
Yet, they speak with such confidence regarding Hamas' so-called refusal to recognize Israel. As if Hamas has the means.
Would you like a short history lesson? After WWI, Britain, as an imperial power, controlled Palestine. The Balfour declaration guaranteed Jews a homeland in Palestine. The Palestinians weren't asked, of course.
Now, I think many are prepared to look to the future and focus on a solution, but how can a solution be reached when Israel keeps shooting that proverbial peace in the foot over and over? It's basically stonewalling the process in hopes that the Palestinians will either leave on their own or run away in fear all the while it claims it wants peace.
The kind of peace Israel is interested in, is the kind of peace you'd make with Native Americans after you've massacred them, then you hand them a little reservation and a casino and say, "Here, now aren't you glad you stuck around long enough to live in peace with us?"
Israel's "defense," meaning a HEAVY offense has been OBJECTIVELY way over the top!! The death-toll has literally been more than 100 to 1...
If Israel thinks that losing 15 people since 2004, justifies this level of killing, they're sadly mistaken & Hyper hypocritical. Israel has 70+ UN violations to bulldoze homes and build illegal settlements. Israel does not respect the 67' borders & hypocritically has an undeclared nuclear arsenal!?! Israel is NOT a friend to the U.S., & is NOT a Democracy, either.
I do not condone the (democratically elected) Hamas rockets, but think if Israel wants peace, they should try ending the blockade on the prison camp of Gaza!!
More importantly, End ALL The BILLIONS In Annual U.S. tax payer aid & military equipment to Israel.
America for America, FIRST!!!
People pay no attention when Hamas fires a rocket into Israeli civilian areas, but they scream bloody murder when Israel responds and defends itself. Screw that!!! Those civilians voted for Hamas, the murderers, now they should shut up and accept responsibility for their choices.
carike,
Please refer to the part where I say:
"I do not condone the (democratically elected) Hamas rockets, but think if Israel wants peace, they should try ending the blockade on the prison camp of Gaza!!"
Who pushed for the "democratic" elections in the 1st place, anyway!?!
It is the U.S. & Israel (one in the same) that needs to accept Hamas!
Maybe it's me, but it seems the U.S. & Israel only respect governments that tow the line or that they install...
Israel: Proudly the leader in the most U.S. tax payer aid, AND the most U.N. violations, WORLDWIDE!!
Woo Hoo...
Israel has already done that for years.
How many children have died in Gaza since 2001? Almost 1000.
Please compare that with any Israeli losses. There its about 100 to 1.
As strategic as the IDF is, they are fighting a complex war and military operation, because Hamas uses human shields as Palestinians who get caught in the crossfire. It's an extremely dicey and tricky situation like removing cancer that will still be there in an operation.
It's like Israel is trying to kill a bee (i.e. Hamas) on someone's head (i.e. Palestinians), but they often miss.
As for getting facts straight on the Middle East, check out www.camera.org.
Wars are fought between 2 Armies.
When Armies attack civilians it is called genocide.
They don't actually target civilians - they are seeking Hamas militants, and the Palestinians are like human shields. How can accidentally shooting those caught in the middle be genocide? When are Palestinian casualties the same thing as genocide? Those are just casualties that the IDF regrets. That's why targeting Hamas militants is tricky.
How exactly does the Gaza Blockade or the Gaza Incursion help Israel?
All I see Israel doing is turning itself into a magnate for every Jihadist in the Middle East. Where do you think all those Jihadists and would-be revolutionaries in Iraq are going to go after the Iraq War ends? My bet is Gaza. It's where all the fun stuff is happening.
I don't really want to hear about the whole rocket firing thing. Hamas and Israel worked out a truce several months ago. The Israelis turned around and threw up a blockade. The Israeli Government 110% knew that Hamas would eventually start lobbing rockets. These things happen when you throw up economic blockades.
My question is why?
The short answer is this;
The Israeli Government is in a lot of trouble with the Israeli people. Israel has a leader that is pretty much going to be handcuffed and drug off to prison the day he leaves office. It has nothing to do with Hamas. The guy was caught stealing money from the Government to pay for his family to go on expensive vacations. Not so much a big deal in the states; but, a huge deal in a smaller country like Israel. They have already served the indictments against him. They just can't finish the prosecution until he leaves office.
Seriously, the indictments have already been filed. The guy is a real douchebag anyways. He was responsible for the whole Lebanon debacle a few years ago. Why support a leader like that? Why allow him to antaganize the people of Gaza into firing rockets? Why allow him to repeat his Lebanon debacle in the Gaza? Just from a distance, Olmert really does look like he's got a few dozen screws loose.
Doesn't make much sense to me.
The jihadists would still have a beef with the Western world, regardless of whether or not Israel existed, or the US support thereof. Although the root may be Hamas firing rockets into Israeli cities, there's also the policy of the Israeli leadership which can fail.
Even so, what the IDF is doing is retaliating against such rocket attacks.
Could you imagine if the Sudanese take back their land in Darfur against the Islamic regime there in control of Sudan's government? Although, I'm not sure whether the UN would react and condemn them too for human rights violations.
It's like Israel comes off as the "black sheep" of the world.
attacking civilians. The government is putting pressure on Gaza's inhabitants to overthrow Hamas, just like the Clinton Administration tried to force the Iraqi people to overthrow Saddam by starving them and depriving them of necessities. Nice to know the Israelis have taken a page from U.S. policy, right?
Check out the wikipedia entry (which camera members were found to be fiddling with). They are not there to provide an unbiased view of the middle east, but an unapologetically pro-Israeli view.
the ap and others are posting casualty reports without confirmation
the ap and others are posting pics of casualties without assessing how and where the injuries took place...or whether the parties are truly injured
there is no such thing as an unbiased media
{Deleted, Knock it off.SiteMonitor}
sorry you got deleted...but no, i am a registered independent
former dem
i am on the liberal side on most occasions
not on this, where it seems opinion is slanted way to one side...to me, the wrong side
So if your friend had a bee on his head you would hit him?Not very friendly.
and a lying excuse to kill civilians.
i have seen vids of attacks being staged from schools, hospitals and mosques
sounds like a shield to me
instead of strafe-bombing and using white phosphorus and depleted uranium?
I've heard of mosques being used for weapons storage and meetings, but haven't even heard of any hospitals, schools, or mosques being used as launch sites - let alone any video.
the american media is pushing the 'human shield' meme as well as the 'Israel is always right' meme.
jeepers...do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?
Put up or shut up.
Linky please.
Where'd tubesox go?
Trying to find that back up video without luck, apparently...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWTyyQpezps
Hamas members launching mortar shells from a boys school in Northern Gaza. Seriously, why do people think that because the Israeli government is doing bad things, Hamas must be good?
There was lots of evil music. What I didn't understand was all the concrete debris surrounding the school. Is it still a "school" after it's been bombed?
BTW, why do people think that because some Hamas are doing bad things, Israel is good?
Israel has yet to prove one of the claims of firing from schools and hospitals. The UN run UNRWA schools and the hospitals both have tons of staff and forbid weapons.
Israel, until it can prove this claim, is just using it to stave off criticism. Please provide proof. Random claims like this have no veracity.
Well, if a rocket hit anyone's neighborhood, wouldn't they be determined to find out who did it and seek justice after the callateral damage done. Maybe Israel is fortunate enough to have the resources to fight back against Hamas - hardly any other country has such resources in the world, with the exception of the US (to some degree).
Just because a majority would be against a particular subject, doesn't necessarily make it right. The MSM spreads a lot of bias and misinfo, and yes, there's probably no such thing as unbiased sources.
Six million Jews were killed by the Nazis, a Holocaust of unimaginable suffering and death.
Where is the humanity of these people? Was that also wiped out?
I would think that the Jews would be the most peaceful people after going through that time in history, but they are not. Is it just the leaders or are all the people so bloodthirsty?
if the israelis just sat there as rockets continued to cascade on them
they are jews...not christians
they dont have the concept of "turning the other cheek"
and i take great umbrage at you comparing this to a holocaust
if israel wanted to make it into a holocaust, they wouldnt send in ground troups
they would just fire bomb the entire gaza
better yet...they could pull a black september like the jordanians did and machine gun 25000 palestinians....amazingly, back then the world didnt give a shit
to the Holocaust that the Jews suffered. I just simply wanted to know why a nation whose people have suffered would turn around and be so militant.
They have bulldozed people from their homes, cut off food and water supplies and done things to cause such suffering to other people for a long time.
I don't have any answers, just questions as to why.
about finally responding to years of missle attacks?
think the us would wait five years to launch a full offensive?
are you aware that gaza also shares a border with egypt and that egypts border is shut even tighter than israels?
guess you werent paying attention when missle attacks started the second israel pulled out of gaza
guess you werent paying attention to the suicide bombing missions staged from gaza
its not militant to protect oneself from terrorists
To these 5 years of missle attacks. Link? unbiased!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWTyyQpezps
Hamas mortar attack from schoolyard in Northern Gaza. There are other videos on YouTube and they're quite easy to find.
There was lots of evil music. What I didn't understand was all the concrete debris surrounding the school. Is it still a "school" after it's been bombed?
are a little touchy after 2,000 years of torture, expulsion and genocide and another 60 years of almost unabated hostility from its Arab neighbors? Maybe they figure that relying on the good will of others isn't such a good idea anymore?
useful from uncle joe. best find a less brain-washed source.
The leaders maybe, but don't paint ALL the Jews with a broad brush.
They're a whole lot of different people. Like when you say "the Americans," you mean a nation of 360 million people who often don't agree with each other. Or "the Christians."
See, when you refer to an entire race or religion as "them," it's bigoted. You don't recognize them as individuals, you see them as some kind of monolithic other.
But to answer your question, there are millions of Jews who aren't bloodthirsty. And there millions of others who are still crabby about the Holocaust and those Arab wars (and the Inquisition, and the pogroms, and the expulsions, etc.)
Thanks for asking!
And Saudi Arabia need to put troops in there to police the trouble there. Then and only then will we ever see peace there.
And still, there is no guarantee.
pics???
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0eToeOx9YrgMg/A_...
http://www.daylife.com/photo/07HqgalbyofnJ/A_...
that is the same "wounded" little girl
and how about this pic of an agrieved gazan, yucking it up next to "dead" bodies
http://blog.camera.org/archives/brown%20jacke...
and should i post the youtube vids of arabs perfectly arranged for the cameras...lying on the ground in neat circles???
And those men "yuking it up. Don't look like their laughing to me.
You need help.
the dude is laughing
of course, you dont comment on the little girl...cuz that bursts your bubble
That little girl is injured. And that man is crying.
As I said before, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and, Yes, Egypt need to step up here. And put troops in to quell the violence. But that would burst your bloodlust bubble. Wouldn't it?
[deleted--you call one more poster a name and you are on a time out for at least a week and an apology to the site team. People can disagree with your stances and not be what you called them. If this thread is too hard for you to stay civil, I strongly suggest you move to another thread. This is your only friendly warning. I dealt with enough of your flamebaiting last night. -SiteMonitor]
{Deleted, This ends now. SiteMonitor}
nuff said
All that means is a little girl is a victim .
instead of getting medical treatment???
are you serious?
She was in route to getting medical treatment.
So what if two men were handling her. There is a million reasons that could happen. Especially in a war zone.
uh, maybe the guy holding her had to go help another person and handed her off.
that is willful, hateful ignorance.
When my husband was in a near fatal car accident, depending on how wide a shot you took and the time of day, the photo of the emergency room would have his wife, his mother-in-law, his sister-in-law, his brother, his daughter, and his neighbor in it, several of us with his blood on our persons.
Would you accuse us of faking his injuries?
Your heartlessness to the injuries of a toddler is breathtaking.
your bias is unbelievable. it's a shame you harbor so much hate for a side that suffers as much as the side you support.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6lIsl-pHU
I sit here at this moment weeping for the state of the world.
There is warfare going on at this moment with United States tax dollars that is backing the killing of innocent Palestinian men, women and children.
What does it mean to be an American citizen/tax payer?
What have we become as a country?
Who are we....as human beings?
Have we no conscience?
Have we no compassion?
Have we no decency?
Have we no soul???
What is wrong with the American People....that we will allow such a travesty of humanity to unfold with our consent and our tax dollars against all meaning of our collective, decent consciousness??
Where is soon to be President Obama in their and our hour of need?
This is a sad day to be an American citizen.
Site Monitor note: this is not about any individual poster.
We can justify each and every side with more photos and proof of death and destruction, but the POINT is that this is not the way. These people need help and as a human being I see suffering and it hurts me down to my very soul. In fact, this whole debacle bores down into my very soul. Just another example of Georgie wiping his hands clean of this mess and dropping it into Obama's lap. Obama MUST make a statement about this SOONER than later.
but neither of these look faked. The guy who's holding the girl while she's been undressed and intubated may be holding her because there's no place to set her down.
For a faked atrocity, have a Google at the famous photos of the man and his son "being shot to death by Israeli soldiers." The evidence of fakery there is very strong. Not like here.
America's population is actually 300 million.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww
You are truly shameless. The fanatical Zionists in North America put the fanatics in Israel to shame.
It's no wonder that most of the fanatics who immigrate to Israel and move to a settlement in the West Bank are fluent in English. The irony is that when I ask them what they're doing there, they talk to me in Hebrew, but with a heavy American accent and proclaim "This is the land of our fathers..." (Zo Eretz Avoteno).
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052974.html
to israel's atrocities could hardly be found.
Depleted uranium found in Gaza victims
Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:16:21 GMT
Medics tell Press TV they have found traces of depleted uranium in some Gaza residents wounded in Israel's ground offensive on the strip.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80443&se...
http://politicsnpoetry.wordpress.com/2009/01/...
doesnt know anything about the depleted uranium
he states that he believes that these high explosives can cause cancer in survivors, but there is no research attesting to this fact, so that is only his supposition
i only know that depleted uranium is what caused the "gulf war syndrome" that returning u.s. vets were diagnosed with. it came from the depleted uranium rounds we used to destroy iraqi tanks. from my understanding the symptoms were mostly respiratory, with the most severe being cancer. apparently they were breathing in the depleted uranium that was being burned from the smoldering tanks. this goes hand in hand with all of the other poison we have used in our weapons over the years. agent orange all over again.
if the israelis are using depleted uranium shells thats not that surprising (but still unconscionable), we probably sold them to 'em.
that depleted uranium munitions would have any use in this battle. They are used exclusively as armor piercing rounds and if Hamas has armored vehicles it is news to me.
the primary use of depleted uranium shells is armor piercing. however if the tanks israel went into gaza with were outfitted with them its not too difficult to imagine them using them. without reporters being allowed into gaza we won't know for sure until after this is all over. and even then the findings will be heavily disputed.
i would also have to ask what white phosphorous is being used for. there are plenty of other smoke rounds that could have been used without the horrible side effects. but instead they chose to use the one with the chemical weapon side effects.
The American made 30mm chain guns used by helicopters and jet fighters use rounds that are made from DU. They do not manufacture rounds for those weapons that are not made from DU. If Israel is using helicopters or jets then they are absolutely using DU rounds.
The Sabot tank rounds for the smoothebore 120mms on the tanks are not suited for this kind of combat. They can only be used against armored vehicles. The tanks are using HEAT rounds.
i appreciate the information.
now i know. and knowing is half the battle.
DU is used for armor piercing. There is no reason whatsoever to use them in 30 mm rounds or any other caliber if there is no target that warrants their use. They are considerably more expensive then conventional rounds and less effective against anything but armor.
what better reason to use it and what better place to dispose of it than dropping it on the "official" enemy.
but they are definitely using white phosphorus, which is horrific enough.
Cernig here and at Newshoggers has some great coverage.
Siun at FDL has a heartbreaking post
http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/gaza-update...
what is worse about using white phosphorous for smoke cover in high civilian areas is that it makes it so you cant see if the people you are shooting at are civilians or soldiers. it creates chaos and more civilian deaths. hmmm... makes you wonder why israel woruld want to.... never mind
eyes, skin are especially vulnerable. water makes it worse!
it is horrific to think that they would use weapons like these.
also...
think progress had a post saying that there were reports of cluster bombs being used. i saw a similar broadcast of a norwegian doctor currently in gaza (found at democratic underground) that said the wounds he was seeing looked like they were caused by cluster bombs. for those that don't remember, israel used cluster bombs against lebanon in 2006 (although they first denied doing it).
boy...he sure does get around
there aren't that many doctors in there unfortunately. someone has to be the voice of what they are seeing
other foreign doctors were allowed access
just wondering who made this guy a spokesperson
how many theaters of battle has he been in that he knows what causes what type of injury
not too much war in norway
i dont know his background or his experience with modern warfare or weaponry. although if he has volunteered to go into this warzone it is not too difficult to think he would have done so previously. there are certainly enough conflicts in the world for him to get the experience. but i would have to ask what possible reason a norwegian surgeon would have for lying about what he was seeing. does norway usually side with hamas?
haveing used willy pete on the chinese i can tell you the only thing that will stop its burning thru your body is to cut it out with a knife!
dont see the reference to wp
He updated it with news of white phosphorus.
israel is a terrorist nation backed by
the bush/cheney and in general the USA.
this should stop, israel is courting
a reprisal from the arab world that
could be very costly if not suicidal.
"israel is a terroist nation"
there is no reality in that statement
did you read what mubarek said???
i stand by my opinion.
the rapture can not come
soon enough for israel's
abject hatred for the rest of
the arab world.
who are calling for their destruction?
please do me a favor...if i ever find myself in a fight, dont come to my aid...you will tell me to hug and kiss the guy who is stomping my guts out
is mutual.
Israel has made it clear that they want the destruction of Hamas, the duly elected governing body of Palestine.
Nothing will ever get better if we don't stop pointing fingers at one side.
BOTH sides are guilty. BOTH sides have called for the destruction of the other. BOTH sides have considered high numbers of civilian killings as collateral to the war.
It is not a black and white issue and there is no clear good guy in this conflict.
But Hamas is governing Gaza. Fatah is in charge of the West Bank.
My brain got ahead of myself.
one calls for the destruction of an entire people and nation
the other calls for the destruction of a terrorist org
im sorry that you dont see the difference
All you have to do is label someone "Hamas" - and you can kill them (and their family). That's it; that's all. Not quite as convenient as "suspected militant," but hey, any excuse for a massacre.
BTW Hamas didn't just run "terrorist central," they also handled crucial social services. Surprisingly (/snark), that's a lot of people - the vast majority of whom aren't terrorists.
Hamas is the ELECTED representative of Gaza. Like or not, they are part of the government.
I could make a similar statement about the Bush White House being a terrorist organization, but that doesn't make them less a legitimate government entity.
The IDF has declared a desire to destroy anyone who has an incidental relationship to Hamas. That pretty much means all Gazan citizens:
They are shooting white phosphorus cluster munitions over an area about twice the size of Washington DC. These are not surgical attacks...these are attacks that are harming Gazans that are already impoverished, starving and lacking supplies.
Tell me again who is being terrorized.
is there independent confirmation that the israelis are using wp
and if these were not surgical attacks...wouldnt the death and injury toll be higher?
i use iraq as an example
would assert that the Israeli government's definition of combatants is too broad, considering that the British government used the same definitions when targeting the IRA. The IRA's political and support wings were targeted for a very long time.
The IDF's definition of "Hamas" is the same used by any military trying to destroy an insurgency; the U.S. military simply cordoned off Fallujah and destroyed it along with anyone unlucky enough not to have gotten out.
Israel is deliberately targeting civilians. That's the war crime(s). The attacks on actual Hamas members are not a war crime.
One group sees this as a struggle between us and them; and, the otherside sees it as a struggle between them and us.
All I see is a bunch of grown adults that handle themselves like children.
Quite honestly, the Jews and the Palestinians both deserve a good spanking and no desert.
either.
"one calls for the destruction of an entire people and nation"
You need to update your rolodex, bud. Hamas no longer calls for the destruction of Israel. That policy was retracted years ago. Hamas wants Israel to abide by the UN resolution to return to the pre-1967 war boundaries.
"the other calls for the destruction of a terrorist org"
By "terrorist org" I am assuming you are referring to Hamas, an organization that provides social services - medical, schools, hospitals, etc. - the people of Gaza. Why do you think Hamas won more than 60% of the vote in the last elections?
Why don't you go to Gaza, what I refer to as the new "Warsaw Ghetto," and see why hunger, lack of electrical power, clean water, fuel and living under the broad thumb of the Israeli army all forments violence. No, when the weak respond to the imposition by the powerful, it's not terrorism. It's called survival.
disagree with you Nicole but in this case I must. Hamas has called for the destruction of every Israeli while Israel has not sought the destruction of every Palestinian.There is a difference. I do not offer this as a justification of the ongoing stupidity but I beg to point out that if Israel is actively targeting Palestinians civilians as Doctor Gilbert suggests, they are doing it very badly. Given the population density of Gaza the ratio of civilian deaths and injuries to Hamas killed and wounded is astoundingly low compared to what happened in Iraq and is happening in Afghanistan. Nothing will be accomplished by the Israeli incursion into Gaza except possibly they may so damage Hamas that the next truce will last a few months longer until the next round begins.
... Israel's "right to exist" is a rather paltry concern to Palestinians worried about their own, personal, "right to exist." I really don't think a triage nurse outside a hospital overflowing with patients is effectively working for the destruction of a nuclear power - no matter how much the nurse might desire it.
Yet she is Hamas. She voted Hamas. She may still support Hamas - even more so - as the only defense that she has against those who are killing her people by the hundreds. Where else can she turn?
Is that they are both calling for each other's destruction. I don't know that Hamas has in fact called for the destruction of every Israeli, because I do not trust our media's recounting.
For example, we still hear that Ahmadinejad called for the destruction of Israel (which could be then figured out to mean that he called for the destruction of every Israeli). But the fact is he never did that. He repeated something that the Ayatollah had said that he prayed for the page to turn on the chapter of Israel. That's a much different statement. Even still, it gets repeated as gospel truth and is used as a justification for selling arms to Israel to protect itself against Iran.
Hamas is not a blameless organization nor are they a group that I particularly look to defend. But I'm tired of the one-sidedness of this discussion.
They BOTH want to destroy the other. They BOTH don't care how many civilian casualties occur as a result. I want it all to end, but it won't unless we are honest about it.
We can go back and they can point fingers back and forth at each other for who initiated it ad infinitum. It doesn't matter. What matters now is a commitment to rise above this and work towards peace.
Because here's the thing: in a war, if your goal is the destruction of people rather than bringing democracy to an oppressed people or a naked land grab {and it doesn't matter which people or which side we're talking about) then all we will have is crimes against humanity and no peace until there is no one left to fight, aka genocide.
I don't want that. It's that simple.
... if it was in a post or recent comment, but I remember you mentioning a close relationship with a Persian family and a Middle East trip that included Tehran.
Was the destruction of Israel a serious desire of the people you met? Was it even wishful thinking? Was it even discussed?
The Persian family that I am close to NEVER mentioned that. In fact, when we went to Tehran together, we had dinner at the home of a Persian Jewish family (this was pre-Revolution), who I still see now (they immigrated to the US 20 years ago).
It's not like Iranians greet each other in the street with "Death to Israel!". Iranians themselves are surprisingly pro-American. After 9/11 one of the largest candlelight vigils in the world was held in Tehran. Iranians have a lot of practice of separating their feelings for the citizens with the government. Many of them are unhappy with their government as well, but feel besieged by the threats we and Israel continually lob towards them and choose to keep people who sound like they will fight back.
But fiver, we're very isolated here in the US. One of the advantages I've gotten from my traveling is realizing just how much propaganda is given to us in the form of news. The way Israel's actions and sympathy for Palestinians is looked upon in Europe is very, very different. And the US's blind support for Israel is a source of real puzzlement. Our "meddling" in the Middle East (and this goes back for almost 80 years now) has done nothing but sown discontent and distrust of us.
I think so many of my generation (I'm 45) and my parents' generation as well were fed the "US has the greatest freedom of the press" BS for so long that we have come to believe that whatever crap the "news" feeds us is the complete picture. Of course, that is rapidly changing, but the damage takes a long time to undo.
I bet the majority of US citizens, if polled, would think that most Muslims daily pray for "death to America", or that Cuban-Americans (here in Miami) have weekly meetings on the next move to overthrow Castro.
It takes awhile to undo the stupid foisted upon us by our media.
with your position on both the futility of the violence and the finger pointing. I do not support the Israeli government in this incursion and would like nothing better than to see an endless truce. Hamas has very publicly called for the complete destruction of Israel as late the week before the current nightmare began. I recognize that this may be nothing more than politcal rhetoric. (It is what passes for an election platform in the Middle East) My point is that characterizing Israel's military operation as deliberately targeting civilians is not supported by the facts. If Israel ever resorted to such a policy it would truly spell their doom. My sympathies actually lie squarely with the Gazans in this matter (not Hamas). I suspect that if I offered a Gazan the end of a stick he wouldn't recognize it because it hadn't got shit on it.
excellent point! israel is having an election in february. that no doubt had some impact on the decision to go into gaza. it seems every election over there (middle east, not just israel) the rhetoric seems to get amped up more and more.
I said they didn't care how many civilians were lost as collateral.
Scroll down for Cernig's post on the use of white phosphorus. That's not the surgical strikes the Israeli press would have you believe. And in an incredibly densely populated area that's 1/4 the size of Rhode Island (if that), there's going to be an awful lot of collateral damage.
I should have been clearer about that. I wasn't accusing you of having made such a statement. My apologies for that.I was referring to what the Norwegian doctor was saying and more than a few posters on this site. I've been following Cernig's posts over at Newshoggers daily and I agree with him that the Israeli operation is not,in any sense, a proportional response to the Qassam attacks but I have yet to see any evidence that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians. Trust me on this: I've been looking. (Parenthetically, to some people who might be following this exchange: this is how adults talk) My regards Nicole
"Hamas has called for the destruction of every Israeli while Israel has not sought the destruction of every Palestinian." Hamas rescinded that policy years ago. Hamas' now recognizes Israel's right to exist but within the pre-1967 war boundaries.
"I do not offer this as a justification of the ongoing stupidity but I beg to point out that if Israel is actively targeting Palestinians civilians as Doctor Gilbert suggests, they are doing it very badly."
No, Israel in not "targetting" civilians but is, according to the Geneva Convention, using weapons that are not to be used where there is a concentration of civilians. These include white phosphorous (willy pete) and cluster bombs and 1-ton high-explosive bombs.
"Nothing will be accomplished by the Israeli incursion into Gaza except possibly they may so damage Hamas that the next truce will last a few months longer until the next round begins."
The point of all this is that because Israel has killed and maimed Gazans, including many civilians (your statement "the ratio of civilian deaths and injuries to Hamas killed and wounded is astoundingly low" is BS), Israel will be seen by the Palestinians, especially those in Gaza, as terrorists.
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." Mahatma Gandhi
gaza only...not the west bank authority
and when they werent killing or shooting at israelis, hamas was busy systematically killing their fatah brothers
so yes...there is a bad guy in this fight
as the majority in Palestine, not just Gaza.
After election, Israel and the US decided to not accept the will of the Palestinian people and provided money and arms to Fatah to overthrow Hamas. It backfired and Fatah ran off to the West Bank, leaving Hamas in Gaza.
So now Israel and the US have further weakened the Palestinians by dividing them further.
the U.S.
:(
this is becoming sickening
you allow constant lies and attacks from the other side
i am only pointing out a fact
[deleted--bye Uncle Joe.]
if you have to ban me for that...so be it
egypt has not allowed in aide from their side...yet not one article or comment about that...why not???
also, I've said it before, but I believe Mubarak is just an American sock puppet who, without American aid, would have been overthrown years ago. He ultimately knows who is master is.
is easily refuted. your abusive tone is also offensive. you can post your links about egypt. but are they bombing palestinians?
egypt allows the tunnels from gaza to operate, allowing food, hospital supplies, medicine, and yes weapons, to go in. while its true egypt has not taken down the blockades, they have turned a blind eye to the tunnels existence. this is one of the reasons israel has stepped up the bombing of suspected tunnel locations because egypt won't do anything about it. egypt doesn't want to see the palestinians in gaza starve to death.
There's something wrong with the world when an aid agency has to ask for body bags.
be able to supply. Oops, wrong side...
so, I guess according to some posters here who shall go unnamed, anyone not totally unconditionally supporting Israel is a racist, anti-semitic Jew hater. Talk about black and white thinking.
<[deleted--the no name-calling rule applies to everyone.]
According to Rasmussen Poll (from Glenn Greenwald) Republicans favor the Zionist Extermination of Palestinians by a margin of 7 to 3, whereas Democrats oppose it, by a margin of 5 to 3.
Unfortunately Democratic Leaders favor the Zionists Extermination of the Palestinians (much too profitable for the Anglo-American Arms Industry, you know).
What is a Concerned Democrat to do?
Depends on whether a 2-state solution is really viable.
In the runup to World War One the Brits promised the Jews of the World a homeland in Palestine if they would throw their support behind the British against the Germans, which they did.
The Brits ALSO promised the Arabs their own Pan-Arab Nation if they were to side with the British and rise up against the Ottoman Turks (allies of the Germans) - and they did.
When the Brits defeated the Germans and the Ottoman Turks they then double crossed the Arabs, giving the Zionists their promised homeland in Palestine.
And of course the Germans found it very easy to hate the Jews for their complicity in Germany's defeat by Britain and her allies. The Holocaust sent droves of Jews to Palestine, exacerbating the already tense situation between the Jews and the Palestinians.
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